BY: VIDURA DASA
Aug 15, USA (PRABHUPADANUGA NEWS) — A common argument nowadays is whether or not one can take Diksa initiation from a spiritual master who is not physically present on the planet. Aside from the fact that such a restriction is completely non-existent in Srila Prabhupada’s books, supporters of that argument don’t seem to understand what exactly a Spiritual Master is. So before anything, let us first properly define the above key words being argued upon, which are:
– Diksa initiation
– Spiritual Master
– Physical presence
As our sole guide and basis of understanding such terms, we will be using His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada’s own words. He is, after all, the most relevant, being the most recent link in the disciplic succession. Statements from Srila Prabhupada will be in blue. Statements made up by myself in order to illustrate a point will be in pink/orange.
1) Diksa initiation:
“Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.”
C.c. Madhya, 4.111, purport
“In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Vishnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.”
C.C. Madhya, 9.61, purport
Supporting evidence:
“The chanting of Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamal Krishna, 19/8/68
“Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation.”
“The Search for the Divine”, Back To Godhead #49
So here we see that Diksa initiation is the receipt of transcendental knowledge. Thus far a safe statement to make would be: “One must receive transcendental knowledge from a bona fide spiritual master.” Let us now define our next term:
2) Spiritual Master:
“A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”
SP Letter to Malati, 28/5/68
“There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
C.C. Adi 1.35, purport
Supporting evidence:
“To serve master’s word is more important than to serve physically.”
SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77
“If you actually follow the words of Guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how can he be pleased?”
Morning Walk, 21/7/75, San Francisco
So thus far, a safe statement to make would be:“One must receive transcendental knowledge from [following] the (a) bona fide principle/instruction (spiritual master).
The term ‘physical presence’ actually starts to become redundant because if we could receive transcendental knowledge or Diksa from the instructions or spiritual master then automatically the need for the physical body is eliminated. Nevertheless, we will continue to define the term ‘physical presence’ and see what Srila Prabhupada has to say.
3) Physical presence:
“So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.”
Letter, 13/01/69, Los Angeles
“We are not separated actually. There are two – Vani or Vapuh – so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.“
Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70
Supporting evidence:
“…association with Krishna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.”
Elevation to Krishna Consciousness, chapter 4
“..one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.”
SB 3:31:48 purport
So since we see that Srila Prabhupada has equated ‘physical presence’ with vani or vibration, and not only equated but even prioritized, it would now be safe to say:
“One must receive transcendental knowledge (Diksa) from the vibrational presence (or physical presence) of [following] the principle/instruction (Spiritual Master).”
This statement is sort of redundant, and only emphasizes the fact that a physical body is not actually needed for the main purpose of Diksa.
In simpler terms we could say:
“One must receive transcendental knowledge from following the instruction of the Spiritual Master.”
Thus we have quotes such as:
“The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.”
S.B. 1.7.22, purport
“This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will no longer commit sinful activity […] He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then, the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation.”
C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport
I don’t think Srila Prabhupada could have been any clearer on the matter.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krishna.
AGTSP, PAMHO.
The problem is that those initiated by a ritvik ( paid priest) cannot accept this priest like a siksa guru. He accepts this ritvik like his god-brother by his lack of training.
Srila Prabhupada teaches us the process to accept a siksa guru:
(Nectar of Devotion, Eligibility for Spontaneous Devotional Service)
The ritvik vadi goes directly to the sisya of Srila Prabhupada but without the training of a bonafide spiritual master. In this regard Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says:
Of course, I am not at this state because for me this world is a place full of beautiful girls and I don’t know anything about the dukalayam of this temporary world or about the transcendental activities of Krishna and His friends in the spiritual realm, where they are enjoying eternal pastimes full of bliss. The training is necessary to live in the matrix of the spiritual world.
I always love to illuminate the people, I am an electrician!
Hare Krishna
The full quote from Elevation to Krishna Consciousness reads this way.
“There are two conceptions of presence – the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal…”
The different conceptions of presence are described as TWO conceptions and are not equal whatsover.
In Srila Jiva Goswami’s Bhakti Sandharba Anucceda 153 we find the process described on how we associate with Krishna and the Spiritual Master AFTER the disappearance, Aprakata, or unmanifested feature.
The two phases of presence are described as “manifest” or Prakata and “Unmanifest” Aprakata which are entirely different phases of presence and different ways to approach.
There are naturally different dynamics in the physical presence and vibrational presence in context to serving the Spiritual Master.
The concept of physical presence is temporary.
The concept of vibrational presence is eternal.
The “rittik”-representative of the Acharya is governed by the jurisdiction, control and appointment of the physical presence of the Spiritual Master as in the July 9th letter which is applied by the physical presence of the Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada.
Without His physical presence the July 9th letter would not exist. Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence is manifest throughout the July 9th letter, He appoints the “rittk”, He gives a list of eleven, He also signs the approved letter all with His physical involvement and physical presence.
There is nothing in the letter alluding to the time of Srila Prabhupada’s Absentia or how the “rittik” process can be applied to that time. Nor is there any information on how the “Rittik” process can carry on after Srila Prabhupada disappears. All the contents of the letter reveals is the “Rittik” process of presciption and description and no more.
Then trying to apply the same process of “Rittik” as it was applied in Vapuh, physical presence, to the different dynamic of Vani, eternal vibrational presence is philosophically incompatible.
The dynamics of the two different conceptions of presence mutually exclude the process of “rittvik” in Absentia due to how the disciples access, serve and associate with the Spiritual master in Absentia. Its a completely different process to when He is physically present. Thats why the “rittik” process was set up during His physical presence.
Srila Prabhupada was not universally accessible in His Vapuh, physical presence, but the dynamics change in Vani, vibrational presence.
