httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5TzBTL3BnM
video: Lecture by Yashoda Nandana Das
Published on May 24, 2013
Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON Bangalore is one of the most popular ISKCON Temples in the world. It is dedicated towards spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world. It is one of most visited spots in Bangalore. Through this website we wish to discuss about the progressive developments taking place in the organization and its affiliates, its activities and festivals, upcoming events, philosophical aspects of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, various preaching programs, etc. This website is also intended to get people connected to this organization and to Krishna consciousness at large. www.iskconbangalore.org
Therefore we have to follow our Acarya, acaryopasanam, and do not transgress the injunctions of śastra, guru and sadhu by concocting things like the ritvik on demand scam since:”They becomes purified according to śāstra. Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī gives direction, tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām. By dīkṣā-vidhāna, by proper initiation, any person can attain the stage of dvijatvam. So our method is not against the śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. If we give up the direction of the śāstra, then we are faulty. If we do not deviate the injunctions of the śāstra… Sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya tinete kariyā aikya. In the śāstra it is sanctioned. My Guru Mahārāja, he also ordered. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also ordered.” as we hear from lecture of HDG A.C> Bhactivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada on the mentioned by Yashodanandan LAw book of ISKCON, i.e. Nectar of Devotion given in Vrndavana, October 24 of 1972, or further explained where a week later in another lecture our acarya said that:” Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. We have to acquire this energy through the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is within as caitya-guru, and when we are serious He comes out as the spiritual master. Śikṣā-guru, dīkṣā-guru. So there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa manifests Himself externally as śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru… ” It is clearly said here that the only thing we need is being serious, and than Sri Guru comes, not that we demand diksa in a unprecedented way from the bodily unmanifested acaryas. From Caitanya Cariatmrita for example we may understand that:”Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vāṇī, his words. There are two ways of association-by vāṇī and by vapu. Vāṇī means words, and vapu means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vāṇī continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the vāṇī, not the physical presence. Bhagavad-gītā, for example, is the vāṇī of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Although Kṛṣṇa was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, Bhagavad-gītā continues.” What is essential it is to follow the instructions-vani, until Sri Krishna sees our seriousness and appears kindly before us as Sri Guru, not that we contrive a method to force them to do so, as is the case with the ritvik diksha on demand or socially reinforced (F)ISKCON guru scam dear prabhus.
Bhakta Jarek is saying we should worship nobody because, he never tells us who the living guru is? That is called mayavada, says Srila Prabhupada. Anyone who does not give the name of the guru is a mayavada, that is what Srila Prabhupada says. Sorry, we are not mayavadas, we worship a person, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. Why does Bhakta Jarek keep telling us to worship — no one, with no name, no books, no photo, no temples, he wants us to worship — nothing? He is a mayavada. Sorry you have to give the name of the guru, and this was always the case, if you wanted to debate with Rupa Goswami, you also had to give the name of your guru, the name of your guru line, the shastra you were going to quote from, which commentary you were using, and so on, no one could come up and say — I have no guru, I have no line, I cannot tell you whose commentary I am citing, and so on, that is not allowed in debates, its not even allowed in karmi debates, you have to name your sources, your evidence and so forth. ys pd
Puranjana is twisting everything as usual. Who you should worship is clear from the verses i have quoted. We do worship always the most recent acarya, we do worship HDG A.C> Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the śaktyavesha avatara and senapati bhakta of Lord Sri Krishna. For example like Srila Prabhupada explains here, in a lecture on Bhagavad-gita 9.26-27 — New York, December 16, 1966:
“So we have to… In the Bhagavad-gītā in the thirteenth Chapter you have read it that ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryopāsanam. You have to approach an ācārya. That is the way of learning transcendental knowledge in all Vedic scriptures. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] “If you want to learn that transcendental science, then you have to approach the bona fide spiritual master.” Tad-vijñānārtham. Tat means transcendental; vijñāna means science. If you want to learn. So the Vedic literature teaches us to accept the authorized bona fide spiritual master ācārya. Kṛṣṇa is the head of all ācāryas. He is the principal ācārya. From Kṛṣṇa, Brahmā learned this Vedic literature. From Brahmā, Nārada learned this Vedic literature. From Nārada, Vyāsadeva; from Vyāsadeva, Madhvācārya. From Madhvācārya, so many. In this way the paramparā system, the ācārya system, is coming down. So we have to believe that. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You have to follow the footprints of ācārya. Not only in the… Everywhere, the footprints of ācāryas are followed. Just like in your country you are following the footprints of Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, that is the way. Or any ācārya. Because the ācārya, they come here to teach us about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. That is their business. They have no other business. That is bona fide ācārya. If somebody claims that “I am God,” then he is fool number one. At once reject him. One who teaches about the message of God, he is ācārya.”
After the Acarya left His divine form in the material world appearance he remains in his sound recorded various forms. Among those forms his vani is essential and pervades all the recorded kirtan of His Divine Grace. So clear and simple, no need to create some rascal so called ISKCON gurus or ritvik experiment of any kind.
Dear Bhakta Jarek,
Since Srila Prabhupada himself wrote his name amongst the greatest Acarayas list of 32 on his Bhagvat Gita as the current Acaraya in the Sampardaya, Parampara list, therefore,, it should behove all of US his followers to accept and obey the Order of Instructions including the Ritvik Order of Initiation of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.in his Institution of Iskcon.
If you deny in any shape or form and refuse to accept this Order of Ritvik Initiation of Srila Prabhupada, then, you are not following the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada, and thus you do not accept the present VAPU in his VANI. It is that simple. In this case, no body can help you and your comments are worthless merely waste of time.
Hope it meets you satisfactory.
Hari BOL.
YS…… Amar Puri..
Funny, from my perspective, as a part and parcel of Lord Sri Krishna I see but your ritvik vada ghost possesed comments as not only useless, but also demoniac and simply crazy Amar Puri das (?):-) They are such, and though you got defeated )Rocana prabhu, Kailas candra Prabhu, bhakta George Smith prabhu, and some more devotees also) you can’t stop your whimsical speculations and ridiculous concoctions instead of constantly chanting Hare Krishna for the benefit of your very self and others especially.
y.s. bj
Puranjana is twisting everything as usual.
[PD: OK, that is not giving the name of the living guru, again.]
Who you should worship is clear from the verses i have quoted.
[PD: OK, is still not giving the name of the living guru here either.]
We do worship always the most recent acarya, we do worship HDG A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the śaktyavesha avatara and senapati bhakta of Lord Sri Krishna.
[PD: OK so now you are a ritvik.]
For example like Srila Prabhupada explains here, in a lecture on Bhagavad-gita 9.26-27 — New York, December 16, 1966: “So we have to… In the Bhagavad-gītā in the thirteenth Chapter you have read it that ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryopāsanam. You have to approach an ācārya. That is the way of learning transcendental knowledge in all Vedic scriptures. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] “If you want to learn that transcendental science, then you have to approach the bona fide spiritual master.” Tad-vijñānārtham. Tat means transcendental; vijñāna means science. If you want to learn. So the Vedic literature teaches us to accept the authorized bona fide spiritual master ācārya. Kṛṣṇa is the head of all ācāryas. He is the principal ācārya. From Kṛṣṇa, Brahmā learned this Vedic literature. From Brahmā, Nārada learned this Vedic literature. From Nārada, Vyāsadeva; from Vyāsadeva, Madhvācārya. From Madhvācārya, so many. In this way the paramparā system, the ācārya system, is coming down. So we have to believe that. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You have to follow the footprints of ācārya. Not only in the… Everywhere, the footprints of ācāryas are followed. Just like in your country you are following the footprints of Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, that is the way. Or any ācārya. Because the ācārya, they come here to teach us about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. That is their business. They have no other business. That is bona fide ācārya. If somebody claims that “I am God,” then he is fool number one. At once reject him. One who teaches about the message of God, he is ācārya.”
After the Acarya left His divine form in the material world appearance he remains in his sound recorded various forms. Among those forms his vani is essential and pervades all the recorded kirtan of His Divine Grace. So clear and simple, no need to create some rascal so called ISKCON gurus or ritvik experiment of any kind.
[PD: OK except, the ritvik idea is to accept the vani, which you just said is the correct path. In any case, you have not named any living guru, that was my question, you have not answered it. All you did was to say that you agree with us, the vani is the living principle. That means you officially joined us. Then you said, our idea to accept the vani is a concoction, after you said its the right idea. Have you been smoking something or what? Just tell us what it is you are trying to say here? ys pd]
Repeating your mantra like phrase “living guru” you show complete yet basic problem you guys have. There is certainly not a problem with living or not living guru (Guru can’t be dead), however He may disappear from our limited material vision, though Sri Guru, a real Guru, never dies, being a direct and eternal manifestation of Krishna’s mercy He may finish His manifested pastimes for our benefit or detriment when Sri Krishna or other authorities call Him back. We can’t however force Them to appear to unlawful rascals by manufacturing crazy interpretations of historical events or facts. Therefore I am not ritvik frankly I am completely against this kind of ostentatious and cheap devotion which smells from fare after another form of churchianity.
Thanks Bhakta Jarek! Hopefully ISKCON Warsaw temple chief reads your heartbreaking confession of full believe and surrender in gurus who are embodied (I got a kleenex to wip away tears).
They soon might send a stretch limo to pick you up and restore you as chief Warsaw temple potwasher.
FYI, ritviks would like nothing more than having living pure, bona fide spiritual masters physically walking around on earth. Why do you doubt this? You shouldnt!
Ritvik means interim government. Because we can’t find a physically alive bona fide acarya we have to go back to this one who is fully authorized and bona fide, current link. In our case, Srila Prabhupada.
To simply run around like mad chicken that there has to be living guru is alright. But where is your living guru? Is it still Harikes? Agreed, Harikes is rich, influental, musical, good looking, experienced, learned, etc. But is this enough to change this planet into Vaikuntha?
You keep repeating, Kailasa, Rocana, Bhakta George, are they bona fide acaryas? In any case, your underlying conclusion is that ritviks are demons because they make things look like – THE CHURCH?
You are having in Poland one of the world’s lowest abortion rate because of – THE CHURCH. Is this what makes you furious – anti-church – there should be no abortion laws to have more termination of pregnancy in Poland?
Rukmini Ramana dd says: You are having in Poland one of the world’s lowest abortion rates…
Upon further research, it turns out that you are right, Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu. Even though Eastern European countries as a whole have a very high abortion rate, Poland is an exception. According to http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp334pd.html , Poland has an incredibly low abortion rate. Very good!
Mataji I don’t care about some fool from FISKCON Warsaw or any other rascal who supports changes of Prabhupada books and denigrates His original mission, or fools like you who are making Srila Prabhupada look like one who changes and breaks the eternal law of disciplic succession. Why would He do this, is Krishna less potent in Kali Yuga, or limited and unable to send real Guru to a real disicple, or what? Citing or study some senior devotees who are searching for the truth instead of joining cults like FISKCON, the multifarious Churches of Ritvik Scam, or GM, or any other unathorised nonsense is one of the methods how to get out of the maya you are part of.
y.s.bj
Dear Jarek, You are saying the GBC’s bogus gurus idea is wrong, and the GBC’s bogus living guru idea is wrong, and our idea of worship of the pure devotee is also wrong, then you have proved my point, you are not promoting anything. You are against all ideas? You have no idea of your own? The worship of the GBC gurus is wrong, the living guru argument is wrong, and our idea to continue the worship of the pure devotee is also wrong, so you are promoting the worship of — no one and nothing. That is what we said you were doing more than a year ago and you are still doing that? Worse, you are saying the Church is a bad idea, so you want people to live like barbarians and have no civilized culture at all? You want lawless anarchy, no structure to the culture whatsoever, tear it all down, no more church, no more religion, and since the police and courts are based on the Church’s teachings, we should remove all that — and we will be living like barbaric cave men? Why is that the better idea? You are an anarchist. Anarchists want to tear it all down, but they have nothing to replace it with. That is what we thought you were saying. ys pd
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
26. May 2013 at 12:15 pm
PD — “Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu”
SG — What, after 40 years over years of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada
you still do not know how to address a woman ?
HARE KRSNA
Puranjana I just want to chant Hare Krishna in constant ecstatic sankirtan with sadhus, like Aindra. Perhaps thislecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5jIf9jOd-o help some of You, or was Aindraji babu also wrong? Listen to what the selfless Babaji said on guru tattva, wonderful thing to hear. Wish you open minds and hearts dear prabhus.
y.s. bj
Bhakta Jarek, you are a LIAR when you say ; ” from my perspective, as a part and parcel of Lord Sri Krishna I see ………………..”. like the people conditioned souls you mentioned in your offensive and defensive comments which are totally useless because all of you oppose the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada and yet some how or others you and others you mentioned are seemingly following the Krishna Consciousness Instructions with your own respective agenda. That is exactly the problem which is seen when you and your associates mentioned in your comments are offending and defending the Instructions of the Pure Devotee to best suit your respective personal agenda. This has been proven and shown time and time again. It is never ending because people like you refuses to accept and OBEY the Instructions of the current Mahabhagvata HDG. Srila Prabhupada as it is without any interpretation.
When some one like yourself or your named associates in your comments interpret with their respective conditioned mind the Spiritual Instructions of the Mahabhagavat the result remains UNSATISFACTORY and disagreement prevails between those of us who chose to OBEY and those of you and your associates chose NOT TO OBEY the Instructions as it is of the Mahabhagvat Srila Prabhupada. That is the problem.
Should you have any sensible reason of your not obeying the Instructions without any Interpretation, please do write or else go and fly your kite some where else where it suits your agenda.
Hope it meets you satisfactory.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri..
SG says: …after over 40 years of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada you still do not know how to address a woman?
During the spring and summer of 1996, when I was living with the ISKCON devotees in Denmark, I thought that it was hilarious that there were “the Matajis and the Prabhus.” It simply meant that they were a bunch of neophytes with no bona fide guru to instruct them. Even Srila Prabhupada would sometimes address his female disciples as “Prabhu.” But since the ISKCON GBC “gurus” are so busy trying to manage their zones like dictatorial ksatriyas, they don’t have time to read Prabhupada’s books/letters/tape transcriptions or listen to his tapes.
I have yet to hear a female devotee object to being addressed in this way, and you are the first male devotee to object. Go figure.
Bhakta Jarek: Puranjana I just want to chant Hare Krishna in constant ecstatic sankirtan with sadhus, like Aindra. Perhaps thislecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5jIf9jOd-o help some of You, or was Aindraji babu also wrong? Listen to what the selfless Babaji said on guru tattva, wonderful thing to hear. Wish you open minds and hearts dear prabhus. y.s. bj
PD: I do have an open mind. I told you and Rocana and others repeatedly, if you or anyone else has the name of a living guru, lets hear his name, and simply give us the contact details for the guru you have found. Then, we can we can study and test to see if the guru you recommend is bona fide. Or even, if there is any actual person you are speaking about? Or, if you are imagining friends and gurus that don’t exist because you are smoking something?
How do we know whether you have simply imagined that a real living guru exists, or whether you are bluffing and none really exists, unless you tell us where this person is? Otherwise you are talking about zero, nobody, nothing-ness, which is mayavada. We have to worship an actual real person, not a non-existing nothing-ness that you keep telling us about?
And since you have no name, no books, no temples, no devotees, no nothing to show us, then you are talking about nothing. As soon as you want to start to talk about someone that actually exists, lets us know. Talking about your imaginary friends is what people are doing in the Bellvue mental home. Sorry, we cannot see your imagined guru, or anything he has produced. We have tried for the past 35 years, but we cannot see your imaginary friends. You’ll actually have to produce someone concrete, i.e. a real person, or else, we will wonder — why you are NOT taking your medications?
We have a guru who has books, temples, devotees etc. and we just had four initiation ceremonies in four different countries. In other words, we are not talking about imaginary people, we are doing real things with real people. Aindra said Srila Prabhupada is the shiksha and diksha guru of ISKCON, thats good enough for me. Anyway, you keep avoiding the question, and you folks have done that for 35 years, that means you will be doing that maybe for the next 35 million years for all we know, you have no living guru now, and you may never have one ever for the next 35 million years for all we know, and at the rate you are going now, we will all be dead before you find anyone, so its not even relevant to anyone. At all. ys pd
It is very clear what Srila Prabhupada’s intent was in the lead up conversations and in his official letters to the Society leaders, most notably the July 9th ’77 directive, not only a letter, but also a signed order from His Divine Grace prior to his departure.
Even though in the past Srila Prabhupada had spoken of his desire for his disciples to attain the platform of pure devotional service, it was still painfully clear that no one was qualified and so out of his causeless mercy he decided to continue to accept disciples as the eternal Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krsna Consciousness.
As the pure self-realized maha bhagavata acharya, he ordained his chosen senior disciples to continue to carry on the process of accepting disciples on his behalf, as stated in his 9th July 77 signed directive. Unfortunately still to this day there are those devotees amongst all ranks who consider that this ‘Ritvik’ order was only for the short duration (several months) that Srila Prabhupada would be with us at the end of his manifest lila. Why the need for a new system that would only be in place for a short time, then scrubbed after his departure without any further instructions.
That basic ritvik process had been going on for many years, by way of GBC, sannyasis and temple presidents assisting Srila Prabhupada in the ceremonial formalities of initiations. Now Srila Prabhupada decided in his wisdom to confirm it in writing and also added the greater responsibility entrusted to those first 11 men of doing the final acceptance of new initiates, but still on his behalf as the eternal Acharya of his Society. At this stage he was also very selective when he decided that Brahmananda prabhu would not be on his list of zonal (whoever is closest) ritvik representatives, so we can see this list was considered to be of the utmost importance for the initiation of future disciples.
Perhaps even more alarming is that even today there are still those in both high and lower places, who for whatever reason have misconceived that 9th July directive to be an authority to appoint those 11 as “Gurus in Waiting”…….waiting within 6 months to morph into pure maha-bhagavatas with all the associated trappings.
It has been clearly revealed to any doubters that Srila Prabhupada only ever appointed ritviks and not gurus in the ITV interview with his close godbrother, BV Puri Maharaja.
HH Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja: “You have selected 11 gurus” ….
Srila Prabhupada: “I have not selected. I have appointed 11 ritviks”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cKP1gU46A
Of course HH BV Puri Maharaja didn’t agree with Srila Prabhupada that after his departure these ritviks could continue to accept disciples on his behalf, however this is why Srila Prabhupada also told us not to associate with any of his godbrothers as their understanding of his universal preaching to us “less than sudras” was limited.
“…We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.” letter April 28th 1974.
One might erroneously question the right of Srila Prabhupada to make such adjustments, but we can see over the short 12 years of his manifest lila with us he made so many adjustments, even as a sannyasa performing the marriage ceremony for his initiated fallen sannyasa…unheard of in Vedic terms.
In his Bhaktivedanta Purport, SB 4.8.54…Srila Prabhupada states
Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
So this is exactly what Srila Prabhupada has done. He set up a plan by his special mercy for his Society as the Founder-Acharya, for initiations to continue on his behalf henceforward.
Further evidence from His Divine Grace re qualifications (or lack of) for diksa-gurus..
“On the whole you may know that he (Bon Maharaja) is not a liberated person, and therefore he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special benediction from higher authorities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)
“If everyone just initiates there will be contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure.”
(Srila Prabhupada Phalgun Krishnan Pancami, verse 23, 1961)
“Amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga, 28/4/74).
Srila Prabhupada’s words “As they are”.
Your humble and fallen servant,
Balaram das.
Here are the figures for Poland:
Abortion in Poland has declined from a peak of about 260,000 under communist rule in 1963 to only 328 in 2007, a decline of nearly 99.9%.[1]
From 1987 to 1993 the number of abortions in Poland decreased by 99% as the communist rule was overthrown.
The result has been a dramatic improvement in women’s health and a spectacular decrease in harmful premature births. Here are the data for deaths of Polish children under age 5 with Cerebral Palsy (CP):[2]
http://www.conservapedia.com/Abortion_in_Poland
Rukmini Ramana dd says: You are having in Poland one of the world’s lowest abortion rates because of: THE CHURCH.
From http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/95ed060f6009e52a :
Polish women don’t have access to abortion rights. The existing law allows for termination of pregnancy only in cases of a serious threat to woman’s health, severe damage of the fetus or rape. Its implementation proved to be complete fiction. Officially there are about 500 abortions a year in Poland while for example in Spain, a country with a similar population, the number exceeds 110 000. Non-governmental organizations estimate the number of abortions in the underground at 150 000 a year.
taken from;
http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Safe_Legal_Abortion_in_Poland_Now_Prawo_do_bezpiecznej_i_legalnej_aborcji_dla_Polek/
When visiting ex-Harikes disciples I found they still have Harikes’s pic on their home altar. I figured this might be an exceptional case, someone out of sentiment still keeping Harikes as current link on the altar. Wrong! Everywhere I found they all still have Harikes on their altar.
So I tried to investigate, exploratory research, whats the root cause of this behavior pattern? Step by step it became clear, first of all they don’t want to admit having made any mistake of choosing a false guru.
Although being aware of having chosen a false guru, they conclude it is Prabhupada who installed those “gurus”. Therefore we are without fault. Even when it is like that that Prabhupada did not appoint them as gurus, still, things were so confused and clouded that even Prabhupada disciples believed and still believe to this day that those 11 were appointed by Prabhupada.
In sum, they won’t admit having made any mistake and thats the actual reason why folks like Jarek never agree to anything ritvik. It would push them into the position of having committed a most foolish mistake. Of course by keeping this understanding they meanwhile reject Prabhupada, because if he selected false gurus that means he is also not perfect. Thats why people are not changing from their position, they insist to shift the blame on Prabhupada for all what happened.
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
26. May 2013 at 9:29 pm
PD — I have yet to hear a female devotee object to being addressed in this way,
and you are the first male devotee to object. Go figure.
SG — Good. So, go figure it out. And while you are at it, try to also figure out why women wear blouse and saris and men wear dhotis and kurta in our society. Why women and men don’t sleep in the same room or on the same bed. Why women and men don’t bath together. Why women give birth and breast feed and men don’t. Why we address a woman as mataji or mother with reverence and man as prabhu or master. These are simple things, Pratyatosa dasa, should not be that difficult to figure out.
HARE KRSNA
26. May 2013 at 8:01 pm
“That is exactly the problem which is seen when you and your associates
mentioned in your comments are offending and defending the Instructions
of the Pure Devotee to best suit your respective personal agenda. This
has been proven and shown time and time again. It is never ending because
people like you refuses to accept and OBEY the Instructions of the current
Mahabhagvata HDG. Srila Prabhupada as it is without any interpretation.
When some one like yourself or your named associates in your comments interpret a
with their respective conditioned mind the Spiritual Instructions of the Mahabhagavat
the result remains UNSATISFACTORY and disagreement prevails between those of us who
chose to OBEY and those of you and your associates chose NOT TO OBEY the Instructions
as it is of the Mahabhagvat Srila Prabhupada. That is the problem.”
SG — What a HYPOCRITE! First you go and follow the instruction of the July 9th letter
without interpreting it and then come and tell how you did it especially that final line
of instruction where Srila Prabhupada instructed that the initiated names are to send to
him to record in his initiated disciples book.
HARE KRSNA
bhakta jarek says: Non-governmental organizations estimate the number of abortions in the underground [in Poland] at 150,000 a year.
So much for Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu’s “due to the positive influence of ‘THE CHURCH'” (paraphrased) claim.
Durgama das, bhakta Jarek was so called initiated asshole, so called disciple of HKS, and as soon he read HKS’s blasphemies against Srila Prabhupada he first gave up his so called devotional name, so what to hell you don’t talk your empty lies about someone else than the poor boy jarek, he?
I do not accept this ritvik scam since it is pure Kali nonsense and it turns to be a great obstacle to the future of the real and eternal ISKCON with the real mahabhagavata devotees who come here to preach the sanatana dharma. You then guys become their greatest enemies, isn’t it going to be so? O yes, you will chase them away with yor neo karthabaja sahajiya church of ritvik bogus suicide scheme.
Jarek: “Non-governmental organizations estimate the number of abortions in the underground at 150 000 a year”
This is typical, as soon the rascal is exposed he switches to conspiracy theory. Unfortunately nobody falls for this crap which might originate from abortion industry.
There is no need to indulge in vage estimation. Prabhupada rejected it – conspiracy doesn’t help the cause of Vaishnavism.
Amar Puri says:
26. May 2013 at 8:01 pm
AP — “That is exactly the problem which is seen when you and your associates
mentioned in your comments are offending and defending the Instructions
of the Pure Devotee to best suit your respective personal agenda. This
has been proven and shown time and time again. It is never ending because
people like you refuses to accept and OBEY the Instructions of the current
Mahabhagvata HDG. Srila Prabhupada as it is without any interpretation.
When some one like yourself or your named associates in your comments interpret a
with their respective conditioned mind the Spiritual Instructions of the Mahabhagavat
the result remains UNSATISFACTORY and disagreement prevails between those of us who
chose to OBEY and those of you and your associates chose NOT TO OBEY the Instructions
as it is of the Mahabhagvat Srila Prabhupada. That is the problem.”
SG — What a HYPOCRITE! First you go and follow the instruction of the July 9th letter
without interpreting it and then come and tell how you did it especially that final line
of instruction where Srila Prabhupada instructed that the initiated names are to send to
him to record in his initiated disciples book.
HARE KRSNA
SG says: …we address a woman as mataji or mother with reverence and man as prabhu or master.
So what you are saying is that women should not be addressed as “Prabhu” because women are never “masters,” only men! This is called “bodily consciousness.”
How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his female disciples as “Prabhu?”
Mataji I am living here and there is no conspiracy influence in my respond, I am much simpler than you “think” but simple truth that polish women are also victimised by Kali’s conspiracy, the same case with you ritviks. On the other hand conspiracy is but a common thing in Kali yuga and Srila Prabhupada refers to it several times(about 70) in His divine comments for example.(sorry for the capital H, but i am a rascal and a mayavada, as you detected by your nice and simple method Prathyatosha prabhu, by the way it is a wonderful thing, since you don’t to have to study Prabhupada books in the subject “mayavada”, you simply check how a non ritvik writes personal pronouns and you got a next rascal cought, bravo!!!) .
Rukmini Ramana dd says: This is typical, as soon the rascal is exposed he switches to conspiracy theory.
To say that the abortions in Poland have been driven underground because they have been made illegal is not “conspiracy theory.” It is an obvious fact.
On the other hand, to quote official government statistics that abortions have dramatically decreased without mentioning the fact that they have been made illegal is very misleading, if not out-and-out dishonest.
Bhakta Jarek: “…the real mahabhagavata devotees who come here to preach the sanatana dharma….You then guys become their greatest enemies, isn’t it going to be so?”
To grumble, rant and rave is not what Prabhupada taught in order to convince people. Your future mahabhagavatas are not out of cotton candy, rather they are self-effulgent and become accepted naturally.
Of course this “in future” reminds of Prabhupada stating: “They say that they are expecting to arrive at the truth in the future, but that is simply proof that their knowledge is imperfect. This is something like a bankrupt man giving a postdated check. What is the value of the man’s check if he has no money? Who will accept such a check?” (Los Angeles, April 16, 1973)
“Yes, I’ll pay you one hundred rupees in future. I am trying to get the money” — shall you wait for that? Rather I’ll go to a man who has got already. Why shall I wait for you? When it is cold you put on a pullover now. Not in future. It’s a nice sentiment to believe that in future there will be great pure devotees appearing on this planet but people in general require solution right now.
So what the heck, Prabhupada is available right now! We have to pick up the prominent acarya, and follow from him.
SG writes ; ” SG — What a HYPOCRITE! First you go and follow the instruction of the July 9th letter
without interpreting it and then come and tell how you did it especially that final line
of instruction where Srila Prabhupada instructed that the initiated names are to send to
him to record in his initiated disciples book.”
