BY: MADHU PANDIT DASA (ACBSP)
Aug 24, 2011 — BANGALORE, INDIA (SUN) — A Vyasapuja offering to His Divine Grace.
Dear Srila Prabhupada, please accept my most respectful, humble obeisances. All glories to Your Divine Grace!
Srila Prabhupada, Your Divine Grace have displayed so many exalted qualities during the years that you physically graced this world. In the midst of the most degraded age we live in, it is the good fortune of humanity to have been blessed with your transcendental wisdom. It is our greatest fortune that our lives have been touched by your divine mercy.
On this auspicious day I humbly wish to contemplate on one of the aspects of your transcendence that has greatly impacted me from the very first day I came in touch with you.
Your presentation of the purity of guru Tattva or the principle and surrender of a disciple to a Guru, who is a personal representation of such purity was most impressive. You uncompromisingly present the truth by severing the falsehood. You teach who the guru is by your personal example.
Whatever you teach is based on the highest tattva or principles of absolute truth. Hence, when you speak about bogus gurus, you include the entire gamut of gurus, both within and outside of Vaishnava sampradaya.
Generally one tends to think that you are referring to cheaters outside of the Vaishnava sampradaya. But in order to teach us deviations in our own sampradaya, you even point out specific examples of Vaishnavas posing as acaryas though not qualified.
But unfortunately this is one issue in your movement that had been and is being compromised repeatedly after your Samadhi eating into the purity of your transcendental mission.
We find your instructions playing a most unique role in understanding guruship, post1977. In order to gain a realistic perception of what happened in ISKCON after 1977, one has to go back in time and see things as they were then. In 1977, after your samadhi, and a few years thereafter, everyone understood without a doubt, that ‘guru’ is synonymous with ‘pure devotee’ i.e.
Guru never falls. Nobody in ISKCON even dreamt of a philosophy that accommodated the idea of a guru falling down. It was just not ISKCON’s philosophy then is an historical fact. In the following conversation you clarified that the acarya has to be a pure devotee and that the idea that he falls down to mode of passion is a concocted one.
Akshayananda: “I was recently told by one devotee that the acarya does not have to be a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: What?
Akshayananda: That the acarya does not have to be a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: Who is that rascal?
Akshayananda: Well, he said it. Who said it?
Prabhupada: Who said? Who is that rascal? The acarya does not require to be a pure devotee?
Akshayananda: He said it. Nitai said it. He said it in this context. He said that Lord Brahma is the acarya in the Brahma-sampradaya, but yet he is sometimes afflicted by passion. So therefore he is saying that it appears that the acarya does not have to be a pure devotee. So it does not seem right.
Prabhupada: So who is that rascal? I want to know who has said.
Akshayananda: Nitai. Nitai dasa.
Harikesa: Nitai said that?
Prabhupada: Who is Nitai dasa?
Harikesa: Our Nitai.
Akshayananda: Nitai.
Prabhupada: Oh, our Nitai? Oh.
Akshayananda: He said he couldn’t understand it, but he thought, he said that he thought…
Prabhupada: He manufactured his idea. Therefore he’s a rascal. Therefore he’s a rascal. Nitai has become an authority?
Akshayananda: No, actually he said that he thought…
Prabhupada: He thought something rascaldom, and he is expressing that. Therefore he is more rascal. These things are going on. As soon as he reads some books, he becomes an acarya, whatever rascal he may be.”
(Morning Walk — December 10, 1975, Vrindavana)
Many times new devotees, who enter the movement have raised a question to me; Prabhu, it is difficult to believe that such senior devotees who did so much service to Srila Prabhupada would actually deviate and fall for such ambition. This is easily understood from your own teachings about the ‘shajiya’ trap or pitfall that a practitioner of bhakti is prone to fall into if he one is not careful.
You said:
“Sahajiya means they take very easily. ‘I am…. Everything is all right. Now I am perfect.’ That is sahajiya.”
(Morning Walk — June 7, 1976, Los Angeles)
Historically, we have seen that Gaudiya Vaisnavism immediately after Lord Chaitanya’s times, had gone through a phase of degradation mainly because of deviation arising out of shallow and cheap understanding of the advanced tenets of Lord Chaitanya’s philosophy.
The phenomenon of sahajiya is the greatest danger that leads to deviation from the purity of original teachings. It is all about taking transcendental attainment cheaply.
It manifests as a disturbance in society in the form of unqualified persons imitating advanced and exalted standards, either because they are ambitious for cheap adoration or they genuinely believe they are advanced and elevated. Sahajiya is a common pitfall that the sampradaya falls into from time to time.
Taking shelter of the instructions of the spiritual master and strictly following them is the only way to stay on track since some of these sahajiya traps are very subtle and pass off easily as desire for expanding ones devotional service to ones Guru. It passes off so seamlessly and is impossible to detect as sahajiya, until after a period of time, disastrous results show up. Phalena parichayate.
Unfortunately after your departure, leaders of ISKCON fell prey to sahajiya traps. One, in 1978 and the other, in 1985. The first trap was immediately after your transcendental disappearance. Eleven leaders appointed by Your Divine Grace to initiate disciples on your behalf, declared themselves to be the next acaryas of ISKCON. These eleven were young both materially and spiritually, being in the movement for less than a decade.
In fact the leader among them, Tamal Krishna Maharaj acknowledged on December 3rd 1980 in a public meeting, “I can definitely say for myself, and for which I humbly beg forgiveness from everybody, that there was definitely some degree of trying to control(…) This is the conditioned nature and it came out in the highest position of all. ‘Guru, oh wonderful! Now I am guru, and there is only eleven of us.”
Thus, the case of these eleven is clearly a case of being grossly ambitious in taking a position that they were not qualified. They imitated Your Divine Grace in the manner of sahajiyas and initiated their own disciples. The resultant situation that followed such a sahajiya imitation of Your Divine Grace’s position is akin to what Your Divine Grace has said:
Prabhupada: “A patient is thinking, “How shall I dance when I become healthy?” First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that. You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. “When I will get rich, how I shall treat…. I shall…. Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this,” (laughter) and as soon as he kicked on the earthen pots, all broken. Then he, “Oh, then my…. All prospects have gone.” You know this story?
Tamala Krishna: What was in the pot?
Prabhupada: That…. A potter, potter boy, he had got some earthen pots selling. So he was dreaming, that “By selling this earthen pot, I’ll make so much profit. Then I shall purchase another batch, I shall make profit. In this way, I shall be millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife must be very obedient. Otherwise I shall kick.” So in this way, he kicked over the pots and (laughs) all of them broken.”
(Morning Walk — June 7, 1976, Los Angeles)
These eleven, being ambitious to become big acaryas, started initiating disciples on their own. The result of the imitation of Your Divine Grace is the sad history of ISKCON over years. The self made gurus, trapped in the clutches of illusion about themselves, have kicked and destroyed all the valuable (pots) assets of ISKCON and rendered it bankrupt both spiritually and materially. The disaster forced thousands to leave ISKCON, thus rendering the movement bereft of their valuable services.
When these self declared acaryas fell down one after the other, thousands of innocent ‘disciples’ were left shattered and spiritually abandoned. This is clearly nothing short of spiritual abuse of jivas. Everyone is familiar with the million dollar law suit that hundreds of materially abused children slapped on ISKCON leadership. Bigger law suits wait in the court of Yamaraja, for spiritual abuse of thousands of innocent souls who stepped into ISKCON to surrender to your lotus feet.
Calamity after calamity has befallen these sahajiyas, imitators of Your Divine Grace. These fall downs were not a merely accidental but were also steeped in deceit. All of these fallen self-made acaryas had become habituated to illicit activities for extended periods of time before they were finally exposed to the world.
On the one side they were pretending to be pure and receiving worship like pure devotees, as good as Krishna, and on the other side they were simultaneously involved in illicit activities behind closed doors.
“Just like Rupa Gosvami has given, sruti-smriti-puranadi-pancaratriki-vidhim vina, aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate [Brs. 1.2.101]. It is utpata, disturbance. If you do not follow the principles of sruti, smriti, purana, pancaratriki-vidhi…… Without following these principles, the so-called devotional service, Hari-bhakti, utpata, simply disturbance, simply a disturbance.”
(Lecture on The Nectar of Devotion – Vrindavana, November 1, 1972)
These sahajiya deviations among leaders in ISKCON, have created a great disturbance due to violation of the most important principle of devotional service. What is the principle that they violated? Their act of becoming gurus and accepting disciples without qualification and authorization.
By the year 1984-85, these fall downs had become an embarrassment to the whole movement. There was questioning and rebellion from the rank and file devotees against the then leadership by a 50-man committee, seeking reforms.
Ironically many members of the 50-man committee were philosophically bribed into becoming gurus themselves, that year. They, disregarded and ignored the clear direction/order on initiation given by Srila Prabhupada in black and white- explaining it off as ‘non- traditional’ and calling it a ‘lone document’.
However the glaring fact is that the direction was addressed to the entire GBC and all Temple Presidents. As if the spiritual master has to repeat himself over and over in order to convey himself.
This resulted in rampant multiplication of the cancer of sahajiya. Today there are more than hundred malignant tumors attacking the body of ISKCON.
Thousands of innocent souls seeking shelter of Your Divine Grace are misdirected into the faith that these persons are their personal gurus, to be revered and worshipped as per standards taught by you in the matter of perceiving and treating a bona fide guru by any sincere disciple.
Your Divine Grace did never taught of any kind of semi qualified bona fide guru with a lower standard of reverence and worship like once a year puja, etc. from the disciple.
Instead of addressing the root of the problem, which is disobedience of the order of the spiritual master, in 1985 the GBC fell into the next sahajiya trap. What exactly was the trap? They legalized their years of rationalization of fall down of gurus by changing the very philosophy. They conveniently accommodated the theory that bona fide gurus can fall down.
Today the ISKCON law book contains a chapter on fallen gurus, suspended gurus, when not to reject a fallen guru, rectification of gurus, reinstating fallen gurus after rectification, reinitiation, etc. This sahajiya theory has made a cheap mockery of our exalted parampara and made a laughing stock of the movement even to a common man. This is against everything that you taught about guru tattva. They have struck at the foundation of truth on which you so painstakingly built your transcendental movement.
