Thanks for your last interesting article [Bhakta Geore]. You came up with some novel and effective ways to get all of us thinking about … thinking. Process thinking – something that many devotees are completely unfamiliar with. You are very fortunate to have the ability to think critically and apply solid logic. That, and your love for Srila Prabhupada, is what makes so many of your articles outstanding. I mean that, prabhu.
(Rocana dasa 12-19-2011)
Today upon Rocana dasa web site I found him in the below referenced article to be attempting to drain away two of my most loyal followers, Mahesh and Amar prabhus who along with Puranjana have been following me around since my e-mail was first posted up as a topic on another thread and I had written a response. While it is nice of Rocana dasa to point out what types of idiots make the most noise among the Rtviks I must protest that he did not also take away Putana dasa and Lady Chimp with so that then we might see some intelligent persons emerging into the discussion.
Within the following article posted up by Rocana dasa upon his website the Sampradaya Sun Rocana gives considerable press to what I have been talking about for the last several days and talking about them in relation to Rocana dasa own self.
A RITVIK SMOKESCREEN – Rocana dasa
Please refer to my Jan 12 & 13th postings on
Coincidence or I told you so?
To be fair to Rocana dasa he has never come out and directly told me that he intended to use the Sampradaya Sun as a means by which he could generate support and manipulate the GBC into giving him and honored place among them wherefrom he could begin initiating disciples upon his own behalf. Why would he have to state the obvious? Let him simply deny it now and he can change his mind later, or pay it no mind.
The point is that I would have no objection, except that it would have been nice of him to state his intentions to the contributors of his site on what he intended to dop witt the popularity and therefore power that his site generated as a person forum for his presentation of himself and his own philosophy.
That and one other thing.
Normally we would have no problem with any disciple of Srila Prabhupada who is following the four regs and chanting his or her rounds initiating upon their own behalfs in accordance with the permissions in the Nectar of Instruction quoted in the various places noted above. We might want to remind such persons however that by so doing they are going against Srila Prabhupada’s recommendations and ask them to be good enough to remind their prospective initiates of this before the deed is done, but in Rocana’s case I have an objection based upon his sectarian stance against the Rtviks and the fact that his own DOR avoids appraising the readers of the fact that Rocana has failed to support his major contention, which is that the Ritvik presentation is appasiddhantic:
Here is the last article that I submitted to the Sun which of course Rocana rejected.
TFO OR DOR, EITHER OR, OR ONE BUT NOT THE OTHER?
An indeterminate proposition can neither be verified nor refuted at the time that we initially encounter it, but there are very scientific processes by which it may be verified or refuted at some later date. This is the case with the proposition that the Rtviks have offered us. The problem that we are seeing upon either side of the issue is that those who are both arguing for or against its acceptance are too clouded by emotional issues to think clearly in regard to it.
Whether or not one is aware of the scientific methods by which such a proposition can be tested and chooses to employ them before accepting or rejecting what has been proposed to him or her is something that rarely comes up and understandably so. Thinking logically and reasoning clearly is not something that comes natural to us. I was all the way into my first year of college before I found a class that offered this science, something that must be learned and practiced as a discipline. The name of this class was Logic and it wasn’t even mandatory but was an elective.
When I entered the class on the first day I found it to be only half full and those who were there somewhat intimidated by what we were expecting, which in respect to the science of thinking clearly a complete unknown to us. We gave each other the Vulcan salute and then proceeded to go on to where none of us had gone before, to an endless frontier where every indeterminate proposition can be scientifically proven or rejected, but not at once of course.
Whether or not one will have the courage to admit to oneself that one has never even learned how to think correctly and clearly and that one may have accepted or rejected an indeterminate proposition such as the Rtviks have offered as being true or false before one could oneself actually employ the scientific processes by which such propositions can be proven or disproven, are difficult questions to ask of oneself especially but also of others, but yet if we are to be open and honest with each other and straightforward to those to whom we wish to present our cases to then we must admit that such questions strike to the matter of our seeming inability to discuss the matter and to prove our cases reasonably as brothers and sisters attempting to serve together at Srila Prabhupadas lotus feet rather than as sworn and bitter enemies.
