httpv://youtu.be/yR4ziZIduJo
video: Prabhupada Sings Bajahu Re Mana w Illustrated History pt1of2 | RALPH LAURINO
Srila Prabhupada, Boston, May 6, 1968, (Glenville Ave. Temple): […] So the word that, “Nothing can happen without the sanction of God”, that is a fact. Nobody can act anything… Then the question is why a man acts sinfully? Why…? Does God give sanction for sinful action? Yes. When one insists that, “I shall do it”. “All right, do it. And suffer the consequences.”
So this purification process, according to Vaishnava smrti, adau gurvasrayam tato sad-dharma-prcchat sadhu marganugamanam. In the beginning one has to accept a spiritual master, bona fide spiritual master. And who is bona fide spiritual master? That is also described in several Vedic scriptures.
In the Upanisad it is said, srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. One who has come down in disciplic succession and as a result of such authorized succession one has become fully, firmly convinced in Brahman. Brahman, Paramatma, Bhagavan, the same thing. Brahma-nistham. He is transcendentally situated.
So these things are there. And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is said that who requires a spiritual master? That is also said. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. One, let one surrender himself unto the spiritual master. Who is that one? Jijnasuh. One who is inquisitive.
What about inquisitiveness? Jijna… sreya uttamam. The highest perfectional stage of life. If one is inclined what is transcendental life, what is spiritual life, what is perfection of life, if one is inclined to this subject matter, for him there is necessity of approaching a bona fide spiritual master.
To accept a spiritual master is not a hobby. “Because everyone accepts some spiritual master, let me have also a spiritual master without following the instruction, without following the principles.”
That sort of acceptance of spiritual master is not required. He doesn’t require to accept a spiritual master who is not inquisitive on transcendental subject matter. Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. Uttamam means… Ut means surpassing, and tamam means the darkness. This material world is darkness.
And one who has transcended the darkness region and has come to the region of light… Jyotir gamah tamasa ma, “Don’t remain in this darkness. Go to the light.” So that is called uttamam. Full Lecture
Bhakta Hugh says:
23. January 2013 at 5:53 pm
SG:”This i disagree because the term “ritvik” related to initiation in Iskcon was only mentioned in July 1977 and was never before that. Not in his books, not in his letters, not in his conversations, not in his classes/lectures etc.”
BH — The May 28th conversation also equates officiating acarya with ritvik which is before July 9th.
SG — Am aware of the May 28th conversation but as mention in my earlier posting, it has been tempered and the conversation doctored. We can’t really be sure if the conversation did at all took place in the May 28 of 1977.For all we know that part of the conversation could have been pieced together from various other conversations and ‘fitted’ in the original conversation to make it look like it was part of the whole conversation. Even the July 9th 1977 letter and Srila Prabhupada’s signature on it could be a suspect if not for the July 7th 1977 conversation tape assuming that it is original.
Safe to say the only thing credible in Iskcon about Srila Prabhupada’s instruction and directions are his
original books which he used for his classes and lectures. So, Bhakta Hugh if you wish use the May 28th
conversation it is your choice but sorry to say i don’t accept the tape to be original and reject it
completely. After all did not Srila Prabhupada say that whatever we need to know are all in his books
and all we have to do is read them.
BH — Also the word ‘ritvik’ (meaning priest) and its derivatives actually have 32 separate references in Srila Prabhupada’s books, only slightly less than the word diksa and its derivatives, which has 41 separate references in Srila Prabhupada books. (All figures are from TFO 1996)
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 . (all these references are from the Srimad-Bhagavatam)
SG — I do not dispute the fact that ‘ritvik’ to mean priest. Am fully aware of it.
BH — Certainly, the use of ritvik priests to assist in initiation ceremonies is a concept fully sanctioned
in Srila Prabhupada’s books. That is what priests do.
SG — Yes, but where in his books has Srila Prabhupada mentioned the use of ritviks priests to assists him
in preforming initiation ceremonies in iskcon. Is there a description of this.? Also, when Srila Prabhupada was asking the temple presidents to conduct the fire ceremony for initiation in Iskcon did he at anytime refered to them as ritviks.?