Srila Jiva Goswami describes that process of association in His Aprakata (unmanifested) feature as “mantropasanamayi” or worship by chanting mantras and then leading on to “svarasiki” or direct relish of rasa (relationship) which leads to direct perception of either Krishna through His Holy Name or The Spiritual master through His words and worship.
“Rittik” has no part to play in the unmanifested feature of the eternal presence of the Spiritual Master, “rittik” is only confined to the Vapuh, physical presence of the Spiritual Master, otherwise its a philosophical pardigm and impossibility.
Your servant in the service of our Spiritual master, dusyanta dasa.
When we come to the platform of realization that Srila Prabhupada is fully present in his function as spiritual master, that there is no difference whatsoever between 1966-1977 and now, things become easy to understand.
Everything goes on as ordered by Prabhupada, devotees are trained by senior devotees and when someone completes the training he/she is qualified to become initiated. Prabhupada wrote so many letters, “following the four rules and regulations, rising early, associating with devotees, like that..”
In fact, Prabhupada wrote that in all letters when he sent the spiritual names of new devotees who were about to get initiated. Not that there was a special devotee appointed to give siksa. Prabhupada said, read my books, everything is in my books.
“Paid ritviks”, Prabhupada never said that his disciples should be paid. He said they should be spiritually strong and not fall down. And when a devotee is spiritually advanced, naturally people want to listen and pay respect.
Not that a facade has to be put up who is an enlightened devotee. A new devotee who received initiation wanted to see that this devotee who performed the initiation ceremony was a powerful Vaishnava and learned brahmana.
Nobody wanted to hear that this devotee left after a couple of months. In sum, same like today, what is the difference? The only thing that is different is there are two groups, one group believes Prabhupada is dead and gone, the other group believes he is present like before.
Just like Christians believe Jesus is fully present and heathens believe this is humbug. So these groups will be always there. However in our case, Prabhupada clearly said that he is fully present in his books, don’t change anything. If you don’t believe then Prabhupada is not your guru, it’s simple as that.
@ DUSYANTA DASA
In reply; your statements which are dubious are in UPPER CASE with comment following.
I can accept what you write until:
DUSYANTA DASA: “THERE IS NOTHING IN THE LETTER ALLUDING TO THE TIME OF SRILA PRABHUPADA’S ABSENTIA OR HOW THE “RITTIK” PROCESS CAN BE APPLIED TO THAT TIME.”
Some points to consider:
The July 9th letter is not just a letter but a DOCUMENT:
“ … enclosing herein two documents:
1) Srila Prabhupada’s final version of his last will, and
2) Srila Prabhupada’s initial list of disciples appointed to perform initiations for His Divine Grace.” (Letter from Ramesvara to all GBC’s)
Please note how Ramesvara regards the July 9th directive as a document on par with the Will. Also Srila Prabhupada specifically countersigned it, giving two signatures, which again is what is expected in a document as opposed to just a personal letter. This is significant because other letters that H.H. Tamala Krishna Maharaja sent out which Srila Prabhupada had dictated. Srila Prabhupada saw no need to authorise through his signature. Yet with the July 9th directive he made a special point of ‘approving’.
The directive makes reference to an earlier meeting: “Recently when all of the GBC members with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint …”
Thus the directive is the output of that meeting, being the following recommendation:
“After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.” (May 28th, 1977)
In that meeting on May 28th 1977 the question of “initiations in the future” was raised.
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.”
So the July 9th directive is Prabhupada’s final reply to this question raised by Satsvarupa on May 28th, 1977. The time frame given in the document is ‘henceforward’. The specific word used, ‘henceforward’, only has one meaning, – ‘from now onwards’. Thus includes present and future.
There were other statements made by Srila Prabhupada, and his secretary, in the days following the July 9th letter, which clearly indicate that the ritvik (“rittik”) system was intended to continue without cessation:
“…the process for initiation to be followed in the future.” (July 11th )
“…continue to become ritvik and act on my charge.” (July 19th )
“…continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.” (July 31th)
In these statements we find words such as ‘continue’ and ‘future’ which along with the word ‘henceforward’ all point to the permanency of the ritvik system. There is no statement from Srila Prabhupada that even hints that this system was to terminate on his departure.
DUSYANTA DASA: NOR IS THERE ANY INFORMATION ON HOW THE “RITTIK” PROCESS CAN CARRY ON AFTER SRILA PRABHUPADA DISAPPEARS.
Since the process was already functioning, the ritvik system was not something new. It was merely the continuation of what Srila Prabhupada had taught and put in practice as soon as his movement reached a state of rapid growth. Prior to the July 9th letter, the experience of diksa initiation in the movement would have predominantly been through the use of representatives. Srila Prabhupada was the diksa guru in ISKCON, and most initiation ceremonies, particularly in the later years, were performed by a Temple President or some other priestly representative. The most notable difference after July 9th, 1977 was that the acceptance of new disciples would now be done by the representatives without recourse to Srila Prabhupada. The letter, which was sent out to new initiates, would no longer be signed by Srila Prabhupada, and the selection of all the initiates’ names would be done by the ritviks. Also the procedure was now linked with the relatively unfamiliar word – ‘ritvik’ (“rittik”) .
To get connected to the bona fide acarya through the use of representatives was already the experience of initiation that was familiar for thousands of disciples. It was simply to continue.
DUSYANTA DASA: ALL THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTER REVEALS IS THE “RITTIK” PROCESS OF PRESCIPTION AND DESCRIPTION AND NO MORE. THEN TRYING TO APPLY THE SAME PROCESS OF “RITTIK” AS IT WAS APPLIED IN VAPUH, PHYSICAL PRESENCE, TO THE DIFFERENT DYNAMIC OF VANI, ETERNAL VIBRATIONAL PRESENCE IS PHILOSOPHICALLY INCOMPATIBLE.