It looks like you are playing innocent time and time again either to deceit yourself or the people in general who reads your insane comments for further endless confusion.
I have given this answer enumerable times else where on this site. I wonder why an intelligent person like yourself does not get the heed in order to understand the Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada as it is.
My humble request to you is that please read and re-read the July 9th Letter repeatedly. If you are unable to get the answer, then, please read and find the answer in the Instructions where Srila Prabhupada answers all the questions because Srila Prabhupada says that all the answers are in his Instructions, VANI.
Now it is up to you to come up with the answer IF you are really an honest and sincere SEEKER to any question that you may have, SG.
Hope it meets you well.
OM TAT SAT.
Durgama das said:
“So what the heck, Prabhupada is available right now! We have to pick up the prominent acarya, and follow from him”.
This is what I do talk to you ever since I remember, but it is not that you have to manufacture some new methods of worship, this is forbidden, simply follow, everything is in Srila Prabhupada’s books, and of course there is no slightest sign of the bogus ritvik diksha on demand hustle stuff, so simple, where is the problem? Guru śastra and sadhu. Perhaps we are not hearing properly, not chanting and hearing carefully? Everyone has to find out for himself of course. By the way I gave you guys link to particular lecture of Aindra das Prabhu, why nobody went through it, nobody gave a damm word about it, it is onviously sadhu apparadha made by you guys. You have used Him only when it was for to win your case, otherwise you don’t damm care about sadhus, so don’t telll me I am a mayavadi, since it is you who are so shameless exploiters of others.
It is obvious who B.Jarek thinks is qualified to be considered an uttama Mahabhagavat worthy of the special worship that Srila Prabhupada reserved to himself in Iskcon. Such as Daily Guru Puja, recitation of pranama mantra before so many ritual activities, picture on every publication, Vyasa Puja, etc, etc.
He names them often. Kailash Candra. Rocana. Bhakta George.
He is unable to understand that for all intents and purposes, every TP was basically in charge of new disciples. That TP and any senior devotees were fully in supervision of new disciples. New people were practically their disciples, and often would never meet Srila Prabhupada. These senior men were Siksa Gurus and as good as Srila Prabhupada as long as they instructed according to Srila Prabhupada’s guidance, and did not usurp any of the worship reserved for Srila Prabhupada. They were to receive the obeisances and respect of any male brahminical teacher according to Vaisnava custom. There was simply no place for them to be treated as the initiating spiritual master of the Asrama, even though they basically did all the work, including the initiation ceremonies!
There is no prohibition for Jarek or any of his heroes to go off on their own and create their own asrama and demand whatever type of worship they choose.
There is a prohibition from them using Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon properties (intellectual and physical) in order to establish themselves as worshipable Initiating Acaryas.
It is SOOOOOO simple.
Which is why it is soooooo simple to distinguish who has a big fat false ego and will NEVER agree to a situation where the door is closed to the possibility of them being regarded and worshipped like Srila Prabhupada was.
They hide behind the anti-ritvik smokescreen by creating a fictitious concept of what ritvik is according to their own agenda. The ritvik would largely not have any disciples in reality. It was the Temple president and senior local brahmanas who over time would do the most “discipling” of all new disciples of Srila Prabhupada. The ritviks were meant to be senior TP’s who were mostly renunciates and who knew enough TP’s in their region in order to be respected. They were official functionaries only in regards to new initiates and would probably meet or get to know very few unless they were local to their home base temple, or would perhaps meet them in their travels from temple to temple as they made the rounds to inspire devotees the way senior renunciates/GBC types were meant to.
Bhakta Jarek is like the mad Christian preachers who say we all have to sit on a cliff and wait for the second coming of Jesus. He is preaching exactly like these mad preachers, “Jesus is coming soon.” Well, maybe, but many of the people who sold their houses, to sit on a cliff and wait, then, they had no house to move back to when Jesus did not appear, they already gave all their house sale money to the mad preacher. Sorry, Jarek, you are preaching a version of Christianity, and unfortunately, you selected the nutty version. ys pd
mark says: He is unable to understand that for all intents and purposes, every TP was basically in charge of new disciples. That TP and any senior devotees were fully in supervision of new disciples. New people were practically their disciples, and often would never meet Srila Prabhupada.
This is correct. When I joined ISKCON Detroit in May of 1970, the system was, “If the temple president said you got initiated then you got initiated, otherwise not. It was as simple as that. Why should it be any different today?
When I joined, there were already several initiated devotees living in the temple, but none of them, except for the TP had ever even met Srila Prabhupada!
When my wife got initiated in 1973, she got her spiritual name by mail also, and her beads were chanted on by Kirtanananda Swami, who was deputed by the ISKCON Chicago TP to perform that function. After that, she had nothing whatsoever to do with Kirtanananda until 1980 when we spent a few months living in New Vrindaban.
This is Srila Prabhupada’s system, and it worked very, very well. There is absolutely no reason why this system could not be re-implemented within all of ISKCON instead of just ISKCON Long Island, ISKCON Bangalore, and several temples associated with ISKCON Bangalore, as is the case today.
Pratyatosa das: “To say that the abortions in Poland have been driven underground because they have been made illegal is not “conspiracy theory.” It is an obvious fact.”
Whatever, who can know? Point is that many ritvik antagonists like Bh. Jarek argue that “ritvik is demoniac because it looks like the church”.
In other words, they figure Christianity is demonic. Prabhupada never spoke like that. Prabhupada always said we teach Christians how to be better Christians, not that they have to give up their believe in Lord Jesus. Prabhupada: “So I think you may explain to them how this Krishna Consciousness movement will help them advance to be better Christians.” (Letter to: Upendra)
On the other hand without the groundwork of the Christian virtues there would be no chance of having a global sankirtan movement right now. People were all barbarians, violent nomadic people and illiterate rogues. How anybody would be able to read Prabhupada’s books? So there has to be a sense of deeper understanding. Agreed, Christians eat meat, this is sinful.
However, they won’t accept cheaters who falsely usurp the post of Lord Jesus. In that sense present Vaishnava institutions have degraded below meat-eating Christians.
Another “churchianity” this is what Srila Prabhupada warns us about, by the way with kind of different philosophical context however. That context is not necessarily applicable while talking about the ritvik scam or deviation. We have to see that that ritvik issue was newborn first 10 years after the departure of H.D.G. A.C. BHaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, so naturally His commentaries were not involved with it for obvious reasons. The ritviks are but more into common religiosity and spectacular humanitarian works, they show strong similiarities with karthabaja sahajiyas however through the medium of different religious experiences accordingly to their pre devotional life and practices, it may be one of the reason why they can’t unite, holding sectarian views and differences. If you doubt read about how Dhamagosha das is strongly attached to the cult of Jesus, christian holidays and rites, he does openly talks about and this is how i have learned about this somehow nice sahajiyas from HKS. They may or may not be nice, but such practices mixed into devotional service constitute an aparadha to devotional service, to Sri Guru, sadhus and śastra.
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
28. May 2013 at 3:32 pm
PD — So what you are saying is that women should not be addressed as “Prabhu”
because women are never “masters,” only men! This is called “bodily consciousness.”
SG — Is not the designated term to address women in our society as mataji
and the designated term to address men as prabhu. If it is, then how is this
called bodily consciousness? Are you saying that in our society we don’t
discriminate between the body of a woman and the body of a man. Are you saying
that in our society both men and women live together, sleep together, bath together
dress alike etc. etc. etc. Brahmacaris and sannyasis are not prohibited from the
company of women.
Remember that Lokanath Swami who some years ago molested a young 11 year old
bhaktin by fondling her in certain part of her body. You think it was wrong for us
to condemn him for doing it since it was only her body that he touched and since she
is actually a spirit soul and we are all on the spiritual platform so no harm was done.
To condemn means to be in bodily consciousness.
Or how about that Ravindra Svarupa Dasa (William H. Deadwyler, III) ISKCON guru
and leader, president of Philadelphia temple. He kicked the behind of a woman devotee
and called it symbolic gesture ( Intelligence of a donkey). Do you think it was alright
for him to do that. Do you think he should not be condemned. After all it was the body
of hers that he kicked and she is suppose to be a spirit soul. He is suppose to be a
spirit soul so no harm done. We should not be in bodily consciousness.
Or well, etc. etc. etc.
So, Pratyatosa dasa, do you still think all this is bodily consciousness and not the
use one’s discriminating faculty to understand between right and wrong, good and bad
what is proper and not proper, the use of the correct term and incorrect term to
address a person. What do you think ?
PD — How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his
female disciples as “Prabhu?”
SG — Thats the point, isn’t it. ‘SOMETIMES’ he refers to his female disciples as prabhu –
depending on his mood at that time but that’s Srila Prabhupada. He didn’t say
its the norm in our society to address a woman as prabhu, did he ?
A proper and chaste woman will not want be addressed as anyone else other than as
mother or mataji who she rightfully is.
Meantime here is something to catch up with your guru maharaj, Srila Prabhupada advise
on how to address a woman.
” Mother/Mataji (Not Prabhu)
****************************
The First Training –
A brahmacari is advised to go begging alms door to door, addressing all women as mother,
and whatever he collects goes to the benefit of the guru. (SB 7.6.9)
They call all woman, “Mother.” “Mother, give me some alms.” (Bg 4.21/ Bombay/ April 10, 1974)
Formerly, brahmacaris would have to go from door to door to beg alms for the ashram, and
they were trained from the very beginning to address every woman as mother. (TLK, V 20)
So therefore the first training is given, to become austere, tolerate, how to tolerate,
how to call other women as “Mother.” He is learning from the beginning, a small child.
He is trained up to call any woman, even of his own age, not “sister,”–“Mother.” This
is the training. Matrvat para-daresu. This is education. Matrvat para-daresu. Canakya
Pandita, the great politician, has given the definition of a learned scholar. Who is
learned scholar? He has given the definition. What is this? Matrvat para-daresu. To see
every woman except his wife as mother. This is education. This is education, perfection
of education, when you can see all women except your wife as mother. (Bg 1.26-27/ London/
July 21, 1973)
The address should be “Mother.” Practice. This is practice, the brahmacari’s practice.
He goes to every householder’s wife: “Mother, give me some…” Just like this child. If he
is taught from the very beginning of his life that “Address all women as mother…”
(SB 6.1.23/ Honolulu/ May 23, 1976)
And they used to call every woman from the beginning of life, “Mother.” This is training.
Matrvat para-daresu. From the very beginning of life, all women they are treated as mother.
That is the system, Vedic system. Everyone will call a woman as “Mother.” Never mind whether
she is younger or older. It doesn’t matter. Woman has to be addressed as “Mother.” That is
Canakya Pandita’s instruction. Who is learned scholar? Who has got three qualification, he is
learned scholar. What is that? Matrvat para-daresu: “To treat all woman as mother”…The
etiquette is to address every woman, never mind whether she is young or old, as “Mother.”
(Bg 4.16/ Bombay/ April 5, 1974)
This brahmacari, he is taught. He is taught to address all women as “Mother.” The brahmacari
goes to collect alms from door to door. Small boys. So how do they address? “Mother, kindly
give us some alms.” (SB 1.3.13/ Los Angeles/ September 18, 1972)
Similarly, if a brahmacari is taught from childhood, from boyhood address all woman as
“Mother,” he cannot see otherwise. “[S]he is my mother.” (SB 1.3.13/ Los Angeles/
September 18, 1972)
That brahmacari rules and regulation are there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that he would
go door to door for collecting alms for his spiritual master, and address every woman as
mother, from the very beginning. From five years old, if a child is trained to call all
woman as “Mother,” naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned to call all
woman as “Mother.” He has no other idea. A small child, any woman comes before him, he knows
“[S]He is my mother.” So this was the practice. That is not only religiously, but morally,
it is so good, to look upon all woman as mother. That is the system still in India, any
unknown woman who has no introduction with you, [s]he is addressed Mataji. Address her.
She may be just like daughter or granddaughter, but one would address, as a respect to
the woman, as “Mother,” Mataji. This is Indian system….In the sastra, all the woman,
except one’s wife, should be addressed as “Mother.” (SB 1.16.10/ Los Angeles/ January 7, 1974)
Brahmacari will go door to door, “Mother, give me alms,” and they’ll give. (SB 3.25.8/
Bombay/ November 8, 1974)
They would have to go beg door to door, brahmacari: “Mother, give us some alms for our
asrama.” So they were trained from the very beginning to address any woman as “Mother.”
(SB 3.25.20/ Bombay/ November 20, 1974)
Gurukula means every student should go to gurukula and learn to become very simple and
obedient and self-controlled and learn how to address every woman as mother. This is guru…
from the very beginning. They would go every home. Small children or big children, they
will address, “Mother, give us some alms.” (SB 6.1.21/ Honolulu/ May 21, 1976)
A brahmacari is practiced. He goes to every householder’s wife, “Mother, give me some…”
Just like this child, if he is taught from the very beginning of his life that “Address
all woman as mother,” that training and intermingling with anyone, that is a different way.
(SB 6.1.22/ Honolulu/ May 22, 1976)
The first educational symptom is that except one’s own wife, any woman is mother. (SB 6.1.22/
Chicago/ July 6, 1975)
So the system is any brahmacari or any sannyasi goes to a householder, “Mother, give me some
alms. I am brahmacari,” [s]he will at once give. (SB 7.7.29-31/ San Francisco/ March 15, 1967)
No. That is also imperfect. Anyway, it is something. Amanitvam adambhitvam: they from the very
beginning of their life, they address other’s wife as “Mother,” you see? Matrvat paridaresu.
This is culture, to see every woman except his own wife as mother. (Morning walk/ Bombay/
December 17, 1975)
And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. (Room conversation/
New Mayapur/ July 31, 1976)
Address as “Mother/Mataji”
————————-
Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu,
all women, “my mother.” Then it will be possible to live… Therefore the etiquette is to
address every woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.
Brahmananda: You say like “Mother Rukmini”? There’s a devotee named Rukmini. You say,
“Mother Rukmini”? How do you address a woman? Do you say, “Mother,” and then the name
of the devotee?
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply.
Brahmananda: Just “Mother.”
Prabhupada: Yes. They should be addressed, “Mother.” That will train.
Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don’t call the name of the mother never,
children don’t.
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply “Mother,” that’s all. And if the woman treats man as son,
then it is all right. It is safe. (Morning Walk/ Nairobi/ November 2, 1975)
Devotee: When you address a woman, do you…
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word Mataji? Is that the right, proper
word for her?
Prabhupada: Mataji. Yes, very good. “Mother.” All right. Chant. (end) (Bg 4.14/ Vrndavana
/ August 6, 1974)
Must address all woman as “Mother.” (SB 1.3.13/ Los Angeles/ September 18, 1972)
Any woman except his own wife is mother. Any woman. It doesn’t matter whether she is elderly
or young. No. That is the way. Still in India, any woman by unknown person, he can address
any woman “Mother.” The first relationship is mother….Mother. Everyone should be addressed.
We should learn this. Except one’s one wife, all women should be addressed as “Mother.”
(SB 1.16.23/ Los Angeles/ July 13, 1974)
In India still, women, especially in ashrams, any woman, visitor, she is addressed as “Mother”
by all the… She may be young girl, but she is addressed as “Mother.” This is the etiquette.
“Mother, what can I help you?” (SB 3.1.10/ Dallas/ May 21, 1973)
As soon as you see one woman except your married wife, you immediately address her “Mother.”
(SB 5.5.3/ Vrndavana/ October 25, 1976)
Everyone’s wife should be considered, para-dara, para means other’s wife, matrvat, mother.
Therefore the Vedic system is when we address another woman, “Mother.” No other address.
“Mother, can I do this? Would you like this?” The address should be “Mother.” Practice,
this is practice. (SB 6.1.22/ Honolulu/ May 22, 1976)
What is that? Matrvat para-daresu: “Everyone’s wife should be considered…” Para-dara.
Para means others’ wife. Matrvat, mother. Therefore the Vedic system is, when we address
another woman, “Mother,” no other address. “Mother, can I do this? Would you like this?”
The address should be “Mother.” (SB 6.1.23/ Honolulu/ May 23, 1976)
Pandita means matrvat para-daresu: “to accept all women as mother,” para-daresu. Dara
means wife, and para means others’. Except his own wife, he should treat all women outside,
taking them as mother. Therefore, still in Hindu society, every woman is addressed by an
unknown man, “Mother.” It doesn’t matter if a person is unknown. He can speak with another
woman, addressing him first…addressing her first, “Mother,” Mataji. Then nobody will be
offended. This is the etiquette. That is taught by Canakya Pandita. Matrvat para-daresu.
Woman should be addressed as “Mother.” (SB 6.1.56-57/ Bombay/ August 14, 1975)
A brahmacari should always address every woman as mother. (Letter to: Sankarasana/
Los Angeles/September 30, 1972)
She is woman, so you call her “Mother.” As soon as you call her “Mother,” that I am so
fallen “please save, you are so great,” then she will be very pleased. (Letter to:
Cyavana/ Vrindaban/ September 4, 1975)
Treat as Mother
—————
Therefore, the common moral teachings and the Vedic civilization is to accept any woman
except his own wife as mother. Matrvat para-daresu. Para-daresu. Everyone is supposed to
be married. Dara means wife. Para-daresu, other’s wife. It doesn’t matter if she is younger
or older, but she should be treated as mother. Therefore it is the system in Vedic culture,
as soon as one sees another woman, she[sic] addresses her, “Mother,” Mataji. Immediately,
“Mother.” That makes the relationship. The woman treats the unknown man as son, and the
unknown man treats the unknown woman as mother. This is Vedic civilization. (SB 1.3.13/
Los Angeles/ September 18, 1972)
Every woman–mother. Except his married wife, every woman is mother. (Morning walk/ Mayapura
/ March 4, 1974)
In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the
instruction of Canakya Pandita. Matrvat para-daresu: “All women should be treated as mother.”
(Room conversation with Scientists/ Melbourne/ July 2, 1974)
Brahmananda: Actually you’re supposed to see other women as mother.
Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning walk/ Vrndavana/ September 6, 1975)
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, should we call all the women “Mother”?
Prabhupada: Yes. And treat it like mother. Not only call, but treat it like mother.
(Morning walk/ Mauritius/ October 25, 1975)
HARE KRSNA
SG says: [Srila Prabhupada] didn’t say its the norm in our society to address a woman as prabhu, did he?
According to Mother Malati Prabhu, GBC representative, one of Srila Prabhupada’s first disciples, and one of the most respected devotees in the movement, he most certainly did:
(<http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/3c280805a20a80eb>)
I agree with SG 100%
Mother Malati’s remembrance is just that. It is not written in stone as all that SG produced is.
Mother Malati’s remembrance is from the very early days when Srila Prabhupada was introducing and emphasizing pure devotional service only. He had yet to begin introducing the very necessary social distinctions according to vedic culture, which he KNEW and CLAIMED were necessary because his disciples were not proving capable of acting on the plain of suddha Bhakti.
Future orders supercede past orders, is that not one of Pratyatosa das’ favorite arguments? It is proper in most all circumstances that he uses it. It is proper now.
The NORM is mataji. It is not wrong to educate others that Prabhupada used to call women Prabhu, and that “it is said” that early in the movement he said to address women like that. But that education should also be accompanied with the ‘REST OF THE STORY”, including the updated directive to use “mother”, what the difference is, and why.
Otherwise, to just state “it is meant to be the norm that we address women as Prabhu” is truly misleading. And especially as there is NO vedabase reference to back it up.
mark says: …to just state “it is meant to be the norm that we address women as Prabhu” is truly misleading. And especially as there is NO vedabase reference to back it up.
Maybe it shouldn’t be the norm after taking into account later statements by Srila Prabhupada. I’m not sure. But even so, for SG to condemn me for writing, “Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu,” is not right for the following three reasons:
1. Srila Prabhupada himself would sometime address or refer to his female disciples as “Prabhu.”
2. Nowhere in the VedaBase is there a quote by Prabhupapa ordering that the practice of addressing female devotees as “Prabhu” be stopped.
3. Including “Mother” in the address satisfies Prabhupada’s requirement that I think of women, other than my wife, as mother or mataji, and that they be addressed as such.
Bhakta Jarek is a follower of the Christian idea that the messiah is coming soon. He is waiting for the next messiah to appear before he can preach. We are in the meantime, not waiting but preaching. That is why he never mentions any temple, guru, program, books, nothing, because he has nothing at all, a big fat zero. He is sitting around and doing nothing, while we have our guru, temples, books, programs, samkirtana and so forth. Waiting on a cliff for the next messiah is a waste of time, sorry to have to tell you that Jarek prabhu. Anyway thats good, sit and do nothing and we will preach in the meantime. ys pd
I agree 100% with you Pratyatosa das.
I just went back and looked at SG’s original criticism of you that you just alluded to.
Your address was completely proper. Even if you didn’t call her mother and only called her Prabhu, there is NOTHING WRONG with that.
It is so sad that someone like SG, who obviously has the intellect to make a decent analysis on the point, twists the truth in order to demonstrate such un-Vaisnava behavior towards you.
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
29. May 2013 at 4:52 pm
PD — According to Mother Malati Prabhu, GBC representative, one of
Srila Prabhupada’s first disciples, and one of the most respected
devotees in the movement, he most certainly did:
( From: Mellanie L Nagel — Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily
identifications in favor of principal. He taught us to address one
another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as
“Prabhu” in order to teach the correct mood, “not that we become ‘master,’
but that we see all others as ‘master.’
SG — In our spiritual society we address women as mataji and men as prabhu
while in the material society they address women as Miss, Mrs or Ms and men
as Mister (Mr) or sometimes as master or Sir. It is as simple as that.
But the devotees they accept and address all women as mother or mataji regardless
of who the women are.
So, why would some women desire to want to be addressed as Prabhus
and not as matajis when they are not men ?
==================================V=================================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
29. May 2013 at 9:17 pm
PD — But even so, for SG to condemn me for writing, “Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu,”
is not right for the following three reasons:
1. Srila Prabhupada himself would sometime address or refer to his female
disciples as “Prabhu.”
SG — Srila Prabhupada, he is the spiritual master. In his transcendental mood
sometimes he addresses women as prabhus. So, does that mean the disciple should
also imitate the guru ? The disciple business is to follow the guru’s instruction
and Srila Prabhupada’s instruction is to address women as mataji not only just
address them as mataji or mother but practice to accept all women other than one’s
own wife, as mother.
Is this difficult for you to understand, Pratyatosa dasa. Don’t get upset. There
are many who are as ignorant as you are on this subject matter including that
woman GBC representative – Mellanie L Nagel/Malati.
HARE KRSNA.
Unless one going seriously through all the stages of the training of sadhana, or vaidhi bhakti at least reached the platform of anartha nivritti how can he, being an honest and realized Vaishnava truthfully see a women, even a devotee as Prabhu. Exception could maybe be rarely and after consideration made for addressing some self effulgent and accomplished devotee matajis who are real devotees of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna in some specific circumstances. I would take the risk to call Sri Govinda Mataji per Prabhu, though I am far even from anartha nivritti stage for now:-( Otherwise the result of such overeacting and cheap sentiments will be subtle sex enjoyment and nothing else, as there is usual the case with things born out of ignorance, like the very imitation tendency in a fallen jiva’s heart.
SG says: that woman GBC representative — Mellanie L Nagel/Malati.
So this is the way you address a well respected woman/senior vaisnavi?
Now your true colors are being revealed, SG. Now it’s obvious to everyone that you are simply a woman-belittling hypocrite.
From <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/9a06da7996f94f0b>:
This is the way I remember it also. To address both men and women as “Prabhu” was the norm, I didn’t know it at the time, but this was obviously because Srila Prabhupada was trying to set the example for us.
This “the Matajis and the Prabhus” nonsense is a recent concoction due to extreme neophyte bodily consciousness due to certain ignorant pretender gurus telling their disciples, “My godbrothers are just envious of me. Don’t listen to them.” Thus, in ISKCON Denmark and ISKCON Sweden at least, where I have seen it firsthand, we have such offenses against women going on.
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
30. May 2013 at 12:28 pm
PD — But even so, for SG to condemn me for writing is
not right (29. May 2013 at 9:17 pm)
PD — Now your true colors are being revealed, SG.
Now it’s obvious to everyone that you are simply a
woman-belittling hypocrite (30. May 2013 at 12:28 pm)
SG — There you go. Hope that makes you happy.
I am now condemned by you. My head down with folded
arms I accept.
HARE KRSNA
SG — There you go. Hope that makes you happy.
I am now condemned by you. My head down with folded
arms I accept.
You accept nothing. No one condemned you. YOU condemned Pratyatosa das on May 26, at 7:05pm when you wrote.
PD — “Mother Rukmini Ramana Prabhu”
SG — What, after 40 years over years of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada
you still do not know how to address a woman ?
————————————————————————
That was YOU SG. YOUR WORDS. Condemning Pratyatosa as being so idiotic that after 40 years he did not know how to address a woman.
Then, after testimony of 3 different devotees (pratyatosa, Malati, Radha-Govinda Mataji) who were there in the beginning who say it was the NORM at the time, you were unable to accept their testimony and stuck with your idea saying.
SG — Srila Prabhupada, he is the spiritual master. In his transcendental mood
sometimes he addresses women as prabhus. So, does that mean the disciple should
also imitate the guru ? The disciple business is to follow the guru’s instruction
and Srila Prabhupada’s instruction is to address women as mataji not only just
address them as mataji or mother but practice to accept all women other than one’s
own wife, as mother.
Of course, in your zealous ignorance you fail to remember that Pratyatosa used the term “MOTHER”!!!
It is just that you objected to his adding Prabhu. So your argument was wrong on all counts!!
And then you went on to hypocritically refer to Malati as “that woman GBC melanie nagel”.
You didn’t use mother OR prabhu.
And Pratyatosa pointed out what you did.
Then you pull a psychological guilt trip and accuse Pratyatosa of “condemning” you. What horsecrap. You condemned yourself with your own ignorance and petty actions. Pratyatosa simply pointed it out.
This has been your pattern ever since I have seen you debating on this forum.
I don’t condemn you, but won’t allow you to escape denying the truth here if I can help it because that would not serve you at all. You should pray to the Lord to be healed of this dishonest tendency.
Good luck
Hare Krsna
I also surrender to the concept of calling Hare Krishna devotees in matajis bodies per “prabhu”, and beg forgiveness for my recent speculations in this regard. As usually is the case with Radha Govinda Swami Prabhu mataji she Her arguments and simply the facts she recalled have fully convinced me. Nothing should be changed from what we have got from the ISKCON Acarya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
y.s.bj
Amar Puri says:
28. May 2013 at 5:15 pm
AP — I wonder why an intelligent person like yourself does not get
the heed in order to understand the Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada
as it is
SG — So, you think I am an intelligent person. Good. Now this intelligent
person says that RITVIK – post samadhi initiation and claiming to be
Srila Prabhupada disciple after his departure from this planet is BOGUS.
Since you are saying the opposite that should make you not so intelligent.
What do you think Amar Puri ? Is this agreeable ?
Since you did not or could not reply to our statement below
” First you go and follow the instruction of the
July 9th letter without interpreting it and then
come and tell how you did it especially that final
line of instruction where Srila Prabhupada instructed
that the initiated names are to be send to him to record
in his initiated disciples book.”
can we return your statement given below back to you ?
” Should you have any sensible reason of your not obeying
the Instructions without any Interpretation, please do write
or else go and fly your kite some where else where it suits
your agenda.”
AP — Now it is up to you to come up with the answer IF you are really an
honest and sincere SEEKER to any question that you may have, SG.
SG — You have already accused us of being offending, defending and interpreting
the Instructions of the Pure Devotee to best suit our respective personal agenda.
So, how can you ask us to come up with our own answer.