BH — Where in shastra, or in Prabhupada’s teachings is it stated that ritviks (priests) do not do initiation ceremonies?
SG — Thats my point. Other than saying rtvik to mean priest in his books, there is no mentioned of ritviks not doing initiation in iskcon neither is there any mention or description of ritviks preforming initiation ceremony in iskcon whether it be during Srila Prabhupada presence or after his departure.
Here in the purport Srila Prabhupada tells one to approach and to accept a bona fide guru. It is essential as mentioned in S/B canto 8, chp 16, text 23 and 24 (First Print 1976)
as quoted below —
“TEXT 23
TRANSLATION
0 best of the brahmanas, kindly instruct me in the perfect method of worshiping the Supreme Personality
of Godhead in devotional service, by which the Lord may very soon he pleased with me and save me, along with my sons, from this most dangerous condition.
PURPORT
Sometimes less intelligent men ask whether one has to approach a guru to be instructed in devotional service for spiritual advancement. The answer is given here-indeed, not only here, but also in Bhagavad gita, where Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru (sisyas te ‘ham sadhi mamtvam prapannam). The Vedas also instruct, tad-vijnanartharil sa gurum evabhigacchet: one must accept a guru for proper direction if one is seriously inclined toward advancement in spiritual life. The Lord says that one must worship the acarya, who is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (acaryam mam vijaniyat). One should definitely understand this. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that the guru is the manifestation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, according to all the evidence given by the sastra and by the practical behavior of devotees, one must accept a guru. Aditi accepted her husband as her guru, so that he would direct her how to advance in spiritual consciousness, devotional service, by worshiping the Supreme Lord.
TEXT 24
TRANSLATION
Sri Kasyapa Muni said: When I desired offspring, I placed inquiries before Lord Brahma, who is born from a lotus flower. Now I shall explain to you the same process Lord Brahma instructed satisfied.
PURPORT
Here the process of devotional service is further explained. Kasyapa Muni wanted to instruct Aditi in the same process recommended to him by Brahma for satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is valuable. The guru does not manufacture a new process to instruct the disciple. The disciple receives from the guru an authorized process received by the guru from his guru. This is called the system of disciplic succession (evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. This is the bona fide Vedic system of receiving the process of devotional service,by which the Supreme Personality of Godhead is pleased. Therefore, to approach a bona fide guru, or spiritual master, is essential. The bona fide spiritual master is he who has received the mercy of his guru, who in turn is bona fide because he has received the mercy of his guru. This is called the parampara system. Unless one follows this parampara system, the mantra one receives will be chanted for no purpose. Nowadays thereare so many rascal gurus who manufacture their mantras as a process for material advancement, not spiritual advancement. Still, the mantra cannotbe successful if it is manufactured. Mantras and the process of devotional service have special power, provided they are received from the authorized person.
And in the CC / Adi lila text 35 ( First Print 1974 ), Srila Prabhupada says that if one cannot serve
a spiritual master directly, the devotee should simply remember his instruction as quoted below —
“If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for
unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science
of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on. One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination.
It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly,
a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.”
Here Srila Prabhupada says it is important to accept a guru and serve him. If one cannot serve a guru directly one should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. There is no statement about post samadhi ritvik initiations and becoming his disciple.
My understanding is that the ritviks use the July 9th letter to put forward their claim that Srila Prabhupada
wanted the proposed initiation process in the letter to continue after his departure. But if one reads the
letter one will find that there is no such statement made in the letter. Which is why when questioned the
ritviks can’t point it out in the letter and always quote from the books. And this makes no sense. If one
claims that Srila Prabhupada has said this in the letter then they should point it out from the letter itself.
And since the ritviks could not do that it would mean that there is no such instruction in the letter.
And while the term rtvik was used in Srila Prabhupada’s books to mean priest, in the July 9th letter it is
used to mean as representatives of the acharya for the purpose of preforming 1st and 2nd initiation which
they don’t actually do. Their duties are to accept or not devotees recommended for initiation, give
spiritual names and chanting on the Gayatri treads. They do not even chant on the beads for 1st initiation.
