Bhima Prabhu: Offerings to the Deity through the via medium of disciplic succession

Some years ago, an older godbrother who had been initiated at the same time as myself by Hansadutta in 1978, came to visit from Vrindaban, where he had been residing (and resides there still). After Hansadutta was ousted from ISKCON and since the falldown of many ISKCON gurus since, for a time this devotee took shelter under a babaji there in the Holy Dham. Over the years he mixed with ISKCON gurus and devotees and those outside ISKCON as well, including Gaudiya Math devotees. When we were visiting Vrindaban, we wanted to place an order for deity dresses, and he came highly recommended for his beautiful designs, so we renewed our acquaintence with him in this way, and some time later, after we had relocated to a new address in Singapore and were preparing to worship Sri Sri Radha Govinda Gopal, he announced that he would be coming to Singapore for a visit and that he would perform a special fire sacrifice for our center.


So it was that he came to Singapore. One day, while we were offering aratrik, he pointed out that we were offering out of proper sequence. He remarked that this was also done all wrong in ISKCON, and that we should follow how it is done in the Gaudiya Math temples: first to Krishna, then to Radha, then to Lord Chaitanya, then to Nityananda, then back down through the parampara and finally to the spiritual master. The idea, he said, was that we cannot offer bhoga to the spiritual master; everything must be offered first to Krishna, and then after it has become prasadam, then only it is offered to the spiritual master.

We could not accept his advice, however, understanding from Srila Prabhupada’s books and instructions that in deity worship, as in everything that we undertake in devotional service, we have to remember and ask for the blessings of the parampara, beginning with the spiritual master, on up to his spiritual master, then to his spiritual master, all the way up to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord. How is it posssible for us to directly approach Krishna? That idea goes against the basic principle of spiritual life, as taught by Srila Prabhupada.

Here are citations from Srila Prabhupada’s letters and lectures, showing what Srila Prabhupada taught:

Letter to Tamal Krsna, Los Angeles, 15 May 1970

So Krsna when He is with His brother and sister, He is Jagannatha, and when He is with His village girl-friends that is Radha-Krsna with Gopis. So Whomever you worship, it is the same, but if you like to worship Jagannanth you can continue it and it is as good as worshiping Radha-Krsna. Krsna has so many forms, and which ever form you worship it is all the same, but you should worship that form which you like most.

Regarding the means of worship, our Vaisnava process is first offer respects to the Spiritual Master, then Lord Caitanya, and then Lord Krsna. Vyasa is the Spiritual Master, therefore the Spiritual Master is the representative of Vyasa. Therefore the Spiritual Master’s seat is called “Vyasasana.”

Letter to Himavati, Los Angeles, 1 April 1970

Regarding taking Lord Jagannatha to your next center, that will not be very good because you already do not have enough devotees to engage in Arcana. Unless there is a Deity worshipper available, we may worship Panca-tattva and Guru. That can be done by all initiated students whether they are once or twice initiated. Before an altar with pictures of Lord Caitanya, Pancatattva and Acaryas, everyone can offer Aratrik and Bhoga.

Yes, it is nice that you are worshiping Lord Caitanya along with Radha Krsna. That is alright. Lord Caitanya should be placed to the right side of Krsna. There is nothing special for His worship, but you may continue as you are doing now. The order of worshiping is first Spiritual Master, and then Lord Caitanya, then Radha Krsna (as in the mantras or Bunde aham prayer).

Your confidence to do whatever you are instructed by the Spiritual Master is very encouraging. Yes, this is the method of the Vedic injunction, staunch faith in Spiritual Master and Krsna makes one perfect in spiritual understanding.

lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.10, Los Angeles, Jun 23, 1975

Therefore our first duty is to worship Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We keep the Deity. In the first we offer our obeisances to Caitanya Mahaprabhu along with His associate, and then, Guru-Gauranga, then we offer Radha-Krishna or Jagannatha.

lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.2, London, Aug 10, 1971

We begin from our first disciplic succession. Vande ‘ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaishnavamsh cha. Vande ‘ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam. “I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my guru, spiritual master.” Vande ‘ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaishnavamsh cha. And then, his guru, his guru, his guru, they’re all Vaishnavas. Vande ‘ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaishnavamsh cha. Sri-rupam. Then we offer respect to Sri Rupa Gosvami. Rupa Gosvami. Vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau. All the Gosvamis, six Gosvamins. Vande rupa-sanatana… Sagraja. Sa agraja. Agraja means elder brother. Sanatana Gosvami was the elder brother of Rupa Gosvami, and Rupa Gosvami accepted him as his spiritual master. Sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam. Associated by Raghunatha. There are two Raghunathas: Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami. Sa-jivam, with Jiva Gosvami. This is the process. Vande ‘ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaishnavamsh cha sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam. Then we go to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s status: sadvaitam savadhutam. That is also… First of all, Advaita Gosañi, then Nityananda Mahaprabhu, Prabhu. Mahaprabhu is applicable only to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Others, all prabhus. Ekale ishvara krishna ara saba bhritya [Chaitanya-charitamrita Adi 5.142]. Krishna, and He has got innumerable servants. Krishna is Mahaprabhu, and all others, they are prabhus. And the spiritual master who has got many prabhus to abide by his order, he is addressed as Prabhupada. This is the system. So sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krishna-chaitanya-devam. After offering all these obeisances to Gosvamis, to guru, and Advaita, Nityananda, then you come to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Then Sri Radha. Not Krishna directly. Sri-radha-krishna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-vishakhanvitamsh cha. Radha-Krishna means they are always associated by the gopis, of whom Lalita-Vishakha are the chief out of the ashta-sakhis.

So this is the parampara system.

lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.4, Rome, May 28, 1974

This is the parampara system. As you get knowledge, step by step… Krishna is the original spiritual master, and then from Krishna, Lord Brahma learned the Vedic knowledge. Tene brahma hrida adi-kavaye [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.1]. In the Bhagavata it is said that “Wherefrom Brahma got his knowledge?” Because whenever we want to get knowledge, we must approach a superior person to get knowledge. Tad-vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. Guru means superior. So who was the superior person when Brahma got knowledge? Because there was no other creature. He is the first creature. Therefore it is said, “The superior person was Krishna, but He was not present.” We see, Krishna was present before Arjuna, but nobody was present before Brahma. Therefore it is said, tene brahma hrida adi-kavaye, hrida: “through the heart.” Because Krishna is situated in everyone’s heart. Actually, He is the spiritual master, chaitya-guru. So in order to help us, He comes out as physical spiritual master. And therefore sakshad-dharitvena sama… Spiritual master is representative of Krishna. Krishna sends some sincere devotee to act on His behalf, and therefore he is spiritual master.

So this is the parampara system. As you receive knowledge step by step… Narayana, Krishna, instructed Vyasadeva. Brahma, Brahma instructed Narada. Narada instructed Vyasadeva. Vyasadeva instructed his disciple Madhvacarya. In this way we have to go through also, in the same way. First of all, offer respect to the spiritual master, as he has done to Shukadeva Gosvami. Tam vyasa-sunum upayami gurum muninam. So then his spiritual master, then his spiritual master, then his spiritual master, then his spiritual master. Just like you have got the pictures. First of all, your spiritual master, then his spiritual master, then his spiritual master, his spiritual master, his spiritual master – ultimately Krishna. This is the process. Don’t try to approach Krishna directly, jump over. That is useless. As you receive knowledge through the steps, parampara system, similarly, we should approach Krishna through these steps.

Caitanya-Bhagavata Madhya Kanda, Ch 20, Text 6-9
TEXT: At that time Murari Gupta came there and offered obeisances at the lotus feet of the Lord. The greatly effulgent Murari Gupta next offered obeisances to Nityananda and then stood before Them. The Lord was very pleased with Murari, so He spoke to him without duplicity, “O Murari, what you have just done is not proper. You have transgressed etiquette while offering obeisances.

PURPORT: Murari Gupta offered obeisances first to Lord Gaurasundara and then to Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Objecting to the sequence of Murari Gupta’s obeisances, Mahaprabhu told him, “You have a misconception regarding Baladeva’s senior position and My own junior position. Especially since you are a devotee of Sri Balarama. The conclusion is that if the Supreme Lord is worshipped without first worshiping Sri Guru and Jagad Guru, the proper sequence is broken.” In common language there is a saying: ghoda dingaiya ghasa khaite nai—”One should not jump over the horse to eat the grass.” Without the mercy of Sri Guru, no one is qualified to serve the Supreme Lord.

