June 17, 2012, Australia — Hare Krsna, AGTSP. I am a former disciple of this man, who was sent by the GBC to look after Australasia after the disaster that was Bhavananda! I was in one of the final ever initiation ceremonies that this charismatic American charlatan ever performed.
It wasn’t till I traveled to England a few years later that I was told that the whole of the global ISKCON community knew about Bhavananda’s preference for boys and booze and the initiations should have been stopped years earlier. But still they went ahead as they were kept secret from the devotees that would be affected, by the GBC.
So after many years of soul searching I took initiation from PV in his first few years as a Guru. I guess the reassuring thing is that he was probably following the 4 regs etc. at the time. Now he has finally been exposed as a philandering whore all whilst continuing to have a huge impact on people’s lives.
I was banned from studying at a “karmi” university, which I have been told he has since done, when I had a fall from grace (as a grhastha). I was banned from preforming deity service for a minimum of 6 months, but he can bath the deities in his shiny white cloth after banging a whore in Bangkok – sounds fair to me?
These men should never have been put in this position in the first place and the power and glory goes to their head, as is human nature. Please keep up the pressure with the disgraceful GBC who use ‘mushroom management’ worse than any corporate that I have worked with. This is people’s lives that you are messing with guys, it completely ruins the spiritual faith of so many people and it is disgusting. I have even heard of ex members doubting the validity of Prahupada because of all the nonsense of these debauched, lying men.
Get some women on the GBC to balance out the management of this worldwide movement. They will bring some ‘humanity and empathy’ to the decisions being made about thousands of people’s lives. Get rid of the “Hindi” culture that has dominated the movement for decades… e.g. stop insisting that husbands should be worshipped by their wives, when they are not fulfilling their side of the bargain and looking after their family.
How many devotees couples have you seen that once they have children it is the mother who ends up going out to earn an honest living to support their “devotee” husbands who are too busy chanting and reading etc… Start treating these men who have been given these “Guru” jobs the same as everybody else, after all how many of these men have fallen down in the most disgusting (even by karmi standards) ways, so the old system is not working.
They take their prasadam in the temple like everyone else on plain plates, they sleep in the brahmacari ashrams on the floor if necessary, no garlands, no feet washing, no money given to them, take the train like “normal” devotees, go on food for life and serve the homeless bums prasadam, scrub pots in the kitchen, distribute books on a freezing winters day whilst being abused by “karmis” etc, etc. After all Prabhupada wouldn’t have hesitated to do this. If this was a corporate it would be time for a restructure!
Keep up the pressure for transparency and honesty from ISKCON and the GBC, especially with the worship and millions of dollars that these men accept in the good name of Srila Prabhupada.
Iskcon was finished before Srila Prabhupada left the planet, days before ACBSP departed Tamal Krishna gathered the most lusty and materially motivated crowd into a room and said “Who wants to be a Guru?” It was no different to a faction within a political party seizing the top jobs before anyone else got their hands on the top jobs. Genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not behave like this!
ACBSP said in his letters “I have created these big positions for those people with the biggest egos”
When ACBSP visited Japan he was amazed at how humble the Japanese were and how well they treated him in contrast to how badly his so called most senior disciples treated him. ACBSP only met his own Gurudeva 5 times.
ACBPS said an insect may sit on the lap of the King but it will only bite him.
ACBSP said “Hansadutta is praying for me to die so that he can become Guru”
The leaders that stole the reigns of Iskcon were the insects that surrounded and controlled Srila Prabhupada and they may have even killed him. Its very damming for the sons when a father talks of being poisoned on his death bed. Srila Prabhupada was no fool and he owned a pharmaceutical business prior to retiring into Gaudiya Vaishnava life. He would have known the symptoms of being poisoned (black vomit and black stool).
The poison issue may never be solved but its very very damming for the sons when a father talks of being poisoned on his death bed and even worse for a Guru’s disciples. I believe the infamous 11 wanted Srila Prabupada out of the way, they couldn’t wait to become Guru.