Srila Prabhupada, you clearly taught that the guru must be a person in the category of Narada Muni.
“This is the process of initiation. The disciple must surrender to the spiritual master, the representative of Krishna. The spiritual master, being in the disciplic succession stemming from Narada Muni, is in the same category with Narada Muni. A person can be relieved from his sinful activity if he surrenders to the lotus feet of a person who actually represents Narada Muni.”
(Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 24.258 Purport)
Further you teach about the elevated position of the spiritual master:
“Such an acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krishna—that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krishna’s potency. Such a personality is krishnalingita-vigraha—that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna.
Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is the guru, or spiritual master, for the entire world, a devotee on the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura.”
(CC Madhya 25.9 Purport)
“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class…….. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Prithivim sa sishyat. This is the test of the guru.”
(CC Madhya 24.330 Purport)
You have clearly taught that to become a spiritual master one needs an order from his predecessor acarya. This rule of needing authorization to become a guru from the predecessor guru is the only protection against a misjudgment by oneself or other conditional souls as to the qualification of a soul for rendering such a grave service to the guru parampara. Assessment of conditioned souls or self assessment to qualify for that service, without a specific order, is a road guaranteed to lead to the sahajiya trap, even if it is well intended by some among them.
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksha-vidhana.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport)
And you have emphasized that unless authorized, one cannot become spiritual master.
“The spiritual master is the manifested representative of the Lord to help one achieve ultimate success. One who is not authorized by the Lord cannot become a spiritual master. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami is an authorized spiritual master, and thus he was inspired by the Lord to appear before Maharaja Parikshit and instruct him in the teachings of Srimad-Bhagavatam.”
(SB 1.19.36 Purport)
“Following the order of the bona fide spiritual master is the only duty of the disciple, and this completely faithful execution of the order of the bona fide spiritual master is the secret of success.”
(SB 2.9.8 Purport)
“The Lord’s order descends in disciplic succession through the bona fide spiritual master, and thus execution of the order of the bona fide spiritual master is factual control of the senses. Such execution of penance in full faith and sincerity made Brahmaji so powerful that he became the creator of the universe.”
(SB 2.9.8 Purport)
“The parampara system of disciplic succession is very important as a means of spiritual success. One becomes a mahat by the grace of his mahat spiritual master. If one takes shelter of the lotus feet of a great soul, there is every possibility of one’s also becoming a great soul.
When Maharaja Rahugana asked Jada Bharata about his wonderful achievement of spiritual success, he replied to the King that spiritual success is not possible simply by following the rituals of religion or simply by converting oneself into a sannyasi or offering sacrifices as recommended in the scriptures. These methods are undoubtedly helpful for spiritual realization, but the real effect is brought about by the grace of a mahatma.
In Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s eight stanzas of prayer to the spiritual master, it is clearly stated that simply by satisfying the spiritual master one can achieve the supreme success in life, and in spite of executing all ritualistic performances, if one cannot satisfy the spiritual master, one has no access to spiritual perfection.”
(SB 3.22.6 Purport)
“Sometimes the spiritual master is addressed as Prabhupada. Prabhu means “the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” and pada means “post.” According to Vaishnava philosophy, the spiritual master occupies the post of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or in other words he is the bona fide representative of the Supreme Lord.”
(SB 4.8.69 Purport)
Thus you have taught in very clear terms the qualifications of a bona fide spiritual master to whom one should surrender in order to advance in spiritual life and go back to Godhead. Undoubtedly he has to be a pure devotee and confidential servant of Krishna, one who is constantly embraced by Krishna and in the category of Narada Muni.
Who else can certify a person to be on this most exalted platform other than the predecessor Acarya? Thus the rule of ‘authorization’. Unless you have specifically authorized one or more, Your Divine Grace continue to be the current link in the parampara.
Their imitation having miserably failed for three decades, most of the self-made gurus of ISKCON have been humbled by kala to now state it is Your Divine Grace alone who takes everyone Back to Godhead, except one of the original eleven.
It took decades of debate and discussion for them to even concede that Your Divine Grace is the siksa guru for everyone in ISKCON. The fact that it took decades to accede to Your Divine Grace even your foremost siksha position in ISKCON alone goes to show how deep routed was and is disease that has crept into the movement of neglecting Your Divine Grace.
But having got addicted to the intoxication or rasa of jivas surrendering to them, they are unable to come out of the trap entirely and have now settled for a compromised position as unqualified small time gurus who are not pure devotees (pre-empting disciples from shocks of future fall downs). But Your Divine Grace has said:
“It is illegal to become a spiritual master if one is unable to deliver the disciple.”
(SB 2.8.7 Purport)
The self made gurus further reason that a spiritual master in flesh and blood is required to guide the disciple and therefore ‘out of necessity’ some have to become gurus. That such guidance from a guru in flesh and blood is not necessary and that ‘vani’, transcendental sound, is more important has been amply emphasized by Your Divine Grace, like in the conversation below:
Indian lady: “Is that the spiritual master still guiding after the death?
Prabhupada: “Yes, yes. Just like Krishna is guiding us, similarly, spiritual master will guide. We are being guided by Krishna, by the Bhagavad-gita. Although Krishna is not physically present, still, His book Bhagavad-gita is there. And that Bhagavad-gita is nondifferent from Krishna.”
(Lecture on HDG Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Appearance Day, London, September 23, 1969)
The very reason, Srila Prabhupada, you have mercifully set up the ISKCON institution with your transcendentally brilliant foresight, is to make this guidance available at all levels from different Vaisnavas who are servants of Your Divine Grace. This system of guidance or sadhu sangha worked during your physical presence. Most of the guidance for a devotee automatically comes from your books and the system you set up, with Vaisnavas delivering sadhu sangha.
Even at a practical level, none of these self-made gurus are really guiding the disciples on a day to day basis. Not even as much as others in the ISKCON institution like temple leaders, temple commanders etc are doing.
So who are these new entities called ‘gurus’ in ISKCON and what part are these self-made gurus playing when there was never such a functional requirement prior to 1977? Just a blind traditional ritual of having someone in flesh and blood to be called ‘guru.’ Just figure heads, doing nothing more than what Srila Prabhupada’s books and his institution are all ready. Just a group of imitators choking on their attempt of trying to be “as good as Krishna.”
The sastras point out that nobody can imitate Lord Shiva by drinking the ocean of poison, nor can anybody imitate Lord Krsna’s lifting of Govardhana Hill. By such audacity, these self-made gurus are in turn choking the institution with a parallel people management structure. Can these very persons not do what they are doing more honorably, without being initiating gurus and claiming disciples for themselves?
Your Divine Grace in fact exposes a type of guru exactly like the ones in ISKCON now. They are the ones who on their own initiative become spiritual masters i.e. self-made gurus.
“The spiritual master must never be carried away by an accumulation of wealth or a large number of followers. A bona fide spiritual master will never become like that. But sometimes, if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples.
This is not a very high grade of devotional service. If a person is carried away by such achievements, then his devotional service becomes slackened. One should therefore strictly adhere to the principles of disciplic succession.”
(Nectar of Devotion 14)
And a bona fide guru who follows the orders of his guru will never fall down.
“If one always follows the orders of the spiritual master, there is no question of falling down. As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. “
(SB 5.12.14 Purport)
The latest genre of gurus is the ‘humble’ guru. The fad among them now, is competing to become the ‘humbler guru.’ But guruship cannot be given up by them at any cost. They somehow want disciples. They don’t mind any guru reform as long as there are disciples. It is not just a guru disease but a ‘disciple disease’ – a disease, ranging from gross to subtle manifestation of usurping Your position and Your disciples in ISKCON.
Srila Prabhupada, you have already foreseen all these shams and have written about them. You have pointed out that these ‘humble gurus’ are also sahajiyas.
This kind of mind game is described by Your Divine Grace below:
“Actually a first-class reputation is due Madhavendra Puri because he was a most confidential devotee of the Lord. Sometimes a sahajiya presents himself as being void of desires for reputation (pratishtha) in order to become famous as a humble man. Such people cannot actually attain the platform of celebrated Vaishnavas.”
(CC Madhya 4.147 Purport)
Today more than 40 gurus have fallen down, majority of them being other than the first set of imitators. The results show that the so-called reform of 1985 is no reform at all but perpetration of the same disobedience and disturbance in the society.
Many keep falling down and a few new ones crop up every year. Countless souls have gone through the abuse as disciples of these self-made gurus, when these self-made gurus fall down. While the world does not tolerate any institution abusive of its members, we are pained to see what innocent souls experience in ISKCON today, by placing their spiritual faith simply to be abused again and again.
We pray at your lotus feet that this illusion be quickly broken by propagating the truth spoken by Your Divine Grace and that people who read your books and associate with ISKCON, understand Your Divine Grace as the current link and accept none other than Your Divine Grace as their spiritual master; and that these self-made gurus meet their destiny of one day having no takers of their philosophy.
Why should there be infighting in ISKCON? You Divine Grace has given an answer why this schism happens:
“This verse describes the beginning of a schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of accepting the order of their spiritual master, immediately there are two opinions. Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. There is no scope for adjusting spiritual advancement to material ideas.”
(CC Adi 12.9 Purport)
Today a guru falling down does not create a tremor as it did in 1980 when we heard that one of the eleven gurus had fallen down. The reason for the change in reaction is easily understood from the instructive parable used in Management:
If you place a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will immediately try to scramble out. (This is like the initial reaction when the first few of the eleven started falling down- many jumped out of ISKCON).
But if you place the frog in room temperature water, and don’t scare him, he will stay put. Now if the pot sits on a heat source, and if you gradually turn up the temperature, something very interesting happens.
As the temperature rises from 70 to 80 degrees, the frog will do nothing. As the temperature gradually increases, the frog will become groggier and groggier, until he is unable to climb out of the pot. Though there is nothing restraining him, the frog will just sit there. This is because the frog’s internal apparatus is geared to sudden changes, not to slow gradual changes.