The July 9th directive is vani, prescribed during his vapuh, physical presence and that is what the directive describes. If there was some incompatibility why would Prabhupada indicate it’s continuity with words like ‘continue’ and ‘future’ which along with the word ‘henceforward’ all point to the permanency of the ritvik system?
DUSYANTA DASA: THE DYNAMICS OF THE TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTIONS OF PRESENCE MUTUALLY EXCLUDE THE PROCESS OF “RITTVIK” IN ABSENTIA DUE TO HOW THE DISCIPLES ACCESS, SERVE AND ASSOCIATE WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IN ABSENTIA. ITS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PROCESS TO WHEN HE IS PHYSICALLY PRESENT.
No, for the simple reason that many of his disciples never even physically met Prabhupada, when he was physically present. Their service and association was in “Absentia” pre and post Prabhupada’s physical departure.
“There was no question of just walking up to Srila Prabhupada and talking to him, nor even of getting an appointment to see him. We could attend lectures and darsanas, but felt (and were) too insignificant to ask him a question, even in the public forum. We couldn’t even write to him, because we were told not to disturb him with letters. We were told simply to serve his mission and that would be our relationship with him. […] It appeared that we had never even really met, but we had. […] We hardly met on the material platform, but we certainly did on the spiritual platform. […] Some disciples of Srila Prabhupada never even saw him at all.”
(Bhakti Vikash Swami, “My Memories of Srila Prabhupada”)
Prabhupada himself says that “Physical presence is immaterial.” (Brahmananda 19/1/67)
DUSYANTA DASA: THATS WHY THE “RITTIK” PROCESS WAS SET UP DURING HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE. SRILA PRABHUPADA WAS NOT UNIVERSALLY ACCESSIBLE IN HIS VAPUH, PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BUT THE DYNAMICS CHANGE IN VANI, VIBRATIONAL PRESENCE.
The “dynamics” may change but such change is “immaterial” as, “The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent.” (SB 2.9.8.)
DUSYANTA DASA: SRILA JIVA GOSWAMI DESCRIBES THAT PROCESS OF ASSOCIATION IN HIS APRAKATA (UNMANIFESTED) FEATURE AS “MANTROPASANAMAYI” OR WORSHIP BY CHANTING MANTRAS AND THEN LEADING ON TO “SVARASIKI” OR DIRECT RELISH OF RASA (RELATIONSHIP) WHICH LEADS TO DIRECT PERCEPTION OF EITHER KRISHNA THROUGH HIS HOLY NAME OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER THROUGH HIS WORDS AND WORSHIP.
Your pramANa (evidence, proof) presented in your post can only be considered as anumAna (reason). Not as Sabda (authoritative testimony) because your pramANa is not from Prabhupada’s vANI. Presenting anumAna as Sabda results in pramAda (misunderstanding of reality).
Since Srila Jiva Gosvami did not write in English you are thus using a translation by some Tom, Dick or Harry which can only be anumAna, at best.
“And if you have seen Dr. Radhakrishnan’s translation of Bhagavad-gita, he says, “It is not to Krsna.” Krsna says directly that man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. He says, “Not to Krsna.” You’ll see. So this defect will be there, unless one is sadacara-sampanna-vaisnava, self-realized.” (Bhagavad-gita 2.26 — Hyderabad, November 30, 1972)
As Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are not ‘deficient’ in any area of spiritual life. It seems that since you failed in previous posts to establish your “Absentia” brainstorm on the basis of Prabhupada’s teachings. You are now trying from outside Prabhupada’s books.
“It is good to hold more classes with the bhaktas, but they should all be on the basis of our books. You should not go beyond the jurisdiction of our teaching.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 26/1/1977)
It is understandable why Prabhupada suggested that such behaviour “may be detrimental”.
“There is no need by any of my disciples to read any books besides my books – in fact, such reading may be detrimental to their advancement in Krishna Consciousness.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 20/1/1972)
DUSYANTA DASA: “RITTIK” HAS NO PART TO PLAY IN THE UNMANIFESTED FEATURE OF THE ETERNAL PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER,
“Detrimental” (see above) was perhaps an understatement.
DUSYANTA DASA: “RITTIK” IS ONLY CONFINED TO THE VAPUH, PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, OTHERWISE ITS A PHILOSOPHICAL PARDIGM AND IMPOSSIBILITY.
Impossible? ” “impossible” is a word found in fool’s dictionary.” (Morning Walk — June 27, 1975, Los Angeles)
If what you say is true then why the following?
“Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.” – July 9th, 1977
(Srila Prabhupada’s final signed Directive describing the initiation system to be followed in ISKCON, sent to all GBC’s and Temple Presidents)
“A letter has been sent to all the Temple Presidents and GBC which you should be receiving soon describing the process for initiation to be followed in the future. Srila Prabhupada has appointed thus far eleven representatives who will initiate new devotees on His behalf.” – July 11th, 1977
(Letter from Tamala Krishna Goswami to Kirtanananda describing the above system)
“Make your own field and continue to be ritvik and act on my charge.” – July 19th, 1977
(Room Conversation, above dictated by Srila Prabhupada to his secretary Tamala Krishna Goswami)
“Make your own field and continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.” – July 31st, 1977
(Above dictation sent out to Hamsaduta Swami by Tamala Krishna Goswami in a letter)
“The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.” – Nov 1977
(Srila Prabhupada’s Last Will and Testament, for the lifetime of ISKCON)
“In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple …” – Nov 1977
(Srila Prabhupada’s Last Will and Testament. The above system of selecting directors can only work if Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples exist throughout ISKCON’s lifetime.)