Now, so many years later, we see that ISKCON centers have changed the process of deity worship, adopting the sequence that is practiced in Gaudiya Math temples. Not all ISKCON temples. Apparently ISKCON in Los Angeles is still offering in the order beginning with Srila Prabhupada on up through the parampara to Lord Chaitanya and then to Sri Sri Rukmini Dvarakadisa. Lately one Gaura Keshava das claims credit for ISKCON’s change in deity worship. He’s a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and supposedly ISKCON GBCs and gurus have recognized his  knowledge of shastra, and have called on him to help counter rittvik propaganda and also to perform ghost-busting yajñas for ghostly-haunted gurus, among other duties. We recently received this email (dated 29 March 2009, in which Gaura Kesava mentions his role in ISKCON’s switcheroo:

…do we follow Srila Prabhupada’s personal example or the sastra that he gave us???

My contention is that we must follow the sastra that he has given us, and we must not imitate his personal example when it does not technically follow sastra.

So the system of arotik in all Gaudiya Vaisnava temples is to first pay obeisance to the guru and take his permission for worhshiping Lord Krsna. Then worship Krsna first and then Radha then Mahaprabhu and the guru parampara in descending (senior to junior) order, lastly the arotik items are to be offered to the assembled devotees. In ISKCON Srila Prabhupada instituted another order offering the items to the guru first. In this case the item cannot technically be offered afterwards to the Lord having first been enjoyed by the guru. This is technically not correct. Therefore we must in this case follow sastra and adapt our worship method to the one followed by all Vaisnava sampradayas. The doctrine or principle of worshiping the guru first is correct but the technicality of HOW that is to be done is incorrect.

By the way this system is followed in most temples in Europe where I standardized the deity worship in the 1980’s. It is not followed in some temples like LA because some Prabhupada disciples find it difficult to accept and they have no experience of the correct technical details as practiced in India.

sincerely

Gaura Keshava das

This is wrong. The guru does not “enjoy” the item for himself. We offer to him, because he is the via medium. The entire parampara is the via medium, transparent window to Sri Krishna. We cannot go before Krishna face to face and hand over directly to Him whatever it is we are trying to offer Him. We offer to the spiritual master, who passes it on to his spiritual master, who in turn passes it to his, and so on, all the way back up through the line of disciplic succession to Sri Krishna. If the spiritual master is a liberated person – and this is the verdict of shastra – then he is always situated in the mode of service, not enjoyment; he is free from desire for personal sense gratification or enjoyment, thinking only how to please his spiritual master and the Supreme Lord.

Moreover, we are confident that Srila Prabhupada has not contradicted shastra. His scholarship was unparalleled – throughout his books and lectures and conversations he freely cited passages from so many different sources – the Upanishads, Puranas, Vedanta Sutras, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, Brahma-samhita, Chaitanya-charitamrita, Chaitanya Bhagavata, the writings of the Six Gosvamis – all of which were known and familiar to him. So to suggest that he did not know what was in shastra is ridiculous and impudent.

And then too, we have to bear in mind what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has said:

“Thakur Bhaktivinode” by His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur

What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee.

We confess that we are not familiar with the shastra which Gaura Keshava thinks Srila Prabhupada has contradicted or has not followed. But we are familiar with Srila Prabhupada’s warning that the disciple should not think himself smarter than the spiritual master, that he should remain a fool before him. We wonder if Gaura Keshava is not fallen into the category of the smarta-brahmanas, those who are attached to the rules and regulations and flowery language of the Vedas but miss the principle of humble obedience and service to the pure devotee.

Morning Walk, Mayapur, Apr 8, 1975

A disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila shashana [Chaitanya-charitamrita Adi 7.71]: “My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me.” So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect – he’s to be chastised – then he’s perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he’s nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. [Break] …always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he’s a foolish. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi: “My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one.” Was He fool number one? He’s God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he’s perfect.