ISKCON today can be compared to this. Over the last three decades, we have gradually got used to hearing of so many gurus’ fall downs. As an organization we have become incapable of doing something about it, just like the frog, oblivious of the fact that ISKCON has degraded to a sahajiya organization where guru has become really cheap.
We are abusing the most pristine position of guru. Sadly, we have become an organization different from the spiritual organization that you had founded and left behind. Even this you had foreseen, and warned us about the consequences of such deviations:
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has therefore advised us to avoid bhakti-siddhanta-viruddha and rasabhasa. In this way the devotee can remain pure and free from falldowns. Everyone should try to remain aloof from bhakti-siddhanta-viruddha and rasabhasa.”
(CC Madhya 10.113 Purport)
You further quote your Guru Maharaja cautioning about sahajiya:
Prabhupada: “Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he said that “When our men will be sahajiya, oh, they’ll be more dangerous.” So our men are becoming, some of them, sahajiyas. This very word he said, that “When our men will be sahajiyas he’ll be more dangerous.”
Room Conversation — January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
Prabhupada: These sahajiyas will come out of so many devotees. What can be done? From my Guru Maharaja’s disciples, so many sahajiyas came. These are called sahajiyas. Very easily they capture thing. So my Guru Maharaja used to say, “When my disciples will be sahajiya, it will be more dangerous.” He used to say like that. Take things very easily. You know that Purushottama, supposed to be my Godbrother?”
(Room Conversation — January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara)
This is your most important analysis on why the Gaudiya Matha failed:
“Why Caitanya Mahaprabhu says guru more murkha dekhi’ karila sasan? This is sahajiya-vada. He is thinking, “Oh I have become liberated. I don’t require any direction of my guru. I’m liberated.” Then he’s rascal. Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that “This man should be the next acarya.” But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, “Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?” They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Maharaja is dead, “Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru.” Then he’s finished.”
(Room Conversation —August 16, 1976, Bombay)
Unfortunately the very thing that you feared has happened in ISKCON after your disappearance.
“The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them.”
(Letter to Rupanuga — Tirupati, 28 April, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada, you are the seer of past, present and future. You have forewarned of all that was to happen in ISKCON. In your transcendental vani lie the answers for everything. Your transcendental instructions and association of likeminded sadhus are all that is required to go back to Godhead this very life as assured by Your Divine Grace. When the confidential mission of a pure devotee is being obviously disturbed, it is the duty of every disciple to do something to quell such disturbance. It is only in such a spirit of service to Your Divine Grace that, we devotees in Bangalore are engaged in vigorously propagating your instructions regarding initiation in ISKCON. It is not in the attitude of being ‘holier than thou’ meaning holier than other Vaishnavas in this world. I am ever grateful to Your Divine Grace for sheltering us so lovingly and protecting our devotional service in spite of always falling short of sufficient faith and devotion unto your lotus feet. Please bless me so that I can be worthy of being the servant of the servant of the most sincere and obedient disciples of Your Divine Grace. It is only by your causeless mercy that I am engaged in devotional service since I am not worthy of it and have no personal qualification to be engaged thus. I am eternally indebted to Your Divine Grace for your eternal shelter, kindness and continued flow of mercy.
Your fallen servant,
Madhu Pandit dasa
Thanks Madhu Pandit prabhu, you pinpointed it exactly!
Sahajiya has no theological sense about the impact upon people in general when irresponsible deviants create a huge graveyard of fallen gurus.
As newcomer in the West, Gaudiya-Vaishnavism with its many rules and regulations is immediately rejected and this is whats happening.
However, sahajiyas love to accept prakrita sahajiyas as guru. Basically two reasons, a) traditionally sahajiyas hate celibacy, b) sahajiyas hate to save the fallen conditioned souls, i.g. in our case, to distribute Prabhupada’s books.
By installing a neophyte sahajiya consistory and neophyte “spiritual masters” who are not even brahmana, the sahajiya class of so called Vaishnava is more than jubilant. Therefore all those who did not agree were kicked out of ISKCON.
Of course as Madhu Pandit prabhu highlights above, these are the most dangerous. As soon you try to expose such kind of deviation they come up with so called “sastrical evidence” to justify their mischief-making.
E.g., it took them 20 years to figure that folks like Harikes are not even brahma-bhuta, what to speak of guru, spiritual master.
How many years it will take from now on to get the Sankirtan movement back on deck or whether the whole thing is turned into a global Hindu welfare service for collecting funds, it is still written in the stars.
Dear Madhu Pandit Prabhu, Thanks for your continuous efforts to reestablish Srila Prabhupada’s position. So many of us are now saved.
Good oratory skills and extremely good command over English language. I can appreciate you for that in this essay. But still the major question remains unanswered : If someone falls down, how can we arrive at a conclusion that all Gurus are bogus? Also, how can you prove that Prabhupada has never instructed any of his disciples to become Gurus? You may say give me some evidence of some tape recording or something written. But you have not asked for any such evidence while proving that Prabhupada is a bonafide Guru.
Krishna dasa Prabhu, please read what Srila Prabhupada says ;
” “To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master,who initiates you, just as you have only one father.But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught.””(Letter to Sri Galim 11/20/71) ”
Also please read this article further here this link ;
http://www.bsanga.com/index.php/advanced-articles/100-ritvik-acarya-or-diksa-guru
Hope it helps you.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
Krishna dasa Prabhu, to answer your question further, also please read at this link carefully ;
http://www.bsanga.com/index.php/general-articles/102-mysteries-of-the-parampara
Hope it answer your question.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
Krishna dasa says: …how can we arrive at a conclusion that all Gurus are bogus? Also, how can you prove that Prabhupada has never instructed any of his disciples to become Gurus?
Even if Srila Prabhupada did instruct one or more of his disciples to become gurus in order to encourage them at some point, he obviously changed his mind in 1977 when he drafted the July 9th ISKCON management directive in the form of a signed letter to all temple presidents and GBC men. This was his final order on the subject.
Even without the July 9th letter, the following proves that all gurus other than Srila Prabhupada within ISKCON are bogus by Srila Prabhupada’s own definition of what a real guru is:
From http://www.pratyatosa.com/?P=27#ItsOffensiveToDisciplineARealGuru :
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
ISKCON’S conditioned soul bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus:
WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.
We don’t have to prove anything. If there is a bona fide pure devotee out there somewhere, identify who he is, and prove to us he is pure. Its not our job to prove that? How can we either prove or disprove if a person is pure or not, unless he is identified? ys pd
The article reminds me of milk touched by lips of a serpant. Most of the article was good, but at the end it was misdirected. It still fails to prove that just because some of Prabhupada’s disciples have fallen down, you all are extremely qualified to understand that all Gurus in ISKCON (even those who have not fallen) are not pure devotees without even hearing them. You yourself mentioned in the article that a spiritual master must be identified by hearing from him, but most of you hardly hear from ISKCON Gurus. How can you identify that they are bogus, without hearing from them? That means you are not following the bonafide process of hearing.
You say that Prabhupada has changed his mind in July 1977 all of a sudden (an action unthinkable about a pure devotee). Just like there is no proof of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura telling Prabhupada that he will become spiritual master, similarly there is not Proof that ISKCON Gurus will become spiritual master. So the process of material proof if accepted must be accepted for Prabhupada also. I know what you will say, “This Guru did illicit sex, this Guru did homosexuality, this guru did this, so this proves that all gurus are bogus”, not a logical argument.
And Mr Mahesh, Prabhupada also said “They are Granddisciple”, “They are disciple of my disciple” etc etc. In the same paper Jayadvaita swami has given hundreds of other facts, please stop this half chicken philosophy. That is an indication of the cheating propensity.
Puranjana prabhu, please come to temple and serve devotees and hear from them. This is the process told by Krishna, not our Gurus. Please come, we will prove it.
Krishna dasa says: You say that Prabhupada has changed his mind in July 1977 all of a sudden (an action unthinkable about a pure devotee).
So, according to you, a pure devotee isn’t allowed to change his mind? We are allowed to hold him hostage to what he has said in the past? This is a completely ridiculous, if not offensive, proposal.
Srila Prabhupada changed his mind many times. For example, he said that book distributors should dress as devotees, but when he was shown the superior book distribution totals of devotees distributing books wearing karmi clothes, he changed his mind.
If a pure devotee is not allowed to change his mind, then why did Srila Prabhupada say the following:
From http://pratyatosa.com/?P=27#FollowTheLatestOrder :
(From a lecture by Srila Prabhupada on the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Hyderabad, India, April 15, 1975)
Therefore, the quote that you mentioned from the May 28th conversation, when Srila Prabhupada might have felt intimidated by a huge group of overly ambitious madmen, does not apply, because it came prior to the July 9th letter, which obviously contradicts it. Besides, signed written documents always supersede casual conversations. Srila Prabhupada has said, “You can say anything; just don’t put it in writing.”
Krishna das : And Mr Mahesh, Prabhupada also said “They are Granddisciple”, “They are disciple of my disciple” etc etc.
Mahesh: There can NOT be a Granddisciple WITHOUT Srila Prabhupada giving his AUTHORISATION OF ACTUALLY NAMING THE INDIVIDUALS AS DISKA GURUS. 1977 in the SAME conversation Srila Prabhupada says WHEN I ORDER. There was NO ORDER they were selected ONLY as RITVIKS. Further confirmation is THE FACT Srila Prabhupada ORDER Ritviks July 9th 1977. Perhaps – you have been on a very long vacation and not been tuned to the following articles:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
Krishna das prabhu regards “granddisciples” please read the following:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
Dear Krishna dasa,
Hare Krishna, AGTSP.
I posted two very good link for you to read and get the answer you are questioning in your post. It looks like you have not read the link as yet.
To answer your query as cited by you ; ” ……. Just like there is no proof of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura telling Prabhupada that he will become spiritual master, similarly there is not Proof that ISKCON Gurus will become spiritual master ….. .” As you perhaps accept that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Goswami Maharaja is the Maha Bhagavata who knows very well amongst his disciples who are seriously advanced in cultivating KC. Had He identified pre-maturely Srila Prabhupada being the Maha bhagavata amongst his disciples, Srila Prabhupada would have not been able to carry forward the mission of His Guru Maharaja because of the strong enviousness for Labha, Puja and Prathistha etc. presence amongst his disciples who were desperately so desirous of WANNA BE GURU themselves. That is why Srila BSST did not identify Srila Prabhupada as the next canadidate who would lead the mission of Lord Chaitanya in every town and village of the world. Hope this answer your question.