They also do not preform the actual initiation ceremony. According to the letter this is still being done by
the Temple Presidents or priest. This was actually what Srila Prabhupada was doing but due to poor health and with devotees waiting to take initiation, he delegated this responsibilities to the 11 senior disciples to do it on his behalf. Still Srila Prabhupada did not relinquish his responsibilities completely. The 11 representatives were told to send the initiated names to Srila Prabhupada to be included in his Divine Grace initiated disciples book. Even though in the July 7th conversation Srila Prabhupada agreed to Tamal Krsna to continue to record the initiated names in his initiated disciples book on his behalf, in his July 9th letter Srila Prabhupada placed his name to be the person to receive the initiated names. Srila Prabhupada was never never out of the ‘loop’. He was always in the ‘loop’ till the last day of his departure.
There are two points here –
1. Srila Prabhupada did not say the ritvik initiation must continue after his departure. There is no such
statement in his letter.
2. Srila Prabhupada said the initiated names are to be sent to him. That was his instruction in his
letter. How does one do this if he is no longer there to receive it.
HARE KRSNA.
SG:1. Srila Prabhupada did not say the ritvik initiation must continue after his departure. There is no such
statement in his letter.
a) “Henceforward” is sufficent for us but not for Mudhas.
b) There was NO instruction from Srila Prabhupada to revoke the July 9th 1977 Order.
c) 1ST AND 2ND Initiations are FORMALITY INITIATIONS:
That is not very important thing.
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
SB 4.8.54 Purport:
Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
d) Ist and 2nd INITIATIONS come under System of Management:
THE SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT WILL CONTINUE AS IT IS NOW AND THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY CHANGE
Srila Prabhupada’s Will
2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. THE SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT WILL CONTINUE AS IT IS NOW AND THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY CHANGE
SG 2. Srila Prabhupada said the initiated names are to be sent to him. That was his instruction in his
letter. How does one do this if he is no longer there to receive it.
Note Srila Prabhupada’s SECRETARY entered the names in the His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.” It did NOT require VAPU(physical) presence of Srila Prabhupada to do this menial task. It is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
July 7, 1977, Vrndavana
TAMALA KRSNA: YOU KNOW THAT BOOK I’M MAINTAINING OF ALL OF YOUR DISCIPLES’ NAMES? SHOULD I CONTINUE THAT?
PRABHUPADA: HM.
TAMALA KRSNA: SO IF SOMEONE GIVES INITIATION, LIKE HARIKESA MAHARAJA, HE SHOULD SEND THE PERSON’S NAME TO US HERE AND I’LL ENTER IT IN THE BOOK. OKAY
SG. writes ; There are two points here –
1. Srila Prabhupada did not say the ritvik initiation must continue after his departure. There is no such
statement in his letter.
My answer ; SG. Prabhu , you must take into consideration all the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada where he intends and indicates that the Ritivik Initiation remains continue as long as it is necessary to carry on the mission of the Sankirtan movement of Srila Prabhupada set forth world wide. I have quoted it in my comments else where in this thread and so is Mahesh Raja Prabhu who also did quote extensively in this regard which you need to digest it after carefully reading it.
When you come to think about the Instructions of Srila Sukhdev Gosvami to Maharaja Prakshit reciting the Srimad Bhagavatam before all different types of the sages and Rishis, Munis, Tapasvi, Yogi etc. every one of them understood according to their personal level of understanding. What I mean is that, did they understand all of them that Shri Krishna is the Supreme Personality and His past time ? NO. Not at all. They all understood with their different level of understanding. Is that not a FACT ?
So, similarly the July 9th letter and Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions, everyone of US understand on our respective level of understanding duly controlled under the different Gunas. Is that also not a FACT ?
You have to realize the mood of Srila Prabhupada through the eyes of his over all Instructions in order to follow and accept them as it is. Otherwise any tiny personal motivation of some sort ( Prathistha) will taint the vision under the control of the Gunas without even your noticing it let alone admitting the fact of its outcome which leads to a chaos of all sorts as we see it.