Now Iskcon has become another religious institution similar to the Catholic Church, it is devoid of spirituality and bhakti, they do not even practice Sadhana Bhakti they only practice Vaidhi Bhakti.
They are turning the humble area of Navadvip & Mayapur into the city of Dvaraka with their concrete and steel. That is their only contribution to the Gaudiya Vaishnavas to build a big big Temple, it somewhat represents their big big egos, all external and devoid of any spirituality or bhakti.
What Iskcon practices is nothing like traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
Thanks Leon for your concern over Prabhupada’s ISKCON movement.
When highlighting coherence of such fundamental importance it is usually like that that thoughtful readers expect sound reference with verbatim quote, original quotation. To know from hearsay is also good, but public platforms with all types of readers / scholars of theology expect solid journalism what includes to provide objective evidence / to furnish proof.
Again thanks for posting, hopefully all these grievances get clarified soon.
All glories to ShrilaPrabhupada!
I feel like a insect before all the assembled devotees to write here.
Thanks Leon for your concern over Prabhupada’s ISKCON movement.
When we are afflicted by this current crisis, sometimes by nature we take some actions / course which are not in line with SrilaPrabhupada’s desire.
by your ur line below
“…..Get some women on the GBC to balance out the management of this worldwide movement……”
we learn that you meant doing good, bring long term stability of Prabhupada’s ISKCON movement.
So if we are replacing men with women attitude of Queen Kunti Devi’s then even ShrilaPrabhupada would not object your suggestion.
We should do things within the frame work of his instructions, else if go out we will be bringing the same chaotic situation in future and be unable to receive Shrila Prabhupada’s mercy.
So give a thought to please ShrilaPrabhupada’s desire.
Current GBC leaders perfectly failed to understand “The Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek”
All glories to the assembled devotees!
Dandavant pranams!
Dear SrirangamDham Vasi, Queen Kunti Devi had a child out of wedlock and to cover up her shame and impropiety, she placed the child in a box and threw him in the river possibly to be drowned.
So, do you think Queen Kunti Devi would be a right person for a good example of a women with a proper attitude for transparency and honesty?
Hare Krsna.
Hare Krsna.
Yes i think the gender issue being talked about above is the wrong angle to set management of Iskcon on a better course.
The problem with the management of iskcon is that it is managed “corporately”, that is with the mode of passion and mode of ignorance in place.
Our Iskcon mandate for our lifestyles and way of governing is through Srila prabhupada’s simple statement of “Simple living-Hign thinking” which means through mode of goodness in communities based on a symbiotic relationship with Cows(mode of goodness) and land in rural situations.
If you look through the Gbc/Gurus and Sannyasis and Temple Presidents its very difficult to find leadership and management that is inclusive, community minded and operating in mode of goodness.
I dont mind who manages,men or women, but it has to be done according to our mandate in the mode of goodness.All the iskcon leadership have done is create havoc, anit-social behaviour and chaos, not really mode of goodness influence and quality.
Personally i think this theme goes right through iskcon devotees. They have so much style but no taste.
Yes iskcon are building a concrete and metal empire that only tasteless people will follow because this is punctuated by western capitalistic principles of industrialised materials, touristic principles of Cow protection and governing the devotees through corporate ways.
yes iskcon was finished way before Srila Prabhupada disappeared but Iskcon exists in the hearts of devotees who actually love Srila Prabhupada and follow His instructions, not just the Guru issue but all of His instructions including the most important one of “Simple living-High thinking” for all iskcon members. iskcon failed in this simple instruction for its members years ago and it will never recover this unless there are individuals who recognise the way forward for Iskcon’s economy is through the mode of goodness. Otherwise iskcon will always stay like the Catholic Church, over institutionalised .
The Gbc are to blame and so are the ritviks for keeping the institutional life alive.They both just focus on the “ceremonial” institutional mechanistic robotic religion and they have both forgotten Srila Prabhupada’s Spiritual principles of Bhakti Yoga.
your servant Dusyanta dasa. lovely simple Wales.