Now that Srila Prabhupada has done so, so successfully the preaching all over the world and has given all the Instructions how to carry forward His movement for the next ten thousand years in the future, therefore, where is the need for another Spiritual Master in Iskcon to proof that ISKCON Gurus will become spiritual master …?????
You can not have TWO or more Spiritual Master presence in Iskcon because Srila Prabhupada being present in His Vani prohibits that.
Therefore, all these present so called gurus in the deviated Iskcon are bogus gurus. It is that simple.
Hope it meets you well.
Hari BOL.
YS……….. Amar Puri.
Right, BTP articles should be online for download. May be not exactly at the same time when BTP appears, but a little later.
As before, articles written on paper are more substantial than internet publication. There is of course a tendency right now to close down many newspapers because people find it sufficient to read news online. When it comes to books, majority of people still say, I want to read a real book. Position papers highlighting the most important thing, what is genuine guru-tattva require deliberate course of action. Krishnakant figures efficiency factor to have BTP printed on paper precedes online presentation. So far, in view of Back to Prabhupada magazine’s achievement, a decision we should recognize.
Most of the hundreds of links that Mahesh posted all echo only one thing – “Some Gurus fell down, so all Gurus are bogus”, not an intelligent conclusion. I can speak on some other links that don’t totally address this point. Regarding the statement “When I order”, it is an authoritative statement of Prabhupada and not a conditional statement. He gives that statement to show that he is the authority who is giving the order, so no one else can object it. This can be best understood only when heard from those who were present at the time when Prabhupada was present. So, again the argument still stands, that just as we accept Prabhupada as a bonafide link in the Parampara unquestionably, why can’t we claim the same for ISKCON Gurus? Why can’t it happen that Prabhupada has given some instructions directly to ISKCON Gurus?
I know what you will say, “This Guru did sex, that Guru did something else……”. That still doesn’t prove that all Gurus are bogus. If one Guru falls down, it doesn’t prove that all Gurus are bogus. You will repeat the same statements what you told before “Prabhupada set up an independent ISKCON world body”, “Prabhupada made more than 10000 disciples”, “Prabhupada wrote more than 50 books”, “Prabhupada traveled all around the world 14 times”, “Prabhupada made 108 temples”, all this proves that Prabhupada is the spiritual master. No Guru in ISKCON has done all these, so no Gurus in ISKCON are bonafide.
Dear friends, if that is the case Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaj didn’t write any books, he made only one disciple, he didn’t open any temple, I am not sure if he has traveled much even in India, still he is a great Maha Bhagavata spiritual master. Only another Maha Bhagavata was able to recognize him, when ordinary people would condemn him and some even called him a sahajiya. So one must associate with a spiritual master to identify him. So, still nothing is proved about ISKCON Gurus not being spiritual masters. Please present some arguments based on Sastras, Guru and Sadhu.
Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?
Indian man: No, I am just curious when…
Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much.
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, Nairobi, October 28, 1975
In above quote Prabhupada says you must be curious within your limit. “What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?”
Similarly why should his followers disclose you?
Thanks Krishna das for warranting that ISKCON’s present gurus are finally 100% bona fide and genuine!
After 43 falldowns this is twice-overdue that someone steps forward to clear all doubts. So all those rumors that there will be more victimized disciples in future are once and for all adjusted?
Of course someone who makes such claim will also assume liability in case there is damage – adjustment payment, compensatory payment. Otherwise, what’s the use of making such claim in consideration what happened so far? So far thousands of betrayed devotees were told GBC assumes no liability for loss or damage.
Again thanks for stepping forward and underwriting that you take full responsibility for all present ISKCON gurus – fully comprehensive insurance package so to speak.
So lets hope and pray that finally this epidemic problem of ISKCON gurus unable to burn the karmas of their disciples is off the stove.
Only problem that remains, there are many countries still suffering terribly due ten and more falldowns of ISKCON gurus. Is there something like a bailout rescue package to have those crisis regions reconstructed? Lack of confidence, loss of trust taken care of? Thanks for any written agreement!
Krishna dasa:
Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much.
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, Nairobi, October 28, 1975
In above quote Prabhupada says you must be curious within your limit. “What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?”
Similarly why should his followers disclose you?
Mahesh: When one can lift the Govardhan with his little finger then you can claim you are Krsna SIMILARLY when you can do what Srila Prabhupada did ALL OVER THE WORLD then you can say “And why shall I disclose to you?”
DON’T IMITATE SRILA PRABHUPADA.
The conditioned soul BABOONS posing as Diksa gurus are NO COMPARISION to Srila Prabhupada’s stature of ACARYA:
Madhya 25.9 How All the Residents of Varanasi Became Vaisnavas
“In Dvapara-yuga, devotees of Lord Visnu and Krsna rendered devotional service according to the principles of pancaratrika. In this Age of Kali, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped simply by the chanting of His holy names.» Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: “Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, no human being can become the spiritual master of the whole world. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna’s effulgence throughout the world. Such an acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna-that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna’s potency. Such a personality is krsnalingita-vigraha-that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is the guru or spiritual master for the entire world, a devotee on the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura.”
The other point is why is Krishna das not QUOTING his conditioned soul Baboons he is so fond of advertising? If his conditioned soul Baboons were QUALIFED MAHA-BHAGAVATA then it follows Krsna SPEAKS THRU THEM – their words would be SASTRA. WHY NOBODY QUOTES THEM?
Krishna das:
Only another Maha Bhagavata was able to recognize him, when ordinary people would condemn him and some even called him a sahajiya. So one must associate with a spiritual master to identify him. So, still nothing is proved about ISKCON Gurus not being spiritual masters. Please present some arguments based on Sastras, Guru and Sadhu.
Mahesh: We do NOT need to associate with unholy conditioned soul Baboons to identify them. Neither is it a requirement to be a Maha Bhagavata to recognise what is conditioned soul Baboon posing as Diksa guru. TO BE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO DISTINGUISH is good for us:
NoI 5
In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee TO BE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO DISTINGUISH between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA HAS GIVEN SOME PRACTICAL HINTS TO THE EFFECT THAT AN UTTAMA-ADHIKARI VAISNAVA CAN BE RECOGNIZED BY HIS ABILITY TO CONVERT MANY FALLEN SOULS TO VAISNAVISM. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
Krishna das you should know that Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaja is ACCEPTED by Srila Prabhupada THAT is good enough for us. Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji can NOT be compared to the wanna be BABOONS posing as DIKSA guru in ISKCON. Wannabe Diksa guru conditioned soul Baboons are NOT ACCEPTED by Srila Prabhupada – PERIOD. There was NO ORDER. NO AUTHORISATION:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
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Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
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Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
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Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
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Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
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He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
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The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
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Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
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Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
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Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
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Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
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Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
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We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth
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Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
Krishna das: So one must associate with a spiritual master to identify him. So, still nothing is proved about ISKCON Gurus not being spiritual masters. Please present some arguments based on Sastras, Guru and Sadhu.
Mahesh: We do not require to physically associate with conditioned soul Baboons posing as Diksa guru in ISKCON to identify them. Sastra is specific “to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically” but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.
SB 3.31.48 P Lord Kapila’ s Instructions on the Movements of the Living Entities…. one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
Los Angeles, California 90034730513mw.la Conversations
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupada: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
70-01-24. Letter: Ranadhira
Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice–in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.
70-02-14.Sac Letter: Sacisuta
If you simply chant your rounds daily as prescribed and stick strictly to the rules and regulations, all these questions will automatically be answered by Krsna as Supersoul. You may refer in this connection to Bhagavad gita, (10:10), “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” and (10:11), “Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” This process of understanding by devotional service is essential for developing Krsna Consciousness and you all must follow this program assiduously.
72-02-19. Letter: Upendra
(8) In other words, if you are sincere to serve continuously and always chanting, all such questions become answered automatically. I never asked my Spiritual Master one question except one: “How shall I serve you?” So in this way, kindly inform the others that I may be relieved to give you so many more nice books–that is my real desire.
72-03-07.Ani Letter: Aniruddha
Thank you very much for serving Krishna in this way, and if you go on sincerely serving like this, chanting, and following the regulative principles strictly, all your questions will be answered by Krishna automatically.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’s Version
The potency of transcendental sound is NEVER minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, THAT IS LIVING.
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.
73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.
Please consult the Gurus in ISKCON and ask for a solution for the problems the persons who are suffering due to their Guru’s falldown. Since they understand the shastras they will be able to guide you. Concocting something new all of a sudden from some letter written by a personal secretory of Prabhupada is not the solution to this problem.
To say that “Many ISKCON gurus have fallen down. Therefore, all of the ISKCON gurus are bogus.” is a logical fallacy. For a Ritvik/Prabhupadanuga to use this argument makes all of the Ritviks/Prabhupadanugas look bad. It is an embarrassment to the Ritviks/Prabhupadanugas. My advice is to keep repeating the unassailable arguments given on http://rtvik.com/ over and over again. Why get distracted by weak, illogical, easily defeated arguments?
Here is my reply 3 years ago, almost to the day, to a similarly weak, illogical, easily defeated argument:
http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/a9d95d7ae5c7dbf0
Krishna das:
Please consult the Gurus in ISKCON and ask for a solution for the problems the persons who are suffering due to their Guru’s falldown. Since they understand the shastras they will be able to guide you. Concocting something new all of a sudden from some letter written by a personal secretory of Prabhupada is not the solution to this problem.
Mahesh: Conditioned soul Baboons you call “Gurus” in ISKCON are NOT accepted as our AUTHORITY.
July 9th 1977 letter was an ORDER from Srila Prabhupada. Personal secretary of Srila Prabhupada was acting ON ORDER of the MASTER not independent. HENCE July 9th 1977 IS Srila Prabhupada (There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself). AND his words of direction ie. July 9th 1977. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’s Version
The potency of transcendental sound is NEVER minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, THAT IS LIVING.