We feel its better if you come up with the answers by telling us how after performing
this post samadhi ritvik initiation, you are able to send the initiated names to
Srila Prabhupada for him to record in his initiated disciples’s book. That was his
last line of instruction in his July 9th letter, was it not.
You must note that here Srila Prabhupada did not instruct that the initiated names
must send to his secretary or to any member of the GBC or to any other senior disciples
of his. If his intention for the instruction given in the July 9th letter on the
initiation process was for the future or meant to continue after his departure
from his planet, Srila Prabhupada would have definitely named one of his senior
disciple’s to receive the initiated names. He has delegated practically all aspects
of the initiation process to his senior disciples. So, why should he hold on to the
final part of the initiating process ? Why did he not give this up? He could have easily
named his secretary TKG to receive the initiated names on his behalf since TKG as
his secretary was recording it anyway. But, why he did not do that.?
Srila Prabhupada was specific in his instruction that the initiated names must be
send to him. That was the founder acharya’s direct order in his July 9th 1977 letter.
So, now, come tell us, Amar Puri, how you will do this. How are you going to send the
initiated names to Srila Prabhupada ? How are you going to get the reply confirming
receipt of your letter. There should be a reply, otherwise how will you know he has
received your letter with the initiated names. You have to inform the initiated devotees
that Srila Prabhupada has received your letter and has recorded their names in his (ID)
book thus final confirming acceptance as his disciples.
Next, after the initiation the disciple must beg alms and make a presentation to the
initiating spiritual master. In your case it is to Srila Prabhupada. How will those
initiated disciples do that. Srila Prabhupada is not here to receive it and confirm
receipt.
Here is an example.
” Letter to Mahajan 2 — Los Angeles 25 April, 1973:
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your note along with the $60.00 daksina,
and I thank you very much. Now you have taken this initiation, and it is a very serious matter.
You must always keep very strongly to the principles of Krishna consciousness; rising early,
taking bath, attending mongol aratrik, chanting at least 16 rounds on the beads daily, reading
our books, going for sankirtan as much as possible.”
We have raised this doubts and questions, Amar Puri. Let us have your answers to them.
HARE KRSNA
The process of sending names to be put into Srila Prabhupada’s disciple book was already a practice by which his secretary held the book and entered the names.
So in the July 9th letter, “sending the names to Srila Prabhupada” was just a confirmation of what was already the practice. It didn’t mean that suddenly Srila Prabhupada himself was going to take his secretaries service away from him and personally receive every list of names and enter them into his disciple book.
Such a simple thing.
And after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, the GBC takes over for everything. So with a simple “RESOLUTION” which Srila Prabhupada authorized them to make on any necessary issue, the GBC could say,
RESOLVED: “from this day forwared, the GBC secretary will be the keeper of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples book, and will be the one to receive the names of new disciples and enter them into the book.
RESOLVED: “the GBC secretary is empowered to choose a secretary for each region to collect names of new initiated disciples from the temple secretary in his region, and record them in temporary books, which will be sent to the GBC secretary annually to be recorded in the permanent disciple book kept in the vault at Mayapura.
Such a simple simple simple thing.
I recall how Kailash Chandra was treating Jadurani, like she was his personal foot washing slave when we met them in Santa Cruz. He does not know how to treat Vaishnava women, period. I do not know if he married anyone after that, but pity anyone who may have.
Perhaps his anti-women personna is also why Kailash Chandra still has — nothing to show for all his 35 years of preaching except: a fine view of — the desert in Moab, Utah. Lets see: nice views of razor sharp cactus needles; nice rattlesnakes under your house; nice big tarantulas and other poison spiders all over the place; nice scorpions in your shoes; and big tumbleweed blowing around. And no rain, dry as a bone. And endless miles of dry as a bone rocks and desert as far as the eye can see.
Hardly no people, but the few who do live there eat beef steaks — and little else, where do I sign up? I need to give up my nice views of the California beach and ocean that I have here, and within a short drive, plentiful green grass and cows nearby etc., to live with Jarek’s bone head messiah, in the middle of nowhere?
Sorry, this is the reason no one is joining Jarek’s program, and I do mean no one, ok except a few scorpions, tarantulas, and maybe some desert mice might come to their program. Then again Kailash dresses like a cowboy there, so no one could even find him if they wanted to. He has merged with the material energy totally. And worse, his whole town of Moab is all 100 percent Christian ritviks. He could not live there for five days without these ritviks taking care of him.
Anyway, these pro-guru people are almost always anti-women, anti-children, anti-family and in sum, the pro-bogus guru folks are almost always — tyrants with women, and worse, even tyrants with children. Is there a pattern here? Ok, they are often eccentric nut jobs who cannot do much of anything on their own, they are unable to function practically speaking. And this is why, women are always leaving this movement all the time in droves, these nutty control freak women abuser pro-gurus, or guru wanna be types like KD, are frying them out. Who can blame them? ys pd
Dear SG Prabhu,
AGTSP. PAMHO.
All the answers to your questions are there in your own comments.
I respectfully beg from you to kindly read and re-read your own comments and try to read the answer in a humble state of mind.
For an example, I try to walk you through your own writing in which you have a question stating ; ” Next, after the initiation the disciple must beg alms and make a presentation to the
initiating spiritual master. In your case it is to Srila Prabhupada. How will those
initiated disciples do that. Srila Prabhupada is not here to receive it and confirm
receipt.”
The reply is stated by HDG. Srila Prabhupada as an Instructions quoted by you in his letter dated 25 April, 1973 which reads as ; ” You must always keep very strongly to the principles of Krishna consciousness; rising early, taking bath, attending mongol aratrik, chanting at least 16 rounds on the beads daily, reading our books, going for sankirtan as much as possible.”
Is that not equal to begging the alms by following and rendering service to the Spiritual Master HDG. Srila Prabhupada as He asks and desires that His Instructions be followed by all of His sincere and serious followers, SG. Prabhu ?????????
Therefore, I humbly request you once again to please try to find the answers to your questions in the Instructions (VANI) of Srila Prabhupada because Srila Prabhupada says that all the answers are there in His Instructions as per the example shown above.
Hope it meets you well, SG. Prabhu.
OM TAT SAT.
“
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.18: “By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.”
Srila Prabhupada than says in His purport:
“Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhāgavatas. There are two types of Bhāgavatas, namely the book Bhāgavata and the devotee Bhāgavata. Both the Bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhāgavata is as good as the book Bhāgavata because the devotee Bhāgavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhāgavata and the book Bhāgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhāgavatas. Bhāgavata book and person are identical….”
Try to see, there it is said:” Both the Bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles.” Both or either of the Bhagavatas are equally able to guide the disciple. What the hell is the need then to concoct a new cheap guru scam and thus damn everything? There are so many comments, instructions etc. on guru tattva which will have and certainly will be in due course of time deleted and rejected as the ritvik cancer malady will spread, as there is always the case with cheating religions and their envious promoters. Verses as this one clearly show how there is always Sri Guru present, and that no one has to feel left alone in despair, rather we should take the guidance of the divine comments of Srila Prabhupada Acarya, as they are completely sufficient to guide and save us from all kinds of illusion.
Amar Puri says:
31. May 2013 at 4:03 am
AP — For an example, I try to walk you through your own writing in
which you have a question stating ; ” Next, after the initiation the
disciple must beg alms and make a presentation to the initiating
spiritual master. In your case it is to Srila Prabhupada. How will
those initiated disciples do that. Srila Prabhupada is not here to
receive it and confirm receipt.”
The reply is stated by HDG. Srila Prabhupada as an Instructions quoted
by you in his letter dated 25 April, 1973 which reads as ; ” You must
always keep very strongly to the principles of Krishna consciousness;
rising early, taking bath, attending mongol aratrik, chanting at least
16 rounds on the beads daily, reading our books, going for sankirtan
as much as possible.”
Is that not equal to begging the alms by following and rendering service
to the Spiritual Master HDG. Srila Prabhupada as He asks and desires that
His Instructions be followed by all of His sincere and serious followers,
SG. Prabhu ?????????
SG — You are amusing, Amar Puri. You really have no idea, do you? You
equate begging alms and offering to the guru daksina as being equal to the
spiritual master’s instructions of rising early, taking bath, attending mongol
aratrik, chanting at least 16 rounds on the beads daily, reading our books,
going for sankirtan.
You may want to review your acceptance of post samadhi ritvik initiation
promoted by the ritviks.
HARE KRSNA
“What the hell is the need then to concoct a new cheap guru scam and thus damn everything?”
Before Bh. Jarek yields to despair and authorities put him away there is the option of accepting “The Avanti Brahmin’s 24 Gurus” (http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=10173). If Bh. Jarek is unable to find a bona fide guru he might hyperventilate and at one point collapse? So better he accepts a guru he can see with his eyes or even touch. Isn’t this a nice proposal?
Modern neo-Vaishnavas go nuts when you tell them to accept a guru who is not physically present. What can be done? Doesn’t it has become evident since many years? Christians understand that Jesus is fully present although physically in Vaikuntha, whereas present Vaishnava institutions are far from this understanding.
Even at the risk a cheater is sitting on the vyasasana – they immediately pay prostrated dandavats. So these folks require an embodied guru because they themselves are – on the bodily platform. Proof is that when you tell them this they get angry. Very angry. This type of symptom is found in kanistha adikari only. So that’s what we have to deal with?
And all those supporting Prabhupada disciples who reside in villa quarters, drive fancy cars, live off their parents’ fortune, keep long hair….are de facto – same caliber, kanistha.
As soon they feel surrounded, encircled, it goes: “woof, woof”. Not so much quoting sastra. Or, “bowing out” – more elegant description of slamming doors.
Of course reformation has to go on. But unless another “guru” bites the dust these folks won’t listen to anything.
Besides, even when they officially turn to ritvik because their “gurus” refuse masquerading as fully realized uttama maha-bhagavats, by hook or by crock they want to keep control.
They might officially declare ISKCON as ritvik (with firework display, oecumenic press conference, gala dinner, etc. ) but those reformers who tried to reform from outside because they were kicked out during zonal acarya tyranny, they still remain banned. This is ISKCON intelligence.
Dear bhaktin Rose you concocted your mind said; “Modern neo-Vaishnavas go nuts when you tell them to accept a guru who is not physically present. What can be done?”
This is why I proposed you all ritviks to listen to a lecture from Aindra Prabhu( still available under http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5jIf9jOd-o
where He kindly explains how differently Sri Guru may appear to us. This is still possible to hear before your ritvik cheated mind produces the rubbish things about the guru issue. I do not have any slightest problem with the Guru issue, since as I try explain to You folks there is no problem at all, the only problem is that the austerity of mind control must be undertaken by us before we realize that the mind with his functions of thinking, feeling and willing is not us. This may be hard for you to understand being intoxicated with the anti FISCKON and anti guru sectarian slogans based on bodily platform.
Of course, when I said there is a child molesting problem, people like Bhakta Jarek’s “living messiah” Kailash Chandra das — was working for the GBC gurus — because, he was begging them to “find me a wife.” He was told by the bogus gurus, ok, you have to write a paper to defend us, and then we will give you a wife — because, all these people think women are like their personally owned property to be traded for being your personal slaves.
So, KCD wrote a paper for them (which was being advertised by Trivrikrama swami as a paper showing “even Kailash chandra is supporting us”). Then, they never gave him a wife, hee hee. The cheaters and the cheated.
At the time, people were saying, “Kailash is working with these bogus gurus to get a wife from them, because his brains are between his legs.” Yes, he was meditating on sex life and not Srila Prabhupada and Krishna. Anyway, Bhakta Jarek’s Moab Utah “living messiah” is one of the people who thus caused the horrendous situation we discuss in the video link below, by his acquiescing with these bogus gurus and even writing papers to support them:
http://youtu.be/DqYjk3xNWJ4
Kailash is a prime example of the compromisers class of people who allowed all this to happen, he tried to defend the evil empire and oppress us, and that is why he is guilty of helping cause all the things we mention in the video. ys pd
Why are some women in iskcon shy to be addressed as
mother or as mataji ? What is it that they feel shameful
about it ? Why do they want to be called as prabhu the
word used to address men ? Do they feel that by being
called mother they become less a woman ? Has the word
‘mother or mataji’ have become a bad word ? Do some
of this women in Iskcon feel that by being called as mother
or mataji their prestige ( whatever that be) will be lost ?
Why do some women call themselves as Bhaktin so n so while
some call themselves as so n so dd. What does dd represent.
What happen to so n so dasi.
Srila Prabhupada says the following —
Lecture on SB 1.16.10 on January 7, 1974 in Los Angeles:
“From five years old, if a child is trained to call all woman as “Mother,”
naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned to call all woman as
“Mother.” He has no other idea. A small child, any woman comes before him, he
knows “(S)He is my mother.” So this was the practice. That is not only
religiously, but morally, it is so good, to look upon all woman as mother. That
is the system still in India, any unknown woman who has no introduction with
you, (s)he is addressed “Mataji.” Address her. She may be just like daughter or
granddaughter, but one would address, as a respect to the woman, as “Mother,
Mataji.” This is Indian system. Now some rascals have introduced “Bhaginiji,
sister.” But that is not shastric. In the sastra, all the woman, except one’s
wife, should be addressed as “Mother.”
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Lecture on SB 1.16.23 — Los Angeles, July 13, 1974:
So one instruction is that the earth is addressed, “amba.” Amba means mother.
So the earth is also our mother. There are seven kinds of mother: atma-mata
guroh patni. Real mother, from whose womb we have taken birth, she is called
atma-mata, first mother. Then second mother, the guroh patni. Guru means
teacher or spiritual master. His wife, she’s also… Actually, according to
strict moral instruction… Why strict? Ordinary. Any woman except his own
wife is mother. Any woman. It doesn’t matter whether she is elderly or young.
No. That is the way. Still in India, any woman by unknown person, he can address
any woman “Mother.” The first relationship is mother. Now they have introduced
“Sister,” “Bahinaji.” No, that is not Vedic etiquette. No bahinaji. Bahinaji
means sister. Mother. Everyone should be addressed. We should learn this. Except
one’s one wife, all women should be addressed as “Mother.” This is civilization.
Then there will be no corrupt relation. If you, from the very beginning, you
establish your relationship with other women as mother, then there is no question
of other relationship.
In India still, women, especially in asramas, any woman, visitor, she is addressed
as “Mother”. She may be young girl, but she is addressed as “Mother.” This is the
etiquette. “Mother, what can I help you?” This is the very relationship.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu, all women,
“my mother.” Then it will be possible to live. Therefore the etiquette is to address every
woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Morning Walk — November 2, 1975, Nairobi:
Indian man (4): And their theory is that… I asked Vipramukhya Swami that “Why you have
put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?”
He said that, “We should avoid.” But I said, “Well, okay, when you are walking on the
road automatically you will see the ladies.” He said, “We turn our face to one side.”
I said, “First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning.” (laughter) “You will
look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know.”
Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu,
all women, “my mother.” Then it will be possible to live… Therefore the etiquette is to
address every woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.
Brahmananda: You say like “Mother Rukmini”? There’s a devotee named Rukmini. You say,
“Mother Rukmini”? How do you address a woman? Do you say, “Mother,” and then the name of
the devotee?
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply.
Brahmananda: Just “Mother.”
Prabhupada: Yes. They should be addressed, “Mother.” That will train.
Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don’t call the name of the mother never,
children don’t.
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply “mother,” that’s all. And if the woman treats man as
son, then it is all right. It is safe.
Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use “ji.” “Mataji”, “Pitaji,”
“Brataji,” “Bahinji.”
Prabhupada: Or… And the woman says, “Beta.” That’s all right.
Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we’re accustomed to not like our mothers.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (5): In the West we don’t like our mothers.
Prabhupada: So you should forget your West or East. (break)
Brahmananda: Similarly, wife should not be called “Mother.”
Prabhupada: No. Therefore it is said, “other’s wife,” not your wife. But Ramakrishnan,
he was saying his wife “mother,” and he became famous by this foolishness.
Indian man (4): Ramakrishnan, there are many like Shyama mother. Her husband, he calls
her “mother.”
Prabhupada: Just see. In the Brahma-samaj they call the wife as “sister,” and the wife
calls the husband “brother,” address like that.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Lecture on SB 1.16.10 on January 7, 1974 in Los Angeles:
“From five years old, if a child is trained to call all woman as “Mother”,
naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned to call all woman as
“Mother.” He has no other idea. A small child, any woman comes before him, he
knows “(S)He is my mother.” So this was the practice. That is not only
religiously, but morally, it is so good, to look upon all woman as mother. That
is the system still in India, any unknown woman who has no introduction with
you, (s)he is addressed “Mataji.” Address her. She may be just like daughter or
granddaughter, but one would address, as a respect to the woman, as “Mother,
Mataji.” This is Indian system. Now some rascals have introduced “Bhaginiji,
sister.” But that is not shastric. In the sastra, all the woman, except one’s
wife, should be addressed as “Mother.” ”
HARE KRSNA
SG. Prabhu writes ; ” SG — You are amusing, Amar Puri. You really have no idea, do you? You equate begging alms and offering to the guru daksina as being equal to the spiritual master’s instructions of rising early, taking bath, attending mongol aratrik, chanting at least 16 rounds on the beads daily, reading our books, going for sankirtan.
You may want to review your acceptance of post samadhi ritvik initiation promoted by the ritviks.”
My view of acceptance of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada is that HDG. is always in SAMADHI during His presence or absence as explained nicely in my comments.
But your problem is simply that you and your associates refuse and reject the presence of the VAPU in His VANI and start interpretation the way it best suits your agenda under the influence of the different 81 categories of the mode of the material nature instead of accepting and obeying as many others and I do accept and obey the Instructions of the present Acaraya HDG. Srila Prabhupada in His Iskcon world wide Institution which He governs with His sincere and serious followers world wide. That is the difference.
SG. Prabhu, do you accept and obey HDG. Srila Prabhupada is present as a VAPU in His VANI?
Also, please answer ; Did Srila Prabhupada beg alms, flour / atta, sugar, dal, fruits, vegetables etc. and offer it to His Spiritual Master Srila BSST Gosvami Pamahansa Thakur?
Did Srila Prabhupada’s own disciple beg alms in the same form of begging atta, sugar and dal etc.?
If your answer is YES, then please recite an example.
If NOT, then, you are wasting not only your time but also getting into further deeper confusion by yourself. Isn’t it?
I hope you do answer these questions.
In the mean time, please once again I beg from you to read and follow Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions as it is without any of your sense gratification in order to make your life sublime in cultivating KC.
Hope it meets you well, SG. Prabhu.
OM TAT SAT.
Yes, its been totally embarassing for us to watch people like Bhakta Jarek’s guru Kalaish to be barking orders at someone like Jadurani while calling her “prabhu,” “Prabhu do this for me, prabhu go get my tea, prabhu there is not enough sugar in my tea, prabhu worship my socks, etc” this is simply an offense to these titles. Do you think these women are fooled for one minute by giving them a big fancy title? The respect has to be there — actually, it barely does not matter what title you use when there is no actual emotion, feeling and sentiment. That is the real problem. ys pd
Puranjana das says:
31. May 2013 at 10:57 pm
PD — Yes, its been totally embarrassing for us …………
Dear Puranjana dasa, some history please, if you know something
about it. Why are some women in Iskcon shy to be addressed
as mothers? Why do they want to be addressed as prabhus ?
Is not being a mother a honorable position in our society ?
How can they be so ignorant not to understand this ?
HARE KRSNA
The idea that women should be called mother was never implemented on a wide scale around the society. Women were generally called prabhu. At other times, a woman was called “a mataji,” and a group of women were “matajis,” while at other times they were called prabhu, or prabhus. There was never a uniform policy established society-wide that I recall.
My feeling today is that since 1977 women were marginalized and exploited, so, at this point we need to have a genuine concern for them, — or they will not come back and participate. We have a lot of women here at our Sunnyvale temple because we respect them, and give them a post of leading kirtanas and so on, and we facilitate their children with Sunday school and so on.
Right now we need to give them real respect, and they will come back to ISKCON. I am not sure whether calling them mother or prabhu will matter that much at this point, if they are being marginalized out, as has been going on. Our real effort right now is to develop genuine love and respect for them, “love and trust is the basis of my movement” as Srila Prabhupada says. Personally, whether we call them either mother or prabhu is, at this point, not our bigger concern. Whatever makes a particular woman comfortable at this point, should be used for her, that is my opinion at this point. ys pd
SG how disingenuous can you be? Puranjana just said what he saw happen! reread it. Or do you expect that he had a video tape recording of the events between Kailash and Jadurani back in the 70s?? Get real.
How can you be so ignorant as to not understand that you don’t change a standard according to the way the wind blows?
According to you, if there are a few nasty women who will take advantage of being called Prabhu then we should not call any women Prabhu??
You say we should call all men Prabhu.
What about all the men who lord it over others. They LOVE to be called “master” although they haven’t even mastered themselves and just want others to serve them. It gives them a big head.
So maybe you should advocate that we call them Father instead?
What other practices and standards should we alter or disregard because you think someone might take advantage of it or be offended by it.
Go ahead, you might as well do what you have always wanted. Write the book. Gaudiya Vaisnava Bhakti Sadhana according to SG. It will be a best seller! You will be the most famous “Prabhu” in the world!
Amar Puri says:
31. May 2013 at 8:13 pm
AP — SG. Prabhu, do you accept and obey HDG. Srila Prabhupada
is present as a VAPU in His VANI?
SG — You should explain what is vapu and what is vani and how
Srila Prabhupada is present as vapu in his vani. This is new to us.
Has Srila Prabhupada said that he is present as vapu in his vani ?
AP — Also, please answer ; Did Srila Prabhupada beg alms, flour /
atta, sugar, dal, fruits, vegetables etc. and offer it to His
Spiritual Master Srila BSST Gosvami Pamahansa Thakur? Did Srila Prabhupada’s
own disciple beg alms in the same form of begging atta, sugar and dal etc.?
SG — Why don’t you ask your guru maharaj Srila Prabhupada. He initiated you,
did he not? Have your initiating representatives sent the your initiated name
to Srila Prabhupada ? Has Srila Prabhupada received it.? So, he being your guru
is the best person to answer your question. You can get your answers directly
from him. Then let us know, we who are ‘under influence of the different 81
categories of the mode of the material nature’ when and what he told you about
begging alms (Guru Daksina).
AP — If your answer is YES, then please recite an example.
SG — Giving you examples or quotes are not good, Amar Puri. The last quote
I gave you, you chopped it up and made kichari out of it. Since Srila Prabhupada
is there, you should ask him. No need for example or quotes any more. We may say
something and you can always verify with with your guru. Example, his initiated
disciples were doing it either directly or through correspondence. You can do the
same.
AP — Did Srila Prabhupada beg alms, flour / atta, sugar, dal, fruits, vegetables
etc.?
SG — Am
HARE KRSNA
Srila Prabhupada said he would live forever in his books, hence the books are his current vapu form, and he said that right here in Berkeley in 1975. And we can still ask him a question, “Are the GBC’s and their illicit sex acharyas program bona fide?” And the answer he gives is, “gurusuh narah matih — narakah sah,” i.e. anyone who says gurus are ordinary fallen men are residents of hell. That means, the entire GBC body and their illicit sex guru siddhanta rates them as residents of narakah. Yep, he has a good answer for them. They are narakis. Any other questions? ys pd
SG. as usual, I find your answer is always offensive to the Instructions – VANI of the VAPU – HDG Srila Prabhupada because you do not believe in the VANI of the VAPU and yet you dare to play defensive in your writing in order to protect and promote what you believe in your hidden agenda.
Thus playing, offensive and defensive games are on a mundane platform and as such no body can satisfy any body such as YOU and YOUR associates under these circumstances when you play mundane games of offending the Instructions – VANI of the VAPU – HDG Srila Prabhupada by NOT FOLLOWING and OBEYING as is, and continue in defending your mundane hidden agenda.
Therefore, I find it simply a waste of my time.
Hari BOL.
Puranjana das says:
2. June 2013 at 3:13 pm
PD — Srila Prabhupada said he would live forever in his books,
hence the books are his current vapu form, and he said that right
here in Berkeley in 1975.
SG –If his books are his vapu form then what is his vani form
and what is his murti form?
750716pc.sf Conversations
=========================
Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States
when you die?
Prabhupada: I WILL NEVER DIE.
Prabhupada: I SHALL LIVE FROM MY BOOKS, AND YOU WILL UTILIZE.
690113LE.LA Lectures
====================
“vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means
the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body.
Not concerned means… We are concerned, of course, because the
spiritual master, those who are acaryas, their body is not considered
as material.
Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue
of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye
sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept
their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras.
SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD
BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION.
WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.”
PD — And we can still ask him a question, “Are the GBC’s and their
illicit sex acharyas program bona fide?” And the answer he gives is,
“gurusuh narah matih — narakah sah,” i.e. anyone who says gurus are
ordinary fallen men are residents of hell. That means, the entire GBC
body and their illicit sex guru siddhanta rates them as residents of
narakah. Yep, he has a good answer for them. They are narakis.
SG — How sure are you, Puranjana dasa that they are all illicit sex
acharyas and fallen ? What if 1 or 2 or 3 among them maintain their
position as gurus without any illicit activities of any kind till
their departure from this planet? What then ? Does this mean that
this statement that you made also applies to you – “anyone who says
gurus are ordinary fallen men are residents of hell.”
SB 4.21.48
==========
Prthu Maharaja was blessed by the saintly persons present at the
meeting to have a long life because of his unflinching faith and
his devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Although one’s duration of life is limited in years, if by chance
one becomes a devotee, he surpasses the duration prescribed for his
life; indeed, sometimes yogis die according to their wish, not according
to the laws of material nature. Another feature of a devotee is that
he lives forever because of his infallible devotion to the Lord.
It is said, KIRTIR YASYA SA JIVATI:
“ONE WHO LEAVES A GOOD REPUTATION BEHIND HIM LIVES FOREVER.”
SPECIFICALLY, ONE WHO IS REPUTED AS A DEVOTEE OF THE LORD
UNDOUBTEDLY LIVES FOREVER.
When Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu was talking with Ramananda Raya,
Caitanya Mahaprabhu inquired, “What is the greatest reputation?”
Ramananda Raya replied that a person who is reputed as a great
devotee has the greatest reputation, for a devotee not only lives
forever in the Vaikuntha planets, but by his reputation he also
lives forever within this material world.
HARE KRSNA
OK, the vani, the vapu, the murti, the books, they are all the same thing, spiritualized representations of the acharya. Just like the deity of Krishna is His vapu form, His words are His vani form, and so on, thus we never say Krishna is absent when He is present in His murti, His Bhagavad Gita and so forth.
Now you are saying some of the GBC gurus “might” be following, so we should give those people a free pass. OK we need to know who those people are, or even if they exist at all, and examine if they have separated themselves from the notion that acharyas are falling down, acharyas are voted in, and etc. You cannot say there is a piece of gold in one of the trash dumpsters in Los Angeles? We need to know where it is, — or that information is useless, we will never find that gold if we spent our whole lives. You have to tell us which of them has the gold piece, if there are any.
And what are they following? Srila Prabhupada or — the Jayadvaita / GBC guru program and their idea, since 1978, that acharyas are falling down into illicit sex, drugs, criminal behaviors and so and and so forth. Over the years I have cited numerous GBC guru position papers, GBC annual reports, GBC lectures, GBC guru’s personal letters, and of course GBC gurus personal statements to me, and so on and so forth, where they have supported the official (apa) siddhanta that the acharyas are falling into illusion worse than the ordinary man would. Which GBC gurus are defending Srila Prabhupada’s ideas and attacking these bogus GBC gurus ideas?