Hare Krsna.
Thanx for your replies.
1. Your answer still did not change the point i made that within the july9th letter there is no mention of Absentia or how the “rittik” process could continue in Absentia.
The line you referred to in the July9th letter does not mean that the 28th may conversation is the point being dealt with ,thats just your opinion.Are you a tom dick or harry?
The 28th May conversation also has to be taken as a whole not just a small quote from it otherwise its easy to distort the whole meaning and its possible to prove opposing conclusions like that.So i dont accept your opinion that the May 28th conversation is necessarily referred to in the second sentence of July 9th document.And also the conclusion of may 28th conversation is also dubious because there are so many different transcripts of it and it has been tampered with.
2. Yes you by-passed that one too.The word you used “continue” is also not in the july 9th letter,document.And because it was the “experience” of initiates does not mean anything either,thats just conditioning.
3. No the july 9th letter is not vani thats a mistake that you are making. Vani means transcendental sound presence in the unmanifested feature of Aprakata ,which is eternal,without beginning and without end.The july 9th letter,document is not an eternal instruction based on transcendental sound vibrational presence it is temporary because it will end in Guru-parampara.
4. No to you. When Srila Prabhupada was physically present the devotees were serving Srila Prabhupada in His Vapuh whether they met Him or not because He was physically present.The service was not in Absentia as you incorrectly assert,it was in physical presence,Vapuh.Srila Prabhupada was present in His Vapuh during all the representative Initiations and the disciples knew He was physically present on the planet simultaneously. Your point is incorrect big time.Your quote is inapplicable because it is a conditional quote.
5. Yes the dynamics are changed absolutely.The presence of the Spiritual master and Krsna are described as two not one.In Elevation to Krsna Consciousness pages 56-57.The point you make is inapplicable to the way the disciple accesses and associates with the Spiritual Master in the two different phases and feature of presence, Vani and Vapuh.Just from a practical point of view there are many changes that are not “immaterial”.
6. That old chesnut.So you have not really tackled the point but just by-passed Srila Jiva Goswami’s Bhakti Sandharba.Quoted from Living Still In Sound .
So how do you approach Krsna now He is Aprakata,unmanifested?is it not throuigh His Holy name through “mantropasanamayi” to reach the point of “svarasiki” relish of rasa or do you have another process?
You just bluff.You dont have a clue what you are talking about.
7. Unanswered again.Dont just try to character assassinate,thats stupid,deal with the point directly,head on not in some kind of by-pass.
8. Your points again are inapplicable to the “rittik” process being applied to the Spiritual Master’s presence in His unmanifest feature of Aprakata.Its easy being Srila Prabhupada’s disciple without a “rittik” process being in place.The “rittik” process is just for “ceremonial-diksa” not for becoming Srila Prabhupada’s disicple.You have mixed up two seperate processes.
You are just exclusively applying your idea on how to become Srila Prabhupada’s disciple as if it is axiomatically the only way.Of course we can all become Srila Prabhupada’s disciple throughout the existence of Iskcon but we dont need a”rittik” process for that,thats just your idea.And there are different routes for becoming a disicple as well as through the Diksa process.You are omitting half the process in your conclusion.
pamho agtACBSP
vani | vapu
First of all we need to become conscious of that. SRILA PRABHUPADA is still doing HIS sankirtan revolution through HIS books!
A lot of disciples never saw SRILA PRABHUPADA – they got diksa by letter.
On many occasions, Srila Prabhupada has delegated a disciple’s initiation into the chanting of the gayatri mantra to a priest, via an instruction paper and a magnetic cassette tape.
Thus, since it is not a fact that “the guru must personally speak the mantra (gayatri) into the ear of the disciple at the time of initiation”, it is not a fact that the guru, “obviously has to be ‘physically present’”.
Indeed, Srila Prabhupada teaches the opposite:
“Physical presence is immaterial.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 19/1/67)
“Physical presence is not important.”
(Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 6/10/77)
“Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration, not physical presence”
(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, BBT 1973, p. 57)
“As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 30/6/74)
ys seva das
haribol
Hare Krsna. Thanking you for your replies.
The process of “ceremonial-diksa” that you have described as receiving Diksa is an entirely seperate process.
To become Srila Prabhupada’s disciple means to follow His instruction and His process.
Yes the via medium process is the “rittik” process of representation which was followed during Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence in His manifest feature in vapuh.
So we can see two seperate processes at work.During Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence there was the “rittik” representative process which is a via medium process but in the Spiritual Master’s unmanifested presence ,vibrational presence which is eternal there is no need of representation to approach Him.Its a direct process by the disciple through chanting mantras just as we approach Krsna direclty through chanting His holy Name and then relishing rasa,relatiuonship with Him.
There are two seperate processes.One is the “rittik” process whilst the Spiritual master is physically present and when He is vibrationally present after He has disappeared then the process is changed to worship and service through vibrational presence.
Adi Lila 1.19.
“the Gaudiya Vaisnavas who strictly follow in the line of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu worship the Divinity by chanting transcendental sounds meant to develop a sense of one’s transcendental relationship with the Supreme Lord,a reciprocation of mellows(rasas) of mutual affection,and, ultimately the achievment of the desired success in loving service…….” Chaitanya Charitamrta Adi Lila 1.19.
your servant in the service of our spiritual Master ,Dusyanta dasa.
This quote from Cc is also for “July9th” person who did not like my quote from Srila Jiva Goswami which is exactly the same meaning as this quote from Srila Prabhupada.ys.Dd.
Hare Krsna.