Krishna das writes ; ” Please consult the Gurus in ISKCON and ask for a solution for the problems the persons who are suffering due to their Guru’s falldown. Since they understand the shastras they will be able to guide you. Concocting something new all of a sudden from some letter written by a personal secretory of Prabhupada is not the solution to this problem.”
It looks like Krishna das is the authorized man of the deviated gurus in the present Iskcon who have the solution for the problems and yet he failed miserably to present one what he thinks the actual solution is. Then again how he and / or his guru in the deviated Iskcon can present the solution to which he and his guru seems to disOBEY entirely the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada ? That is why Krishna das does not accept any thing at all what has been presented thoroughly by quoting Srila Prabhupada.
Krishna das simply refuses to accept no matter what any body writes from the quote of Srila Prabhupada as he says in his comments ; ” Concocting something new all of a sudden from some letter written by a personal secretory of Prabhupada is not the solution to this problem.”
Therefore, he is another lost case. I hope sincerely that he reads with rapt attention some of the material presented from Srila Prabhupada by so many participants and as a result of it, he is able to make his life sublime in cultivating KC.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
Hare Krishna, Dear Devotees.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
This is to inform all the Readers that we have started a NAMA HATA PROGRAM and have built a small web site ; http://www.bsanga.com to glorify Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions and His VANI.
Therefore, I beg to ask every one to kindly give your email address so that we can email our monthly news letter. You may kindly forward me if you so desire your email address at my email : shriamarpuri@hotmail.com
We will not share your email address with any body or any organization.
Thank you kindly.
Hari BOL.
YS…….. Amar Puri.
“Please consult the Gurus in ISKCON and ask for a solution for the problems the persons who are suffering due to their Guru’s falldown.”
Thanks for your advice. I mailed one ISKCON guru (name withheld) who replied that this is not guru’s field of duty. He said, gurus are appointed by GBC, therefore it is GBC’s task area. In sum, this is once again shifting the blame back and forth and not carrying out a responsible position.
“GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing.”
(June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban)
I find the same set of arguments repeated again and again, only addition being some new ill names and bad words. That shows how increasingly frustrated people are because they are not able to prove their point and just are sentimentally supporting it.
ISKCON Gurus are not imitating Prabhupada but are following his instructions and footsteps. By asking someone to be curious within limits, one doesn’t imitate the acharya. You write big big articles and quote so many references(half chicken references) but unfortunately you have not been able to discriminate between imitating and following. Prabhupada never made a statement that this curiosity beyond limits applies only to Maha Bhagavatas who set up new ISKCONs, write more than 50 books, initiate more than ten thousand disciples. It applies to every spiritual master. Someone gave the example of Krishna lifting Govardhan hill and similarly Prabhupada doing so many achievements and for that reason we needn’t ask any recorded or written proof for him, but if anyone doesn’t achieve all these then we must have a written or recorded proof of his being Guru. I have addressed this issue previously stating that Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj has not done these things, still why don’t you ask if Bhaktivinoda Thakura has recorded or written somewhere that he is a bonafide Guru? You have answered that Prabhupada has recognized and so it is enough for us. You say intelligence is enough to recognize a Guru and you say “WE HAVE THAT INTELLIGENCE WHICH YOU ALL DON’T HAVE”. Fine I accept that you are more intelligent than me, but unfortunately I can’t agree that just because you and your unofficial Gurus (who show themselves humble and say Prabhupada is Guru but themselves become instructors) are expert in word jugglery, you are more intelligent than those who enquire, associate and serve spiritual masters as Krishna explains in Bhagavad Gita and find out whether they are really bonafide or no.
Rukmini Ramana dd : Thanks for your advice. I mailed one ISKCON guru (name withheld) who replied that this is not guru’s field of duty. He said, gurus are appointed by GBC, therefore it is GBC’s task area. In sum, this is once again shifting the blame back and forth and not carrying out a responsible position.
In response to this I remember the incident when a scholar came to ask a philosophical doubt to HDG Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura told him that first he go to kitchen and wash some vessels. After that service the scholar told HDG that he came to know the answer. So please develop this service attitude when approaching spiritual master, things will become more clear.
Krishna das: I find the same set of arguments repeated again and again, only addition being some new ill names and bad words
Mahesh: Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others.
Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others.
Note: ISKCON CONDITIONED SOUL BOGUS GURUS described:
Bg 16.4 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
dambho darpo ‘bhimanas ca
krodhah parusyam eva ca
ajnanam cabhijatasya
partha sampadam asurim
Bg 16.4 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance–these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.
PURPORT
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities.
Krishna das: Fine I accept that you are more intelligent than me, ….
Mahesh: So agree to agree WHY disagree?
I disagree that you are more intelligent than other devotees who are serving their spiritual masters. I have made this point very clear, but you have used your half chicken philosophy, which clearly shows cheating propensity.
I am happy at least I have not used cheating propensity to fool people.
Like recently BV Suddhadvaiti Swami who left abruptly, Krishna Das also feels provoked and is not satisfied with answers provided at this forum.
Prabhupada often would use this term: when asking them a question, I did not get satisfactory answer.
In order to resolve this conflict there is more sensitiveness required. First of all, this headline “Ritviks vs Living guru doctrine” is wrong. This phrasing suggests that there are two groups fighting with each other.
In reality it is vice versa, followers of the living guru doctrine are fighting against their own debacle of not performing properly. Failure quota of their living diksa-gurus is just so big that ISKCON’s guru system looks questionable. Not that this is the opinion of the ritviks. It is plain mathematics – failure quota of 60% is unacceptable. Basically all sincere ISKCONites rank&file agree.
Now the argument is that although there is such a huge rate of failures there are some who are genuine. And these deserve to be treated according Vaishnava etiquette like bona fide acaryas.
There are on one side 43 fallen gurus who betrayed thousands of disciples and who were negatively affecting the lives of millions of people and now there are a few who complain that it is nuisance / harassment that Ritviks are teaching to worship Prabhupada. Of course those who joined GM figure that Prabhupada was less advanced and therefore all this could happen. Basically anybody who joined GM did so because he/she totally rejects Prabhupada.
In sum, it is not the Ritviks, it is called fighting against one’s own shadow, a battle that can never be won. Projecting their own shadow deprives ISKCON of the capacity to deal with their own problem of installing fallible “as good as God” gurus. An inconsistency like quadrature of the circle.
Supporters of ISKCON’s guru system believe it is correct in order to feed their own adolescent fantasies of wanting to have divinely inspired leaders to take care of and protect them. Because of this need they invest, so to speak, in their neophyte guru delusion, which just confirms those conditioned gurus all the more that they indeed are God’s instrument. Thus ISKCON gurus and their followers are co-dependently and reciprocally feeding and supporting each other’s unconscious narcissistic needs in a truly pathological, and ultimately self-destructive co-dependent relationship.
The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, more fall-downs will happen in future. To run the grave risk of believing this is God’s will, and at the same time forcing great suffering upon humanity by producing more and more fallen acaryas who are possessed by the hero, or savior archetype.
Gurus fallen into a vicious cycle where they have become addicted to power. Being in the role of having power, there is a counter-incentive to self-reflect, which just reinforces the strength of the pathogen.
Only hope to break free from Psychosis/Schizophrenia, listen to a pure devotee:
“A devotee is very eager to hear from the lips of liberated devotees. As soon as one hears the glories of the Lord from the liberated devotees, he immediately becomes impregnated with Krsna consciousness. This is also confirmed in another verse:
satam prasangan mama virya-samvido
bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah
taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani
sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati
“In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and to the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.” (Bhag. 3.25.25)
Srimad-Bhagavatam: Canto 4: “The Creation of the Fourth Order”
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
I think our Hamsa Prabhu was a personal secretory of some ISKCON Guru for many many years that he has understood everything of what they are thinking and why they are thinking so, or it may be that he is just mentally speculating and creating stories. Sorry, I can also mentally speculate and write pages of information, but we don’t want pages of raw stories, we want the truth. As I said, we can understand a spiritual master by association and service not by mental speculation. With pages of writing and many links none of you were able to convince that there is no chance of Prabhupada not giving any order to any disciple of his regarding his becoming a Guru. Sorry to say Hamsa Prabhu, you are feeding your own fantasies of becoming equal to your spiritual master. It is one’s ego that prevents one from surrendering to a superior authority.
Also, you guys are making propoganda to your disciples (whom you fool and tell as Prabhupada’s disciples) who blindly believe you that ISKCON run by Gurus is a total failure. You also tell them to not go to those temples. So your blind disciples will not come to temples and so will never come to know whether ISKCON under the leadership of Gurus is a failure or a success. If someone sincerely wants to know the truth, I challenge them, come and be with any ISKCON Guru and find out the reality as to how many sincere devotees have they made and how ISKCON temples are flourishing. Those who know the truth are bluffing, the others are kept in darkness and are blindly believing. Anyways, they are told not to go to the temples, because the authorities fear that the followers will come to know the truth.
To say there is only a certain percentage of fallen is a bit misleading. Each and every Iskcon temple where the standards of Srila Prabhupada are no longer kept is under the guidance of a fallen guru.
Offering prasadam differently than Srila Prabhupada’s formula as a result of the overly intelligent escapades of so called brahmanas like Gaura Keshava Das and his cronies in the SAC (Sastric Assault Crew).
The Female Diksa Guru fiasco.
The Kirtaniya infestation. Half naked men and women gyrating during kirtana.
The changing of Srila Prabhupada’s books. Including serious changes to the philosophy.
No women with head coverings. Senior devotees wearing no tilaka.
Corporate centralization of temples in direct opposition to Srila Prabhupada’s desire.
No daily sankirtana in the streets, or even weekly, at most all temples in America.
demigod worship for cash money. Car pujas. Hindu marriage before the Deities.
Continued cover ups of crimes.
And not one of these so called Diksa gurus cares a bit for the following statement by Srila Prabhupada.