Bhakti Vikas swami is supposed to be the darling of the reformers, but his disciples are arguing with me right now, and not answering even one of our questions to date. BVKS disciples are preaching even worse things than the GBC, now they are saying we need to check Srila Prabhupada’s books for siddhanta errors, by comparing his books to the Goswamis. What! The disciples of BVKS are now the “over writers” of Srila Prabhupada? I reviewed just a few of the GBC’s bogus documents here and asked the BVKS people to respond: http://youtu.be/DyQ4aBbN5pk
How did you guess, no reply from the Bhakti Vikas swami choir? They cannot reply because, there is no good reply, other than to admit, the GBC documents are faulty and so is BVKS for supporting a group that makes faulty documents. If you can answer the points on our video, I welcome that. Problem is, none of you folks have answered even one of my questions since 1978? ys pd
Amar Puri says:
2. June 2013 at 7:41 pm
AP — SG. as usual, I find your answer is always offensive to the Instructions —
VANI of the VAPU — HDG. Srila Prabhupada because you do not believe in the
VANI of the VAPU and yet you dare to play defensive in your writing in order
to protect and promote what you believe in your hidden agenda.
SG — Amar Puri, Your whole book on ritvik doctrine is empty except for this
four words – post samadhi ritvik initiation, which you are trying to promote
by interpreting the July 9th 1977 letter.
The ritvik representatives were acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, the initiated
devotees were his disciples, therefore his instruction to them was that the initiated
names must be send to him, the spiritual master himself wanted to receive the
initiated names, so that he could record them in his initiated disciples’s book.
That was his final and last line of instruction on his July 9th 1977 letter. The
initiation process completes. And this last and final line of instruction can’t
be followed unless Srila Prabhupada is present.
And you keep preaching to everyone to follow the instruction without interpretation
yet you shamelessly don’t follow what you preach. Your post samadhi ritvik initiation
process is based on false understanding.
As far as the spiritual activities such as the practice of devotional service, they
are the same as with Iskcon except for the distribution of Srila Prabhupada books,
theirs are the corrupted versions and yours are the originals.
HARE KRSNA
OK, the GBC initiates people into their illicit sex acharyas process, why is that the better process? Lion TV is doing a special on the Hare Krishna crimes (of these bogus gurus) — “Deadly Devotion” is premiering Tuesday night, June 4th at 9/ 8c. The Hare Krishna episode airs on 7/2. Is this the parampara we should accept? ys pd (To find out about local times for you to watch the show, call Lion TV in New York City @ 212-206-8633)
SG. you are a LIAR and a CHEATER. Why, because you misrepresent the Intent and Purpose of the July 9th Letter containing the Initiating Instructions by HDG. Srila Prabhupada under the influence of the mode of material nature like the present Iskcon Leaders of all kind to protect and promote your hidden agenda.
You have to be an INSANE when you write as such ; ” The ritvik representatives were acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, the initiated devotees were his disciples, therefore his instruction to them was that the initiated names must be send to him, the spiritual master himself wanted to receive the initiated names, so that he could record them in his initiated disciples’s book. That was his final and last line of instruction on his July 9th 1977 letter. The initiation process completes. And this last and final line of instruction can’t be followed unless Srila Prabhupada is present. ”
Here is my one of the email reply to Rocana on this topic which he refuses to publish it.
” The sentence simply instructs that the name of the Initiated Disciples to be included in His Initiated Disciples’ Book. You can not send the name to any where you please as you ridiculously said Roacana Prabhu. NO. Not at all. This is not the instructions.
The instructions are very simple in the July 9th letter which reads ;
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”
It is very obvious you like to interpret like the present self made gurus / GBC . in Iskcon who have changed Srila Prabhupada’s books in whole sale to alter the instructions in order to best suit their respective agenda and in your case, your personal creation of the thesis DOR. These are the deviations in the present Iskcon and you are part of it.
Rocana Prabhu, you have already tried to mislead me in your previous email with different twist and turn to which I answered and questioned you where you were wrong under reference. Now you are bringing up another twist and turn of interpretation with regard to grammatically wrong / broken flaw in the Instructions which simply shows that you have indeed personal agenda to protect and promote your convictions in the misleading thesis of your DOR. There is nothing I can do.
SG. your above writing indicates strongly that you are yearning for a PRATHISTHA of some sort.
For an example, when an intelligent person comes to think about and understand that there were present all types of personalities, Mayavadi, Sunnyavadi and Bhaktivadi, Rsis and Munis of different gradation in that Assembly of the Maharaja Prikshat when He was fortunate enough to hear the greatest Transcendental Instructions – VANI of the glorious Srimad Bhagavatam directly from the Self Realized personality Srila Sukhdev Gosvami Maharaj’s Lotus mouth. Did every one understand that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Shri Krishna and His Activities on the same platform of Maharaja Prikshat, Srila Vyasdev and Srila Narad Muni ? NO, Not at all. WHY, because of different gradation of the Intent and Purpose of the Individuals.
Similarly, the Instructions of July 9th letter are being understood by everyone on a different platform of understanding of knowing individual’s Intent and Purpose based on ones’ level of Nistha to cultivate KC.
Therefore, that is why I wrote in my comments that it is waste of my time to share my little knowledge of understanding the Transcendental Initiating Instructions – VANI of the VAPU Srila Prabhupada with all those who are not AT ALL receptive to follow and obey the Instructions because of their different platform in which you, SG, are one of them.
SG. it proves that you do not accept and obey Srila Prabhupada’s INSTRUCTIONS and thus, continuously keep on playing the same MISLEADING mundane games of offending and defending in order to promote and protect your hidden agenda.
Therefore, please rest assured that there is no further discussion from me because it is simply a waste of my time.
Hope it meets you satisfactory.
OM TAT SAT.
SG wrote: “The ritvik representatives were acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, the initiated
devotees were his disciples, therefore his instruction to them was that the initiated
names must be send to him, the spiritual master himself wanted to receive the
initiated names, so that he could record them in his initiated disciples’s book.
That was his final and last line of instruction on his July 9th 1977 letter. The
initiation process completes. And this last and final line of instruction can’t
be followed unless Srila Prabhupada is present.”
I already defeated this on May 30th, and you ignored it. Silence means consent and defeat.
I will refresh your memory.
“The process of sending names to be put into Srila Prabhupada’s disciple book was already a practice by which his secretary held the book and entered the names.
So in the July 9th letter, “sending the names to Srila Prabhupada” was just a confirmation of what was already the practice. It didn’t mean that suddenly Srila Prabhupada himself was going to take his secretaries service away from him and personally receive every list of names and enter them into his disciple book.
Such a simple thing.
And after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, the GBC takes over for everything. So with a simple “RESOLUTION” which Srila Prabhupada authorized them to make on any necessary issue, the GBC could say,
RESOLVED: “from this day forwared, the GBC secretary will be the keeper of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples book, and will be the one to receive the names of new disciples and enter them into the book.
RESOLVED: “the GBC secretary is empowered to choose a secretary for each region to collect names of new initiated disciples from the temple secretary in his region, and record them in temporary books, which will be sent to the GBC secretary annually to be recorded in the permanent disciple book kept in the vault at Mayapura.
Such a simple simple simple thing.
Reading Srila Prabhupada books we are getting gradually a complete freedom and step by step everything becomes clear to our very self. Unfortunately when we let ourselves distract from the pure vaidhi bhakti path by some sects like FISKCON or it’s counterpart in form of egoistic ritvik vadis the beautiful story ends and we are put by such fanatics into darkness of distress, blind acceptance on one sight and stubborn resistance on the other one to the pure logic and clarity of the original teachings of the vaishnava acarya’s.
Dear Jarek prabhu, OK this is good, so you admit, you have no program at all. You are another Kailash Chandra, who is against the GBC gurus, and against the people who worship Srila Prabhupada (the ritviks). Your only authority and example for us is — Kailash Chandra, who has been sitting in Moab Utah for 30 years: counting the tumbleweeds blowing by his front door; checking his shoes before he puts them on for scorpions; hanging out all day long with the Christian ritvks in Moab.
Yes your hero Kailash only associates with the Christian ritviks all day long and no one else. And you folks are avoiding all Vaishnava association, saying the ritviks are bogus. Meanwhile Kailash is living exclusively with no one else but the Chrstian ritviks, like Kailash has been doing for 30 years, and meanwhile — producing no temples, no devotees, no books, no festivals, no kirtanas, no harinama, no nothing, ever, to help humanity.
You belong with Kailash! When are you moving to Moab so you can sit next to the fool on the hill with him? Or are you not going to follow what you want us to follow? Which makes you a hypocrite as well?
And this is why the TV people are interviewing me and not Kailash, they know that people like Kailash wrote papers to support the bogus gurus, so he has been aiding and abetting the criminals posing as acharyas, he is simply — one of the criminals himself. OK he is not the shooter in the bank robbery, but he is one of the getaway car drivers. And now he is too embarrassed to explain that, so he is hiding in the hills. That is where he belongs. Yes, he says we are wrong, but he writes papers for the molester messiahs, his main sympathy is — with them. And your attacking us, helps them as well. You are like your master, his main effort is to help them, and you are his clone disciple. ys pd
From The Heart of Transcendental Book Distribution by His Grace Aindra das Prabhu:
Dear Jarek prabhu, We agree. And that is why Aindra dasa says that Srila Prabhupada is the shiksha and diksha guru of ISKCON. We agree with that fully. Aindra dasa also says the GBC gurus and their fool on the hill bogus supporters like Kailash Chandra dasa are bogus. We also agree. And that is why our program is expanding and the bogus GBC’s and Kailash’s false gurus program is — diminishing. We are expanding because — we are not suffocating people the way Kailash suffocated Jadurani by acting as her tyrant over-lord master. We are not masters, we are servants. And that is why we are attracting people and they are not. ys pd
Srila Prabhupada’s INTENT, (his ORDER in fact) was, as confirmed in the July 9th letter/document and also later confirmed by his very close godbrother, BV Puri Maharaj, to have his selected ritvik representatives to carry on the process of initiation in his society, according to the instructions of July 9th.
Puri Maharaja said to Srila Prabhupada “…you have created 11 gurus..there will be trouble. Prabhupada replied to him ‘…no I have selected ritviks, NOT gurus’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cKP1gU46A
How clear can that be! You can debate forever sastrically or or with whatever limited intelligence we have as to the ‘bonafides’ of that instruction, however Srila Prabhupada’s divine words are our life and soul.
One might erroneously question the right of Srila Prabhupada to make such adjustments, but we can see over the short 12 years of his manifest lila with us he made so many adjustments, reducing the number of japa rounds, concessions to engage the women in Deity worship, what to speak of even as a sannyasa, performing the marriage ceremony for his initiated fallen sannyasa…unheard of in Vedic terms.
In his Bhaktivedanta Purport, SB 4.8.54…Srila Prabhupada states
“Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.” (emphasis added).
So this is exactly what Srila Prabhupada has done. He set up a plan by his special mercy for his Society as the Founder-Acharya, for initiations to continue on his behalf henceforward.
I also apologize to any Vaisnavas that I may have offended in the past, especially during the bogus zonal acharya era and beg for their mercy that I may remain in the dust of Srila Prabhupada’s lotus feet.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Puranjana said:
“Dear Jarek prabhu, We agree. And that is why Aindra dasa says that Srila Prabhupada is the shiksha and diksha guru of ISKCON. We agree with that fully.”
Now you offend Aindra das Prabhu ascribing to Him words and views which He never shared nor spread in any way. Give one quote of His support to the ritvik concoction.
Dear Jarek, Sorry! Aindra DOES say that Srila Prabhubhupada is the shiksha and diksha guru (see his quote below). I have posted this more than a few times, I am amazed you do not even read what he says, then you make comments about what he says? First of all, read the topics BEFORE you comment!
Sorry, that is what he said. now you are offending him by calling him a fool for saying that? Aindra is saying what we are also saying, i.e. Srila Prabhupada is the shiksha and diksha guru, and he also says, your Kailash Chandra supported GBC gurus are bogus, and that is what we ALSO say. In sum, Aindra says your party is bogus, that is what he says over and over and over. You are not reading what he says.
And we said the books are giving divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha). And Aindra ALSO says his books are what we all need to read right now as our source of knowledge, ok, again, which is ALSO what we said!
Whereas you have no source of diksha, so you cannot save a flea. Meanwhile, your fool on the hill bogus messiah Kailash is simply preaching to tumbleweed and doing nothing. You folks cannot even save one tumbleweed. ys pd
[Aindra Dasa Prabhu: […] You should know that the highest service is to serve the instructions of A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhuad who is both our Diksha and Siksha guru in that he is the representative of both our Diksha sampradaya and our Siksha sampradaya.]
Balaram das says:
5. June 2013 at 5:21 am
Srila Prabhupada’s INTENT, (his ORDER in fact) was, as confirmed in the July 9th letter/document and also later confirmed by his very close godbrother, BV Puri Maharaj, to have his selected ritvik representatives to carry on the process of initiation in his society, according to the instructions of July 9th.
Puri Maharaja said to Srila Prabhupada “…you have created 11 gurus..there will be trouble. Prabhupada replied to him ‘…no I have selected ritviks, NOT gurus’.
httpv://youtu.be/Y-cKP1gU46A
How clear can that be! You can debate forever sastrically or or with whatever limited intelligence we have as to the ‘bonafides’ of that instruction, however Srila Prabhupada’s divine words are our life and soul.
It all sounds so dramatically! But what really said HDG Bhaktivaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja, did he say this to support the ritvik interpretation of the initiation practices used by Srila Prabhupada? NO, NO, NO! Did Srila Prabhupada said something to support your crazy ideas in this connection? NO one single word! It is all concocted by Bhakti Rakshaka Sriddhar Swami 10 years after the departure of Srila Prabhupada which sprouted then and infected some fallen folks like the guys from Vedic Village and so on. By the way no one is here saying anything like: Srila Prabhupada can’t do this or that, what we say is that He never does anything which is not fully directly supported by sastra, sadhu and predecessor acaryas. You can fool yourself but not me
Balaram das.
Bhakti means devotion, Bhakta means devotee, what does Bhaktin mean ?
Why do some women devotees start their names with Bhaktin ?
Dasa means servant, Dasi means servant, what does Devi Dasi mean ?
Why do some women devotees end their names with Devi Dasi ?
Mataji means Mother generally used to address women regardless of whether
they are devotees or not. (By devotees)
Prabhu means Master generally used to address men regardless of whether
they are devotees or not. (By devotees)
Why do some men devotees address women devotees as mataji.name.prabhu?
So, what does Mataji.name. Prabhu mean ?
There is a manual published by the Sri Sri Radha Gopinath Mandir, Chowpatty.
Bombay dd 14th January 1994.
It is titled as ” A MANUAL OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTE AND LIFESTYLE”.
In it is states the following:
iv) Dealing with godbrothers:
a) Godbrothers should call on another ” Prabhu “. One should however not try
to become ” Prabhu ” because we are being so addressed. One should simply
remain as servant and accept others as ” Prabhu ”
xi) Dealing with Matajis:
a) A women should be given all respect, particularly if she is a vaisnava
and addressed as such.
Srila Prabhupada says,
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu,
all women, “my mother.” Then it will be possible to live. Therefore the etiquette
is to address every woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.
Morning Walk — November 2, 1975, Nairobi:
Indian man (4): And their theory is that… I asked Vipramukhya Swami that
“Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see
the face of the woman?” He said that, “We should avoid.” But I said, “Well,
okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies.”
He said, “We turn our face to one side.” I said, “First you have seen the woman.
Then you are turning.” (laughter) “You will look further. You have not seen the
women. You have no sense, you know.”
Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat
para-daresu, all women, “my mother.” Then it will be possible to live… Therefore
the etiquette is to address every woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.
Brahmananda: You say like “Mother Rukmini”? There’s a devotee named Rukmini. You say,
“Mother Rukmini”? How do you address a woman? Do you say, “Mother,” and then the name
of the devotee?
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply.
Brahmananda: Just “Mother.”
Prabhupada: Yes. They should be addressed, “Mother.” That will train.
Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don’t call the name of the mother never,
children don’t.
Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply “mother,” that’s all. And if the woman treats man
as son, then it is all right. It is safe.
Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use “ji.” “Mataji”, “Pitaji,”
“Brataji,” “Bahinji.”
Prabhupada: Or… And the woman says, “Beta.” That’s all right.
Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we’re accustomed to not like our mothers.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (5): In the West we don’t like our mothers.
Prabhupada: So you should forget your West or East. (break)
Brahmananda: Similarly, wife should not be called “Mother.”
Prabhupada: No. Therefore it is said, “other’s wife,” not your wife. But Ramakrishnan,
he was saying his wife “mother,” and he became famous by this foolishness.
Indian man (4): Ramakrishnan, there are many like Shyama mother. Her husband, he calls
her “mother.”
Prabhupada: Just see. In the Brahma-samaj they call the wife as “sister,” and the wife
calls the husband “brother,” address like that.
Lecture on SB 1.16.10 on January 7, 1974 in Los Angeles:
“From five years old, if a child is trained to call all woman as “Mother,”
naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned to call all woman as
“Mother.” He has no other idea. A small child, any woman comes before him, he
knows “(S)He is my mother.” So this was the practice.
That is not only religiously, but morally, it is so good, to look upon all
woman as mother. That is the system still in India, any unknown woman who
has no introduction with you, (s)he is addressed “Mataji.” Address her.
She may be just like daughter or granddaughter, but one would address, as a
respect to the woman, as “Mother, Mataji.” This is Indian system.
Now some rascals have introduced “Bhaginiji, sister.” But that is not shastric.
In the sästra, all the woman, except one’s wife, should be addressed as “Mother.”
HARE KRSNA
What’s kind of disturbing is Bhakta Jarek constantly using language like “crazy ritviks, aparadhi ritvik, liars, madmen”, etc., etc.
Is former temple pot-washer Bhakta Jarek a reputed Vaishnava scholar to come up with such name-dropping bumbledom?
Bhakta Jarek, cool down, no reason for heavy language here! All those years in ISKCON you were peacefully cleaning pots for Harikes. Why this giddy with excitement over devotees who believe Prabhupada is fully present in his books? With fully I mean fully. Not some concocted idea, yes, but….
Bhakta Jarek!
First do your homework! Find a living guru whom you consider as “traditionally correct” and then come back.
This forum is a public forum and monitored by all kind of people. Better you first discuss your poorly conceived theories behind a firewall like facebook.
Your point is vage whereas here is Prabhupada. What is the use unless you present your living guru? People simply figure this is a kindergarten of perpetual nagging. Are you paid to to do this kind of work, attacking Prabhupada forums with mental tactics?
What is your motivation, for whom are you working?
bhakta jarek says: Give one quote of His support to the ritvik concoction.
Where does Aindra Prabhu say anything against the Ritviks?
Therefore, he was obviously a closet Ritvik. There are many such Ritviks within ISKCON who must “bite their lip” in order to continue to serve Srila Prabhupada within ISKCON. Unlike Aindra, most of them are not willing to publicly criticize the ISKCON pretender gurus, but they are simply biding their time, waiting to stand tall when the bogus gurus’ day of reckoning finally comes.
Amar Puri says:
4. June 2013 at 3:21 am
AP — SG. you are a LIAR and a CHEATER
SG — From an intelligent man to a liar, a cheater and an insane man.
Thats a big demotion there, Amar Puri.
AP — Here is my one of the email reply to Rocana on this topic which
he refuses to publish it.
” The sentence simply instructs that the name of the Initiated Disciples
to be included in His Initiated Disciples’ Book. You can not send the
name to any where you please as you ridiculously said Roacana Prabhu.
NO. Not at all. This is not the instructions.
SG — Probably Rocana dasa must have thought you to be on a different
platform of understanding so he did not publish it.
AP — GBC in Iskcon who have changed Srila Prabhupada’s books in whole
sale to alter the instructions in order to best suit their respective
agenda.
SG — This part you may have a point.
AP — SG. your above writing indicates strongly that you are yearning for a
PRATHISTHA of some sort.
SG —
, Nope, just trying to get to the truth. PRATHISTHA (Honor, reputation,
credit, fame, celebrity) is of no value. How is it going to help one to get back
to Godhead at the time of death.
The point is Amar Puri, Srila Prabhupada instructed his secretary (TKG) to include
him (Srila Prabhupada) as the recipient of the initiated names to record them
in his disciple’s initiated book. That was his instruction. He did not name his
secretary (TKG) or a senior member of the GBC or a senior member from the sannyasis
or anyone else as the recipient of the initiated names.
If you say as you have been saying all this while that one should follow the
instruction of Srila Prabhupada without any interpretation how is one going to do
this. How are the 11 appointed ritvik representatives going to continue to send
the initiated names to Srila Prabhupada after his departure. Srila Prabhupada is
no longer physically present to receive the initiated names as he was when he was
present.
So, stop saying it. To insist is hypocrisy because the ritviks themselves have
come up with their own interpreted form of initiation.
HARE KRSNA
SG. you chose your life to live in an illusion when you write such answers such as ; ” SG — Probably Rocana dasa must have thought you to be on a different platform of understanding so he did not publish it.”
And further SG says ; ” SG — From an intelligent man to a liar, a cheater and an insane man.
Thats a big demotion there, Amar Puri. ”
Therefore, all of your answers in your writing is based on your own interpretation (concocted assumption i.e. Probably this or that Rocana dasa must have thought you to be on a different
platform of understanding so he did not publish it. or Srila Prabhupada is no longer physically present to receive the initiated names as he was when he was present ) which is indeed totally conditional to best suit your agenda like Rocana and others.
That is why you are a LIAR and a CHEATER who is expert in misrepresentation to protect and promote your agenda. That is why you are very dangerous person because you are an intelligent but your intelligent is covered and protected by your own personal ambition. That is the reason you continue to argue USELESSLY on a mundane platform and you NEVER accept and obey to follow the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
Thus I have said that it is waste of my time even to argue with you BUT finally to make my point across to you and all the READERS here on this forum.
OM TAT SAT.
The ritviks are more dangerous than (F)ISKCON so called guru system. Their logic is so twisted and convulted as if the Kali himself, personally administers this hipocritical scam. (F)ISKCON Guru though trying hard to keep up appearances will eventually fall down, or more precisely prove to be fallen or useless, but the lazy proponent and false prophet of ritvik vada is declared free from such perspective or strugle, isn’t he just a peon of the lofty miracle of the Final (Dis)Order Sect? Such modern days priest may be a liar, a bhogi, it does not matter, what matters is the adamant hold on to the sect’s concocted belief, where practical and in deed ingenious managerial and up to date arrangments of the mighty Acarya in delivering the jivas from hell are whimsically and stupidly declared as the new Deity turning to take the role of the dharma for Kali Yuga. Those who will mentally forcefully imaginary enter into such concocted commitment by unlawfully using the semblance of the great Acarya will never easily free themselves from this offence, whereas a fake disciple of an so called (F)ISKCON guru may be free when his exploiter proves fallen, unless such Kali chela is not unluckily stupid rascal who will go on and on with so called reinitiations from the next allready queued cheaters “in good standing”.
TO BHAKTA JAREK:
Take the EnergyGrid False Guru Test. If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe:
1.
States his or her own enlightenment: The wisest masters tend not to state their own enlightenment or perfection for they know that it is both unhelpful to themselves and to their students. The false teachers often make this claim because they have little else on offer to attract followers.
2.
Is unable to take criticism: False teachers strongly dislike either personal criticism or criticism of their teaching; they do not take kindly to ordinary unenlightened individuals questioning them. They or their organisations will even undertake multi-million dollar law suits to stop ex-members from spilling the beans.
3.
Acts omnipotently with no accountability: Some spiritual communities are run like concentration camps, with guru and his chosen ones acting like Gestapo officers. Unjust or outrageous behaviour by the guru is passed off as what is needed to help the followers grow (how kind). These are the dangerous gurus who have often severely damaged their students. A real master respects your will even if he or she understands that your particular decisions may not be in your interest, and he or she will act accountably to an ethical code of conduct.
4.
Focuses on enlightenment itself rather than teaching the path leading to it: It is amazing how much false gurus have to say about enlightenment. They argue their points in the same way that the scholars in the middle ages argued how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. Any fool can talk about the end goal because what is said is irrefutable to most of your listeners. What is skillful is guiding those listeners to having awakening within themselves. The real teacher focuses on the path and strictly avoids any talk on enlightenment.
5.
Does not practice what is preached: Contrary to spiritual myth, you don’t reach a point of realization whereby you can then start acting mindlessly. If a teacher preaches love and forgiveness, then he should act that way, at least most of the time, showing suitable regret for any lapses). If he teaches meditation, he should meditate. If he insists that his followers live in austere conditions, so should he.
6.
Takes the credit for a particular meditative or healing technique: The fact is that meditation and guided visualisation work. Anyone doing them will experience major changes, benefits and realizations. The false guru will try to own or trademark particular methods and techniques so that she has something unique to attract followers. And she will hijack the effects of meditation as the guru’s blessing rather than each individuals natural potential. Often the students or followers are forbidden from divulging the techniques to maintain a sort of intellectual property right, usually under the guise of needing the technique to be taught correctly.
7.
Specifically gives satsang or darshan when it is not part of his culture: Darshan is when the disciples or students of a master line up and to pass their master, who is usually seated, with either a bow or traditionally kissing their feet (yes it does happen). In the East, this is part of their culture and a normal thing to do to show respect and reverence (even children will kiss the feet of their fathers). However, here in the West, such copycat behaviour is a strong indication that the guru is acting a role. Satsang, on the other hand, means literally “the company of the Truth”. In a deeper sense it is an affirmation of the Guru-Disciple relationship in Eastern traditions. But some Western gurus will use this terminology because they are playing a role.
8.
Lives in total opulence: There is nothing wrong with living in luxury or being wealthy. But when that luxury turns to unnecessary opulence using funds that were not explicity donated for that purpose then you are probably dealing with a false guru. Money is collected from followers usually in the form of donations, and those donations are given as an act of love, appreciation and to help spread the influence of the master. However, a genuine master is more likely to use such wealth to lessen the suffering in this world, not to buy another yacht, private jet or Rolls Royce.
9.
Encourages or permits adoration from his followers: Avoid any group that focuses on the “master” themselves rather than the teachings or spiritual practices. This will be a hindrance to your self-realisation for your focus will be drawn outside of yourself, and usually indicates that there is not a lot more on offer than guru worship.
10.
Presents himself or herself overly fashionably and glamorously: Beware of masters who present glamour photographs of themselves and dress overly fashionably (whilst proclaiming that they have no ego and leading ego-death retreats). Yes it does happen!
11.
Demands love and devotion from their students: Keep clear of any master who demands love and devotion. One very well known Western guru stated, “Anyone who loves me is guaranteed enlightenment”! Real love and devotion is earned over time when we begin to really know the whole person and not their public image.
12.
Speaks with an Indian accent or vernacular when he is in fact a Westerner: Not sure how much this happens now but there are some high profile Western gurus who have (or had) Indian accents, mannerisms and vernacular. This indicates that they are playing in their ego.
13.
Runs expensive miracle workshops and courses: You are unlikely to reach enlightenment after a few weekend workshops with cheesy titles. In our society of “must have now”, we want to be able to purchase spiritual development with minimal fuss. Also, avoid meaningless accreditation — it is often used merely to encourage followers to do more courses.
14.
Takes sexual advantage of his or her followers: This happens much more than many believe. It is not being prudish to include this one because when a follower falls under the spell of a guru he or she is likely to do anything for the Chosen One. It is only afterwards that it may dawn on the follower that his or her openness has been used and abused. This can be very psychologically scaring.
15.
Flatters you and treats you as very special: Sure we are all special in some ways, but this is one of the things that a false guru may do to hook a potential follower or to get a current follower to do a particular task. Nothing can be more intoxicating to the ego than to be selected by the master or leader (or any high profile person). A real master will stand back and allow you to make your decision whether to accept his or her teachings without trying to influence the process.
16.
Talks bollocks: It is surprising what a person will listen to when he or she is devoted to the speaker. It is always a good idea to get hold of a written transcript of what has been said and really read the message. Then tell an open-minded friend who is not a follower what their opinion is purely on the strength of the words. You will soon find out whether there is any real substance to the teacher’s message, or whether you are merely being drawn in by the charisma of the messenger.