Yes i like your quotes but its easy to misapply them.For example your quote from Srila Prabhupada that reads “Physical presence is immaterial”
and “Not important” have to be understood in context.
Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence was not inconsequential.And the consequences of Srila Prabhupad’s physical presence,Vapuh, are multifarious.The Vapuh is a bona fide presence of the Spiritual Master and cannot be dismissed as much as Vani is important.
Iskcon was borne out of Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence and so were His Books and His many preaching programs He established.Even the “rittik” -representative of the Acharya was borne from His Vapuh and His physical involvement and we find much input from Srila Prabhupad’s Vapuh.
If you missed His Vapuh then all is not lost because the Gaudiya Vaisnava’s worship the Divinity by chanting transcendental sounds that are meant to develop a sense of ones transcendental relationship with the Supreme Lord,a reciprocation of mellows(rasas) of mutual affection, and ,ultimately the achievement of the desired success in loving service.
Quoted from Adi Lila 1.19.
If we apply this process of the Gaudiya vaisnava’s to approaching Srila Prabhupada through transcendental sounds eventually a sense of relationship is established mutually and reciprocated to the point of loving service.This is a direct process of approaching just as Lord Chaitanya has advised us all in His Sri Sri shiksastaka stanza 2.And i just quote the relevant part but read it all.
“…………O my Lord ,out of kindness,You enable us to easily approach You by Your Holy Name,but i am so unfortunate that i have no attraction for them.”
The process is a direct process of approaching Krsna through transcendental sound vibration that has been enabled by Krsna Himself.We chant His Holy name to associate with Him directly and to enjoy the rasa of relationship.And this process is also applicable to the Spiritual Master as confirmed in the quote from Elevation to Krsna Consciousness pages 56-57,which is also clearly explained in S.Bhagavatam 3.9.11 which i hope you have access to.We can apply the process equally to Krsna and His Bona Fide via medium Spiritual master,Srila Prabhupada.
In this process that is described there is no “Rittik” required to be the via medium to the Spiritual master in His Unmanifest (Aprakata) feature through Vani,transcendental sound.This is the Gaudiya Vaisnava way.
your servant in the service of our Spiritual Master,
Dusyanta dasa.
Where does Prabhupada say;
“In this process that is described there is no “Rittik” required to be the via medium to the Spiritual master in His Unmanifest (Aprakata) feature through Vani,transcendental sound.”
Sorry you still don’t make any sense.
Back up your via medium claim.
Obviously Srila Prabhupada does not say this statement in these words.Just like He did not say the “rittik” process was to carry on after He disappeared.
What happens is a devotee reads Srila Prabhupada’s books and makes an assimilation of the instructions and formulates a conclusion based upon evidence.
Just like “The final order” has been put together by gathering substantiating and corrobarating evidence to make a paper/booklet called “The final order”.
so in this way please try to understand and follow;
The Spiritual master is a transparent via medium between the Lord and devotee.
S.Bhagavatam. 1.6 23 and can also be sourced in other quotes through Srila Prabhupada’s Books.
Next the Spiritual Master is a representative of Krsna. S.Bhagavatam 5.17.11 and this feature of being a representative is found again in B.Gita 10.3.
The Spiritual Master is a transparent via medium whom is a representative.
The “Rittik” is also a representative which means the “Rittik” speaks and acts on behalf of Srila Prabhupada-definition of representative applied to the process outlined,prescribed and descibed in July 9th letter.
The word “representative ” is used seven times in the letter.
The “rittik” is a representative of the Acharya,Srila Prabhupada to act and speak on behalf ofPrabhupada for the purpose of performing initiations and accepting the devotee as an Initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name,or in the case of second initiation,by chanting on the gayatri thread,just as Srila Prabhupada has done.(Note a woman recipient of this would not receive a thread but just the mantra from the Temple Preseident at the fire sacrifice) .
This aforementioned process is a via medium process for the purpose of accepting Initiates on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.
It is a via medium process because if the process was not existing then it would not function,by its very existence the functionality og the process makes it a via medium process through representation.
In exactly the same way that the Spiritual master is a via medium representative for the devotee to Krsna.Its a relationship representation.
The “rittik” is accepting the devotee as a disicple in relationship to Srila prabhupada.The “rittik” process has to be in place as given in the July 9th letter for it to function as it is under the jurisdiction and appointment and approved by Srila Prabhupada.
The next consideration is how does this process of via medium representation be applied to the two different conceptions of the Spiritual Master’s conception.
The first conception is physical conception-which is temporary and the second conception is vibrational-which is eternal.
Elevation to Krsna Consciousness,pages 57-58.
The “rittik” process was set up during the physical conception presence because the amount of Initiations had become so many that just one person could not maintain the number of Initiates being recommended by the Temple Presidents.
The reason for this is because the Spiritual Master in His Vapuh-physical presence is situated locally,in one place due to the temporary nature of physical presence.
The nature of Vani-vibrational presence is eternal so the access and association becomes universal
When we try to remember the Vani of Srila Prabhupada we will no longer feel seperation and we can touch the Spiritual Master immediately by sound vibration which is not possible by physical presence.We cant touch the physical presence of the Spiritual Master immediately through His Vapuh.
The representative via medium process of “rittik” can only be applicable to the physical presence conception of the Spiritual master for the pupose of Initiations.
The Vani-vibrational presence conception of the Spiritual master works on the principle of transcendental sound which we can immediately access universally and directly approach the Spiritual Master and develop our relationship as is the Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy.Adi Lila 1.19.purport.
The conclusion therefore can only be that when the Spiritual master is Absentia or has disappeared the only way He is accessible to associate and reciprocate with is through transcendental sound vibration directly and so the via medium process of representation is finished/void.