2. Srila Prabhupada said the initiated names are to be sent to him. That was his instruction in his
letter. How does one do this if he is no longer there to receive it.
SG. Prabhbu, please read my further comments which I sent to Rocana dasa Prabhu and he refused to publish on his web site ;
BY Amar Puri, Montreal, Canada.
In his article http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-13/editorials9625.htm
Rocana dasa Prabhu writes ;
“ As one can easily see, Mahesh Raja’s argument above does not counter that fact in the least. His comments have nothing to do with the points made in DOR about sending names for the book, or with how that point was being discussed in the quoted exchange with Amar Puri. Regardless of what system was in place, the July 9th Letter says what it says: send the names to Srila Prabhupada — an instruction that indicates his presence as a participant in the process. That is the point, and Mahesh Raja has not countered it, nor has Amar Puri.”
Here below I reproduce my email exchange reply to Shriman Rocana dasa Prabhu’s objections mentioned above in his recent article to which he has never answered it thus far;
Dear Rocana Dasa Prabhu,
PAMHO. AGTSP. Hare Krishna.
Here below is my reply ;
“Your entire Ritvik-vada is based upon the notion that the
July 9th Letter instructs a post-samadhi ritvik diksa system. I say that
it does not, therefore Ritvik-vada is false.” -Rocana
My reply ; False. Our entire “Ritvik-vada” is based upon the notion that the July 9th Letter officially implements a Ritvik system of initiations within ISKCON. This system was set up by Srila Prabhupada while He was physiclaly still present ofcourse, but that fact alone cannot automatically limit the system to being effective only during His physical presence.
“Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th Letter laid out a process in which he was to be a participant, living, in his body — send names TO HIM for his book.” -Rocana
My reply ; Please show me where in the July 9th Letter it says that the names should be sent to “Him”. Allow me please to refresh your memmory:
“The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace”s “Initiated Disciples” book.” – Excerpt, July 9th Letter
Therefore, you have added to alter the meaning of the words “to Him, for His book” to best suit your agenda in your thesis DOR. Whereas the actual Letter only says “to be included in His book”. It never says plainly “to Him”. You will have to yet prove that adding names to His book required His physical presence. What kind of a misrepresentation is that, Prabhu ?
“No. The system he instructed in that letter was clearly NOT intended for after his departure. His own presence in the system proves that.” – Rocana
My reply ; This is based on your earlier statement that the names of the newly initiated disciples would be sent “to Him”, but as I have proved that the Letter said no such thing. Thus this is a strawman statement as it is based on a false pretense. I could not even imagine that a person of your status being a senior dedicated disciple of Srila Prabhupada would do such things.
“the pure devotee’s instructions in the letter cannot be followed when he is no longer present to participate in a system THAT HE DESIGNED TO INCLUDE HIMSELF AS AN ACTIVE PARTICIPATION.” – Rocana
My reply : Srila Prabhupada’s only involvement, according to you, was that the names of newly initiated disciples be sent to Him, but since the July 9th Letter said no such thing, we can discard the above statement of yours as well because you altered it to mislead the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada to make your point in order to simply cheat and misguide me. What a shame ? Why did you do that Prabhu ?
“So who gave you permission, Amar Puri, to decide that the system will be changed upon his departure so that names get sent to someone else? Or not sent? Or whatever?” – Rocana
My reply : We only argue that the names be sent exactly where the Letter orders them to be sent – to Srila Prabhupada’s Initiated Disciples book.
Thus, with all due respect, Rocana Prabhu, I would like to return your questions back to you: From where do you get your concocted theory, and Who gave you permission to change the specific, explicit instructions of the Pure Devotee. ?????
Looking forward to hear further from you. Hari BOL.
Yours insignificant servant,
Amar Puri.
Mahesh Raja says:
28. January 2013 at 6:57 pm
SG:1. Srila Prabhupada did not say the ritvik initiation must continue after his departure. There is no such
statement in his letter.
MR — a) “Henceforward” is sufficient for us but not for Mudhas.
SG — The reason for “henceforward” is given already in the letter itself.
” In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to SRILA PRABHUPADA, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”
Where in the letter is it explained that “henceforward” is to mean to continue ritvik initiation post samadhi?