17.
Overly relies on slick presentation: Slick presentation can often mask poor content, and so it is important for you to look past the lovely music and video shows at the actual message. The slicker the presentation, the harder it is to see what eactly the teaching is.
18.
Gives him or herself outrageous titles: Not satisfied by being “merely” an enlightened being, many false gurus give themselves titles (or allow their followers to do so) to indicate that they are literally God-Incarnate, the reincarnation of the Buddha or Christ, or THE chosen one. Some continually change their names, to keep pace with their burgeoning egos.
19.
Runs abundance workshops: A guru or master is there to help us find an authentic life. This is nothing to do with becoming more successful at work or making more money, although this may or may not follow from being more authentic. There is nothing wrong with abundance weekends, but if we mistake spirituality for increased business success, then we are guilty of spiritual materialism and we find ourselves deeper in the illusion. (The Japanese say that the Gods laugh at those who pray for money.)
20.
Is not interested in you personally: If a teacher or guru does not have time to interact with you personally, then you may as well read his teaching from a book, because merely being in his presence doesn’t help you find realization inside you. You may model some of his spiritual characteristics, but that often only places you deeper in illusion.
21.
Allows his followers to set up a hierarchy of access: A guru must be accessible. If he is not, or if he allows his followers to block your access, then he is playing the role of a king and not a spiritual guide. A guru is only useful to the process of awakening if you can directly interact with him.
22.
Makes false claims of lineage: Many mistakenly believe that realisation can only happen under the guidance of a realized master. In this belief system, gurus are only authentic when they come from a line or lineage of realized gurus. Desperate not to be left out, some gurus claim a false lineage of enlightened masters to bolster their authority to teach. Another pseudo form of “lineage” is to recount a miracle that once happened to them (maybe they cured themselves of some disease or God spoke to them personally) which infers that they are “chosen” and therefore have the authority to set themselves up as teachers and gurus.
23.
Presents themselves as non-profit whilst raking in the millions: Often, the false prophet will present her teachings for free, whilst strongly encouraging her devotees to make large donations. In this way she can appear above money considerations, whilst maintaining her greed and opulence.
24.
Collects a large band of angry ex-followers: This is an indication that something is seriously wrong. If she has used kindness and love in her interactions with her students, and has discouraged them from projecting denied spiritual characteristics onto the guru (rather than encouraging their integration into the self), then it is extremely unlikely that there would be more than a few disheartened ex’s. Many might drift away and feel they have wasted their time, but they are only likely to have the great anger if they have put their teacher on a pedestal, given him their power, and later realized that he was never worthy of such adoration. Contrary to what some believe, it is actually the teacher’s responsibility to strongly discourage students from putting them on pedestals, for this is counterproductive to finding realisation inside.
25.
Uses pseudo-technology: Many false profits and organisations base themselves around pseudo-technology in the effort to appear scientific — special meters, communication devices (do you really expect the aliens to use a mobile?) and energy clearing instruments and pendants that involve crystals and copper wire. Once again, this is to distract the unwary from the poor quality of the actual teaching.
26.
Acts like a complete paranoid mad person: If your Precious One acts like a complete paranoid schizophrenic or psychotic then he or she probably is. Run! Remember that there is no such thing as “crazy wisdom”—wisdom is the art of being balanced. However charismatic they may be, and sane between moments of madness, you WILL be damaged by them.
CHECK or ASK the References…
Look at the History of the organization…
Operating secretively in the disguise…
Please check this link for reference (arcticle in spanish)
http://www.elcaribe.com.do/articulo_caribe.aspx?id=20712&guid=58472E8D037746C699252CC902D58533&Seccion=3
Click here for ENGLISH Translation of the Article below – – http://www.powermantra.com/docs/Translation_article.doc
For more information about former PowerMantra send an email to info@powermantra.com
For more information on Cult – refer to
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/triples/infocult/ic-e1.html (source http://www.infocult.org/ )
SG wrote:
“The point is Amar Puri, Srila Prabhupada instructed his secretary (TKG) to include him (Srila Prabhupada) as the recipient of the initiated names to record them in his disciple’s initiated book. That was his instruction. He did not name his secretary (TKG) or a senior member of the GBC or a senior member from the sannyasis or anyone else as the recipient of the initiated names.”
This is the 3rd time SG has repeated this myopic argument. The first 2 times, I defeated it easily, and he did not respond to either challenge. Yet here he is repeating it again. Like a robot.
So I will be just as robotic, and repeat my first and second answers, which are still a perfect defeat of his weak argument.
—————————————————————————————————————
by Mark. June 4, 3:51 am.
I already defeated this on May 30th, and you ignored it. Silence means consent and defeat.
I will refresh your memory.
“The process of sending names to be put into Srila Prabhupada’s disciple book was already a practice by which his secretary held the book and entered the names.
So in the July 9th letter, “sending the names to Srila Prabhupada” was just a confirmation of what was already the practice. It didn’t mean that suddenly Srila Prabhupada himself was going to take his secretaries service away from him and personally receive every list of names and enter them into his disciple book.
Such a simple thing.
And after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, the GBC takes over for everything. So with a simple “RESOLUTION” which Srila Prabhupada authorized them to make on any necessary issue, the GBC could say,
RESOLVED: “from this day forwared, the GBC secretary will be the keeper of Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples book, and will be the one to receive the names of new disciples and enter them into the book.
RESOLVED: “the GBC secretary is empowered to choose a secretary for each region to collect names of new initiated disciples from the temple secretary in his region, and record them in temporary books, which will be sent to the GBC secretary annually to be recorded in the permanent disciple book kept in the vault at Mayapura.
Such a simple simple simple thing.
Thanks SG, yes that is another good point, the names of the initiated devotees were supposed to continue on being included in — the book of his disciples — after he departed. Srila Prabhupada never ordered any changes in that process at all. I know, I asked the GBC for proof of any change, and never got any! You got it!
Srila Prabhupada also said all these leaders are unfit for sannyasa, what to speak of gurus. So he said on May 28th, they should simply act as ritviks (since they are not fit for sannyasa) and he also said this about ten thousand times — “do not change anything.” That is right!
That is what Bhakti Caru is now saying, the disciples are really Srila Prabhupada’s. Badri Narayana also wrote the same thing in a paper he wrote for the GBC in 1988, when the GBC guru bloops, the disciples stay because, they belong to Srila Prabhupada. So they already have a de facto ritvik system.
Bhakta Jarek is simply sour grapes, he was cheated first by the very bogus Harikesh, who told me to not get near the sides of the roof in the Brooklyn temple, just in case the ghosts made me jump off. I thought, this man is a fool right then and there, and I was right, he is afraid of ghosts? And then Harikesh was getting ghost busted in 1990, so — someone who is haunted by ghosts since 1970, is in the lowest modes of darkness, and if you do not believe me, just watch the Channel 44 mid-nite fright fest movies.
Then Jarek prabhu was cheated by the maha-bhogha-what guru of the desert tumbleweeds, Kailash, who has not enough potency to initiate even one tumbleweed. Jarek is simply shopping for a cheating guru, and he got caught, so now he is angry that we exposed him, thats all. ys pd
All these so-called arguments with characters like Jarek & SG? are just so much useless waste of time and energy. Their frog croaking reminds us of the days of BTG/Book distribution in the early seventies when the ‘Christians’ would try to engage us in debate on the street with absolutely no intention of hearing a word spoken. Yes at first we may have fallen for that trap of thinking ‘here is a likely person to preach to’, of course until their departing line “Jesus loves you” or “have you taken the blood of Christ” was uttered as they left.
No real difference here, just once again agents of maya out to waste your precious time in useless debate/argument. Leave that addiction to them and get on with the ‘positive alternative’ that Srila Prabhupada gave us.
Yhs.
Bhakta Jarek: “I dont understand what this means by post-samadhi ritvik diksha?????”
Right, there is no such thing as time factor on the spiritual platform. Prabhupada is fully present here and now, no need to change anything as it happens when in the material world a conditioned soul is thrown in the coffin and shoveled into the grave.
And, after one year there are only some bones left. Unfortunately only few people are realized souls who can see that Prabhupada is fully present in his books and things should go on as he instructed. Finding a remedy to enlighten present grave digger society of all those “Bhakta Jareks” is million dollar question. As we know, conditioned souls always point to gravestone and grave digger..
Fernando Rodriguez says:
6. June 2013 at 9:07 am
Bhakta Jarek: “I dont understand what this means by post-samadhi ritvik diksha?????”
Yes, you don’t. The context of appearance and disappearance of Lord Krishna or His eternal associates is a constantly present topic of Vaishnava philosphy. Lord Sri Krishna does appear and disappear and this is stated by Him in BG. 4.9. In accordance to it Srila Prabhupada says so: “His activities are transcendental, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. Janma karma ca me divyam: [Bg. 4.9] the activities and the appearance and disappearance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are transcendental; they are not to be considered material. Anyone who knows this fact—that the appearance, disappearance and activities of the Lord are beyond material activities or material conception—is liberated. Yo vetti tattvataḥ/ tyaktva deham punar janma: [Bg. 4.9] such a person, after quitting his body, does not come back again to this material world, but goes to the Supreme Person. It is confirmed here, puruṣaḥ puruṣam vrajet: the living entity goes to the Supreme Personality simply by understanding His transcendental nature and activities.”
Now, are we on that level to really see directly the Lord, or His pure devotee in their eternal, constant and uniterrupted existence, or are we prematurely and artificially thinking that we are, and so in fact we reject the path of gradual purificatory process of awakening the dormant love and abilities which for now are covered up, though already present in us? The FISKCOn scammers and the ritvik scammers are spiritually lazy, faithless upstarts who try to build a cheap version of love of God. In each of those envious cults the fetish of an institutional obligatory diksha scam is prompted by bunch of nitya baddha fools. In both cases mentally enforced diksha concoction/s for the mass religious hysterical and spiritually lazy individuals took the role of Godhead. Such imaginary religions are nothing more but another tricks of the expert hypocrite and liar Kali and their/his followers are going thus straight into darkest regions of the universe.
Dear Jarek, The GBC invented these terms like “post samadhi” and “post mortem” acharyas, and Jarek has become their current henchman. He has never left the GBC guru’s camp, hence he is their puppet / parrot. No one else uses their terms, except their clones like Jarek.
And of course Jarek’s shiksha authorities like Rocana and Kailash use these terms as well, such as post samadhi diksha, posthumous diksha, postmortem acharyas and so on. No one else uses their terms? Except their clones like Jarek. That means any hamburger eating person walking down the street is more advanced than Bhakta Jarek, because the average persons knows its an offense to say that Jesus is postmortem.
The average USA person on the sidewalk know that Jesus lives eternally, Jesus is not posthumous, and postmortem? And its a severe offense to use these terms for the acharya. Only fools like Jarek would dare say Jesus is the postmortem dead guy. This is atheist idea.
Here is another real problem for Jarek’s idea, his authorities like Harikesha (who said the acharyas are dead and gone) are the actual dead and gone postmortem acharyas. No one cares for whatever Harikesha says these days, he is the official postmortem pada. He is dead while apparently living, for his blaspheming the acharyas as postmortem and dead and gone. And Jarek is angry that we are not surrendering to these fools who started this whole postmortem acharya process, so they could make their illicit sex messiahs instead.
Kailash is another posthumous acharya, because he is basically preaching, God is dead and so are His gurus. When I drive around San Francisco I always see bumper stickers that say “Jesus Lives.” Yes, that means these people are vastly superior to postmortem pada bhakta Jarek.
Good luck making a religion based on surrendering to the ideas of the posthumous and post mortem Harikesha and Kailash, this is simply never going to gain traction, its “dead in the water.” Hee hee. Yes, your postmortem religion is already dead, and that is why Harikesha is blaspheming Krishna all the time saying the whole religion is bogus (because he wanted to be the ultimate living authority and he was caught being a fraud), and Kailash is blaspheming the acharyas calling them posthumous, so, Jarek is with them. All glories to the posthumous and postmortem padas, and their one bell ringer left standing, Jarek prabhu. ys pd
I am not using the term post samadhi out of love or appreciation, but that is quite a must when the material prakrita bhaktas or some demons artificially step over the anartha nivritti stage simulating advanced stages of devotional maturing or gradual advancement.
In fact the ritvik vadis or neo karthabaja sahajiyas are pretending to be en masse able to disregard the laws of material nature and be above the je anilo prema dhana karuna pracur level, they don’t cry after the devotee is gone, why? Since the rascals say he is not gone! The ritvik sahajiya says; no Prabhupada is here exactly the same way He was here before, and I go to be His diksha disciple!
Just look what rascals are they! Ok, I am unfortunately also not crying for Prabhupada yet, I am a rascal too, but the difference is I am promised to be able one day to cry for Him, and I accept the way to achieve the desired and rare goal by simply following the acaryas, mahajano yena gatha sa pantha.
No simulation, no pretending to see aprakash devotee as prakash, or in manifested stage, since this is impossible for conditioned soul and prakrita bhakta, it is dishonest and stupid at the end!
Although Bhakta Jarek seems fully convinced that Prabhupada is gone, he also knows that there are some who won’t agree with his level of realization.
Still, out of compassion Bhakta Jarek figures he must save those who are going in the wrong direction? Thats the reason why he works tirelessly to highlight that Prabhupada is no more?
There has to be a living successor to fill this gap for people who are afflicted with the understanding that a guru has to be alive. So Bhakta Jarek thinks that at one point people will hear and realize: wait, Bh. Jarek is right. Prabhupada left for good and will never return. Somehow Bh. Jarek reflects the vision of all of present ISKCONites. A man is dead when his body was buried so to speak. Ok, there is this kind of etiquette to honor those who left this world. Therefore they say, Prabhupada was a great acarya – but still, this won’t hide the fact that Prabhupada has left.
Might be that Bh Jarek isnt posting here to enlighten others but rather, egotistically, does it because it just feels good to get all that stuff off his chest?
I mean, nobody knows if he is still following any regs, chanting 16 rounds, rising early, etc? On the other hand he might look for answers? Are there points he forgot to consider? He keeps on saying that ritviks are worse than ISKCON with its 43 fallen gurus. Why does he think like that?
What damage is there when people worship Prabhupada? What kind of damage happened in Bangalore where they consider Prabhupada as diksha guru? Can Prabhupada fall down? In sum, Bhakta Jarek should be realistic. Time is running out! A few more fallen gurus and ISKCON won’t be accepted anymore in the West. Ys Bhaktin Alicja
Jarek: I am not using the term post samadhi out of love or appreciation, but that is quite a must when the material prakrita bhaktas or some demons artificially step over the anartha nivritti stage simulating advanced stages of devotional maturing or gradual advancement.
[PD: Dear Jarek, You are not using anything you figured out for yourself. We have ALL heard these odious terms you are using A LONG TIME AGO, way before you came down the road, from the GBC gurus. You are simply repeating your masters, the GBC gurus. They concocted these terms: post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem, and no one EVER used these terms until the GBC gurus did, and this proves — you are their parrot. You did not invent these terms, they did, and you are their follower.
Sorry, we do not follow the GBC gurus and repeat their slogans and terms. You are not stepping over the anartha stage, to say the acharyas are postmortem is an offense, you have to rise above these offenses. You are not doing that. No bona fide Vaishnavas, or Vaishnava acharyas, or Krishna, has ever stated that the acharyas are post samadhi, posthumous, and postmortem etc. Your pals concocted these terms and slogans, and you are repeating them. Show us any statement in shastra where the acharyas are described in these terms, you cannot, you are another material concocting parrot of the GBC gurus.
Bhaktin Alicja has also figured your whole bogus program out as well, you are with them, plain and simple. At the same time, your gurus Harikesha and Kailash really are de facto posthumous since, no one cares for anything they have to say. Ever. ys pd]
(1)
je ānilo prema-dhana koruṇā pracur
heno prabhu kothā gelā ācārya-ṭhākur
(2)
kāhā mora swarūp rūpa kāhā sanātan
kāhā dāsa raghunātha patita-pāvan
(3)
kāhā mora bhaṭṭa-juga kāhā kavirāj
eka-kāle kothā gelā gorā naṭa-rāj
(4)
pāṣāṇe kuṭibo māthā anale paśibo
gaurāńga guṇera nidhi kothā gele pābo
(5)
se-saba sańgīra sańge je koilo bilās
se-sańga nā pāiyā kānde narottama dās
TRANSLATION
1) He who brought the treasure of divine love and who was filled with compassion and mercy–where has such a personality as Advaita Acarya gone?
2) Where are my Svardpa Damodara and Rupa Gosvami? Where is Sanatana? Where is Raghunatha Dasa, the savior of the fallen?
3) Where are my Raghunatha Bhatta and Gopala Bhatta, and where is Krsnadasa Kaviraja? Where did Lord Gauranga, the great dancer, suddenly go?
4) I will smash my head against the rock and enter into the fire. Where will I find Lord Gauranga, the reservoir of all wonderful qualities?
5) Being unable to obtain the association of Lord Gauranga accompanied by all of these devotees in whose association He performed His pastimes, Narottama Dasa simply weeps.
The very word “gone” is used here twice to describe the pastimes of the pure devotees. The author is the Acarya Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura! Is the author wrong, does He say that they are not present anymore? Certainly not, however there is some difference in the pastimes and He kindly describes them, not that He says:”O, nothing happened! Everything is just fine, no matter whether we cant see or touch them, no matter whether we can sit down and eat prasad with them, or give them massage or render some nice service to their fatigue body. We don’t care for such limited vision, thy are not gone, this is just joke, since Maya is an illusion, death is illusion, and only fools can’t see it!” No, this is not what the song and it’s author says!
Bhakta Jarek: “The very word “gone” is used here twice to describe the pastimes of the pure devotees.”
Thanks for bringing in the highest siddhanta of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism. Feeling of separation. Worship of Guru and Krishna by feeling of separation – vipralambha-seva – is better than the worship by directly meeting.
Spiritual separation is described as being different from material separation. Same type of idea as the contradiction that Narayana is poverty-stricken (daridra-narayana). In spiritual separation there is neither inebriety nor ineffectiveness, as one finds with material separation.
To confuse the two is technically called rasabhasa – overlapping of one humor (vipralambha seva) with mundane separation (bhinna). Worship in separation is considered by the Gaudiya-Madhva-sampradaya to be the topmost level of devotional service.
Prabhupada: “So far personal association with the Guru is concerned, I was only with my Guru Maharaja four or five times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instructions, I have never felt any separation.”
Letter to Satadhanya
Calcutta
20 February, 1972
Those who are pure Vaishnavas should avoid these things opposed to devotional service. Lord Caitanya taught that the mood of separation is the means of achieving the goal of life. Actually, the Lord appeared in this world from the spiritual world, Goloka, simply to preach the glories of the radiant exalted mood of separation from the Lord in this world.
Not understanding these mysteries, the prakrita-sahajiya class accept the Sakteya philosophy of sambhoga – by hook or crook installing bogus gurus just for the sake of having a living guru. Fallen gurus is averse to devotional service and ruins everything, and thus establish and advertise themselves as another community of material enjoyers (Hindu Mandir of happy Hindus).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-21938027
Asok Kumar said:”Thanks for bringing in the highest siddhanta of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism. Feeling of separation. Worship of Guru and Krishna by feeling of separation — vipralambha-seva — is better than the worship by directly meeting.”
You welcome Asok Kumar prabhu, you churned it to cream and butter. As Srila Prabhupada used to say, “this is wanted !”.
Right, Bhakta Jarek is on the post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem bogus GBC’s guru train. Sorry, we ALL know ALREADY where ALL these bogus slogans and terms are ALL coming from. I asked for specific references to these terms, i.e. the GBC’s / Rocana’s / Kailasha’s reference to Krishna’ successors and acharyas as — post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem and so on, in reference to Krishna’s acharyas.
NOTICE! Bhakta Jarek has not provided one quote where such terms are used (that he and his GBC mentors use) and — are found in shastra.
For a Vaishnava to to worship his guru in separation, is the same identical process as worship of Krishna in separation. That is our entire process.
Now Bhakta Jarek is essentially saying the process of worship of Krishna in separation is worship of — the post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem? OK, how did Krishna become postmortem?
When Radharani worships Krishna in separation, she is foolishly worshiping the posthumous postmortem person? Jarek is an atheist, that is what I said at the start of all this in 1978. To say the guru is post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem etc. is, atheism. And it is. Sorry, worship in separation is our entire process, to say that worship in separation is the worship of the postmortem dead body, is what atheists have said about Krishna’s worship since 5,000 years ago.
Krishna is dead because He is “gone,” ok atheist idea. Told ya! What about all the quotes where the guru is eternally living in sound, in his vani, living in his devotees etc. — yep, cherry picking the quotes, ooops, another GBC / Rocana / Kailash technique. Sorry, we are on to you guys! ys pd
Puranjana das says:
7. June 2013 at 2:43 pm
PD — For a Vaishnava to to worship his guru in separation, is the same identical process as worship of Krishna in separation. That is our entire process.
SG — That maybe so but it is not the entire process of the ritviks. The bogus post samadhi ritvik initiation is part of it. And one of the qualities of the ritviks followers is pretence.
HARE KRSNA
Worship of guru is “not the entire process of the ritviks”? OK, what is it then? SG uses the same terms as the GBC’s gurus — “position papers” — since 1978, ok the parampara from God is — post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem. He is with them. They are not only full of pretense, they are the originators of the entire idea that Krishna and His eternal parampara are dead and postmortem. The parampara of Krishna and His gurus is — postmortem? Or is it that SG and his guru program is postmortem, which is why their temples are empty and — dead? Worship of Krishna and His parampara is bogus, dead, postmortem, no wonder your temples are empty. Told ya! Well fine, keep preaching that God and His gurus are postmortem, you are sending people away from your program every day with that idea, and we are taking them in, thanks! ys pd
Puranjana you are in separation from all the Acaryas of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya line of teachings. This kind of separation is an offence, but it is much cheaper, that’s fact.
“…you are in separation from all the Acaryas of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya”
Bhakta Jarek is now waffling what he obviously studied from Rocana’s bag of tricks. Always coming up with, ifs and buts. Someone plz put a sock in his mouth!
Bhakta Jarek is defeated when being asked to present his living guru. He is defeated when having to answer why Prabhupada is unable to initiate whereas Lord Jesus can. Agreed, folks like Bhakta Jarek – same like GBC – are meanwhile depressed heathens who figure Lord Jesus Christ is humbug fiction.
Like his putative father Rocana, Bhakta Jarek arrogates to always have the final say. Hopefully the editors of this forum see through his policy of simply throwing a smokescreen over the issue. Might be that “Bhakta Jarek” is an alias for a couple of different angry anti-ritviks?
Meanwhile Rocana writes like a rabid crusader, “The DOM, ISKCON Inc. and Ritvikism, Part 21”. Notice, part 21, indicator that Rocana is at a loss to explain who is his bona fide fully authorized living guru?
Bhakta Jarek adobted same strategy to just not stop to talk nineteen to the dozen. He talks his head off like an endless tape, blabbermouth, but where is his guru?
Bhakta Jarek, to simply run off at the mouth is nowhere stated in Bhagavad-gita. Readers want to know from you where is your genuine living guru hiding? So far it’s all hollow words. Plz lift the curtain so we can know who is your living spiritual master? Or do we have to wait till he is born? Future bluff package?
Of course none of these pre-samadhi neophytes like SG or Jarek have been able to explain how Srila Prabhupada transcribes the Gaudiya disciplic succession where Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti received Diksa initiation from Narottama das Thakura, who was “gone” before Visvanatha was even born.
“Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, who accepted Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī as his servitor”
(Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters)
I can’t remember how many times during these debates that I have printed this information and asked for a reply and explanation, but I can count how many times these pre-samadhi neophytes have given an answer. Zero.
Watch, true to form, they will ignore this very comment, figuring that in a few days it will scroll up on the screen and everyone will forget it even happened.
“The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.”
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta – 1975 Edition : Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters : Adi 1.35 : Purport
Agreed! Yes, like I said before…it’s all just the ‘croaking’ of frogs that we hear from the cripple-minded folk waiting for the snake of Maya to devour them. Don’t get sucked in and waste precious time in feeding their addiction, as arguments are all they’re interested in.
Yhs.Bd.
On the may 28 1977 Srila Prabhupada said in between: “India, I am here. We shall see. In India, Jayapataka.”
Does it mean for You neo karthabaja sahajiyas that He is especially there in the boundaries of India for now perhaps, as Jayapataka is still there? It would have to be so, since this is exactly what He said in regard to the circumstantial scheme for the ritvik performed execution of the official diksha ceremonies up to His departure pastime. The devotees on the other side never say anything like Rukimini Ramana devi dasi accused them of, that Srila Prabhupada can’t initiate now, no, they never say this, even I do not say, or think like this! What they say is, that He never intended nor promised to do so in the way you sahajiyas falsely accuse Him to promised or willed to do. However He may and certainly does continue to guide His devotees and none can’t stop Him from this, since He is the Guru, exactly in the same way nobody could do stop Him while He was present here in His manifested lila pastimes.
Dear Jarek: Srila Prabhupada said he would live forever in his books, and we are getting new people every day to read his books — in places like Bangalore, Russia, Singapore, New Zealand, Toronto, Vancouver, and our nice temple here in Sunnyvale.
And these new people are becoming devotees of Krishna. We have a whole pack of little babies and toddlers here in Sunnyvale, they will be worshiping Krishna long after you are gone, why do you want them to be stopped? I just do not get it, you want these children to have no connection to Krishna? What for? Why are you against making devotees of Krishna?
And you want us to instead live in the desert in Moab with Kailash and count the tumbleweeds blowing by all day long? Sorry, we have better things to do that to live in the desert counting the scorpions and tarantulas marching by, we are preaching and making devotees of God, not wasting our lives waiting for California to fall into the ocean.
You people are not making any devotees, at all, that means you are wasting your human existence doing nothing for no one. Human life is meant for serving God and the devotees of God, not to be waiting in the desert for the end of the world for 35 years, that is utter foolishness, and a total waste of human existence. We are making devotees of God, and you object, well Kamsa also objected to people being devotees of God. Why are you always cheer leading that idea? ys pd
Balaram das says:
6 June 2013 at 5:17 am
” All these so-called arguments with characters like Jarek & SG? are just
so much useless waste of time and energy. Their frog croaking reminds us
of the days of BTG/Book distribution in the early seventies ”
” just once again agents of maya out to waste your precious time in useless
debate/argument. Leave that addiction to them ”
Balaram das says:
8 June 2013 at 1:37 am
“Agreed! Yes, like I said before…it’s all just the ‘croaking’ of frogs that
we hear from the cripple-minded folk waiting for the snake of Maya to devour them.
Don’t get sucked in and waste precious time in feeding their addiction, as arguments
are all they’re interested in.”
SG — Some so call devotees will never change from what they were in the past. Their
nature, character and attitude for who they are, will always remain no matter how much
they try to apologize.
HARE KRSNA
SG – your guru Rocana is so DESPERATE he TWISTS the FACTS regards the Ritvik Order July 9th 1977. The system to enter the names of initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada in book was ALREADY in place and done by the Srila Prabhupada’s secretary so please read properly—- if you can:
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know that book I’m maintaining of all of your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikeśa Mahārāja, he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is the full context :
Room Conversation
—
July 7, 1977, Vṛndāvana
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men, they can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know that book I’m maintaining of all of your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikeśa Mahārāja, he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay. Is there someone else in India that you want to do this?
There is nothing to apologize for? We asked all you folks to produce the name of the living guru, and you folks do not do so. So, most people figured this out already, you folks are a cheating and bluffing program. And neither will Rocana, Kailash, Jarek identify their living guru, its all lies and bluff. They are all claiming that we need to have a living guru, but they do not have any themselves. They are hypocrites.