Dusyanta dasa claims that, “….They both just focus on the “ceremonial” institutional mechanistic robotic religion…..”
However according to TFO, aka “The ritvik bible” ….
Diksa normally involves a ceremony, but it is not absolutely essential, more a formality:
Thus the ceremonial initiation is a formality performed to solidify in the mind of the disciple the serious commitments he has made to the process of diksa. Such commitments include:
• Receiving transcendental knowledge which will purify him of all contamination.
• Maintaining the determination to always follow the order of the diksa guru.
• To begin enthusiastically executing the spiritual master’s orders.
Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that the formality of the ceremony is just that, a formality, not an essential. Furthermore, this formalisation of initiation through a ceremony, itself involves a number of elements:
1. Recommendation by an official of the institution, usually the Temple President.
2. Acceptance by acting ritvik.
3. The participation in a fire yajna.
4. The taking of a spiritual name.
It is only points two and four which necessarily involves a ritvik priest. The other two are usually carried out by the Temple President or some other qualified brahman.
As mentioned previously, nowhere is it ever stated that the guru and disciple must co-exist on the same planet in order for the disciple to receive any element of diksa, such as transcendental knowledge, annihilation of sinful reactions, a fire yajna ceremony and a spiritual name. On the other hand, every element of diksa (knowledge transmission, the yajna, etc.), can be given quite easily without the guru’s physical presence. This was demonstrated practically by Srila Prabhupada, as he gave all the elements of diksa through intermediaries such as his disciples and books. Thus, no spiritual principles are changed through the use of ritviks. Only a change of detail is involved.
Thus, to put into perspective the use of ritviks, it has been shown that we are dealing with the details of a formalisation ceremony; a ceremony which itself constitutes but one element, and an unnecessary element at that, of the transcendental process of diksa.
Hare Krsna.
yes this is exactly where the ritvik philosophy falls down by the dogmatic following of the “Final order” which was compiled by …….??.
When Srila Prabhupada “demonstrated practically” this methodology He was PHYSICALLY present on the planet. The example could not have been cited otherwise.
He did not demonstrate this when He was not physically present.
And lastly you obviously have not understood exactly what “Diksa” is for yourself and have just accepted how the “Final Order” teach it in its limited capacity.
The process of Diksa is defined by Srila Prabhupada @ Cc Madhya Lila 15.108 and Cc Madhya 4.111 .
But He does not say that this is the only definition or that this a complete definition.
The “Di” part of the word “Diksa” does mean to give Transcendental knowledge but it also means to give other aspects of spiritual life.
When Lord Krishna gives the Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna He is known as the Shiksa Guru, and when Srila Prabhupada is giving His BOOKS he is also Shiksa Guru in this form.
But you have to understand what exactly and whom exactly the Diksa Guru is giving in the “Di” of Diksa.
Cc Adi Lila.1.34.
“The initiating and instructing spiritual masters are equal and identical manifestations of Krsna, although they have different dealings……..”
Once you properly understand the “different dealings” in the real personal sense of the shelter giving Diksa Guru then the relationship and especially the “different dealings” are understood.
In the form of His Books Srila Prabhupada is the Shiksa Guru the same as Lord Krsna is in the Bhagavad-Gita. Otherwise we could all obtain Diksa from Lord Krsna and would not need any spiritual masters. But Lord Krsna does not instruct that to us.And neither does Arjuna accept Lord Krsna as his Diksa guru even though they were both physically present together.
“The Final order” has totally misapplied exactly what the dealings are for the Diksa relationship to connect. And Bhakta Hugh like many other ritviks have soaked it all up like sponges because they just want to hear that version because it suits them
Why dont you find out for yourself rather than depend on some other person telling you what the Diksa relationship is all about. If you think the Diksa relationship has something to do with Srila Prabhupada’s Books then you have made the same mistake.
Thanks for your reply prabhu.
I was simply pointing out your erronious claim that ritviks just focus on the ceremonials. Since you never challenged my post but instead moved on to something else. I presume you accept your error.