The “rittik” process as outlined in the July 9th letter can only be applied to the physical conceptional presence of the Spiritual Master not to His sound vibrational conceptual presence.
Therefore the process of accepting Initiates cant be through the “rittik” process as it was during the physical presence of the Spiritual Master.
What a kitri of speculations and mental meanderings.
1. “28th conversation is also dubious because there are so many different transcripts of it and it has been tampered with.”
Prove it “has been tampered with”.
2. “The word you used “continue” is also not in the july 9th letter,document.”
I never said it was.
Prove I said it.
3. You said, “Vani means transcendental sound presence in the unmanifested feature of Aprakata ,which is eternal,without beginning and without end.”
Prove it with even just 1 quote from Prabhupada’s vani.
[vani = words. (synonyms, Adi 16.94)]
4. Prove your rant about vapuh, with even just 1 quote from Prabhupada’s vani.
5. “The “rittik” process is just for “ceremonial-diksa” not for becoming Srila Prabhupada’s disicple.
Diksa is the process, the ritvik is a priest who performs the ceremonial aspects of diksa.
“You have mixed up two seperate processes.”
They are NOT separate processes.
Prove they are ” two seperate processes” , provide a quote, rather than a rant.
Prove I have mixed them up, provide some quotes.
6. This is by far your most ‘way out’ nonsense:
“…So we can see two seperate processes at work.During Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence there was the “rittik” representative process which is a via medium process but in the Spiritual Master’s unmanifested presence ,vibrational presence which is eternal there is no need of representation to approach Him.Its a direct process by the disciple through chanting mantras just as we approach Krsna direclty through chanting…”
So when Prabhupada was physically here we needed to approach him via a representative. But in his unmanifest lila we can now approach him directly … because he is no longer physically here …er!? ..what?!
Also, we can chant mantras in both stages.
Best if in future you prove your points with quotes from Prabhupada, rather than provide more speculative rants as you have done until now.
pamho agtACBSP yas tv atma ratir eva syat SRILA PRABHUPADA makes clear that the real transcendentalist is one who derives the highest pleasure within the self by chanting the holy name.
SRILA PRABHUPADA also says that all the answers are in the holy name for people who are serious.
There was a devotee in Villa Vrindavana, Florence, Bhakta Valerio who was chanting 40 rounds everyday. He didn’t know nothing about all these things like vani and vapu, he was not even initiated but attracted to chant the holy name with his simplicity and complete dependence on the Holy Name.
Prabhupada:
The decisive point Prabhupada then makes,
(Concluding Words of Sri Caitanya Caritamrita)
In other words, Prabhupada fully concentrated on vani to discharge the order of his spiritual master. And simply by doing this was connected to Krishna’s powerhouse.
Prabhupada: “Therefore our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has been formed to execute the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.”
(Concluding Words of Sri Caitanya Caritamrita)
Prabhupada highlights to take shelter of vani and in this way become become fully successful in spreading the Holy Name.
ys seva das haribol
pamho agtACBSP SRI KRSNA JAYANTI ki jai
In SRILA PRABHUPADA SIKSAMRITA, SRILA PRABHUPADA says everything regarding this matter mentioned above.
1966, when coming to the Bowery, Lower Eastside, Manhatten, SRILA PRABHUPADA had no choice but engaged the dirty to rectify the dirty.
Prabhupada created the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, which was signed, witnessed and notarized. This document created the GBC, and gave the exact direction as to how the GBC should act.
Importanly, the GBC is to be elected from the body of temple presidents. The Temple presidents were instructed to hold election every three years, and either re-elect existing GBC members, or elect new ones from a ballot of candidates chosen from the body of Temple Presidents.
Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis in the ‘direction of management’ is on managing temples, and not mentioning a change in guruship as confirmed in his letter in 1967 where he states that:
(Letter to Kirtanandana, 67-2-11)
The Ramakrishna mission achieves ‘this principle‘ that Srila Prabhupada wants to be followed in ISKCON through a ritvik system.
Although Bangalore represents a minority of ISKCON it is actually uniquely faithful to the direct written order of the Founder Acharya of ISKCON that the GBC be elected representatives of the temples, not unaccountable dictators with despotic powers.
Our actual business is to find out our relationship with SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA, catch it wherever it is available says SRILA RUPA GOSVAMI.
We are already connected with the acharyas by following the exact orders of SRILA PRABHUPADA.
We just started Krishna consciousness, we do not have any Vaishnava family background – we didn’t prepare ourselves to take birth in a learned Vaishnava family as our beloved acharya therefore we need to clean the heart by keeping chanting on this day of devotion SRI KRSNA JANMASTHAMI KI JAI
ys seva das
haribol
@ dusyanta dasa
on 22. August 2011 at 8:43 pm said:
“Obviously Srila Prabhupada does not say this statement in these words.”
That’s because you are misunderstanding his intentions. All his disciples were in that respect, via mediums to Prabhupada. But non-essential via mediums, that is why he never mentioned it as such. People desiring his association, his vani, could do so via Prabhupada’s books. The essential via medium.
dusyanta dasa: “Just like He did not say the “rittik” process was to carry on after He disappeared.”
But he did “say”.
Satsvarupa Goswami: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted.”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).”
Tamal Krishna Goswami: “Is that called ritvik acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “ritvik. Yes.” (May 28th 1977)
I have the tape and he does say as stated above. Then he puts it in writing on July 9th, 1977.
“The discussions that took place on 28th May 1977 between Srila Prabhupada and some GBC regarding initiations in the future were not known to me till years after his disappearance. Srila Prabhupada would say many things on many subjects, but unless a particular policy was written in letter form, or some other legal document, such discussions on different matters were not accepted as final. Prabhupada often said you can say anything, but do not put it in writing. Writing makes it legal.” (Hamsadutta’s letter to Harer Nama Dasa)
So I’ve just begun your post and immediately something is wrong.