“It is also an offense to consider an empowered Vaiṣṇava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give him advice or to correct him. One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaiṣṇava and an advanced Vaiṣṇava by their activities. The advanced Vaiṣṇava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is the sum and substance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī’s advice in the sixth verse.” NOI 6
This Krishna Das who has been appearing on this forum bleating about how we can’t understand the mind or nature of these faux Diksa Gurus unless we live with them daily, doing their laundry and massaging their stinky bodies is the epitome of the grossest neophyte imaginable. His fanatic mind cannot grasp the concept that one associates with another simply by hearing from them, by viewing their behavior, and judging them by their fruits.
Every one of these so called Gurus is on record speaking their nonsense, so we have heard them. They are on record supporting every deviation under the sun, so we have heard from them. Their behavior is abominable, and not just in the accidental sense, but willfully repetitive without remorse. And their fruit is not “flourishing” temples. At least not if you consider Srila Prabhupada’s standard to judge what it means to flourish. The temples have been reduced to Hindu religious centers at best, and dens of iniquity at worst.
So we will let Krishna dasa head up the bootlicking departiment and be personally present to assist these charlatan spiritualists in their degradation of Srila Prabhupada’s legacy, because he has the free will to accept his third class ticket to the darkest region of the universe for punishment.
Krishna das says ; ” I am happy at least I have not used cheating propensity to fool people.”
Else where he writes ; ” ISKCON Gurus are not imitating Prabhupada but are following his instructions and footsteps “.
If the Iskcon gurus are not imitating Prabhupada then why Krishna das writes this ; ” In response to this I remember the incident when a scholar came to ask a philosophical doubt to HDG Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura told him that first he go to kitchen and wash some vessels. After that service the scholar told HDG that he came to know the answer. So please develop this service attitude when approaching spiritual master, things will become more clear.” which he proposes the GBCs who appoint gurus are as good as Srila BSST and one has to serve them in order to get the answer.”
What kind of a cheating is this in this explanation ? Is your GBC gurus are as good as Srila BSST ?
Is it not a cheating when promoting the bogus gurus and their elector GBC on the same platform of Srila BSST by giving the example above in response to RRdd. ?
Therefore, the above explanation of yours simply proves that you are a CHEATER yourself let alone your gurus and their elector GBC whom you are promoting and protecting as such.
It shows from your explanation that you are misleading people and you are an other LIAR and a CROOKED MAN, Krishna das.
You need to give up your bogus guru and follow only Srila Prabhupada to make your life sublime.
Hope it meets you well.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
Krishna das:I disagree that you are more intelligent than other devotees who are serving their spiritual masters
Mahesh: These are YOUR bogus spiritual masters: http://www.harekrsna.org/history.htm
Again the same set of bad words and ill usage of language to vent out frustration but no philosophical points put forward. Someone just said all Gurus have fallen “So I have heard” is the sentence used. This has no value, you must find out the truth. Some seniors who want to stay in power and don’t want anyone to be above them fool you all saying that “We are the best ISKCON temple because we are feeding so many poor people and so many children are going to school because of us. This is what Prabhupada wanted us to do.” And you all all without verification believe this to be true. In that sense the people who tell you all this become acharyas and Gurus but they officially don’t accept it just to misguide you. You are also told to not associate with any Guru and his followers and hear from them. So you will naturally never come to know the truth. I don’t know why you all find it difficult to understand this simple point. Probably it is because of the Vaishnava aparadha you are committing that makes easy things difficult to understand.
By the way ISKCON Gurus are not imitating Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. That is the process given by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita where he says “tat viddhi pranipatena…” Devotees in ISKCON are following this verse. They are not greedy to become equal to their spiritual master and fool others that “actually Prabhupada is your Guru, but you listen to me now. I am very humble and I am not becoming your Guru, so you follow what I say”. I challenge you to come to our temples and see how they are doing in preaching and book distribution. Even a small ISKCON temple in Bangalore did better in the previous marathon than the headquarters of Ritviks (Hare Krishna Hill Bangalore) even when your guys didn’t release the stock of Kannada books till last ten days of marathon just to make sure that the temple couldn’t distribute books. What to speak of other temples like Mayapur, Mumbai and Delhi. Please do some research, don’t believe in your so called acharyas blindly.
Thanks “Krishna Das” for sharing your hurts, revealing your feelings, confessing your failures, disclosing your doubts, admitting your fears, acknowledging your weakness.
Philadelphia might be an active zone where people are not so much traumatized by multiple – up to ten – falldowns of ISKCON gurus and having their lives spoiled so to speak.
When reading your comments it’s obvious that you are not speaking from your own experience what are the aftereffects of a diksha-guru leaving with girl friend and trunks of temple laxmi.
Your reply put in a nutshell, if you got cheated by false gurus do as if nothing has happened and simply again put all your trust and money in the next GBC appointed guru candidate.
Question is since you seem to have no idea of the trail of destruction inflicted upon thousands of devotees, millions of people in general (who lost faith in Prabhupada’s movement) why do you figure to present yourself as an expert to comment on this issue?
Not that your comments are not welcome. But there is some kind of presumptuousness, lack of reality in your postings. Isn’t all this a way out of your league mate?
Mataji, I never said that you believe in anyone blindly. When you don’t believe in the ISKCON Gurus blindly, then when some Guru falls down, why do you directly conclude that this is a wrong process and from now onwards we will take shelter of Prabhupada directly (of course on the order of our Ritvik).
Is this also not blind belief? What makes you think that our approach of trusting Gurus is blind faith and your approach of trusting the words of a Ritvik who never even claims that he knows the absolute truth is not blind faith? Please think on this. I will elaborate the above point to make the understanding more clear.
We claim that our Gurus are representatives of Prabhupada and so have absolute faith on them. For this you may say Gurus are not pure and so it is not logical to put faith on them. Ok, fine. I may accept. But my argument is you have come to know about Ritvikism and how all Gurus usurped the position after Prabhupada left and all that, how today’s ISKCON temples are not doing good and only those temples where disciples get initiated by Prabhupada are doing the best, from your Ritviks and you have accepted them without verification.
Are you also not doing the same mistake of putting absolute faith on someone and that too on the people who themselves say that they are not Gurus (worth to be put absolute faith on)? Or is it that by being humble and saying that, “Prabhupada is your Guru and I am your godbrother who is making you His disciple”, they are in turn taking the position of Gurus at least for the parameter of faith?
Because that is the most important parameter that determines a Guru-Disciple relationship. So you say we have used that parameter on non-liberated souls, then what are you doing? You may say, “We have faith only in Prabhupada”. But it doesn’t seem like that, because you believe in everything what your ritviks say, like other temples are not doing good, all Gurus are fallen etc etc.
Please think and come at a decision.
Krishna Das: “For this you may say Gurus are not pure and so it is not logical to put faith on them.”
Westerners are habituated to indulge in risky activity and that’s where you hook in. Government funded research says, Americans likely spent close to $900 billion total on all forms of gambling in one year.
How does accepting a GBC appointed rubber-stamped ISKCON guru is a risk free investment? Meanwhile thousands of clueless devotees drew a blank and lost everything. Lapidary GBC comment: Read the smallprint, we are exempt from liability for all claims which may arise … bad luck for those poor devils who chose a blooper.
According bhagavat-dharma, indulging in any activity without knowing the result of your work is in the mode of tamas. No educated brahmana ever touches such kind of proposal.
Prabhupada nowhere taught such thing of indulging in high-risk doubtful investment and later on find out that this so called guru was a pseudo guru. This kind of colossal hoax you won’t find anywhere in Prabhupada’s teachings.
Prabhupada: “Therefore purposefully Vyasadeva is writing, sri-bhagavan uvaca, where there is no cheating, no imperfection, no illusion, no mistake. Four things.” (London, August 3, 1973)
You might fool an uneducated clientele to take that risk of accepting one of your rubber stamped gurus. However, meanwhile, after 43 fallen candidates, which intelligent Westerner is fooled by such practical joke?
Prabhupada came to the West to upgrade their spiritual situation. What you are delivering is below Western standard. Since 2000 years Christianity did not have their diksha-guru, Lord Jesus, fallen in disgrace. Whereas you produced within 35 years 43 false “as good as God acaryas”.
And still you insist, they have to be saksadhari – as good as Hari. There is no apology, no capacity of discernment, no sense to make concessions. Obviously only when the case is unmanageable then you admit?
A Prabhupada disciple writes:
“I feel like a fly on the outside of the Temple window. I see old friends and Godbrothers now 30 years after I was beaten up and discarded. Now they are Guru’s being worshiped. They have my blessings. I hope the buildings, followers, worship and money are worth the price. It took alienating 5,500 out Srila Prabhupad’s 6,000 disciples and is the opposite of which Lord Chaitanya advised in Sikshastakam. The more stubbon one’s like me got beaten or worse. There was a murder contract out on Yasodanandan prabhu, previously Swami, who had to go into hiding, incognito for years for opposing the Zonal Guru System – like me. If you guys want the healing to take place, find out who was responsible for getting rid of Srila Prabhupad’s disciples from ISKCON (globally) and patterns will emerge. OR MAYBE YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT US, the flies on the Temple windows. I was only his first EUropean disciple…some thanks for 12 years of spotless service. Still getting Chiropractic work on my lower spine from the beating by a NY Thug Brahmachary, Oriental kid – buffed kickboxer in 1980 Washington DC. Anyone know any devotees there at the time who knew anything about him and what happened after my ruthless beating?”
This little worm who wrongly calls himself a servant of Krishna (Krsnadas) cannot respond to such eloquent argument as produced by Pancadravida das, except to regurgitate the same exact vomit he has been spewing forth since time immemorial. “Come be cheated, and only then can you say for certain that yes, you were walking into a trap.”
And as far as the “fly on the wall” devotee written of in Bh. Micheal’s post, Krsna bas has no compassion for such kind souls. For robotic fanatics like Krsna bas are one trick ponies, who only know how to pander to Jackbooted thugs in the hopes to be just like them as soon as they can usurp their position, and don’t have an ounce of kindness in their bones. Just pure blind ambition. Pure evil.