MR — b) There was NO instruction from Srila Prabhupada to revoke the July 9th 1977 Order.
SG — Srila Prabhupada has specified in his letter that the initiated names are to be sent to him knowing very well that without his physical presence this order cannot be carried out.
MR — c) 1ST AND 2ND Initiations are FORMALITY INITIATIONS: d) Ist and 2nd INITIATIONS come under System of Management:
SG — So, now 1st and 2nd initiations has become FORMALITY INITIATIONS and not RITVIK INITIATIONS and it now falls under a System of Management. So, tell us, what does this mean now. ??
SG 2. Srila Prabhupada said the initiated names are to be sent to him. That was his instruction in his
letter. How does one do this if he is no longer there to receive it.
MR — Note Srila Prabhupada’s SECRETARY entered the names in the His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.” It did NOT require VAPU(physical) presence of Srila Prabhupada to do this menial task. It is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
SG — Did Srila Prabhupada made such a statement in his July 9th letter ” It did NOT require VAPU(physical) presence”.?
MR – July 7, 1977, Vrndavana
TAMALA KRSNA: YOU KNOW THAT BOOK I’M MAINTAINING OF ALL OF YOUR DISCIPLES’ NAMES? SHOULD I CONTINUE THAT?
PRABHUPADA: HM.
TAMALA KRSNA: SO IF SOMEONE GIVES INITIATION, LIKE HARIKESA MAHARAJA, HE SHOULD SEND THE PERSON’S NAME TO US HERE AND I’LL ENTER IT IN THE BOOK. OKAY.
SG — If that be the case why didn’t Srila Prabhupada place Tamal Krsna’s name or any other senior disciple’s name in the July 9th letter to receive the initiated names on his behalf to enter in his “Initiated Disciples” book? Why did he place his name in the letter.?
The point here is that the ritviks have been shouting out loud to everyone that one should follow Srila Prabupada’s instructions but they themselves do not follow. In the July 9th letter, Srila Prabhupada gave a direct and specific instruction that the initiated names are to be sent to him. And since Srila Prabhupada is no longer physical present to receive it, this instruction can no longer be carried out. Once Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence ends, his personal secretary’s duties also ends. But the ritviks don’t seem to understand this simple thing. They interpret it to mean that the initiated names was actually for his personal secretary Tamal Krsna and not for Srila Prabhupada giving the impression that Srila Prabhupada had no idea what he was doing and did not know what he was saying. The task of recording the initiated names in Srila Prahupada’s “Initiated Disciples” book would have been part of his secretarial duties while Srila Prabhupada was present but it was not mentioned in the letter that Tamal Krsna was to continue with this task after Srila Prabhupada departure nor was there any mention of this post samadhi ritvik initiation. This is a concoction by those misguided so called ritviks.
And here is a quote from George A. Smith’s earlier posting, which just about sums it up about the ritviks.
” BY: GEORGE A. SMITH
Dec 31, 2011 — CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) — The Rtviks, like so many others before them, have invested their beliefs in a system that they have not bothered to subject to critical examination to the degree that it
must be subjected to in order for any intelligent and rational person to accept it.
That they compound this error in judgment by treating anyone who poses intelligent questions to them, or
challenges them to produce strong logical arguments and convincing proof in defense of their position, with
anger and vicious attempts at character assassination suggests that we are dealing with both blind faith
fanatics and with those who, although they have no actual belief in the Rtvik position themselves, adopt
such a platform because it is expedient to the furtherance of their own private agendas.”
HARE KRSNA.
SG Prabhu seems like he is in the deep sleep meditating on some body physically presence guru to continue the Diksha by any body and every body who are rubber stamped to accept disciples in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon where as Srila Prabhupada prohibits such activities in His Iskcon. Further more, it has been extensively explained and discussed numerous times on every thread on this web site about the Initiating System of Instructions Srila Prabhupada has given to his followers in order to continue the mission. To my surprize, SG Prabhu still continues his same rebuttals again and again such as ;
SG — Srila Prabhupada has specified in his letter that the initiated names are to be sent to him knowing very well that without his physical presence this order cannot be carried out.