“Just like a big pot of rice boiling, you can test. Take one grain of the rice and press it. If it is properly boiled, then you can understand the whole thing is boiled.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.4 — Vrndavana, October 26, 1976)
“Prabhupada gave the analogy that when cooking rice the cook need test only one grain to determine whether the whole pot of rice is done. Similarly, by talking with this one Russian youth, Prabhupada could tell that the Russian people were not satisfied in their so-called ideal land of Marxism.”
(Sats SPL 34: Jet-Age Parivrajakacarya)
“I firmly believe that from knowledge of a part of a thing, a valid inductive conclusion may be drawn about the whole thing. May I remind you, Vedasara, that your acarya Srila Prabhupada taught this very principle himself when he said that the test of a single grain of rice can prove whether the whole pot is cooked. You seem to only want to look at the whole pot, not at any one grain. Of course, any individual rice grain cannot be the whole pot. But that does not mean we should reject the testimony of a grain of rice about the whole pot. We should learn how to test the whole by induction from the single grain.”
(SAS 4 Suhotra Swami: A Discussion on the Means to Knowledge)
So, as one tests 1 grain of rice, I have tested your post and found fault. it is safe to conclude that the rest of your post is also full of such fault and not worth reading.
If it wasn’t to “carry on after He disappeared” provide proof (pramANa) of this. Shabda (authoritative testimony), your anumAna (reason) is unreasonable as I have repeatedly shown.
dusyanta dasa
on 19. August 2011 at 10:57 am said:
“And also the conclusion of may 28th conversation is also dubious because there are so many different transcripts of it and it has been tampered with.”
According to Nityananda dasa in his book, “SOMEONE HAS POISONED ME”:
“RESULTS OF TAPE ANALYSES FOR EDITS & TAMPERING:
CAE had obtained and repaired the original UHER cassette recorder upon which both tapes were thought to have been made. CAE experimented with all combinations of manual and electronic functions of the UHER and examined the results. The idea was to attempt to duplicate the dozen or so suspected “anomalies” identified on the two tapes, to determine as positively as possible if these were produced by tampering or editing, or through normal machine operations. However, most anomalies were fully reconciled as normal.
NO EVIDENCE OF TAMPERING OR EDITING WAS FOUND ON BOTH THE APPOINTMENT TAPE OR POISON TAPE.
Two of the six “anomalies” identified by Perle on the appointment tape (Perle’s exhibits 1 & 6) are simply lack of recognition of the tape “leader” at the start and the end of the tape. This could not have been ascertained by Perle unless he had the original tape, which he did not, but which Jack Mitchell confirmed with the BBT Archives, who examined their original tape. The other four anomalies appear to be stop-start points and nothing more.
None of the suspected anomalies that both Perle and CAE analyzed were in or near the vicinity of the critical, brief “appointment “conversation on side A.
The poison tape’s “anomalies,” such as a 3 second blank spot, sudden amplitude changes, spiked “ramps” and so on were mostly reconciled.
We now have renewed confidence in Srila Prabhupada’s taped recordings, something we no longer have with His books due to BBT “editing.” This should be some relief to the Bhaktivedanta Archives crew, now that extensive testing has found no tampering or editing to date on at least these two tapes.
However, there are some reservations about these conclusions. CAE found the May 28 tape was not recorded on Puru’s UHER cassette recorder, whereas the November 11 “poison” tape was recorded on the UHER.
But the May 28 tape was only found to have stop-start points and not the irregular types of apparent anomalies as did the poison tape. There are no suspicious areas on the appointment tape that could not be explained by CAE, and none were in the area of the critical “appointment” discussion.
Therefore, even though the May tape was probably recorded on the Sony and not the UHER, still we can be fairly sure of no editing.
Jack Mitchell, in a later phone consultation, noted that the certainty of no editing or tampering on the two tapes was about 80 – 85 %. The limitations could be overcome if the original Archives tapes were tested by the “fluid magnetic development” process.
Such a test does not negatively affect or damage the tape in any way. In this test, under 6X magnification, the magnetic signatures on the tape surface reveal “tank tracks” which would be broken by gaps every time the recorder was shut off for a “break.” On a copy, however, the tank tracks are always continuous. The original tape would thus be required for testing to be 100% sure that there was no editing or tampering. An absence of gaps at stop-start points on the original tape would be proof that the original was really a copy, and if editing had taken place, it would become known from studying the “tank tracks'” features.
Perhaps in the future the funds and original tape will be available for this kind of test. In an expanded investigation conducted with the support of the ISKCON leadership (is there any left?), this should be on top of the list of things to do. That last 15 to 20 % possibility should be checked out. The summary of all this business about wondering if the tapes are edited is:
*The two tapes tested are not edited, with about 80% certainty.
*There is no technical or forensic indication that the tapes were edited.
* Perle’s appointment tape analysis, stating “consistent with editing,” is now debunked and refuted. Perle was not informed as to the nature of the recordings and he cursorily concluded the stop-start routine to be an irregularity and evidence of tampering.
CAE clearly disproves this assumption in a thorough and first-class analysis, found in Appendix 3.”
If you don’t like the transcripts available, why don’t you make your own? That way you can’t complain about others.
Hare Krsna
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the sitemasters of this site in allowing open debate without prejudice,its unusual in Iskcon today,so i appeciate this facility.
Looks like our debate is coming to an end now July 9th person.
Thank you for that huge endeavour to try to authenticate the May 28th tape and conversation.You presented this may 28th conversation in a rebuttal to my assertion that Srila Prabhupada did not say the “rittik” process was to continue after His disappearance.