Once this matter is settled the truth or falsity of the Rtvik proposition that Post Samadhi initiation is both bona fide and also something that Srila Prabhupada ordered us to accept into this Krsna consciousness movement following his physical disappearance can be examined and scrutinized by both sides of the issue working together.
Alright, maybe I am a dreamer but still from what the devotees tell me Srila Prabhupada said that the love of his disciples will be shown to him in how they work together cooperatively and there is no doubt in my mind that on both sides of this issue stand those who truly love Srila Prabhupada and thus it may not be such an impossible dream to dream at all.
Surprisingly though, what the Rtviks offer us is not a single proposition but one that has two parts, each of which may have a completely different answer. The first part of the proposition that the Rtviks have offered us concerns the type of initiatory system that they offer us itself, the type of initiatory system by which one can become a disciple of a spiritual master following his physical disappearance.
The second part of the proposition though based upon the acceptance of the first half of the propositions acceptance and its validity is independent of it, that second half being that even if such a system of post Samadhi is valid did Srila Prabhupada want for us to accept and incorporate it into our Krsna consciousness movement. Did he in fact order it?
Once the two halves of the proposition have been separated one can immediately examine them separately and by so doing one may immediately see that he need not even bother to go on to answer the second half of the proposition, that Srila Prabhupada ordered us to accept post Samadhi initiation if the first part of the proposition that post Samadhi initiation is valid has already been disproven for Srila Prabhupada would never ask us and would certainly never order us to accept a system of initiation that was completely bogus.
After reading both TFO by Krsnakant dasai and Rocana das’s DOR I have had to conclude that neither of the two opposing parties, that neither the Rtviks nor Rocana das have succeeded in proving or disproving whether or not Srila Prabhupada ordered the acceptance of Post Samadhi Initiation although at this time it seems to me that the argument still could go either way.
On the other hand since I first observed Srila Prabhupada’s validation of Christianity and its Rtvik like practice of post Samadhi initiation as being bona fide and productive of genuine disciples, in as much at least as the initiatory process itself was concerned with, I have never thought of post samadi initiation as being invalid.
In the light then of my acceptance of post Samadhi initiation as valid I am still open to the appearance of additional evidence in support of the Rtviks claims that Srila Prabhupada meant to incorporate this type of initiatory system into the Krsna consciousness movement.
On the other hand it is my opinion that Rocana das has absolutely failed to support his major contention, that which would invalidate the Rtvik proposition from the get go, before even having to raise the question as to whether or not Srila Prabhupada ordered us to accept post samadi initiation as part of Krsna consciousness.
Rocana das has completely failed to convince me in all the pages of DOR of the truth of his claim that post samadhi initiation is “asiddhantic” or bogus, and what completely astonished me was that it appeared to me that he didn’t even try, that he simply put forward this assertion expecting it to be able to ride in upon the coattails of his arguments against the Needless to sayacceptance of the second half of the Rtviks proposition.
George A. Smith
Rocana dasa DOR is a house of card, through his failure to substantiate his major contention that post samadhic initiation is apsiddhantic the whole thing collapses, regardless of whether or not TFO is as ever a good piece of rhetoric as anyone has ever come up with or not is irrelevant.
Rocana dasa has, to my mind deliberately tried to distract you from noticing this because he simply cannot substantiate his position that post samadhic initiation is apasisidhantic, he can’t because Srila Prabhupada accepted that it was viable and bona fide in respect to the Christians. It only takes a single exception to disprove an absolute assertion which is just what his claim that the Rtvik presentation is.
Unfortunately by presenting something that Srila Prabhupada considered to be valid as apsiddhantic Rocana now finds himself among those who are preaching against the acceptance of the validity of what Srila Prabhupada considered to be valid. In other words Rocana dasa himself has now become apsiddhantic.
Rocana dasa contention that the truth or falsity of the Rtviks position rests upon the rise or fall of TFO is a straw man article and even a consideration that the Rtviks have as not proven their case does not prove that what they believe in is false or can never be proven.
That is like saying that the absence of an elephant to your perceptual view proves that elephants don’t exist, and Srila Prabhupada has seen in Christianitys post samadhic initiatory system something that is very real. Rocana dasa position can then be compared to someone claiming that an elephant isn’t real because he has never seen one.
Personally I consider to be an adaptation to time, place and capacity, for here such elephants are not the exception but are indeed indigenous.