One thing puzzles me though, if you know so much about diksa, why did you take Shiva Rama Swami as your guru?
Or is this another error?
There are many more such errors in your reply to my post but I’ll be brief and focus on the following ..”If you think the Diksa relationship has something to do with Srila Prabhupada’s Books then you have made the same mistake.”
From the above exchange it can be understood Srila Prabhupada is a living spiritual master who continues to impart transcendental knowledge (the main constituent of diksa) through his books – and that this will continue for as long as ISKCON exists. The role of his disciples being to facilitate the process.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain his instructions and guidance which are non-different from “himself”.
CONCLUSION:
Dear SG mataji/ prabhu, pl. accept my humble obeisances,
Your Question: So, do you think Queen Kunti Devi would be a right person for a good example of a women with a proper attitude for transparency and honesty?
Yes, Queen Kunti Devi is a “all good” example.
She is the incarnation of the success potency of the Personality of Godhead.
Lord Chaitanya is perfect thats why SrilaPrabhupada has given us a book “Teachings of Lord Chaitanya.”
If any teacher is not perfect then why would we have his book?
Likewise since Queen Kunti is perfect, so SrilaPrabhupada gave us “Teachings of Queen Kunti” and it is accepted by all our previous acharyas.
Of course, we have better examples who excel Queen Kunti, we can move on to superior devotees on the ladder like the gopis,…upto Srimati Radharani, but still Queen Kunti is good, we are in no position to compare them with us and our defective senses.
In general, women devotees are beyond comparison to pure devotees like Queen Kunti, Mother Yashoda, Mother Devaki, Queen Draupadi…. others.
The so called good and bad is relative here in this material world, and when we conditioned souls relate it with transcendental pastimes of the Lord we get carried away with this material tinge.
Don’t be having any doubts with pure devotees of Lord Krishna whether they are “good” or “bad”. Lord Krishna is “all good” and His pure devotees mission is to serve the “all good” then how they can be bad, they are also “all good”.
Even though Parkishit Maharaj was cursed by a brahimin boy, but his father condemned his son’s actions, and he never felt bad for the King’s action, rather he felt sorry for being unable quench Parkishit Maharaj’s thirst.
It is Lord’s will to bring this situation to give us Srimad Bhagavatam in this way. Because Parkishit Maharaj garlanded a dead snake, we cannot claim him as a unruly king, since all the learned Brahmans were happy with his administration and praised him. Shringi was just a brahmin boy, is not advanced like his father.
There enough pure devotees in Lords pastimes who are puppets in Lords hands but they are beyond doubt ever if they seem to us doing wrong
Hope this transcendental personality Queen Kunti remains in your heart as always good and “all good.”’
All glories to the assembled devotees!
Urs in the service of ShrilaPrabhupada
SrirangamDhamVasi das
One comment above mentions that Krishna imparting knowledge to Arjuna is an example of the function of the siksa guru. Arjuna officially received diksa from someone else. The ritvik ideology is that Srila Prabhupada is still giving diksa because we are receiving knowledge from his books. They then state that one can have only one diksa guru but may have many siksa gurus. What I have noticed among ritvik ideologists is that when asked who is their siksa guru, they only mention Srila Prabhupada’s name.
What this tells me is that Srila Prabhupada has been accepted by ritviks as their eternal spiritual master, and that is a good thing. It also tells me that it is not correct for ISKCON devotees to limit Srila Prabhupada’s role by denying that he is present to act as the deliverer of all those who follow his teachings. He is not just imparting transcendental knowledge through his books, he is also guiding the follower from within his heart and, by his blessings, is enabling his return back to Godhead.
There is no need to offer special worship to Srila Prabhupada’s representatives who conduct initiations.
No such instruction was given by Srila Prabhupada. But if a devotee finds that someone in particular is helping him to understand his eternal relationship with Srila Prabhupada and encouraging him in devotional service, he may think of that devotee as his siksa guru. I do not know why ritvik devotees, at least in my experience, do not mention anyone else who might be acting in the role of siksa guru in their lives.