Most devotees that i know would not use this conversation as any evidence whatsoever for a number of reasons but you obviously believe this is strong evidence for your proof that Srila Prabhupada wanted the “rittik” process to continue.
In your assertion to this conversation you obviously align yourself with Satsvarupa Maharaja’s question concerning the future,”particularly at that time when you are no longer with us…..”.Other “rittiks” who have presented this evidence have highlighted these lines in the conversation and now you have presented the same evidence.
In your other assertions you have made during this time you have said that vani is words.In His Book Elevation to Krsna Consciousness Srila Prabhupada defines the presence of the Spiritual Master in two ways.One is His physical presence-Vapuh,temporary, and the other is His vibrational presence-Vani,eternal.
And we should give more stress to the sound vibration of the Spiritual Master-Vani,eternal.
So according to this presentation by Srila Prabhupada we find that the presence of the Spiritual Master is of two conceptions.Srila Prabhupada’s presentation is a Guru-Tattva principle.The truth about the Spiritual master and how He is present.
But according to your useage of presentationl evidence we find a contradictory paradigm that you fully support.The reason that you and other “rittiks” share the same fountainhead of evidence is due to your bewilderment ,lack of transparency and loss of integrity,then the influence of the impersonalistic and mayavadic views that you all share mean that the evidence you produce to support your conclusions is the same.This could have been a good quality but it means your conclusions are always wrong.
If we take a really close look at just the question that Satsvarupa Maharaja poses and the terminology he uses then alarm bells should be ringing in your head,between your ears.
The problem with the question really determines the type of answer.so take one more look at the question,which actually is not a question.
What is happening in this conversation can only be described as a monumental offence to Srila Prabhupada.It is only contemptuous,familiar and materially motivated,opening up the reality of the motivational diarhoea emanating from the questioners mouth.As the conversation progresses the reason the conversation is even taking place becomes self-evident.There is just a group of senior devotees who want power and adoration and worship themselves.So the answers from Srila Prabhupada who sees through all this materially motivated grunts,expertly,diligently and immediately creates a smokescreen of power like the proverbial carrot in front of the donkeys nose.And have they gone for it big time.
The problem is the question.”Particularly at the time when you are no longer with us.”
The presence of the Spiritual Master is Vapuh and Vani not NO LONGER WITH US.What a colossal mistake to make and have the nerve to voice it to the greatest Acharya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line.
When is Srila Prabhupada “No longer with us.”
Is Srila Prabhupada an ordinary living entity working out His karma.?
Or is He the same as Krsna,direclty Hari.An Avatar,a specially empowered Bona Fide Maha-Bhagavata.
So the question is from the peons and antlike senior devotees,”when are you not going to be around, we want to conduct Initiations thanks.And in a few months time we are going to replace you and be Uttama Adhikaris,Zonal Acharyas.Just like you,but we thought we might as well ask.”
Srila Prabhupada saw right through them just as we look through glass.He gave them exactly the answer they wanted and deserved.Just see them all jump into the Vyasasanas.
And then just a few years later after there had been no “rittik” Initiations whatsoever they all fell from devotioanl service.They were not even “Rittiks” what to speak of the process carrying on after Srila Prabhupada disappears.
There were no more appointees.
The “rittik” process is only a paper process not a process that works after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance.It cant work after His disappearance because of the Guru-Tattva principle of Vani presence that contradicts the Satsvarupa Maharaja question of the time in the future when you are no longer with us.
Srila Prabhupada is always with us.He’s present in His Murti,His Iskcon, His Vani.How can there be a time in the future ,particularly at the time when You are no longer with us.
If Srila Prabhupada is no longer with you then you are not a Gaudiya Vaisnava chanting transcendental sounds following strictly in the line of Mahaprabhu.Otherwise Srila Prabhupada never left us and He is eternally with us through His Vani forever.
The May 28th questions should be condemned and the supporters of that question should know better.
He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die
When thou are living still in sound,
The Vaisnavas die to live and living try
To spread a holy life around.
@ dusyanta dasa
In your latest disparaging post, you make the following point:
“…The presence of the Spiritual Master is Vapuh and Vani not NO LONGER WITH US.What a colossal mistake to make…”
As a rebuttal to the evidence provided in reply to your previous claim:
“Just like He did not say the “rittik” process was to carry on after He disappeared.”
To which I replied, “But he did “say” (vAcA). ”
So the May 28th conversation is Prabhupada’s sound vibration (vAcA) which fully answers your erroneous conclusion.
Due to your unyielding ignorance you refuse to accept this because of,
“the reality of the motivational diarhoea emanating from the questioners (Sats’s) mouth”
However we see the same diarhoea emanating from our computer monitors when we read your statements,
dusyanta dasa on 24. August 2011 at 11:41 am said:
“to my assertion that Srila Prabhupada did not say the “rittik” process was to continue after HIS DISAPPEARANCE.”
In the same post you proclaim: “…The presence of the Spiritual Master is Vapuh and Vani not NO LONGER WITH US.
Diarhoea is diarhoea, whither from Sat’s or from you.
All this “diarhoea” but no answer to my challenge;
“If it wasn’t to “carry on after He disappeared” provide proof (pramANa) of this.”
(btw; remember we are discussing the ceremonial aspects of the diksa process here)
Best you stick to milking the cows, I am sure you are capable of doing that.
Leave the philosophical debate to the brahmins (aka: ritviks).
Thanks July9th, nice summary and closing words!
For others, please don’t post anymore comments to this article. In case you want to discuss further points please use istagosthi@googlegroups.com. Since this article is originally from Vidura Das, he will be able to comment also.