A disciple’s position is to simply accept Srila Prabhupada’s instructions and teachings as the yardstick for everything, and reject anything and anyone who does not agree with what Srila Prabhupada has spoken. If Gaura Keshava does not accept the absolute authority of Srila Prabhupada, but only that of shastras, then we have to conclude that he presumes to be more intelligent and more knowledgeable than Srila Prabhupada.

We are not going to follow such a person, for where he’s going is not where Srila Prabhupada is. As for ISKCON GBCs, who have implemented Gaura Keshava’s recommendations, either they have not read Srila Prabhupada’s books and letters or heard his lectures, or they do not have faith in them.

But then, we have to remember that all this talk of changing the deity worship took place around the time when Bhavananda was outed for having homosexual relations with various consenting adults as well as with gurukuli boys. Naturally the question came up whether his disciples should offer first to him or to Krishna and then to him, and it was decided (by ISKCON GBC) that he should not be offered bhoga, but only prasadam, for his own good. Later Bhavananda was demoted from guru status, but the policy remained for the other ISKCON gurus, just to keep them “safe”. So much for all that advertisement and self promotion about them being pure devotees and liberated souls.

We agree that the ISKCON gurus are not in a position to receive and pass on the offering up the parampara. Especially in light of their neglect and defiance of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions given in his letter of July 9th, 1977, wherein Srila Prabhupada designated eleven rittvik representatives of the Acharya to initiate disciples on his behalf “henceforward”. Srila Prabhupada did not appoint any of his disciples to become gurus or acharyas. So none of the ISKCON gurus were authorized by Srila Prabhupada to become gurus and take on disciples. How, then, can they represent Srila Prabhupada and the entire disciplic succession? How can they connect us to Srila Prabhupada when they have disregarded his arrangement and have not received the order from him to initiate?

But this does not mean that the process of deity worship must be changed. It means that devotees must get it straight who is representing the parampara. It means that devotees should be offering first to Srila Prabhupada.

March 31st, 2009 by Bhima das

Comments

  1. Mahesh Raja says:

    OFFERING PRASADAM PROCESS

    Our process for offering prasadam is to say three times each of the following prayers:

    1
    nama-om-visnu-padaya-krsna-presthya-bhu-tale
    srimate-BHAKTIVEDANTA-svamin-iti-namine

    namas-te-SARASVATE-deve-gaura-vani-pracarine
    nirvisesa-suniyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine

    2
    namo-maha-vadanyaya
    Krsna-prema-pradaya te
    Krsnaya Krsna-caitanya-
    namine gaura-tvise namah

    3
    namo brahmanya-devaya
    go-brahamana-hitya ca
    jagad-dithaya Krsnaya
    govindaya namo namah

    68-02-15 Letter: Jadurani
    Regarding offering food: The custom is to offer the foodstuff first to the Spiritual Master; we cannot do anything directly. The Spiritual Master accepts the offering on behalf of his disciple, and offers the same to
    Krishna. After Krishna’s eating, the Spiritual Master eats it, and then the devotees take it as Mahaprasada. This is the system. Everything is offered to the Spiritual Master first, with the prayer “Nama Om Visnupadaya . . .”
    If, in the cooking process, food falls on the floor, if it is raw and can be washed nicely, then it can be offered. But if it is prepared and cannot be washed, then it is not to be offered, but can be eaten rather than be wasted.

    68-03-22.Letter: Balai
    Yes, you may say the prayer to the Spiritual Master 3 times, and also the Namo Brahmanya . . . prayer 3 times, when offering Prasadam. That is very nice to say the mantra 3 times. Also, you may, after offering to the Spiritual Master, offer to Lord Caitanya by saying the prayer, Namo Maha Badanyaya . . . 3 times, and then offer to Krishna thrice.

    68-05-28 HARER NAMA
    So when we chant prayers, we do this, Bande ham Sri Guru . . . and gradually to the Goswamis, then to Lord Caitanya, and then to Radha Krishna. That is the praying system. BUT OFFERING THE PRASADAM TO PRESENT EVERYTHING BEFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER WHOSE PICTURE IS ALSO IN THE ALTAR, MEANS THAT THE SPIRITUAL MASTER WILL TAKE CARE OF OFFERING THE FOODSTUFF TO THE LORD. THEREFORE SIMPLY BY CHANTING THE PRAYER TO THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, EVERYTHING WILL BE COMPLETE.