Hare Krsna .
Yes Bhakta Hugh you have made more errors with your wildy speculative question.
“Why did you take H.H. Siva Rama Swami as your Guru?”
Massive error of yours again.
And why to presume he is my Diksa Guru anyway.
Seems like you have forgotten that there is such a thing as Shiksa Guru that you just think , as does “The Final Order” that the emphasis is on Diksa Guru all the time. Thats another mistake you ritviks make all the time.
“Srila Prabhupada: Our Diksa Guru” written by The Prabhupada-Nugas a reply to Sivarama Swami Paper-“Continuing the Parampara.”
Same old evidence twisted to the meanings of ritvik spectacled followers.
I just read Srila Prabhupada’s Books and in His Books He explains so much about Diksa that you dont see or want to see. You have all missed the point because you just see one piece of the jigsaw that suits your needs and stick to it. But there are so many other pieces of the jigsaw that the “Final Order ” did not deal with.
Thats why you just repeat the same presentation that the “final Order ” presents because you have just sucked up to it because you want to suck up to that message.
Become Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple, and the ritviks ALL say the same answer become His Diksa disciple.because you all follow the incomplete message of the “Final Order”. Wake up Bhakta Hugh from the “Final Order” comotose and find out for yourself and complete the jigsaw.
Lord Krsna is Shiksa Guru for Arjuna and they were physically together on the Battlefield, their relationship is the Shiksa relationship. Arjuna took Diksa from another Guru.
Lord Krsna is the highest authority and He is Shiksa Guru in His Bhagavad-Gita.
And Srila Prabhupada is Shiksa Guru in His Books not Diksa Guru.You cant be a Diksa Guru from a Book but a Shiksa guru.
The quotes you provide show that Srila Prabhupada is a living Spiritual master .
The Spiritual masters instructions are Himself but that does not support your conclusion whatsoever.
Yes we will utilise Srila Prabhupada’s books but what is our relationship with Him in this form–its Shiksa Guru not Diksa guru.
The “Final Order” have not fully understood what the Diksa Guru relationship means and the ritvik followers just assume that Diksa is ONLY what is defined in CC Madhya 15.108 and CC Madhya 4.111.
But what about the personal relationship in the process of Diksa, the dealings are different between the Diksa Guru and the Shiksa Guru thats why there are two words to describe the Spiritual masters.Otherwise why have different words for the same thing which is what ritviks advocate.
The “final Order” is just based on no experience of the Diksa relationship-its an imperfect,incomplete booklet, there is so much missing from it.
Diksa is a process of course i agree with much of what you present but Diksa is also a personal relationship of loving shelter. The Diksa Guru delivers the shelter of whom?….. and How does He deliver the shelter?
If you just think that Diksa is just a process then thats an incomplete understanding and i would say you need to speak to, enquire from and render service to a personal Diksa Guru so you can gain that experience and then also realise the shelter He gives to you as a disciple,we are personalists after all is said and done.
So your speculative question that H. H Siva rama Swami is my Guru, that i took him as my Guru is wrong by a long way.Your information is wrong and you have presented this inaccurately.
You will never be able to obtain Diksa from Srila Prabhupada’s Books , thats a ridiculous error.You claim that the main constituent of Diksa is receiving Transcendental Knowledge . But here in Srila Prabhupada’s Books He is Shiksa Guru and your presumption is He is Diksa guru from His Books, thats your error.The quote you supplied does not say Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa guru from His Books, thats just the way you have misconstrued His statement to suit your wants and needs.
Yes your last statement is Srila Prabhupada continues to instruct and guide from His Books which is the Shiksa Guru relationship dealing.
yes the usual rittvik put down, so un-vaisnava and impersonal. Why dont you just grow up and present your debate . What is the point in your last statement. Who are you directing it to? Why be so childish to try to put neophytes down, does this not show your true colours.This is what the Gbc/Gurus do and this is what the ritviks do, character assassination. You must be so advanced , please accept my humble obeisances in the dust of your lotus feet.
your unworthy servant, Dusyanta dasa.