And with that said, I will reprint my last post which was understandably completely ignored, as it cannot be responded to with anything but more lies.
————————————————————————–
To say there is only a certain percentage of fallen is misleading. Each and every Iskcon temple where the standards of Srila Prabhupada are no longer kept is under the guidance of a fallen guru. And that means ALL OF THEM.
Offering prasadam AND articles for Arotick differently than Srila Prabhupada’s formula as a result of the overly intelligent escapades of so called brahmanas like Gaura Keshava Das and his cronies in the SAC (Sastric Assault Crew).
The Female Diksa Guru fiasco.
The Kirtaniya infestation. Half naked men and women gyrating during kirtana. So called top leaders selling out to the public so called “kirtan” circuit.
The changing of Srila Prabhupada’s books. Including serious changes to the philosophy.
No women with head coverings. Senior devotees wearing no tilaka.
Corporate centralization of temples in direct opposition to Srila Prabhupada’s desire.
No daily sankirtana in the streets, or even weekly, at most all temples in America.
demigod worship for cash money. Car pujas. Hindu marriage before the Deities.
Continued cover ups of crimes.
Creating sham committees (Child protection office) to enhance the cover ups and give a false sense of security to naive people.
Complete neglect of varnasrama orders. Every temple was supposed to have a varnasrama college. Ordered in 1977. There is not ONE.
And not one of these so called Diksa gurus cares a bit for the following statement by Srila Prabhupada.
“It is also an offense to consider an empowered Vaiṣṇava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give him advice or to correct him. One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaiṣṇava and an advanced Vaiṣṇava by their activities. The advanced Vaiṣṇava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is the sum and substance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī’s advice in the sixth verse.” NOI 6
This “Krishna Das” who has been appearing on this forum bleating about how we can’t understand the mind or nature of these faux Diksa Gurus unless we live with them daily, doing their laundry and massaging their stinky bodies is the epitome of the grossest neophyte imaginable. His fanatic mind cannot grasp the concept that one associates with another simply by hearing from them, by viewing their behavior, and judging them by their fruits.
Every one of these so called Gurus is on record speaking their nonsense, so we have heard them. They are on record supporting every deviation under the sun, so we have heard from them. Their behavior is abominable, and not just in the accidental sense, but willfully repetitive without remorse. And their fruit is not “flourishing” temples. At least not if you consider Srila Prabhupada’s standard to judge what it means to flourish. The temples have been reduced to Hindu religious centers at best, and dens of iniquity at worst.
So we will let Krishna dasa head up the bootlicking departiment and be personally present to assist these charlatan spiritualists in their degradation of Srila Prabhupada’s legacy, because he has the free will to accept his third class ticket to the darkest region of the universe for punishment.
This “Krishna das” fellow is an edition of animal who whorships other animals the bogus rubberstamped gurus in ISKCON who have proven sordid history of animal behaviour.
LCFL Life Comes From Life
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh. This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means “dog,” vid-varaha means “stool-eating hog,” ustra means “camel,” and khara means “ass.”
The guy is a lunatic – He just wants attention. Just ignore him.
I offer my respectful obeisances to the Vaisnavas, who can fulfill the desires of the living entities. The transformation of ISKCON coincides with the exponential deterioration of external society, where most of us kicked out have to survive.
Sri Krsna Caitanya’s Golden Age appears to have been checked by an external force, although, by sastra, we know this as an impossibility. Sri Krsna hasn’t lost His ownership of us or His planet Earth. Yet the demons of external society are bunkering in just as the apa-sampradayic controllers of ISKCON are bunkering in. Their exclusivistic arguments are identical.
Sri Krsna never relinquishes His supreme authority to any consortium of wayward jivas. One can argue that a pure devotee may exist as channa within ISKCON, yet this argument would belie belief as such a Mahabhagavata would be daily tolerating multiple offenses committed against Guru (Srila Prabhupada) and Krsna.
More spiritually plausible is that a personality from outside ISKCON would manifest lion-guru sakti and act as a Martin Luther type of reformer removing the poison from the body of ISKCON. One minimizes Sri Krsna’s omnipotence and omniscience who avers that ISKCON’s power play and the external society’s power play are not part of His greater design.
It is without argument that Kali-Yuga has become a veritable nightmare for all except those who control all aspects of life from finance to food production, from education to information – the iron fist has descended.
I sincerely hope that reform can be achieved without the forcible removal of the infection, as will be the case in most countries of the Earth where central banking bleeds the citizens dry of all assets, as well as all hope. Somehow or another, either through an individual luminary or an association of tejiyas, we must put Lord Caitanya’s movement back on track, for the conditioned souls are getting hammered, inside and outside temple walls.
Again the same repeated set of bad words, invalid comparison, venting anger etc etc goes on with no philosophical points put forward. Unfortunately in the above texts there is nothing other than bad words, word jugglery, concoction etc. Those who want to sincerely know the truth please read the below properly:
http://www.rvc.edu/rvc_publications/Diksa_Diksa.pdf
Krishna das says: Those who want to sincerely know the truth please read the below properly: http://www.rvc.edu/rvc_publications/Diksa_Diksa.pdf
In the very first article, Danavir dasa Goswami starts out by quoting Srila Prabhupada as follows:
But, it’s the “zonal acharyas”/GBC who changed, in early 1978, the way in which 1st and 2nd initiations were carried out. All that the Ritviks want to do is to change it back to the way it was in 1977, when Srila Prabhupada said in his Declaration of Will:
In any case, all of their silly, illogical arguments have already been thoroughly defeated:
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/pdf/Danavir_Invents_A_New_Philosophy.pdf
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/drutakarma_caught_in_knowledge_filter.htm
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/gbc_fail_to_answer_the_final_order.htm
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/where_hhjayadvaita_is_wrong.htm
“Your next question, whether the Spiritual Master was formerly a conditioned soul, actually a bona fide Spiritual Master is never a conditioned soul.
You are correct when you say that when the Spiritual Master speaks it should be taken that Krishna is speaking. That is a fact. A Spiritual Master must be liberated. It does not matter if he has come from Krishna Loka or he is liberated from here. But he must be liberated.”
(Letter to: Mukunda — New Vrindaban 10 June, 1969)
A warning. The latest Kali chela apologist to stumble onto this forum, “Krishna das” has offered a link. One glance at that link, and I saw the source of the poison that “Kamsa das” has partaken.
RVC = “Rupanuga” Vedic college = “Danavir das goswami”. Maya Danavir (affectionately).
So Kamsa das is revealing a link to Maya Danavir’s “Dupe-the-nugas” Vedic college, hoping that we might be interested in the speculations on Diksa given by Maya Danavir.
Who is “maya Danavir”? He is the person who 2/3 of the fallen GBC has voted to be “Saksad Hari” (worshiped as good as Krsna) , to be considered “nikunja yuno rati keli siddhyai” (Expert at assisting the gopis in serving the MOST intimate loving pasttimes of Sri Sri Radha Krsna).
Here is a little recollection of the original exploits of Zoned-out-Acarya bootlicker Maya Danavir.
Ameyatma das recalls the scene in LA, 1978. http://www.rtvik.org/vault/overview.html
“Both Tamal and Jayapataka had personal relations with Srila Prabhupad’s Godbrother Sridhar Maharaj. There was question among the GBC men what Srila Prabhupad actually wanted. Was the July 9th letter and appointed Rtviks to apply after Srila Prabhupad’s departure or before? I am not sure if it was Tamal or Jayapataka or the both of them, but someone proposed that a GBC contingency, including Tamal and Jayapataka, meet with Sridhar Maharaj on this topic, seeking his guidance.
And, the GBC approved of this, of consulting and taking guidance from Sridhar Maharaj.
In April of 1977 Srila Prabhupad was discussing with Tamal Sridhar’s previous involvement with the Bagh Bazaar Party who wound up leaving the Gaudiya Math. While Sridhar and Prabhupad were old friends, nevertheless, Srila Prabhupad told us to offer our respects to his godbrothers from a distance. He had only told the GBC they could consult with Sridhar regarding details of how to observe his passing away, his samadhi, etc. It is simply unimaginable that they actually sought out his guidance on how to proceed with such a cataclysmic topic as this.
Tamala Krsna: Today I was reading a very beautiful section of Caitanya-caritamrta that Krsna comes in the form of the spiritual master. And then that…
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is a revelation of Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Guru-krsna.
Tamala Krsna: It was mentioning how the initiator spiritual master is the representative of Sri-Sri-Madana-mohana, and the instructing spiritual master is a representative of Sri-Govindadeva. Very nice explanation you gave in the purport.
Prabhupada: As far as possible, I have tried to present. In one place I have criticized my Godbrothers.
Tamala Krsna: Last night?
Prabhupada: No, no, in Caitanya-caritamrta.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah, at the end in one line. We were… When we read that, it was actually relishable, very personal.
Prabhupada: Sridhara Maharaja is little…
Tamala Krsna: He read it?
Prabhupada: I think so.
Tamala Krsna: Did he make any comment?
Prabhupada: He cannot make any comment. These are facts. Two parties there were. One party, to use guru as their instrument for self-aggrandizement, and another party left guru. So both of them are offenders. This Kunja Babu, this Tirtha Maharaja’s party, he wanted to enjoy senses through guru. And the Bagh Bazaar party, they left.
Tamala Krsna: Vasudeva.
Prabhupada: So both of them are severe offenders.
Tamala Krsna: What about Sridhara Maharaja?
Prabhupada: Sridhara Maharaja belonged to the Bagh Bazaar party. And I was living aloof. My Guru Maharaja approved. He said, “It is better that he is aloof from them.”
Tamala Krsna: He could understand that his disciples were not…
Prabhupada: No, he was very sorry. At the last stage he was disgusted.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation — April 22, 1977, Bombay
“Both of them are severe offenders”, both parties, Kunja Babu-Tirtha Maharaj’s party and the Bagh Bazaar party – of which Sridhar Maharaj was one of the leaders.