  2. abhaya carana seva das says:

    pamho agtACBSP,SAYANA EKADASI KI JAI

    Almost everywhere nowadays people started to wake up generally to the real principle of the guru tattva, this is the power of the vani seva of SRILA PRABHUPADA saved in HIS daily reading of HIS books. Of course the first generation of Hare Krsna was completely rotten when SRILA PRABHUPADA came in usa to rescue them, that’s why bhavananda jaya tirtha kirtanananda and many others rascals guided by tamala asura got seriously injured by departing from this world of living dead more dead then before i mean in a very bad situation. Actually the lusty desire of bhavananda are still out of the normal standard he used to have sex also with those unclean vrija basi with the bad smell of onions coming out of their mouths, is gone mad because of guror avajna sruti sastra nindanam padma purana continuous offences to the lotus feet of SRILA PRABHUPADA by disobeying to the order of the guru make the soul crazy in the way out of the unlimited waves of lust desire.

    SRILA PRABHUPADA gave the right name to everyone through HIS eternal vision of tri kala jnana beyond the influences of the polluted factor time in the material world, i mean is not the case that they got the name of jaya pataka etc, there is meaning beyond those name because SRILA PRABHUPADA could see that jaya pataka was going to do a show of his flag that’s the meaning of jaya pataka. SRILA PRABHUPADA never done thing by case because HE is still connected to the param brahman by being a brahma nistham since HIS physical presence in mrityu loka without been disturbed at all by dehino smin yatha dehe that’s the real dhira tatra na muhyati. HE also used to say that nobody lamenting when the body is dead HIS consciousness used to be always in SRI VRINDAVAN DHAM and not trapped through a physical body because HE was see that body already dead. Ordinary people get reincarnated continuosly in the bodily concept of life because they don’t use it in the constant service of SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA, like all these guru hoaxers in f-iskcon they are running in the wrong direction therefore they also are trapped in that bodily concept of life. Then there are those who can’t hide their horrible bad habits like bhavananda and all the aparampara wretches coming from all these temporary kangoorus.

    Anyway everyone got the right punishment until now and this is the proof that the original Hare Krsna movement is with SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA and not with all these nasty usurpers of the transcendental position of SRILA PRABHUPADA

    agtSP ys haribol

  3. Amar Puri says:

    I just wish to share with the Readers that I have read it some where ( I can not recall at this time where I read it ) that Narayana Maharaja who claimed and declared himself to be the successor of Srila Prabhupada has said to many of his followers about the process of offering the Prasadam taught by Swamiji as he used to address Srila Prabhupada is not the right way according to the Gaudiya maths tradition.

    Swamiji simply taught to his followers the Prayers as quoted by Mahesh Prabhu in his comments which is not the right way to offer the Prasadam to the Deity and so many people who were following Srila Prabhupada before were listening what Narayana Maharaja had to teach and preach them.

    So many of Srila Prabhupada’s followers have been misguided. One of the prominent follower is Mata Jadurani. I am sure she went with Narayana Maharaja not only to follow him but to seek certain position in his organization which she could not find in the present Iskcon due to gbc bogus gurus manipulation.

    I have no idea what is her position now whether her wish has been fulfilled or NOT.

    Hari BOL. AGTSP.

  4. Dwaipayana ACBSP says:

    I just wish to comment that the shastra referred to by Gaura Keshava, is (among others) the Hari-bhakti-vilas by Gopal Batta Gosvami and Srila Sanatan Gosvami. This book was written to standardise (among many other principals) Achana- the process of Deity worship- for the Gaudia Vaishnavas, the followers of the six Gosvamis.
    To follow these injunctions properly cannot be claimed to be jumping over the guru, or approaching Krishna directly, because it is only by the mercy of the (bonafide) guru that we are connected by sampradaya to the gosvamis and their shastra.
    And, as Gaura Keshava explaned, the process is to first ask permission from the guru to approach/offer to Krishna……

  5. Mahesh Raja says:

    Dwaipayana ACBSP:I just wish to comment that the shastra referred to by Gaura Keshava…

    Mahesh: Gaura Keshava is NOT our authority. Srila Prabhupada IS. Aside from that, the man is PAID by the bogus gbc to inflate the concoction that their rubber-stamped gurus (demons) are bonafide diksa gurus. Gaura Kesava also took REINITIATION from babaji of another Sampradaya in South India hence, we REJECT him as CRAZY man.