They want us to follow what they are not even following themselves. Hypocrisy, a symptom of Kali Yuga. Of course, when people do identify their living gurus, they we might have another problem with that? That is perhaps why you folks do not identify the living guru, you are ashamed that we will already know the living guru you have, is a rascal. This is what happened here (see below), a woman came out to challenge me, and she is a disciple of Lokanatha swami.
She at least identified him as her guru, however then she was exposed. So that is why all of you are not identifying your live guru, you are afraid to. At least this woman had the courage to say — who — her guru is, you big brave men are less brave than she is. You are hiding behind her skirt. Anyway, here is my analysis of her living guru’s program:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/06/message-to-svayam-rasesvari-shutler.html
Yep, we cannot blame you folks for not identifying the living guru, then we really will see how foolish you folks are, which is what happened in the example here. Hee hee! So go on promoting the worship of nobody pada, thats a good job for you! All glories to nobody pada, the greatest preacher of nothing, ok maybe he is preaching to the tumbleweeds in Moab, who has no temples, no devotees, no kirtana, no books, no nothing, we worship thin air pada, how come you are no joining us? I worship nothing pada, that is called sunnyavada (atheism), worship of zero. And its clearly not catching on, and you folks, — cannot figure out why? ys pd
People like Puranjana are kind off. The stubbornly asked by him question for the “living” guru shows the notoriously offensive and spiritualy stagnant nature of such hat is the meaning of asking such stupid question? Many times we quoted here in Srila Prabhupada on the Guru issue, for example;
“Spiritual master is not that a particular man is spiritual master. Spiritual master is a truth. So what is that truth? The truth is samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam **. The whole world is in the blaze of material pangs, threefold miseries. And a person who is authorized to deliver people from that material pangs, he is called spiritual master.”
Sri Vyasa-puja — Hamburg, September 5, 1969
“As God is one, similarly, guru is also one. There cannot be different gurus. Because God is one, how there can be different gurus? The principle of guru is one. The original guru is Krsna.”
Arrival Lecture — San Francisco, July 15, 1975
“guru cannot be two. Mind that. The person may be different, but the message is the same. Therefore guru is one.
The Vedic instruction is, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, “one must.” Eva means “must.” Abhigacchet, this verb is used when there is the sense of “must.” It never says “Go to a guru,” but he says “Must approach the guru.” Guru is one. Guru cannot be two. Gurum evabhigacchet. And we see also, practically, in the disciplic succession of guru, the same thing is spoken by the guru. Same thing. Repetition of the same subject matter, no other.”
Lecture: What is a Guru? — London, August 22, 1973
“The spiritual master can be present wherever the disciples wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”
– Srila Prabhupada letter — May 28, 1968
Now, ask here in the Puranjana question for the so called living Guru. He is the main propaganda men for the stupid idea, his diseased notorious repeating the empty and in fact offensive idea pertaining to the most delicate subject is showing how angry this guy is. How a Guru may be dead?! How much more but one has to get kicked on the face to understand that still there is something like two phases of presence of such rare person what in no sense limits the Guru, but is rather a follow up of the laws of nature which certainly still do however control us, the recipients of Gurus mercy! And the death itself is one of them. How stupid and disrepectfully it sounds, how much it does not make any sense at all! What for constantly bark the “living” guru offensive phrase? The motives can’t be of any good nature here, such questions show a nastiness of thePoorjanis party men. The perspective people like Puranjana and his blind angry followers have is from the beginning wrong, it is material perspective, where there is no clear awareness, or a sober assumption that we may be something else than our nasty subtle body consistent of the mind, material intelligence and ahankara. We are certainly bewildered by the actions of the three gunas, there is no doubt about it, and such foolish empty and angrily motivated question will spoil everything bringing nothing but sorrow, a life of anger bereft of compassion, life without constant chanting and without performance of the sankirtan Kali Yuga dharma. Asking questions and giving solution to the performance of the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra this is what we may expect from a great souls and our seniors, not stupid and materially motivated questions and rumor mongering.
y.s.bj
Those who say you need a physical diksa guru just to give FORMALITY initiation are CRAZY:
That is not very important thing.
Conversations : 1976 Conversations : October, 1976 : Press Interview — October 16, 1976, Chandigarh : 761016iv.cha :
Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
Note: the words OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE:
In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year.
As per July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order Ritvik is THIS Representative of the Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada – it does NOT require Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence just for conducting FORMALITY.
Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta – 1975 Edition : Cc. Madhya-lila : Madhya 24: The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse : Madhya 24.330 : PURPORT : samo damas tapah saucam ksantir arjavam eva ca jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam :
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaiṣṇava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brāhmaṇa.
Note: it does NOT require Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to serve him:
Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta – 1975 Edition : Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters : Adi 1.35 : PURPORT :
The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
Note: the ISKCON conditioned soul BOGUS GBC voted demons want to be worshiped as good as God with Vyasa Puja etc :
Bhagavad-gita As It Is (1972) > Bg 16 > Bg 16.4
TEXT 4
dambho darpo ‘bhimānaś ca
krodhaḥ pāruṣyam eva ca
ajñānaṁ cābhijātasya
pārtha sampadam āsurīm
SYNONYMS
dambhaḥ—pride; darpaḥ—arrogance; abhimānaḥ—conceit; ca—and; krodaḥ—anger; pāruṣyam—harshness; eva—certainly; ca—and; ajñānam—ignorance; ca—and; abhijātasya—one who is born; pārtha—O son of Pṛthā; sampadam—nature; āsurīm—demoniac.
TRANSLATION
Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance-these qualities belong to those of demonic nature, O son of Pṛthā.
PURPORT
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities.
Note: ALL these misleaders who are denying Srila Prabhupada his unique DIKSA Guru position in ISKCON defying RItvik July 9th 1977 Order, defying His Direction of Management (1970) are going to hell:
Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 6: “Prescribed Duties for Mankind” : SB 6.7: Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati. : SB 6.7.14 : TRANSLATION :
Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them.
Bhakta Jarek finally comes out to call a spade a spade: Prabhupada knew that those legendary eleven would create havoc when sitting on the vyasasana posing as God’s direct representatives. But still, Prabhupada would insist to have these eleven installed.
According Bhakta Jarek, Prabhupada appointed Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Harikes, Hansadutta, Kirtanananda, Tamal Krishna, Bhavananda, etc., as full-fledged diksa-guru successors, acaryas, because, according Bhakta Jarek’s logic, otherwise things look like – the “demonic church”.
Prabhupada explained millions of things but according Bhakta Jarek, Prabhupada never would pronounce four words: “I remain ISKCON’s diksa-guru”.
As we see, Bhakta Jarek class fights for this doctrine more strongly than anything else: Prabhupada appointed false gurus. You’ll find these folks never mentioning anything about fighting kali-yuga, uplifting suffering humanity, distributing spiritual knowledge. Nothing, zero.
Bhakta Jarek’s only concern is 7/24 to parrot that Prabhupada appointed false gurus and this process of installing questionable gurus (Jarek is getting very angry to reveal names) has to be repeated till Western Vaishnavism is — dead?
Exact same program is run by present Vaishnava institutions. Nothing of this sort to address onslaught of the age of Kali. Wall of silence at ISKCON News. It is all about japa retreat at secluded places and control freaks protecting their buildings.
In sum, how is this Vaishnava? Vaishnava is always feeling for others’ distress. That is Vaishnava. Teaching day and night that Prabhupada appointed false gurus is nothing but frontal attack — against Prabhupada.
Meanwhile intelligent Westerners avoid Vaishnavism like anything. Thats what Bhakta Jarek is working for?
Listen Vitalij the best is just slow down, I don’t say damm one word you accused me of. Everything you need about guru is in Prabhupada books, I do not know or accept anything more than that. I have never said Prabhupada has done anything wrong or bad, since this is maya, rascaldom and suicide boy. I am more and more happy doing my little job here and don’t like to go back to hell for Vaishnava apparadha. You sahajiyas are unfortuantelly talking your minds and this is the problem with you.
JAREK: People like Puranjana are kind off. The stubbornly asked by him question for the “living” guru shows the notoriously offensive and spiritually stagnant nature of such hat is the meaning of asking such stupid question? Many times we quoted here in Srila Prabhupada on the Guru issue, for example;
“Spiritual master is not that a particular man is spiritual master. Spiritual master is a truth. So what is that truth? The truth is samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam **. The whole world is in the blaze of material pangs, threefold miseries. And a person who is authorized to deliver people from that material pangs, he is called spiritual master.” Sri Vyasa-puja — Hamburg, September 5, 1969
[PD: I am sorry but you cannot start a religion based on the worship of no particular man, no particular God and so on. You are cherry picking out of context again. Srila Prabhupada also says “acharya -upasanam” — this is the first principle of spiritual life, you have to take shelter of the acharya. So its a fair question for us to ask, who is that acharya? And anyone you tell “take shelter of the acharya” will also ask, ok and who is that? You are not preaching to anyone or you would know that is the first question they will ask, who is the acharya I have to take shelter of? This simply proves Jarek / Rocana / Kailash have no preaching experience, people will ALWAYS ask, ok, and who is that acharya I have to worship?
Anyway, you are citing this out of context, Srila Prabhupada is saying here that as a general principle — anyone can be a guru — as long as he presents things without change, i.e. all of his followers can be gurus on a general principle; Amara ajaya guru hana. Its a general order for everyone to be a type of guru and preach. This is a general instruction for everyone, you should be a (shiksha) guru and preach. Its not a specific order to worship 11 deviants as acharyas, as Rocana and Kailash have supported. Its also not an “order” to claim you are another Jesus and you can absorb sins etc., as the GBC gurus are doing.]
JAREK: Now, ask here in the Puranjana question for the so called living Guru. He is the main propaganda men for the stupid idea, his diseased notorious repeating the empty and in fact offensive idea pertaining to the most delicate subject is showing how angry this guy is.
[PADA: Except that Jarek is the person who came on this forum quoting Kailash, the person who says the guru is post samadhi, posthumous and postmortem? Jarek says he supports these people, and so we simply quoted his authorities. I am not angry at all, I asked Jarek, and all of his pals since 1978, why you are saying God and His parampara are — postmortem?]
JAREK: How a Guru may be dead?!
[PADA: Right, you are the person quoting the people who say the guru is postmortem, then you ask us why would we agree with — you? You are spinning now. You are arguing with your own shadow.]
JAREK: How much more but one has to get kicked on the face to understand that still there is something like two phases of presence of such rare person what in no sense limits the Guru, but is rather a follow up of the laws of nature which certainly still do however control us, the recipients of Gurus mercy! And the death itself is one of them. How stupid and disrespectfully it sounds, how much it does not make any sense at all! What for constantly bark the “living” guru offensive phrase?
[PD: But you are the folks using the terms post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem and that means not living and — dead. That means, not living. Postmortem means — dead and gone, of course “post” anything means — its gone. For example Jarek says the guru is post samadhi, this is total foolishness. The guru is always in samadhi for eternal time, he is not post samadhi, he is always in samadhi at all times. Samadhi is eternal, it does not end like “post WW II,” ended. Jarek thinks the post WW II and the eternal guru are the same thing, “post.” Nope, guru is eternal, his samadhi is eternal.]
JAREK: The motives can’t be of any good nature here, such questions show a nastiness of the Poorjanis party men. The perspective people like Puranjana and his blind angry followers have is from the beginning wrong, it is material perspective, where there is no clear awareness, or a sober assumption that we may be something else than our nasty subtle body consistent of the mind, material intelligence and ahankara. We are certainly bewildered by the actions of the three gunas, there is no doubt about it, and such foolish empty and angrily motivated question will spoil everything bringing nothing but sorrow, a life of anger bereft of compassion, life without constant chanting and without performance of the sankirtan Kali Yuga dharma. Asking questions and giving solution to the performance of the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra this is what we may expect from a great souls and our seniors, not stupid and materially motivated questions and rumor mongering.
[PADA: OK except Rocana, Kailash and the promoters of the postmortem guru idea have — no guru, no kirtana, no temples, no books, no nothing. And apparently, neither do you. Rocana and Kailash are trying to say that the acharyas make mistakes, so they wanted conditioned souls to be their guru successors. That means they think the acharyas are defective, no wonder they have no programs, temples, etc., they are the anti-Christs of ISKCON. Anyway, like I said, Jarek is not able to answer the first question anyone on the street would ask — if he was preaching to people to save them.
OK, the person on the street says, agreed, acharya upasanam, — but who is that? Jarek could not answer their first question because, he is not preaching to save anyone. He is not preaching at all, or he would know this is the first question the conditioned souls will ask. So he is not preaching, and this proves it. Even any man on the street would say, ok acharya upasanam, that is what your book says, who is the acharya you want me to take shelter of? Bhakta Jarek could not even answer the first preaching question from a man on the street, never mind our questions. Bhakta Jarek has never answered any of this, despite our repeated requests for answers, but then again neither have his heroes like Moab desert pada answered either, in 35 years. ys pd]
Mahesh Raja says:
8 June 2013 at 10:12 pm
MR — “SG — your guru Rocana is so DESPERATE he TWISTS the FACTS regards the
Ritvik Order July 9th 1977. The system to enter the names of initiated
disciples of Srila Prabhupada in book was ALREADY in place and done by
the Srila Prabhupada’s secretary so please read properly—- if you can:
Tamala Krsna: You know that book I’m maintaining of all of your disciples’
names? Should I continue that?
Prabhupada: Hm..”
SG — The conversation is not the official letter. The July 9th 1977 letter is.
Whatever they may have discussed on July 7th 1977 but two days later in the
official July 9th 1977 letter, it was stated as send the initiated names to
Srila Prabhupada only.
It was not stated as send the names to Tamal Krsna or Srila Prabhupada and
Tamal Krsna or to any other disciples of his. Word for word this last and
final line of instruction from Srila Prabhupada was specific and after his
departure it cannot be followed.
So, if the ritviks were to say simply follow the instruction and do not interpret,
it is not possible. Everything the ritviks are doing related to initiation
( post samadhi ritvik initiated ) is interpreted and is not according to the
instruction as per the July 9th 1977 letter.
HARE KRSNA.
Puranjana das says:
9 June 2013 at 4:35 pm
PD : Srila Prabhupada also says “acharya -upasanam” — this is the first principle
of spiritual life, you have to take shelter of the acharya. So its a fair
question for us to ask, who is that acharya? And anyone you tell “take shelter
of the acharya” will also ask, ok and who is that?
SG : Alright, Puranjana dasa we will again tell you. We have mentioned this before
but for some reason you did not notice it or do not want to notice it. Never mind,
we understand you are getting old, ageing misery being part and parcel of this
material body.
Please note,
WE ARE TAKING SHELTER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA
THROUGH HIS VANI, HIS BOOKS.
Hope this puts your troubled mind to rest.
HARE KRSNA
No honest or truthful individual can responsibly claim to be able respectively follow the so called July 9 order. The system of proxy initiations is been thoroughly perfectly settled circumstantially applied arrangement which in fact was completely inherently bound to the extended energies of Srila Prabhupada in the realm of His ashrama-ISKCON under the condition of Him being an fully aware and active part of it, also in the sense of place (“India, I am here…”).
None of the points mentioned in the July 9 letter after ISKCON was turned into FISKCON by the kidnappers in fact can’t be followed now without interpretation, adulteration, or any other material conditioning of any kind which may occur because of the origin or so called cultural background of the particular deviant proponents of the manufactured ritvik in absentia diksha on demand scam. So we will have some kind of Indian and western type versions here in the main stream divisions of the wider sect. All of that is done by ruthless and envious conditioned souls who thus will destroy anything at anytime whatsoever and anyway.
The principle of taking the shelter of an acharya, i.e.exclusively of Srila Prabhupada only, at least in this Kali Yuga, can’t be followed in the case of concocted ideas pertaining to be bona fide by the means of meticulously chosen lies and perverted arguments in disguise of honesty and devotion while impudently ascribed to the very Acarya himself. None of them can replace the bona fide gradual process of self-control, of surrendering the mind, body and intelligence to Sri Sri Guru and Gouranga, while constantly performing the Kali Yuga dharma of sankirtan, congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha mantra.
[PADA: Thanks SG, yes the books are the real link to the pure devotee and Krishna, agreed. ys pd]
Jarek: No honest or truthful individual can responsibly claim to be able respectively follow the so called July 9 order.
[PADA: But you are not being honest? You said you are not promoting the living guru idea, but you are promoting the people who are — like Kailash? You are a hypocrite.]
JAREK: The system of proxy initiations is been thoroughly perfectly settled circumstantially applied arrangement which in fact was completely inherently bound to the extended energies of Srila Prabhupada in the realm of His ashrama-ISKCON under the condition of Him being an fully aware and active part of it, also in the sense of place (“India, I am here…”).
[PADA: Anyone who is not pure is a proxy, that includes all of us. Every single devotee since 1977 is a proxy for the pure devotee, there are no examples of anyone who is not a proxy. That includes Jarek, except he is a proxy for postmortem pada Kailash, the fool on the hill, whereas all of us are proxies of Srila Prabhupada.]
JAREK: None of the points mentioned in the July 9 letter after ISKCON was turned into FISKCON by the kidnappers in fact can’t be followed now without interpretation, adulteration, or any other material conditioning of any kind which may occur because of the origin or so called cultural background of the particular deviant proponents of the manufactured ritvik in absentia diksha on demand scam. So we will have some kind of Indian and western type versions here in the main stream divisions of the wider sect. All of that is done by ruthless and envious conditioned souls who thus will destroy anything at anytime whatsoever and anyway.
[PADA: OK except you never tell us what was ordered then, and where its being applied?]
JAREK: The principle of taking the shelter of an acharya, i.e.exclusively of Srila Prabhupada only, at least in this Kali Yuga, can’t be followed in the case of concocted ideas pertaining to be bona fide by the means of meticulously chosen lies and perverted arguments in disguise of honesty and devotion while impudently ascribed to the very Acarya himself.
[PADA: But you never tell us what was ordered then? You keep saying, we are not supposed to act as proxies for the acharya, ok what are we supposed to do then? And how come you never tell us? And what system are you following and where is it being followed? I hope Kailash, the Moab messiah, is not your example of how you apply your idea?]
JAREK: None of them can replace the bona fide gradual process of self-control, of surrendering the mind, body and intelligence to Sri Sri Guru and Gouranga, while constantly performing the Kali Yuga dharma of sankirtan, congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha mantra.
[PADA: But Kailash has no congregation, unless you are counting the tumbleweeds? You say you are not a proxy for the pure devotee, that means, you are the pure devotee? Either you are a proxy, or you are the real thing. You say you are not the proxy, that means de facto — you are the real thing? That means you are another Kailash, he is not a proxy, he thinks he is the real pure devotee. You cannot be both, you are either a proxy or your are the actual item. We do not think Jarek is the actual item. Why is that? ys pd]
SG the following is clear from the Secretary of Srila Prabhupada:
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikeśa Mahārāja, he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay
It does NOT require for Srila Prabhupada to complete such trival tasks. Tamal Krsna was position was as Secretary this is why he states …”he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay”
The philosophy is simple for the simple: crooked for the crooks who want to replace Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru.
Hare Krsna!
“The philosophy is simple for the simple: crooked for the crooks who want to replace Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru.”
This is the core of the deviation, in both cases (FISKCon and ritvikism) the materially motivated and prejudiced individuals erroneously create dichotomy in relation to Sri Guru. While in Caitanya Caritamrita the following verses condemn such obscurantism.
“There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the Initiating and Instructing Spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.47)
“The Initiating and Instructing Spiritual Masters are equal and identical manifestations of Krsna, although They have different dealings. Their function is to guide the conditioned souls back home, back to Godhead.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.34)
SG is promoting our idea, that we are taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada through his vani, in his books. That’s essentially what we have been preaching since 1978. So that means our idea is being incorporated in many places, including ISKCON, albeit gradually.
I have also noted recently that Bhakti Caru swami is preaching a very similar idea to ours, that we all need to focus on Srila Prabhupada through his vani — books. That is a huge change from what BCS was preaching in the 1990s, when he was saying our “vani seva of the pure devotee” idea is “the Christian idea” because we have no “living body” to worship in our process.
He was saying then that we need to all worship a living body, which is chock full of stools and so on. He was saying that worship of a live body is the only way to reach Krishna, except, — Krishna never said he wanted people to worship material bodies, full of stools and etc. to attain Him? Where does He say that?
“If you want to attain Me, worship a bucket of manure”? And so we defeated BCS by our saying, his idea is foolish and wrong, and he is finally realizing that himself, although it took us 30 years to pound that idea into his head. Amazing, we had to preach to BCS for 30 years — before he finally started to get it, worship of a bucket of manure, is not the Gaudiya Vaishnava process? He is slower than a pack of turtles, 30 years before he understood that God is not attained by worship of a bucket of manures?
So he has changed to more or less our idea. He was saying that worship of someone like Jesus is bogus because we need to worship his program, worship of a bag of blood, pus, stools and mucous, instead of pure devotees. BCS has been totally in the bodily concept of life. BCS has been in MUCH WORSE illusion than the ordinary materialists, since even the materialists do not worship a bag of “live” stools, they worship Jesus. They are way more advanced than BCS, they never worship a bag of manure, ever.
Nope, they have been much more advanced than BCS, they worship Jesus. In fact, no religion one earth agrees with BCS 1990s idea — that we need to worship a living bucket of manure to attain Godhead? This is total foolishness, and he even agrees now, so he is preaching our idea to a large extent. Very good, that means our preaching works, its finally sinking in — even into BCS, albeit it took us 30 years of pounding the idea into his brain before he could figure this out. Yes, the living bucket of manure pooja idea is fading out, and our idea is being accepted and incorporated, very nice! ys pd
Puranjana said:”I have also noted recently that Bhakti Caru swami is preaching a very similar idea to ours, that we all need to focus on Srila Prabhupada through his vani — books. That is a huge change from what BCS was preaching in the 1990s, when he was saying our “vani seva of the pure devotee” idea is “the Christian idea” because we have no “living body” to worship in our process.”
Yes, Bhakti Caru FisKcon Swami is doing the same mistake you ritiviks do, he is speculating all the time, therefore he thinks, “oh, how nicely I am advancing in my spiritual life”. Change however means “rascal”, and a “huge change” means a HUGE RASCAL!
At, least you know who are you going with to be in hell with your common policy of changing, twisting and misguiding.
For me it is unreproducible how Bhakta Jarek’s idea is in any way different from what ISKCON does since 1977. He is using the same compunctious language – fulmination – but no convincing arguments, because — there are none. Therefore it always comes down to name-calling profanity.
Basically Bh Jarek says there is no perfect guru available right now but in near future there will be fully realized gurus appearing. However, present mood of the ritviks is as such that they won’t acknowledge these future mahabhagvats who have not appeared yet but are about to appear on Earth.
Therefore those naughty ritviks have to be beaten with sticks. By hook or crook, someone has to sit on the throne. Without a living body guru, Vaishnavism is, Bh. Jarek: “As demonic as the church”.
Then Bh Jarek quotes slokas like saksadhari, guru is directly God, but never mentions what happened so far.
Prabhupada’s approach is slightly different. Like a school teacher Prabhupada always checked if his teaching were actually implemented. Prabhupada didn’t want pseudo followers.
Prabhupada was aware that Westerners are fallen and it is difficult to raise them to brahmana platform.
Prabhupada mentioned that people accuse him that, “Bhaktivedanta Swami is spoiling our Hindu religion.” That in India the caste brahmanas criticize him that, “Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin.”
Prabhupada stated repeatedly fallen brahmanas are unacceptable. There are so many fallen brahmanas in India and when Western brahmanas are also fallen, then, Prabhupada concluded: “My attempt is futile”.
Not sure whether Bh Jarek presently takes antipsychotic drugs but he seems to constantly see that in future a whole army of pure devotees will appear who change present course and turn this planet into Vaikuntha.
So far so good, but if this is actually true why all this hysterics? Aren’t devotees confident of the protection of Krishna?
Srila Rupa Gosvami says that even the demons were relying upon the dependability of Krishna, because they were confident that Krishna would never attack them without due cause. Therefore, with faith and confidence, they used to live with their doors wide open. (NoD 24)
Bhaktin Chelsea is stubbornly confused, she wants to belief in what she says;”Basically Bh Jarek says there is no perfect guru available right now but in near future there will be fully realized gurus appearing. However, present mood of the ritviks is as such that they won’t acknowledge these future mahabhagvats who have not appeared yet but are about to appear on Earth.”
No, I do not say that there is no perfect guru now, I never said such rascal nonsense, you are a liar girl!!!
I do throughly belief and practically experience what the following statements by the Acarya Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada say;
“The Vedic instruction is, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, “one must.” Eva means “must.” Abhigacchet, this verb is used when there is the sense of “must.” It never says “Go to a guru,” but he says “Must approach the guru.” Guru is one. Guru cannot be two. Gurum evabhigacchet. And we see also, practically, in the disciplic succession of guru, the same thing is spoken by the guru. Same thing. Repetition of the same subject matter, no other.”
Lecture: What is a Guru? — London, August 22, 1973
“The spiritual master can be present wherever the disciples wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”
– Srila Prabhupada letter — May 28, 1968
– which simply solves all your speculations or problems, including neo karthabaja lunatic and FISKCON phobic duel without end.
“The philosophy is simple for the simple: crooked for the crooks who want to replace Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru.”
Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 17: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 — Honolulu, July 4, 1974 : 740704BG.HON :
Prabhupāda: Then so śikṣā and dīkṣā-guru… A śikṣā-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a śikṣā guru. He is a demon. Śikṣā-guru, dīkṣā-guru means… Sometimes a dīkṣā-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the śikṣā-guru. Śikṣā-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the dīkṣā-guru. He is not a śikṣā-guru. He is a rascal.
Note: Srila Prabhupada: I am in the initiator guru
Letters : 1975 Correspondence : August : Letter to: Madhudvisa: — Detroit 4 August, 1975 : 75-08-04 :
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968, San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.
Bhakta Jarek is preaching a form of the Christian idea, “He is coming soon.” That is what Rocana and Kailash have been saying for 35 years. So we cannot preach, they will block us, because we have to wait for them to find their next messiah — of course what happens if they never find one in the next 10,000 years? No one will be saved at all, waiting for them?
Meanwhile, their big preaching program is — preaching to the tumbleweeds in Moab Utah. They will never tell us about their big temples, kirtanas, Rathayatra programs, book distribution, initiations, new devotees, prasad distribution etc., there is none, no signs of life at all — Jarek’s preaching is as postmortem as his gurus’. No life symptoms at all, of course if you worship the posthumous Moab messiahs club leaders, then you become like them. They are walking dead bodies. Zombies.
Because Jarek worships zombie pada Kailash, a dead man walking in the desert, who is preaching to the scorpions as his only followers; They are themselves already posthumous, post samadhi, postmortem. Their use of these odious terms is a self-fulfilling prophecy, they become what they preach about, postmortem. Srila Prabhupada said these Gaudiya Matha guru’s preaching is dead, they also preached about the need to worship their living bag of bones.
Their preaching is as dead as they are. Jarek’s whole program is postmortem, that is why he never tells us about his preaching program, there is none. Jarek’s preaching program is dead as a door nail. The only good news is, Jarek’s guru has many scorpion followers. Scorpion pada, and that is what Jarek worships. They are postmortem, while claiming we are postmortem, except, we have thousands of people following our idea, not thousands of tumbleweeds, scorpions and tarantulas. All glories to postmortem pada and his posthumous disciples like Jarek, their preaching is dead because, their spiritual lives are dead. Srila Prabhupada said that, this Gaudiya Matha idea, living guru, has made the mission’s preaching — dead. ys pd
If a pure devotee did appear within ISKCON, he wouldn’t be saying, “I wanna be a guru like Srila Prabhupada!” He would be perfectly satisfied doing some menial service like Jayananda Prabhu was.