My dear Visvakarma das,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated September 3, 1975 with the enclosed statement about Van Maharaja. So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Visvakarma — Bombay 9 November, 1975
That written order is very clear. It was written 2 years before Srila Prabhupad departed. Yet, the GBC approved and Tamal, Jayapataka and others went to Sridhar Maharaj early in 1978, barely 2 years and a few months after the above order was written by Srila Prabhupad to totally avoid all of his godbrothers. Still, those GBC men went, before (or during?) the GBC meetings in Mayapur in 1978, when the GBC were trying to figure out how to proceed. They informed Sridhar Maharaj about the July 9th letter and sought his guidance on this matter.
One such meeting was recorded and some years ago I read a transcript of one of those meetings. Unfortunately I was not able to find it via an internet search at the moment.
I say ‘one of those meetings’ because the transcription I read I remember someone in the meeting refer to previous meetings/discussions with Sridhar Maharaj on this topic. Also, as far as I recall the GBC representatives only presented Sridhar Maharaj with the July 9th letter, and did not provide him with a transcript of the May 28th meeting to which the letter refers to. I do not believe the GBC representatives explained to Srila Sridhar Maharaj the circumstances of that letter. They did not explain that on May 28th Srila Prabhupad was asked a most direct, and most important, question as to how he wanted the intitiations to go on after he departs. They did not explain to Srila Sridhar Maharaj that it was in Srila Prabhupad’s reply to that question that he said that he would soon appoint Rtviks. And that the July 9th letter was his follow up to that meeting and that question. Since Tamal Krsna was telling the other GBC men that the letter only applied to while Srila Prabhupad was present, he may very well have said this to Sridhar Maharaja as well. Without knowing of these most important facts Sridhar mis understood the letter.
His advice to those GBC men at the time was that those 11 men who Srila Prabhupad had named Rtvik should now become regular gurus, the next acharyas suceeding Srila Prabhupad.
However, Srila Sridhar further told them that you cannot have 2 masters in an ashram. He told them that there was an inherent conflict of authority in having a GBC that is the highest authority of an ashram and a Spriitual Master, who is supposed to be the topmost authority of his ashram. To resolve this conflict Sridhar advised the GBC that since Srila Prabhupad had established different zones and that each GBC had their own zone, then the GBC and Acharya for each zone should be the same person. This way the Acharya of that zone would also be the topmost authority for that zone.
Thus, it was Srila Sridhar Maharaj who gave birth to the very distruptive and devistating Zonal-Acharya system that ISKCON suffered under for years just after Srila Prabhuapd departed from this world.
For many years the GBC continued to seek and take Sridhar’s guidance as a number of problems arose. In 1981 (?) Jayatirtha had suffered major fall downs and thus the GBC not only sought Sridhar’s help, they actualy authorized that Jayatirtha should seek shelter and direct guidance from Sridhar Maharaj. The result was that Jayatirtha eventually totally left ISKCON and for sometime had aligned himself with Sridhar’s mission, the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math.
Even though Sridhar Maharaj was not supportive of the Rtvik-Acharya system continueing on in his absence at the time in 1978, by the mid 1980’s he had already appointed Rtvik’s to assist him in his own math, and before Sridhar’s departure even said that Govinda Maharaj would continue to give Rtvik initiations on his behalf for those who still wanted to take shelter of Sridhar. (Refer to the articles Sridhar Rtvik-1 and Sridhar Rtvik-2)
Let me insert my personal experience at the time. Going into 1978, after the GBC meetings in Mayapur, at the time I had no knowledge of any meetings by the GBC with Sridhar, I had no access to the July 9th letter, no knowledge of the May 28th meeting, etc. From my personal perspective all I knew was that the GBC announced to us in 1978 that Srila Prabhupad had appointed 11 new Acharyas, and that we were now expected to accept them as such.
We were not told “anything” about the fact that Srila Prabhupad had only appointed those men as Rtvik-Acharyas. We were only told that Srila Prabhupad had appionted them as the new successor Acharyas, period.
Ramesvar was GBC – now Zonal-Acharya – for the LA temple. When he got back from Mayapur meetings he was reluctant to take up the role as guru. He told me and others that he knew he just wasnt qualified. He told us, maybe in ten years, but not now (then). Most of his godbrothers did not disgree with this assesment. We held some respect for him as a GBC, a leader of Prabhupad’s mission, but we also knew him personally and were aware of the jagged edges of his devotional character. He just wasn’t a full self-realized pure hearted Vaishnav.
Many years later we were told that Bhagavan took no time promoting himself as one of the next acharya’s for ISKCON. We heard, again years after the fact, that in Rome he immediately ordered the removal of Srila Prabhupad’s image on Prabhupad’s Vyasasan and he began sitting in Prabhupad’s seat to give class and have his guru-puja performed, proclaiming himself to be that zone’s new acharya.
Again, from my personal persepctive I felt bewildered and almost numb on hearing that (according to the GBC) Srila Prabhupad had named those 11 men to become the next acharyas of his mission. It left me dumbfounded. How? Why? Could/Would Srila Prabhupad have done this? Couldn’t he see that these men were not yet qualified? I could easily see this. Why couldn’t Srila Prabhupad? All I knew was ‘something’ just wasn’t right. Ramesvar was known to sometimes spew in disgusting language his percieved faults of other devotees. How could Srila Prabhupad had made him one of 11 of his successor gurus? It just made no sense.
Tamal Krsna I did not have much association with, but, he was widely known by the knick-name ‘Hot Tamale’ due to his stern anger in dealing with some of his godbrothers. There was a rumbling in the LA community, how could Srila Prabhupad have named the Hot Tamale as one of his successors?
Immeidately a number of devotees suspected something was awry. But, the vast majority had no direct or substantial information at the time, so there were many varieties of speculation as to what may be a-miss. Some suspected a conspiracy, led by Tamal, where he faked this so-called letter where Srila Prabhupad had named the 11 as the new gurus. And, where was that ‘letter’? We were never shown the actual copy at the time. Personally, I never saw the July 9th letter until the mid 1990’s. Back in 1977, when It was only within weeks to months of Srila Prabhupad’s passing, I first heard some remark that Srila Prabhupad had been poisoned, or that his medicine acted like poison. But, this idea did not get much traction at the time. It was totally inconcievable that such a rumor could be true. At the time, there were so many rumblings and rumors.
In LA, which was where I resided at the time, for a few days Ramesver expressed his reluctance to take up the position of being a new Achayra. I cannot recall if someone from the GBC came to LA and inspiried Danavir, or if it was via phone or fax communicaitons. Whatever the way, Danavir called a meeting of the already initiated Prabhupad disciples. At the meeting he reminded us that in Srila Prabhupad’s absence he told us the GBC shall be the authority in ISKCON. He told us that the GBC have proclaimed that Srila Prabhupad had given a list of 11 men which he had appointed to become the next Acharyas after he departed [ that was not true. The July 9th letter, that list of names, said no such thing. Srila Prabhupad had not appionted anyone to become the next acharya, rather, he had only appointed them to act as his rtvik-representatives. But, we were not told the whole truth. And, I doubt Danavir was informed of the whole truth either, at the time] . Danavir went on to instruct us that it was now our duty to Srila Prabhupad to recognize these men as the new acharyas of our mission. He told us that while we, as the Godbrothers of these me, may not see them as qualified, their disciples (and prospective disciples) will (or, are supposed to from now on). He told us that for the sake of the spiritual lives of the newer devotees we should externally give the new gurus very high respect. We should start referring to them as Srila Ramesvar, etc., and not just Ramesvar. We should present them to the newer devotees as being fully qualified, even if we didn’t think so ourselves. We should glorify their good qualities. We were told this was our duty, that it was needed to assure the sampradaya will continue on smoothly, to assure that ISKCON will go on smoothly and to assure the advancement of the spiritual lives of the newer devotee who now had to surrender to these men and accept the nearest one as their Guru Maharaj and savior. He emphacized that we had no choice but to do this as a show of our love to Srila Prabhupad.
That meeting, and the whole mood that was presented, left a very bad taste in my mouth. Our savior and the life of our soul had left, and everything was going in the wrong direction. Something was horribly wrong. Truth and honesty was being thrown out the door. My true feelings, based on my realizations at the time, was that the 11 ‘new gurus’ were not pure hearted Vaishnavs, and were not fully self-realized. But, I was told not to be honest, not to be truthful. I was told to put up a false show and hold those men up to some artificially high standard.
I tried to resist falsely glorifying those who, in my view, did not deserve the artificial praise that was attributed to them. Previously I used to relish preaching to new people that came to the temple. After this, I lost the enthusiasm. For a long time I could not bring myself to promote men as being bonafide gurus, who in my own heart and according to my own self-realizations, were not actually qualified.
But, time passed and many had jumped on the wagon and took up the facade.
——————————————————————————————————————-
Kamsa das is either Maya Danavir himself, or someone riding on Maya’s bandwagon taking up the facade, and although time has passed, we will never forget.
Kamsa das is welcome to choke on the poison at the other end of that link he provided, I would suggest no one else do so.
Hare Krsna
Ok, got it, Krishna Das came here to teach that Prabhupada appointed eleven “mahabhagavat uttama acaryas” like Jayatirtha, Harikes, Bhagavan and therefore everything is alright and bona fide with present ISKCON gurus. Nothing to worry.
After all, according Krishna Das, present ISKCON gurus are the rightful successors of Kirtanananda, Ramesvara and Hansadutta. And Bhavananda is just about of being reinstated as one of those Krishna Das might call, “genuine spiritual masters in good standing”. Of course you can only find out when thickly associating with Bhav and daily listen to his lectures.
So far so good. Krishna Das seems to be GBC spokesman who reminds us to behave like those who were thrown overboard the ISKCON ship and kindly keep silent.
In sum, Krishna Das is saying that ISKCON performs better than during Prabhupada’s physical presence and doesn’t require Ritviks who constantly get on the nerves of hard working, dedicated GBC men.
Only question, why is Krishna Das not traveling to Bangalore and has a look how Srila Prabhupada is fully present in their temples? How all devotees are inspired and doing nicely.
Might be when Krishna Das returns to US he will take the blinkers off, face up to the fact that Prabhupada is not dead&gone and give up his bodily consciousness?
Krishna Das will be enriched by divine experiences!