I have given this reply many times not only on this web site but to the particular author of the DOR. Rocana dasa Prabhu as well. No body has ever objected to that answer.
These are some of the examples of the Mudas as Shriman Mahesh Raja Prabhu writes ; ” MR — a) “Henceforward” is sufficient for us but not for Mudhas. ” to which I one hundred percent agree with it.
My humble advise to SG. Prabhu and others is that please read carefully the Initiating system of Instructions every where in ITS ENTIRETY as Srila Prabhupada has instructed numerous times in order to arrive at the proper CONCLUSION without any motivated interpretation.
Hope this meets every body well.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL……..
YS………Amar Puri.
Amar Puri lies sarcastically;” SG Prabhu seems like he is in the deep sleep meditating on some body physically presence guru to continue the Diksha by any body and every body who are rubber stamped to accept disciples in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon where as Srila Prabhupada prohibits such activities in His Iskcon.”
Lie after lie, since SG never said this nonsense Amar puri the liar blunderer says. How do you think it “… to continue diksha by anybody..” Where, clearly where SG said so, try AP just for a second find out what is hearing while chanting, so step by step you discover the mind to be not you my dear. Don’t lie ritviks!
“SG:1. Srila Prabhupada did not say the ritvik initiation must continue after his departure. There is no such statement in his letter.”
In the document signed as approved by His Divine Grace. It is also not mentioned that ritvik initiations must continue from whenever the recipient receives the document – until His Divine Grace’s departure from our material vision. Yet that seems to be SG’s acceptable chosen time frame, why do you think this is acceptable when the document doesn’t say so? (Hint:) There is no such statement in his letter!
When understanding an instruction we also have to understand the motivation behind such an instruction. His Divine Grace sets out a process whereby devotees would be accepted as
Part of that process is that
For the process to have the desired result there has to be synchronicity. The time frame given for the initial phase of the process is henceforward. Thus this henceforward time-frame, governs the mode of the desired process, as a whole.
Bhakta Jarek, it is NOT a LIE when I said that ” ” SG Prabhu seems like he is in the deep sleep meditating on some body physically presence guru to continue the Diksha by any body and every body who are rubber stamped to accept disciples in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon where as Srila Prabhupada prohibits such activities in His Iskcon.”
Bhakta Jarek, the above is simply my inference how I perceived the message of SG. Prabhu. I am a conditioned soul and my senses are subject to the four defects. The same is with you Bhakta Jarek and SG. Prabhu and so on. So where is the LIE ? Don’t be so quick to finger point and mislead the readers. That is not an intelligent person like yourself should behave accusing others out of your ignorance and arrogance .
Your comments or SG comments would have been more appreciated IF you could have addressed them in order for meaningful discussion. I have not even seen any of your comments addressing the actual discussion of subject matter EVER. Your comments are always finger pointing at others who are trying to contribute something meaningful for better understanding the subject under discussion.
It should behove you as such either you contribute meaningful or else STOP finger pointing at others who are genuinely trying to share their knowledge based on the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
Hope it finds you well Bhakta Jarek.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS…….. Amar Puri.
Amar Puri and Bhakta Hugh have given appropriate answers to SG but because Anti Ritvik people like SG,George A smith,Bhakta Jarek, Rocana etc are situated in the Tamo Guna (mode of ignorance) they can not be expected to understand Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru for as long as his Books exist on this planet:
740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guna, they cannot. (French)
750523cc.mel Conversations
Prabhupada: Therefore in Bhagavad-gita it is said, idam te na atapaskaya. Those who have no life of penance and austerities, don’t talk with them. It will be a waste of time. You know that there is verse in the Bhagavad-gita? In Eighteenth Chapter. Idam te na atapaskaya, mam ca yah abhyasuyati: “Persons who are envious of Me and those who have not undergone austerity and penances, don’t talk with them.” But we take the risk. We go even to these rascals. Because for Krsna’s sake, “Never mind, it will take some time. Let me try this rascal.” Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Krsna, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy. So far argument, logic, philosophy is concerned, they are beyond… Because they are animal. They cannot understand.