“The spiritual master can be present wherever the disciples wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”
– Srila Prabhupada letter — May 28, 1968
Here Srila Prabhupada says;”… Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya. This is not an artificial imposition on you. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. The living example you can see, that I have got now branches, twenty branches in Europe and America. They are neither Hindus nor Indian. How they are accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness? In our society, International Society for Krishna Consciousness, perhaps I am the only Indian. Perhaps I am the only Indian. Perhaps it is fact. But why, how they are taking it? Because it is there, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, within you, within me, within everyone. Simply we have to invoke it. That’s all. And that invoking process is the saṅkīrtana movement. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you chant this simple process, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, you’ll very quickly clear up your heart and you will understand, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. You’ll understand that Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva, is everything. So this movement is neither manufactured nor bogus nor bluff, but it is genuine. It is authorized and it is natural, constitutional. Try to understand this philosophy. We are teaching nothing, no new philosophy. Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that’s all. Unfortunately, Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, but there are many rascal interpreters. They have spoiled the whole thing.”
Conway Hall Lecture — London, September 15, 1969
Mahesh Raja Prabhu, you are absolutely CORRECT when you say this ; ” The philosophy is simple for the simple: crooked for the crooks who want to replace Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru.”
Further more Srila Prabhupada Himself says this which is abundantly clear Instructions for the simple people to accept and obey it ;
” Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968, San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”
BUT, it is that simplicity of the Instructions make it more complex for the complicated / crooked people who choose to DISOBEY these simple Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada for their personal motivated agenda to enjoy sense gratification by creating the mode of ignorance not accepting and obeying these simple Instructions in Srila Prabhupadas’ world wide Society of ISKCON.
For an example, in the Satya Yuga, we learn it from the SB. that the powerful demon Haigrava the brother of Hirnakyspu stole the Veda to create darkness of ignorance for the massive people to enjoy his own sense gratification. That is a demoniac mentality who refuses and rejects the Divine Instructions.
Similarly, those who refuse and reject the Initiating Instructions mentioned above by HDG. Srila Prabhupada Himself in His Society are none other than the category of the DEMONS as per the example given in the Sastra.
Hope this example under discussion gives rest to this topic from further USELESS discussion by the demoniac mentality people who refuses and rejects this very simple Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
All Glories to HDG. Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.
OM TAT SAT.
Dear Readers,
I find this very interesting and thought to share it with all of you.
” In Chapter 4 of Harinam cintamani, entitled ‘Holy People Criticize’ there is interesting information about bad company. A person who is on the mental and intellectual platform cannot inject Krishna consciousness in people. Only the person who has clear spiritual ideals, is practising Krishna consciousness in a strict way and is in the mode of goodness, such pure people can inject Krishna consciousness because that person lives in transcendence and is pure.
In the Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya lila 15.108 it is said that unless we are initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all our devotional activities are useless and you can go back down to the animal species.
So who is such personality, one may ask ?
He is none other than the present Acaraya HDG. Srila Prabhupada who is present in His Pure VANI.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
What Bh Jarek / SD / George Smith / Rocana and others should imply is that meanwhile present Vaishnava institution are no more reliable from public point of view. Their system of arbitrarily appointing life-long autocrats (GBC) produced too many failures. Especially Western nations without Hindu population are in bad shape, temples closed, books in local language not reprinted, properties mortgaged with banks, etc.
At present very strong management is required and — vigilant observation. People in general cannot put trust in this movement and new devotees cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under such insufficient guidance.
Only remedy in such mood of crisis is to have temple communities elect their temple presidents. There is of course strong opposition to install DOM, election of bona fide ISKCON leaders, but when a society accomplished such chaos for more than 30 years why insist to flog a dead horse?
Anantarupa Das: Only remedy in such mood of crisis is to have temple communities elect their temple presidents. There is of course strong opposition to install DOM, election of bona fide ISKCON leaders, but when a society accomplished such chaos for more than 30 years why insist to flog a dead horse?
Mahesh: the “strong opposition” is ONLY FROM THE CORRUPT. THEY ARE ALL INTO SCREWING MONEY AND EXPLOITING OTHERS FOR SLAVERY UNDER THE NAME OF GURU BUSINESS.
Anti Dom Rocana was part and parcel of Guru Reform Committee:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/about-rocana-das-sampradaya-sun.html
And Rocana thinks Sridhara Maharaja a CONDITIONED SOUL can give Diksa:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
The main problem we have with Rocana / Kailash / Jarek / George Smith and others is that they are preaching “wait for the next messiah” — but that is not what we were told to do? That is basically what some Christian cults are preaching, “Wait!, he is coming very soon”! How do they know that? They do NOT know the future. This is called mental speculation.
What we were told to do is — not to wait for the next messiah at all — but to promote the books of Srila Prabhupada right NOW — and not to wait for possibly another 10,000 years, for another alleged messiah to come — before we start preaching. No such future messiah is mentioned, anywhere? So their “sit and wait” idea is why they have no programs to speak of, none of them.
Therefore they are NOT fulfilling the orders of Srila Prabhupada, to continue his preaching movement NOW. They are saying our preaching NOW is a waste of time, because they want us to stop all our preaching NOW, and wait along with them on the top of Mt. Moab, for the return of their so-called next messiah.
And there are some Christian cults doing exactly that too, they get together on a hill. like Jarek and his fool on the hill (ok Mt. Moab) leader Kailash, and wait for the “second coming,” and they are mainly considered as nut bags by everyone, including all the other Christians, who are not waiting at all, they are preaching now.
We simply cannot stop everything, and sit and wait for the next 10,000 years for the next messiah, when none was even mentioned? Nor do we want to preach to the tumbleweeds as the Jarek and Kailash program does for the past 30 years, its a waste of human life to sit on a hill and wait for the next messiah. Of course Kailash thinks he is so pure, the next messiah will land on his door step on Mt. Moab! These foolish people actually think the next messiah is coming to greet — them! Talk about “out of control ego,” the messiah is coming soon, and he will land — on my doorstep! Very puffed up and foolish. The only thing landing on Kailash’s doorstep is a pack of scorpions and venemous desert snakes. ys pd
Ritvikism is born out of darkness, it is bastard child of corrupted and criminal activities of the party men spirit of FISKCON. The advocates of both those camps are the victims of Kali, their main religion is dishonesty and false propaganda. Spiritually empty and lazy they create a havoc for the suffering society at large. Only honest men are liable to reinstate in their natural position as eternal servant, part and parcel of Krishna. Such lucky individuals will not waste their only chance to get out of this material misery indulging in another rascal cults based on constant quarrel, fights and interpretations. A liar is a looser, always.
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1, Chapter 5 Vers 11Translation and comments by
H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada
tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo
yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api
nāmāny anantasya yaśo ‘ṅkitāni yat
śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ
SYNONYMS
tat—that; vāk—vocabulary; visargaḥ—creation; janatā—the people in general; agha—sins; viplavaḥ—revolutionary; yasmin—in which; prati-ślokam—each and every stanza; abaddhavati—irregularly composed; api—in spite of; nāmāni—transcendental names, etc.; anantasya—of the unlimited Lord; yaśaḥ—glories; aṅkitāni—depicted; yat—what; śṛṇvanti—do hear; gāyanti—do sing; gṛṇanti—do accept; sādhavaḥ—the purified men who are honest.
TRANSLATION
On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world’s misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.
“Ritvikism is born out of darkness, it is bastard child of corrupted and criminal activities of the party men spirit of FISKCON.”
Bhakta Jarek is a good example to study whats happening with misdirected bhaktas. Formerly during Prabhupada’s physical presence, young bhaktas were busy to open temples, print books and prepare wonderful prasadam. There was no time / reason to ponder over unsolved question.
Now these very same devotees took shelter at their mom’s home and while sitting on the living room couch all day to cudgel one’s brains what is wrong with Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement?
On one side I’m with Bhakta Jarek. Present ISKCON leadership forgot how to preach to intelligent Westerners. Nowadays they mainly recruit refugees driven by poverty, prison inmates and favela (slum) inhabitants.
Favorite preaching target of ISKCON’s preaching elite, 3rd world countries, South East Asia, Africa – what says a lot about present ISKCON frame of mind.
And, Bh. Jarek, agreed, who doesn’t wish to have pure Vaishnava acaryas to populate the empty vyasasanas, teaching pure Krishna-katha to enlighten humanity?
Nobody says, pure devotees not welcome, we are ritviks. Why Bh. Jarek thinks like that? Pure Vaishnava acaryas are most welcome by any devotee! But there is no reason to panic. Sri Advaita Acarya is giving the example to pray to the Lord to either appear Himself or empower an advanced Vaishnava.
Since there is lots of silence many seem to follow Bh Jarek and patiently wait till Krishna sends another physically present Prabhupada. Then there are those who can see that Prabhupada didn’t leave, he’s still present, let’s go on as ever. Go figure, do what you can do best but stop to nag.
Anantarupa das do you know me, are you endowed with some potencies to see me sitting in my mothers house, or are you rather as usually lying and concocting to sastisfy your lust and anger? I don’t know you, but I certainly know where I am and what I am doing. By the way, it’s funny to talk with you folks, exactly the same cliche, as while quarreling with FisKcon guru sect victims, remarkable and tragic thing in deed.
Ok lets face it, Bhakta Jarek is never going to tell us about his program and how he is saving the conditioned souls, he has none, and he is not interested in helping save anyone. He is simply angry that we are. He worships the fool on a hill Kailash, who also has no interest in saving anyone, except himself. KD is afraid when California collapses into the ocean, which he says it will any day now, he will die. KD is afraid of death and — his own shadow. KD only wants to save himself. He is the super-excellent example of selfishness, he wants to save himself and no one else. These people are however unable to save themselves even, anyone who is afraid of death like KD is, and has to stop preaching for 30 years because he is worried about drowning, when our state falls into the ocean, is in more illusion than the karmis are. The karmis are not afraid to die, they stay in California, they have more spiritual shakti than Jarek’s team ever will have. And they preach about Jesus every day, they have no fear of death, and they preach, that means the karmis are much more advanced than Jarek and his team. ys pd
Puranjana I love you too, greatings from the Mount Kailash:-)
And talking seriously now, it is really pity we quarrrel and fight with one another, but that’s the risk to be taken unless one does not want to practice a kind of “i am a servant of anyone and anything with a Hare Krishna logo on”. Everyone has to find out for himself who is he going to follow exclusively and without delay, in toto. Spiritual path is like razors egde, one may spiritually bleed to death, and maya is so tricky that we may first get to know after passing away how much wrong we were. Lets us follow the current ISKCON Acarya Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada and do not make any kind of premature experiments based on speculations like the ritviks or FisKcon scammers do. Change means rascal, you know who had said it. After reading what I said here, and said many times before please dont ask me this offencive ritivk bullshit about living guru, don’t accuse me of following devotees who you hate so much Puranjana. I am simply reading hearing and try to follow the only person who make for me sense and changes my whole hellish life into hevean on earth, so simple! Chant Hare Krishna and be happy, than the ritvik crap will go away. Do it now!
Yes everyone noted the irony that Kailash Chandra dasa took half the money, and half the cows, from ISKCON’s Mt. Kailash farm here when it was sold. And then he was living in an apartment in Texas, no cows in sight. No one ever knows where those cows went, there has never been any accounting for them, nor the money that was meant to care for them.
The other person (Advaita dasa) who took the other half the money, and half the cows, used his share of the money and bought some land to take care of his share of the cows, and he still has those cows there on his land, that he bought with half the cow’s money.
Whereas Kailash was living in an apartment right away, with no cows, that means — or so it it seems — he hi-jacked the cows and their money. To sum: He lied when he said he was using the cows money for the cows. He used their money for himself.
That means — he should have given ALL the cows and ALL the money to Advaita. Instead he wanted the cow’s money, but not the cows, he never took care of them at all. It seems he stole the cows to get the cow’s money. That is what we all think over here in sunny California — Kailash stole the cow’s money, he was living in an apartment, using the cows’ money for his own self. And it seems he sold the cows also for money, that is the way it looks.
OK, at least thats what it looks like to most of us over here.
No one has ever seen those cows ever again, hence Kailash Chandra is called “the cattle rustler” around here. Most of the people I know think he pocketed the cow’s money, and probably the cows never even got to Texas, he sold them along the way somewhere, to make more money off the cows.
Now the chief Mt. Kailash farm cow rustler is preaching from Mt. Moab, using money from stolen cows? Cows that are very likely, no longer alive? Where are these cows? And where is their money? And why has Kaliash never shown us any documented proof, such as receipts and so forth, proving — the cows — are even alive? And why is Jarek so attracted to these cattle thieves?
Any now Kailash’s best pal Rocana is calling for closing the Bhaktivedanta Archives, ok they are not for closing the Satsvarupa Writing Trust, only Prabhupada’s Archives? Hmm, so Satsvarupa’s writings should be immortalized, and not Prabhupada’s? And this is Jarek’s program? Yes, they are officially falling off the cliff now, thats all. And now Mr. Cowboy Kaliash better pray his cows were not harmed, because stealing money from cows is about as low as it gets in the karma samsara wheel, and this is all recorded by the agents of Yama, and there is no evidence this is not what happened.
All glories to Jarek and his cowboy wanna-be messiah — cattle rustler pada!
ys pd
Mahesh Raja says:
10 June 2013 at 6:38 pm
MR — It does NOT require for Srila Prabhupada to complete such trivial tasks.
Tamal Krsna was position was as Secretary this is why he states …”he
should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay”
SG — If you say it is such a trivial task, why did Srila Prabhupada mention about
it in his official July 9th 1977 letter. Srila Prabhupada last and final line of
instruction in the July 9th 1977 letter was that he was to be the recipient of the
initiated disciples name. He didn’t mentioned anyone else as the recipient.
****************
Mahesh Raja says:
11 June 2013 at 11:55 am
MR — Note: Srila Prabhupada: I am in the initiator guru
Letters : 1975 Correspondence : August : Letter to: Madhudvisa: — Detroit 4
August, 1975 : 75-08-04 :
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you
should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am
doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968,
San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupada: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members
of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and
regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.
SG — Why do you need to quote past statements made by Srila Prabhupada.?
Is not the instruction given in the July 9th letter adequate to follow.? For that
matter why do you need to quote so many statements from books, lectures conversations,
past letters etc to support your POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION.?
Is there something wrong with the instruction given in the July 9th 1977 letter.?
Is not Srila Prabhupada clear and straight forward in his instructions given in the
July 9th 1977 letter.? Can’t you follow his instruction given in the July 9th 1977
letter.?
HARE KRSNA
Here we go again, Rocana and his pals invented these terms — post samadhi, posthumous and postmortem, to apply to the eternal guru. And SG is their disciple. Sorry, we are not disciples of Rocana / Kailash / GBC and so on, we believe that God and His successors are eternal. That means, they are not postmortem. Rocana’s “church of the postmortem” is itself — postmortem, he has no followers. SG thinks we need to prove that God and His successors are eternal, this is atheism. ys pd
Srila Prabhupada’s WILL clearly states “…my initiated disciple”.
2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.
3. Properties in India will be managed by the following executive directors:
a) Properties at Śrī Māyāpur Dhāma, Panihati, Haridaspur and Calcutta: Gurukṛpā Swami, Jayapatākā Swami, Bhavānanda Gosvāmī and Gopal Kṛṣṇa das Adhikārī.
b) Properties at Vṛndāvana: Gurukṛpā Swami, Akshoyananda Swami, and Gopal Kṛṣṇa das Adhikārī.
c) Properties at Bombay: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Gosvāmī, Giriraj das Brahmachary, and Gopal Kṛṣṇa das Adhikārī.
d) Properties at Bhubaneswar: Gour Govinda Swami, Jayapatākā Swami, and Bhagawat das Brahmachary .
e) Properties at Hyderbad: Mahāṁśa Swami, Śrīdhar Swami, Gopal Kṛṣṇa das Adhikārī and Bali Mardan das Adhikārī.
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time.
Yhs, Balaram das
Ritvik vadis are like the surfers catching any wave suitable for their selfish egoistic fun. What from a formal point of view has the Declaration of Will from June 4 1977 to do with the July 9 1977 instruction?
The answer is: “NOTHING”, the respective issues are completely different and separate regulations.
The July 9th document states that TKG was secretary.
What were the duties of the secretary?
In the material world big people have secretaries to deal with their mail, as standard procedure.
MR — It does NOT require for Srila Prabhupada to complete such trivial tasks.
Tamal Krsna was position was as Secretary this is why he states …”he
should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay”
SG — If you say it is such a trivial task, why did Srila Prabhupada mention about
it in his official July 9th 1977 letter. Srila Prabhupada last and final line of
instruction in the July 9th 1977 letter was that he was to be the recipient of the
initiated disciples name. He didn’t mentioned anyone else as the recipient.
Mahesh: When a Billionaire has servants he can employ them to do his menial services like enter details of some transactions in a book the transactions are important but it does not mean that the trivial tasks entrusted are to be done personally by the Billionaire. Srila Prabhupada’s Secretary was a SERVANT he had to enter the details of names of Initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada in a Book there was no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s PHYSICAL presence just to hold the pen and write it down in a book or Type (which are MENIAL services)
Srila Prabhupada is the OBVIOUS Diksa Guru and the disciples are HIS as per July 9th 1977. HOW Srila Prabhupada CHOOSES to ACCEPT the disciple is given in his books:
Note: the words OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE:
In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year.
As per July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order Ritvik is THIS Representative of the Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada — it does NOT require Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence just for conducting FORMALITY.
Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta — 1975 Edition : Cc. Madhya-lila : Madhya 24: The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse : Madhya 24.330 : PURPORT : samo damas tapah saucam ksantir arjavam eva ca jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam :
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaiṣṇava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brāhmaṇa.
Note: we Prabhupadanugas who accept the Ritvik system and Direction of Management also offer Vyasa Puja to Srila Prabhupada DEITY. In ISKCON HYPOCRITES so called gurus also offer the “Vysa puja” to Srila Prabhupada DEITY BUT to these showbottle CON-ARTISTS their worship to Srila Prabhupada DEITY is SUPERFICIAL. July 9th 1977 Order simply means Srila Prabhupada is PRESENT in his DEITY FORM to ACCEPT the SERVICE he IS the RECEPIENT. Disciple means DISCIPLINE and ONLY Srila Prabhupada has given in ISKCON ALL the DISCIPLINE:
In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
Who is Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple?
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit:
Prabhupada: “Who is my disciple? First of all let him FOLLOW STRICTLY THE DISCIPLINED RULES.
Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is…
Prabhupada: Then he is all right.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bhaktijana, September 21, 1972:
“You do not require to worry as I shall never leave you, you are my disciple and I am your spiritual master, so there is no question, AS LONG AS you follow my instructions, that I shall ever leave you. Just remember under all circumstances to chant sixteen rounds of japa daily, offer your prasadam to Krsna, and do all of the things which you already know, as you are senior disciple. These things will protect you under all conditions, without any doubt.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, November 7, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one follows the principles, he continues to be my disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tusta Krsna, November 9, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one continues to follow the rules and regulations, he continues to be my disciple wherever he may be.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 9, 1969:
“Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. THIS DEFYING MEANS TO DISCONNECT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. AND ANYONE WHO DEFIES AND THEREFORE DISCONNECTS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh Raja says:
11 June 2013 at 11:55 am
MR — Note: Srila Prabhupada: I am in the initiator guru
Letters : 1975 Correspondence : August : Letter to: Madhudvisa: — Detroit 4
August, 1975 : 75-08-04 :
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you
should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am
doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968,
San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupada: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members
of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and
regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.
SG — Why do you need to quote past statements made by Srila Prabhupada.?
Is not the instruction given in the July 9th letter adequate to follow.? For that
matter why do you need to quote so many statements from books, lectures conversations,
past letters etc to support your POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION.?
Is there something wrong with the instruction given in the July 9th 1977 letter.?
Is not Srila Prabhupada clear and straight forward in his instructions given in the
July 9th 1977 letter.? Can’t you follow his instruction given in the July 9th 1977
letter.?
Mahesh: July 9th 1977 is good enough for us BUT the EXTRA instructions were for your types: The Philosophy is simple for the simple crooked for the CROOKS who want to replace Srila Prabupada as Diksa Guru.
Hare Krsna!
Bhakta Jarek:
Ritvik vadis are like the surfers catching any wave suitable for their selfish egoistic fun. What from a formal point of view has the Declaration of Will from June 4 1977 to do with the July 9 1977 instruction?
The answer is: “NOTHING”, the respective issues are completely different and separate regulations.
Mahesh: Both the instructions are INTER-RELATED.
The Will states “provided the new director is MY initiated disciple ” it does not state the the disciple is initiated by the CROOK who has usurped Srila Prabhupada’s properties.
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time.
July 9th 1977 states the Initiated disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s:
The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
For the Will to stay in force it MUST have an INITIATED disciple of Srila Prabhupada AT ALL TIMES in the FUTURE generations to come.
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is MY initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time.
THE PHILOSOPHY IS SIMPLE FOR THE SIMPLE CROOKED FOR THE CROOKS WHO WANT TO REPLACE SRILA PRABHUPADA AS DIKSA GURU.
Hare Krsna!
Yes everything is related. Of course Rocana / Kailash / Jarek never tell us what has been actually ordered? Other than, they want us to read the writings of cattle rustler pada on Mt. Moab, meanwhile stop all our preaching, while awaiting the second coming of Jesus, also on Mt. Moab. Fine, except Kailash will be dead for many millions of years before the messiah will re-appear in Mt. Moab.
If the May tape, the July 9th letter, the will, the letters, the 1977 conversations, the all along directive to form a GBC from the late 1960s, and so on, are not the real order, then what is the real order? And why don’t these folks ever tell us? Rocana says we are bogus, ok, what is the real idea then? He never says?
He says our 4 engine airplane is only flying on 3 engines, ok but he has no airplane, no passengers, no flight plan, no destination, not even a paper airplane? He has nothing and neither does Jarek. Rocana also says our idea of worship of Srila Prabhupada is a deviation, and apa-siddhanta, but if we are a deviation from his program, we are deviating from zero, he has no program? We are deviating from, nothing? This makes no sense? ys pd
More Jarek / Kailash / Rocana contradictions found here:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/06/rocana-worship-of-srila-prabhupada-is.html
Bh Jarek simply cements that Prabhupada ordered those legendary eleven leaders to become his successors.
Of course Bh Jarek is clever, he doesn’t say it directly. When challenged he immediately says, no, no, I never said that Prabhupada appointed those men to become full-fledged diksa-gurus.
This exposes all those ritvik bashers – if Prabhupada did not tell these eleven leaders to be diksha-guru acaryas then what remains?
The only thing what remains is that Prabhupada told them to officiate as ritvik-acarya and initiate on his behalf.
If this is the real story and it is the real story, then why Bh Jarek is so much aggressive and hostile toward those who are convinced that Prabhupada did not tell Jayatirtha, Kirtanananda, Harikes, etc. to be next acarya?
All this enmity just doesn’t make sense. Is rather staged, contrived and insincere.
John Morales said:”This exposes all those ritvik bashers — if Prabhupada did not tell these eleven leaders to be diksha-guru acaryas then what remains?”
You see, that’s the problem with FISKCON and it’s counterpart ritvik vadis, they want to initiate! That’s the simplest definition of them, they want to initiate and then enjoy congregational facilities. No matter what I say the FISKCOnities call me ritvik, and the ritviks call me a henchmen of FISKCON gurus, or ask me the stupid question who my living guru is. When I say Srila Prabhupada they shake their heads, how is that? It can’t be, we are His followers, since you are against us so you are a liar, and of course the same thing I hear from FISKCON chelas. Thank you all my friends!
OK Jarek has still not told us, what was ordered? And where is the order being applied according to him? Jarek says he is with Kailash / Rocana, ok and neither of them has any temples, programs, kirtanas, no nothing. They never write one word about their preaching programs, ever.
They never have told us about their programs, and they never will, they will die having nothing, … i.e. no thing, zip, nada, zilch city, zero, phantasm, nuttin, empty, nothing here, nothing there, nothing up my sleeve, outta gas, outta steam, etc.
Jarek worships the church of zero. We do not? We have at least some example to show of how our process works, The Moab Utah program is — not working. Rocana / Jarek say Moab is the place to go to meet their new messiah of the jagat, Kailash, except, no one but a few rattlesnakes are going there? Their program has no practical application, plain and simple.
They have no programs, never have and never will, whereas we DO have programs going on ALL over the world, and its expanding all the time. I just got a phone call from two devotees who just moved to the South Bay Area from the mid-states, they wanted me to give them directions to our temple in Sunnyvale. That’s what they wanted to do, worship Srila Prabhupada and now they are glad they have a place to do that. Jarek says no, I should to send them to — Moab, to fry in the desert where there are no temples at all?
That means — like us or not, at least we have something somewhere to send people to.
Kailash not only has no program, he decided he wants to live in Moab, where 100 percent of the people are ritviks of Jesus, his program is to surrender to the ritviks. The only places of worship in Moab are the Church, which is the ritvik system? You folks are surrendered to the ritviks system, and Rocana is no better, he has no programs either, except he advertises for the Mt. Moab messiah.
Sorry we are not interested in Mt. Moab, thus people are coming to our places, and if you have no place, no pooja, no temples, no deities, no books, no kirtana, no nada, then you will only attract a few rattle snakes in Moab, Thats all you folks have to show for 35 years of preaching, some rattlers, scorpions and tarantulas are your only followers? The rest of Moab are all ritviks?
Sorry this is not an example anyone wants to follow.Show us the real example, and we might follow it. If Kailash’s apartment in Moab is all you have (which he keeps by using money he stole from the cows) and that is your only Chuch, well sorry, no one is going there, not even Jarek is going there, even he is not that foolish. He thinks we are more foolish than he is, we can all go to Moab, but he is not going himself. This is called cheating. Nor has Jarek explained why Kailash has made all of his cows disappear, were the cows taken up to heaven by Kailash’s mystic powers, or were they sold to a cattle ranch on the way to Texas, or worse, sold to a cow rendering plant? And why is Jarek promoting this cow thief? ys pd
“Thank you all my friends!”
Dear Bh. Jarek, there are quite some cases of friendly fire, see video below, and people are careful to not repeat it.
We all were thrown overboard of Prabhupada’s movement, presently swimming in rough sea – struggling not to drown – and those new owners – men of independent means, peacefully sailing away with Prabhupada’s stolen ship (ISKCON movement). So there is no need to have a fight among those who are already thrown overboard and who struggle to survive in the middle of Atlantic Ocean.
You can easily file a libel and slander case for free at Warsaw Supreme Court, http://www.sn.pl/SitePages/Strona%20startowa.aspx, that ISKCON is backbiting you by calling you a ritvik. Basically thats the only thing ISKCON takes seriously. When having won this case you might successfully file for compensation due defamation of character.
So far I have read Srila Prabhupada was not recommending to report devotees (they are still “our” men) into so called legal institutions of the karmi world. In the end I don’t care how people call me, I made just point about the conspicuous similarity of judgements. Of course in a much higher dimension I would like to be once called a devotee by our Acarya Srila Prabhupada Maharaja or later on by Lord Sri Krishna, this may however take quite a while. You are right Vedavyasa das prabhu about not to fight unnecessarily among us, but sorry to say I can’t consider all devotees bona fide or right to the degree to make friends with them. I do however give them my respect in my mind. There are certainly some good souls amongst the ritviks or under the dark forces of the GBC of West Bengal inc., however their sincerity must be questioned otherwise why are they following those enforced and men contrived processes under unscrupulous men?