Prabhupda wanted such kind of ritviks who are the most surrendered souls. These ritvik devotees can, as a matter of etiquette be reconfirmed in their function as ritviks by a regular vote of the temple community every third year.
In this way, performance and character is publicly disclosed and regularly recognized.
This is a matter of technical formality. However, naturally, advanced devotees display all this what Dusysantha constantly repeats is missing: Personality, loving relationship, affection, spotless character and heartiness. In fact, empowered ritviks are like via media, Prabhupada’s mercy, personality, love and cordiality is flowing through such ritviks like Prabhupada would be personally present. In fact he is personally present and able to fully reveal himself in the presence of his sincere followers.
When Prabhupada was physically present this was the system. Devotees who performed wonderful devotional service were considered as being directed by Prabhupada. And their exemplary service, a manifestiation of Prabhupada’s presence. Whenever devotees accomplished nice devotional activities this was considered as only possible by Prabhupada’s presence. In this way Prabhupada was always present. Why there should be any barrier which blocks Prabhupada from being fully present among his sincere servants?
Prabhupada: So the bhakti gives you chance to see Krsna, as you can see now. On this seeing or any other kind of seeing, they are the same thing. There is no difference. When Arjuna was seeing Krsna face to face—Krsna was teaching Bhagavad-gita—that seeing of Krsna and when you read Bhagavad-gita, it is the same thing. There is no difference. Somebody, they say that “Arjuna was fortunate enough to see Krsna face to face and take instruction.” That is not correct. Krsna, He can be seen immediately, provided you have got eyes to see. Therefore it is said, premanjana-cchurita… Prema and bhakti, the same thing. (Bombay, November, 1976)
So we shouldnt bring in any materialistic consideration, exclude all possibility of doubt that Srila Prabhupada is unable to be fully present. It is our material conditioning what says that unless their is a physical material body sitting in front of us there cannot be any complete transcendental revelation.
It seems Dusyantha’s reasoning is a mixture of rationality, trying to find sastric evidence and worldy emotional feelings that without having a living guru sitting right in front of us, it is not the real thing.
Again, superiority of Christian mysticism comes to mind. Christians never complain like that, that they go nuts without having Lord Jesus Christ physically present. For them he is present. Christians never had this problem of a fallen spiritual master. Lord Jesus is always transcendental – and, Christians never have such type of nervous breakdown like Dusyantha pr of Lord Jesus not physically present. For them, Lord Jesus is real, present, and always ready to fully bestow his mercy and shelter to his sincere followers.
Since Dusyantha pr isn’t alone but rather representing all of present Vaishnava institutions mentality, question is, what the heck of higher spirituality do these devotees want to introduce in the West?
Do Christians require such type trial-and-error method of Lord Jesus replacement? Trial-and-error method, because Dusyantha pr always avoids to mention what happened in ISKCON past 35 years. He always quotes and quotes but never mentions that this perpetual falling down of so called gurus is not what sastra is teaching, it is a bogus concoction, apasiddhanta.
Of course Christians are thankful with Dusyantha pr’s revelation of doubts. They understood from Prabhupada how to better follow Lord Jesus Christ’s commandements. And, Vaishnavaism is no more a thread. The Dusyantha class of Vaishnava doesnt have a guru like Lord Jesus, still searching. Also seems like Vaishna institutions are making a strategic withdrawal in the West. Do they know they are defeated?
Locanananda dasa says:
“I do not know why ritvik devotees, at least in my experience, do not mention anyone else who might be acting in the role of siksa guru in their lives.”
I can’t speak for others in this regard. However as I see it, unless one’s other siksa guru’s are fully self-realized, what’s the point of advertising such?
Sure, if I was fortunate enough to have such relationships, then I would be eager to let you know.
@Dusyanta dasa
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Prabhu, you write like someone who has just discovered some dogs poo on their sandal.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to disturb you so much.
Bhakta Hugh — Would you say that as far as you know, there is no self-realized soul who adheres to the ritvik point of view?