    Suggest you first read and understand our articles before you try and prop-up Gaura Keshava:

    Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Physically Present Diksa Guru

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42978#comment-31641

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42978#comment-31834

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    WHEN I order

    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42978#comment-31480

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Become Guru by Order, That’s All

    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living

    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43453#more-43453

    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON

    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Prabhupada: RTVIK, YES.

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=39834#comment-28208

    Ritvik System is Bonafide

    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

  6. Balaram das says:

    Here Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada clearly states the madhyama-adhikari can ONLY perform the ‘initial duties of diksa’ ie ritvik ceremonial function!…….

    Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?

    Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.

    Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?

    Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.

    Quoted from August 8th 1934, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Q&A with Sriyukta Rajendranath Pal Chaudhuri Mahasaya, the famous Zamindar of Louhajang.

  7. Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:

    Good points Mahesh Raj and Balarama Prabhus.

    The Gold (and Platinum standard) should be accepted above any other miscreant ”boof-head” speculators who contradict our Guru Varga. Only a complete fool and reprobate would attempt to minimize the clear instructions of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Maharaja Prabhupada by presenting their own foolish notions.

    Because such rascals have no genuine love for The Supreme Lord and only wish to become pretenders, thieves and whore-mongers, they are always trying to invent some nonsense, in an attempt to minimize the the position of The Acharya in a vain attempt to justify their own selfish, greedy desire for name, fame and adoration at the expense of others. One ONLY contradicts the Acharyas at their own peril!

    Daso Smi

    Sudarsana

  8. If you ask many devotees about offering the bhoga to deities ,the reply may be that older devotees do not know that the sequence is changed…Devotees may call this the “new way” without thinking carefully…It is like some foreign agent has descended to take over devotees mind and tell that there is a new way without the thinking process of asking did Prabhupada authorize this? and on so many issues devotees are taught not to ask questions..Especially they may be ostracized if they ask many questions

  9. I have always thought that if we offer foodstuffs with devotion then we must follow the sequence of Srila Prabhupada’s training…If we change the method then Krsna may not accept and bhoga is the result..This explains how many restaurants and temples have such a hard time in making devotees because the best weapon in prasadam is compromised and ruined….a devotee calls this Ravana’s food…and Krsna is very angry with those who are changing everything that Prabhupada gave us

  10. Mahesh Raja says:

    dharma: I have always thought that if we offer foodstuffs with devotion then we must follow the sequence of Srila Prabhupada’s training…If we change the method then Krsna may not accept and bhoga is the result..

    Mahesh: this is WHY they are becoming MATERIALISTS. Eat bhoga: become bhogis(materialists) They can not see beyond pound,pence,dollar,cent. All they see is “I” “ME” and “MINE”. They have REJECTED Srila Prabhupada Krsna’s Representative THE Diksa Guru and the Ritvik System he gave as per his Order July 9th 1977 this is FALLDOWN : result is they are going to take birth and death and circulate in 8 MILLION 400,000 species of life forms again and again and again in MANY MANY MANY planets AND Universes. What an incredible WASTE of human life:

    Bg 9.3 T The Most Confidential Knowledge

    asraddadhanah purusa
    dharmasyasya parantapa
    aprapya mam nivartante
    mrtyu-samsara-vartmani

    SYNONYMS
    asraddadhanah–those who are faithless; purusah–such persons; dharmasya–of this process of religion; asya–of it; parantapa–O killer of the enemies; aprapya–without obtaining; mam–Me; nivartante–come back; mrtyu–death; samsara–material existence; vartmani–on the path of.

    TRANSLATION
    Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world.

    760208SB.MAY Lectures
    Don’t take it very insignificantly. We should be very much careful. OTHERWISE THERE IS FALLDOWN, AND ONCE FALLDOWN MEANS A GAP OF MILLIONS OF YEARS. You have got this human form of life to complete Krsna consciousness, but if you are not serious, THEN AGAIN THE GAP WILL BE MILLIONS OF YEARS.

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