Devotee (2): You have it’s just like when someone has jaundice and he sees everything as yellow and you cannot convince him if something is white.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the…
Devotee (2): He must become purified.
Prabhupada: So therefore, the treatment is, some way or other, induce them to come and chant and dance with us and take prasadam. This program should be accelerated.
Srutakirti: Spiritual life starts with the tongue.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is… Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau.
Devotee (3): Like, Srila Prabhupada, the solicitor there last night. When I first made contact with him, he took two days to think about it whether he would act for us or not. And now, through association, he’s becoming more purified, stopped eating meat, stopped smoking cigarettes, and now he likes us very much.
Prabhupada: He is being purified himself?
Devotee (3):. Yes.
Prabhupada: So we have to take little patience. That is preaching work. Don’t be impatient. Let us do our duty on behalf of Krsna. Even the result is not very appreciable, still we have to do it. This is preaching. Just like Nityananda Prabhu. He was hurt by Jagai-Madhai. Still, He determined, “No, these two boys must be delivered.” This is the example. “Never mind, they have injured Me; still, I shall deliver them.” And He did it. They became Vaisnava. So our preaching determination should be like that, not that we are failure in some cases, and therefore give it up. No. This is our business. We must go on doing this. Failure or success, it doesn’t matter. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said to preach. He never said, “If you are failure, don’t preach.” Never said that. Yare dekha, tare kaha krsna-upadesa: “Whomever you meet, you just give him the instruction of Krsna.” He never says that “If somebody does not hear you, don’t do it.” No. Krsna said that “Don’t talk with the fools and rascals and those who are not undergone some penances.”
Krsna said. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu is so kind. He said, “To everyone say.”
Srutakirti: So we are following Lord Caitanya’s…
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like I came to western country with no hope. I knew that my Godbrother, Bon Maharaja, came, he failed. Then Gosvami Maharaja was there, so many swamis and yogis came here, nobody could turn them. So I came here just with a purpose, “Let me try.” But I was not hopeful at all. But Krsna’s grace, it is now successful.
Devotee (1): A great success.
Prabhupada: And therefore let us try. And success, no success, depend on Krsna.
SG was unable to debate with me, even admitting that he didn’t think what was going on here on this forum was a debate but a “discussion”. He became angry after I took him to task and pointed out that one of the definitions of a discussion is a debate, and how most people would characterize 2 people putting forth different arguments in order to decide on what is true is a debate. He became angry and said the most vile things about me. I guess when I pointed out that he was not using logic and reason, I was right, as what reasonable person says vicious things about another person instead of addressing their points?
So here he is again.
The real problem is that this forum is not a place of debate. SG was right, although unwittingly and unconsciously.
A true debate is entered into by 3 parties. 2 debaters and a third they choose as an authority. The authority moderates the debate, and holds the debaters to the task of using logic and reason to come to a conclusion. The debater whose argument is conclusive to the truth is the “winner”. And the “loser” wins also because they are sincere enough to realize they were in error and happy to accept the winner as an authority and teacher in that moment. In vedic times, if you challenged someone and were defeated by them, you were obligated by custom and society to become their student for some time.
So if you all hadn’t noticed, there has not been one person in the history of internet forums who took an ANTI RITVIK STAND and later converted. Because not one of them was looking for the truth. They were already certain they knew the truth, and when logical and reasonable arguments were put forth, they had the free will to ignore them. Because there is no one to force them to be honorable. They can still retreat to the nearest Iskcon temple and get a free meal and wash some bogi yogi’s feet to stay in the game.
Just hoping that this little reality check will serve to keep all of you stalwart loyalists realistic and reduce any expectations you might have that losers like SG will ever realize that losing can mean winning.
Hare Krsna
I do sincerely hope that these Sadharan Jivas such as, Bhakta George, Bhakta Jarek and SG and so on may learn something out of the conversation of Srila Prabhupada quoted by Shriman Mahesvera Dasa Prabhu.
I appreciate and thank very much Mahesvera dasa Prabhu for sharing always such wonderful quote of Srila Prabhupada.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL….
YS… Amar Puri.