This Sadharan Jiva aka Bhaktajarek admits that when he writes in his comments as ; ” ……….. or ask me the stupid question who my living guru is. When I say Srila Prabhupada they shake their heads, how is that? ” and yet he repeatedly denies the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
That is why even myself, I shake my head, how is that because I simply see and read like most of the other Readers from his message all through that he is in denial to accept and obey the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada and yet he dares to admit openly in this forum from his writing above that his Living Guru is Srila Prabhupada.
How insane this conditioned Jiva Bhaktajarek is ? What can we make out of it ?
He is definitely confused himself and continues confusing further sincere souls who so ever reads his misdirected interpreted comments in this regard. This is very dangerous.
Hope it rests the discussion.
OM TAT SAT.
OK Jarek is never going to tell us what the “real process” is. He has none. He is clueless. He is a total bag of hot air, the same hot air we find in the Moab desert. Jarek is basically saying what Rocana / Kailash are, there is no process, because Srila Prabhupada never gave us any. He is really attacking Srila Prabhupada, as are his mentors like Rocana / Kailash.
Sorry, we are following the process he gave us in the many instructions he gave since 1967, for example — to have a governing body and — not — self appointed gurus like the Gaudiya Matha did. And — to use his books as the source of divyam jnanam which destroys sins (aka diksha). Ad infinitum, as we have shown in his quotes in our papers ever since the late 1970s.
That is what he ordered, that we have to act as his representatives (preachers / laymen / rtviks) and we have proven that in hundreds of position papers where we cite his orders, which we have made over the years. Jarek is saying, there were no orders, he is saying Srila Prabhupada — forgot to tell us what to do?
Jarek needs to move to Moab and see what happens when you think like that, you become a cow theif hobo, lost in the desert, bereft of anything useful. And Jarek is going to be just like his Moab master, rudderless and — having an abundance of — nothing. ys pd
Amar Puri, the whole ritvik movement is a result of definite confusion. Why otherwise the fathers of the concoction waited ten years with their revelations? i asked once some years ago Yashodanandan why it took ten years, he answered it was Krishna’s will. How sweet, and simple for the simple. Why then during that time GauridasPandit das wrote a pleading letter to his hero boss Tamal de Gosvami asking him to initiate his wife?! What about the other grave pandit Rupa Vilas, how happened that this hero from the famous video taped ritvik debate with Jayass and co. became infamous traitor and rejoined with the GBC West Bengal inc. party club? What fruits may come from such seeds Amar Puri? You want to make it all easy as your mind dictates, but easy is just to simply follow, which includes the austerity and control of minds demands, the check system without an interpretation, no constant additions, either siksha or diksha to every time the book mentions guru, how dare you to comment in such a way on the acarya’s books?
Amar Puri, the whole ritvik movement is a result of definite confusion. Why otherwise the fathers of the concoction waited ten years with their revelations?
PADA: Because we did not have the documents early on. The May tape did not surface until 1984 when Sulochana bribed a person to get it. We did not get Norman Perle to find out it was spliced until 1997, 20 years later.
The letters did not appear until Sulochana bribed a person to get them as well, and he was killed for posting the letters and forwarding the tapes. Ramesvara said we’d be dead meat on a hook if we published the letters, and Sulochana was killed and we almost were. The documents were being suppressed, at the point of a gun.
The will was not circulated at all. I got the first known copy out of Hansadutta’s safe in 1985, and no one had seen it until I made photocopies of it. And when Hrdayananda found out I was passing out copies, he was not happy at all. Apparently, I was the only person to ever circulate the will at all during that time, no one else had a copy. Tamal’s Topanga conversations, wherein he says there was no guru appointment, the 11 were only ritviks, was forbidden to be discussed, I only got the transcript in 1985 as well.
Did I forget to mention the police saved my life, many times over, and thanks to doing surveillance on me they stopped three goondas from killing me in Berkeley. Then Jarek wonders why these documents were not being openly discussed? Perhaps because, people did not want to have their heads bashed in with aluminum baseball bats, as mine nearly was.
OK! Because anyone discussing them could get killed, hello! The July 9th letter was not posted publicly, few people knew it existed, and when I told people about its existence by 1986, they thought I was making things up. OR? Maybe they did not want to face off with baseball bats as I was doing?
The 1977 conversations were not made public until they were partially printed in 1990, only 1,000 copies because Tamal wanted to suppress them. I had to borrow copies to read them. At all.
In the conversations it discusses the poison issue, but there are no transcripts in those books. So it took me praying to Krishna for 7 years to get the poison tapes, which we got in 1997, 20 years after the fact.
Sorry, all these documents were being suppressed. Of course Jarek still thinks we are all going to run off to worship his live guru, Mr. Cattle Rustler Pada in Moab. How come when me and California did not fall into the ocean in 1980, Mr. Cow Thief has not admitted he was wrong, in 30 years? How come its taking so long for Jarek’s crew to admit the truth? And if worship of Prabhupada is a concoction, how come Jarek still thinks we are all going to run off and worship his mentor, and the author he cites, Mr. dis-appearing Cattle Pada? Yep, Jarek thinks dis-appearing documents, and dis-appearing cows, is some sort of magic trick made by mystic yogis. Nope, its criminals at work. And that is why he loves to use their arguments, well why did you not speak up earlier, uuuuummmm, because, you were killing us?
And why are the TV people talking to me and not Kailash? Because they know he has no credibility. ys pd
Bhakta Jarek: “So far I have read Srila Prabhupada was not recommending to report devotees (they are still “our” men) into so called legal institutions of the karmi world.”
Because ISKCON Warsaw falsely believes Bhakta Jarek is a ritvik they grabbed Bhakta Jarek at his neck and kicked him on the street? Lifelong ban, excommunication? Vaishnava career within ISKCON ruined? Although Bhakta Jarek would repeatedly assert his innocence that he is NOT ritvik?
Bhakta Jarek: This kind of treatment is just fine for me, they are devotees, our men. Plz leave it as it is.
Hmm, whereas those who worship Prabhupada are demons? Sorry, this is pretty much getting weird for me, I’ll have to bow out of here. Thanks, Bh. Jarek, take your medicines and chant Hare Krishna!
Puranjana you must know very well what am I refering to while questioning the ten years ritvik vacancy. Gauridaspandit das swears on how he witnessed and heard allegedly plenty of talks and conversations with Srila Prabhupada on the ritivk topic, Yashodanandana testified in Los Angeles debate how Tamal told him about the ritvik order and showed his famous old fashion type pencil notices as the evidence.
Why then no one’s suggestion was raised by him while the few brave devotees like Pradyumna panditji, Kailasacandra prabhu, mother Jadurani, Ajodya pati and maybe a handful others challenged the 11 kidnappers party during the Mayapur 1978 meeting?
The answer is, since they knew then very well that the initiation via proxies was a time, place and circumstance arrangement for the time while His Divine Grace was physically present on the planet Earth.
Ten years later the devil’s advocate, B.R. Sridhar Swami, who already destroyed GM, and ISKCON, made his final contribution to the total and final destruction of acarya’s mission while declaring the proxy system to be the wish of Srila Prabhupada to continue the sampradaya. So he introduced and established the ritvik concoction in his so call matha, therefore you are in fact his, B.R. Sridhar Swamis worshipers.
My congratulations!
This Sadharan Jiva Bhakta Jarek insists repeatedly when he says ; ” Amar Puri, the whole ritvik movement is a result of definite confusion. ….”.
Confusion is for the confused people. No matter what lies in front of a confused person like yourself in order to remove the confusion because you chose to remain in confusion. It is like blind man refuses to accept the heat and light coming from the SUN and continues arguing endlessly. There is nothing, any body can help you under these circumstances because you chose to remain in the ignorance and totally deceiving not only to yourself but to many others innocent people when you write in your comments that Srila Prabhupada is your living Guru and simultaneously, you refuses and rejects to follow and accept His Initiating Instructions. It is all in your comments. Is it NOT, Bh. Jarek ? That shows that how confused person are you ? Is it not TRUE ?
That is why you are a very dangerous person under the disguise of a devotee, Bhakta Jarek.
It is better for you to go some where else where you can lead and preach your confused message of accepting Srila Prabhupada as a Living Guru and rejects and refuses His system of Initiating Instructions. Thus, you may satisfy your personal ego. That is my humble advice.
Hope you take the heed.
OM TAT SAT.
Srila Prabhupada is a perfect follower of His Guru Maharaja, and he clearly, kindly and logicly explains throught His excelent books and lectures the very same eternal system of reconecting to Krishna through the means of disciplic line of the perfect acaryas, mahajano yena gata sa pantha. No one can create a new system of going back to Krishna, and there is no need for such since the eternal law is perfect. Since your obstinancy in fact you are changing all Prabhupada books, whenever you feel suitable for your agenda you play with the term guru as you like, so let me say clearly it is you who are dangerous and to be avoided or fought you out of the business Amar puri.
Puranjana you must know very well what am I refering to while questioning the ten years ritvik vacancy.
[PADA: You have not addressed the fact that all the documents were hidden, and people who forwarded the documents were being suppressed, and killed. Nor have you explained what was supposed to be done instead? Ever?]
JP: Gauridaspandit das swears on how he witnessed and heard allegedly plenty of talks and conversations with Srila Prabhupada on the ritivk topic, Yashodanandana testified in Los Angeles debate how Tamal told him about the ritvik order and showed his famous old fashion type pencil notices as the evidence.
[PADA: And we have no contact with one another until maybe 1988? I did not know what these devotees knew, and had no idea where they were. There was no internet then. You are trying to re-write history, no one knew about the whole picture, I had a few pieces like the appointment tape and the will, and only a few of us had the 1977 Srila Prabhupada conversations — but we had to wait until 1990 to get that? You are assuming we were all in contact with one another, and we had all the documents at the start, no, there was no internet in those days.]
JP: Why then no one’s suggestion was raised by him while the few brave devotees like Pradyumna panditji, Kailasacandra prabhu, mother Jadurani, Ajodya pati and maybe a handful others challenged the 11 kidnappers party during the Mayapur 1978 meeting?
[PADA: No one had any of these documents at that time. I protested in 1979 simply by saying, Jayatirtha is a drug addict and a womanizer, and I was kicked out. After that, I had a very hard time getting anything, I was ostracized. Of course Kailash later wrote papers to defend the GBC gurus after 1986, after we exposed that the were worshiping molesting of children messiahs.
Why is Jarek supporting the people who supported the child molesters as messiahs program? Is that what Jarek’s real point is, we should have worked with Kailash, and wrote papers to defend the molester messiahs, and defend Kailash like Jarek is doing NOW?
And why does he never tell us, what was ordered instead, rather he cites Kailash, the promoter of the molester messiahs? Why is Jarek always in bed with the promoters of the children molester messiahs programs? And he never tells us what should have been done instead?
Kailash was writing papers for the GBC gurus, sorry we are not in bed with this program, rather Jarek admits he is, because he supports Kailash. That means the Kailash / Jarek program cannot even distinguish homosexual pedophiles from pure devotees, sorry, we can! Because, we do not listen to fools like Kailash, as Jarek admits — he does.]
JP: The answer is, since they knew then very well that the initiation via proxies was a time, place and circumstance arrangement for the time while His Divine Grace was physically present on the planet Earth.
[PADA: The answer is no one had the documents, duh!]
JP: Ten years later the devil’s advocate, B.R. Sridhar Swami, who already destroyed GM, and ISKCON, made his final contribution to the total and final destruction of acarya’s mission while declaring the proxy system to be the wish of Srila Prabhupada to continue the sampradaya.
[PADA: No, Sridhara said we have to worship the GBC gurus, he never said he agreed with the ritvik idea. He gave some passing comment on it towards the end, but it was very confused and so his followers did not adopt it. Kailash is now saying what Sridhara said all along, you need a living guru? And Jarek is supporting Kailash, the Moab messiah of the tarantulas? You are following Sridhara, he was the founder father of the molester messiahs project, and then Kailash wrote papers for them later on, and now Jarek is supporting that team.]
JP: So he introduced and established the ritvik concoction in his so call matha, therefore you are in fact his, B.R. Sridhar Swamis worshipers.
My congratulations!
[PADA: No, we gathered together the documents gradually over time, and then presented them as we got them. Some of them we did not get until 1997, sorry, we simply did not have these documents until much later. ys pd]
*** Bogus appointment tape discussed here: http://youtu.be/D_ogsiUTOa8
*** False documents they were making discussed here: http://youtu.be/DyQ4aBbN5pk
*** We never followed Sridhara: http://youtu.be/oFjove-LKKE
[Jarek / Kailash support BR Sridhara’s living guru idea, they worship BR Sridhara maharaja.]
*** 1997 documents catch up (we still were missing documents by 1997): http://youtu.be/AQgs5uRifpo
PADA: Bottom line, Jarek is never going to tell us what was ordered instead. He has no idea what was ordered instead. And George prabhu is right (see below), Rocana / Jarek / Kailash are saying Srila Prabhupada is bogus and apa-siddhanta, Jarek is stepping over the acharya with these fools. Agreed! ys pd]
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/06/rocana-declares-srila-prabhupada-bogus.html
Simply by reading Srila Prabhupada’s books and adopting step by step what He instructs one can go back to Godhead. This is the future of the Hare Krishna movement. I don’t see myself as the one who may stop the developing momentum of the ritvik or FISKCON guru system heresies or sects, certainly not. Nevertheless it is good to know that there is clear and pure always available way to go back to Krishna and our real self. Any sane person will avoid the confused and motivated groups on account of simply reading the pre 1977 printed books of the Acarya and the result will be soon manifested and clear to the practitioner. We are not the body, we are not the subtle mind or intelligence. The false ego will gradually slacken as we associate and follow the nectar of the acaryas message. No politics and plots needed. However the job done by the brave devotees to debunk the cheaters of FISKCON, to analyze and clear the historical facts as they are may be of great value to those who may be bewildered by the actions of the age of Kali. I want to thank you all for this job done, this includes certainly to some degree Puranjana prabhu, none can denied this fact, but also many many others, some of whom payed high or even the highest price for the truth to come out.
Big, big talks and plans, but actually unless you do something substantial, what is the use? As soon we phone up Prof. Dr. Jarek – sir, sir, where can we find your fully realized uttama mahabhagavat spiritual master? Telephone answering machine says, “The number you have dialed is presently unavailable….”
Right, B.R. Sridhar Swami worked hard to send ISKCON’s rank&file down the wrong path.
When B.R. Sridhar Swami figured the job is done, Prabhupada’s movement is about to collapse, he ordered ritvik for his matha. Today B.R. Sridhar Swami’s disciples rejected his ritvik order. Presently they pose as full-fledged diksa gurus. Of course we don’t hear much about their global spiritual projects. No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff.
All Gaudiya-matha leaders had direct experience how Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja’s movement went down the drain by installing pseudo gurus.
Yet, for years they pushed ISKCON’s rank&file so much so to accept unqualified gurus that by hindsight this all looks like deliberate sabotage.
S.B. 1.2.18 by H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.
PURPORT
“Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical.”
How does a ritvik vadi rewrite/interpret the since revealed in the verse above giving comments of that type: “Big, big talks and plans, but actually unless you do something substantial, what is the use? As soon we phone up Prof. Dr. Jarek — sir, sir, where can we find your fully realized uttama mahabhagavat spiritual master? Telephone answering machine says, “The number you have dialed is presently unavailable….”.
Generally a ritvikvadi says or thinks something like: “One has to undergo formal ritvik initiation, nothing has changed, Srila Prabhupada is here and now, so no book Bhagavat needed since the Bhagavat devotee in person is still here and only fools like the “living guru freaks can’t see it!”
But the Acarya says clearly: “There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. “. Ok, says a ritvikvadi, this all may be, but this is for fools, we are better, we say no discrimination needed, Srila Prabhupada remains the only diksha guru, the only remedy, and no obstacles may be removed otherwise unless one undergoes one of our rites of innovative formal initiation from Srila Prabhupada, indian prunk Bangalore style, or maybe Long Island ISKCON inc. churchianity West type style, as you guys like. Well, but it isn’t what the verse says. Another try?
Bhakta Jarek please read and UNDERSTAND the proper context. DISservice is NOT service.
S.B. 1.2.18 by H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.
Mahesh: ” by rendering of service to the pure devotee” The text states SERVICE NOT (DIS)service. Going against Srila Prabhupada by denying him as CURRENT Diksa guru is DISservice . Denying Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik July 9th 1977 Order is DISservice.
3rd offence in chanting is to DISOBEY the Guru (Srila Prabhupada).
Right, Jarek is reciting Rocana, who says the ritvks are Churchianity. Of course Rocana has been the biggest cheer leader of the CHURCH OF MOLESTER MESSIAHS all along, why is Jarek so attracted to the Church of Molester messiahs, and he is always quoting them? And Rocana was their “reformer” in 1986, when Rocana’s team helped introduce the idea that gurus are voted in, and so on. Why does Jarek recite these fools, who concocted the GBC’s guru voting? And at the same time of the reform, the Rocana reformers reinstated Bhavananada. Why is Jarek quoting the people who reinstate pedophiles as acharyas? And Rocana is still attacking Srila Prabhupada as apa-siddhanta. Why is Jarek working with the people who reinstate pedophiles as acharyas, and are attacking the pure devotees as apa-siddhanta? ys pd
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/06/rocana-declares-srila-prabhupada-bogus.html
Puranjana Prabhu: And Rocana was their “reformer” in 1986, when Rocana’s team helped introduce the idea that gurus are voted in, and so on
Mahesh: Rocana thinks Diksa guru is a CONDITIONED soul. Just see! And the CC gives DIKSA Guru DEFINITION as Mahabhagavata:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
Rocana’s Anti Ritvik comments can mean that he is in the PAYROLL of the BOGUS GBC. This is HOW the BOGUS GBC work. They PAY you to write Anti Ritvik articles – which is an OPEN secret.
Oh confused bewildered Sadharan Jiva, Bhakta Jarek, what category of Bhakta are you ?
Do you read and understand what you write in your own message ?
Is Srila Prabhupada Initiating Instructions not a part and parcel of His written Instructions reconnecting to Krishna through the means of disciplic line of the perfect acarayas, mahajano yena gata s a pantha as you wrote in your comments which read as ; ” Srila Prabhupada is a perfect follower of His Guru Maharaja, and he clearly, kindly and logicly explains throught His excelent books and lectures the very same eternal system of reconecting to Krishna through the means of disciplic line of the perfect acaryas, mahajano yena gata sa pantha.” ?
What type of a perverted personality are YOU ?
You chose to deceive yourself with your FREE WILL . Therefore, go some where else where you can satisfy your own ego of deception by your writing not accepting and obeying the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
You dare to quote Srila Prabhupada and simultaneously deny repeatedly in your writing to accept His Initiating Instructions. That is why you are not only a CHEATER but also a very dangerous Perverted Personality as well.
Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.
What is SOOOOO AMAZING is these ANTI Ritvik PROPAGANDISTS (ANTI PRABHUPADA) folks they THINK they are going to get away with REPLACING Srila Prabhupada the BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU with CONDITIONED souls BOGUS gurus. The living entity is in this JAIL of material world for MANY MANY MANY CREATIONS. These CREATIONS COME AND GO in a CYCLE like seasons come and go. Not ONLY THAT but the living entity goes thru VARIOUS species of life forms numbering 8.4 MILLION. NO WAY these guys are going to ESCAPE with their MONEY SCREWING BUSINESS.
It is A FACT: MONEY SCREWING BUSINESS AND EXPLOITATION OF DEVOTEES MAKING THEM SLAVES TO THE CONDITIONED SOUL ASSES(bogus gurus) in IS_CON.
740806SB.VRN Lectures
Therefore it is said in the Caitanya-caritamrta, nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti. Nitya-siddha means eternally perfect. It is not that we are artificially acquiring this krsna-bhakti. No, it is not artificial. It is natural. This is actual fact. So we are simply… Because our present, in the present material condition, our heart is covered with so much garbage of different types of body… Just like all of a sudden something comes to your mind. It has no connection. Just like a bubble, comes out. BECAUSE SO MANY DIRTY THINGS ARE RESERVED ON ACCOUNT OF OUR MATERIAL CONDITIONAL LIFE FOR MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS. Anadi karama-phale padi’ bhavarnava-jale. Anadi, we cannot… ANADI MEANS… ADI MEANS THE CREATION. SO BEFORE THIS CREATION. BHUTVA BHUTVA PRALIYATE. WE ARE IN THIS MATERIAL CONTAMINATION NOT THAT IN THIS MILLENNIUM–BEFORE THAT. JUST LIKE MILLENNIUM AFTER MILLENNIUM. NARADA MUNI WAS SPEAKING HIS LIFE BEFORE THIS MILLENNIUM. SO ANADI. ANADI MEANS CREATION. BUT NOT ONLY ONE CREATION, SEVERAL CREATIONS, WE ARE FORGOTTEN, OR WE ARE IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha… We are searching after material comfort, material comfort, sense gratification, in so many ways. So anadi karama-phale padi’ bhavarnava-jale, taribare na dekhi upaya. In this way we are going.
SB 1.5.15 P Narada’ s Instructions on Srimad-Bhagavatam for Vyasadeva
Srila Vyasadeva’s compilation of different Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahabharata and other literature is condemned herewith by Srila Narada. The human beings, by long material association, life after life, have a natural inclination, by practice, to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. TO REVOLVE IN THE CYCLE OF TRANSMIGRATION IN A SERIES OF LIVES NUMBERING 8,400,000 IS AN IMPRISONED LIFE FOR THE CONDEMNED CONDITIONED SOULS. THE HUMAN FORM OF LIFE IS A CHANCE TO GET OUT OF THIS IMPRISONED LIFE, AND AS SUCH THE ONLY OCCUPATION OF THE HUMAN BEING IS TO REESTABLISH HIS LOST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, ONE SHOULD NEVER BE ENCOURAGED IN MAKING A PLAN FOR SENSE ENJOYMENT IN THE NAME OF RELIGIOUS FUNCTIONS.
JSD 6.3 Spiritual Advice to Businessmen
In this life I may be a very great businessman, but in my next life, by my karma, I may become something else. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsatih: There are 900,000 forms of life in the water, and 2,000,000 forms of trees and other plants. Then, krmayo rudra-sankhyakah paksinam dasa-laksanam: There are 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and 1,000,000 species of birds. Finally, trimsal-laksani pasavah catur-laksani manusah: There are 3,000,000 varieties of beasts and 400,000 human species. So we must pass through 8,000,000 different forms of life before we come to the human form of life.
Bg 18.58 P Conclusion–The Perfection of Renunciation
One should note very carefully that one who is not active in Krsna consciousness is losing himself in the MATERIAL WHIRLPOOL, IN THE OCEAN OF BIRTH AND DEATH.
Sooooooo to get THE DELIVERER Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA Guru is not ordinary BUT if one WANTS TO SCREW-UP HIS OWN LIFE AND THAT OF OTHERS BY BEING ANTI RITVIK AND SO MISLEAD OTHERS THEN HAVE FUN IN THE MATERIAL WORLD – FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS TO COME IN MANY SPECIES OF LIFE DOGS,HOGS,SNAKES,MONKEYS:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Note: these ANTI RITVIK folks THINK they can DIVIDE AND SCREW Srila Prabhupada’s (PURE BRAHMANA VAISNAVA) properties and money AND GET AWAY. Let them think like that. BUT this is just what WILL happen:
KB 64 The Story of King Nrga
At this time, Lord Krsna was present among His relatives who were members of the ksatriya class. To teach them through the exemplary character of King Nrga, He said: “Even though a ksatriya king may be as powerful as fire, it is not possible for him to usurp the property of a brahmana and utilize it for his own purpose. If this is so, how can ordinary kings, who falsely think of themselves the most powerful beings within the material world, usurp a brahmana’s property? I DO NOT THINK THAT TAKING POISON IS AS DANGEROUS AS TAKING A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY. FOR ORDINARY POISON THERE IS TREATMENT–ONE CAN BE RELIEVED FROM ITS EFFECTS; BUT IF ONE DRINKS THE POISON OF TAKING A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, THERE IS NO REMEDY FOR THE MISTAKE. The perfect example was King Nrga. He was very powerful and very pious, but due to the small mistake of unknowingly usurping a brahmana’s cow, he was condemned to the abominable life of a lizard. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; but the arani fire ignited by the spiritual potency of a brahmana can burn to ashes the whole family of a person who provokes such a brahmana.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “IF SOMEONE EVEN TOUCHES A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, HE IS RUINED FOR THREE GENERATIONS. HOWEVER, IF A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY IS FORCIBLY TAKEN AWAY, THE TAKER’S FAMILY FOR TEN GENERATIONS BEFORE HIM AND FOR TEN GENERATIONS AFTER HIM WILL BE SUBJECT TO RUINATION. On the other hand, if someone becomes a Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will become liberated.”
Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. IF SOMEONE TAKES AWAY THE PROPERTY OF A VERY LIBERAL BRAHMANA WHO IS ENCUMBERED BY A LARGE DEPENDENT FAMILY, THEN SUCH A USURPER IS PUT INTO THE HELL KNOWN AS KUMBHIPAKA; NOT ONLY IS HE PUT INTO THIS HELL, BUT HIS FAMILY MEMBERS ALSO HAVE TO ACCEPT SUCH A MISERABLE CONDITION OF LIFE. A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. Therefore I instruct you, all My boys and relatives present here, do not, even by mistake, take the possession of a brahmana and thereby pollute your whole family. If someone even wishes to possess such property, let alone attempts to take it away by force, the duration of his life will be reduced. He will be defeated by his enemies, and after being bereft of his royal position, when he gives up his body he will become a serpent. A serpant gives trouble to all other living entities. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or cuts you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”
Note: devotees talk of ISKCON reform. The ACTUAL REFORM is to take place: by placing ANTI RITVIK living entity in various species of life forms in MANY MANY CREATIONS to come. If they want to be ANTI SRILA PRABHUPADA DIKSA GURU – let them enjoy their material world. Lord Krsna’s arrangement.
Right, Sulochana said these Rocana types are more foolish than the 11 were. The 11 at least said the guru must be pure, of course they could not keep that standard, but at least the tried to say — that is the standard, the acharya is a pure devotee.
Then Rocana came along down the pike and Rocana said, what is the problem, gurus fall down, gurus are reinstated, gurus need reform, gurus need to be voted in, gurus need to be voted out, gurus engage in illicit sex with men, women and children, and they need reform. And how handy is this, I — Mr. Rocana — am a guru repair man! I am here to fix and repair the sum total of the demigods, because, well, I am higher than the sum total of the demigods, why else?
These people are simply huge egos waiting to find another fool, ok like Jarek, to be their parrots. The pure servants of God need to be repaired, and Rocana is the repair man for the pure servants of God? Rocana thinks Jesus needs advice, and he is going to give that advice, because he is higher than Jesus?
As Sulochana said, that means Rocana thinks the acharya is his personal slave puppet to be reformed and advised by Rocana, and Rocana is thus the self-promoting puppet master of the acharyas. And when Rocana and his team reinstated Bhavananda as their acharya, Suolchana said, having a homosexual pedophile in your parampara is like finding a piece of dog stools in your soup, and when we tried to take the dogs stools out, Rocana put the dogs stools back in.
Which begs the question: why is Jarek in love with these people and he parrots them? Anyway, Rocana’s living guru heros are in more trouble, again! http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/06/bombay-iskcon-being-charged-with-fraud.html ys pd
Amar Puri says:
18. June 2013 at 5:55 pm
AP — What type of a perverted personality are YOU ?
You chose to deceive yourself with your FREE WILL . Therefore, go some
where else where you can satisfy your own ego of deception by your writing
not accepting and obeying the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
You dare to quote Srila Prabhupada and simultaneously deny repeatedly in your
writing to accept His Initiating Instructions. That is why you are not only a
CHEATER but also a very dangerous Perverted Personality as well.
Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.
SG — You are one very very angry little ritvik, aren’t you.? Get over it, Prabhu !
Some of us just followers of Srila Prabhupada are here to stay till death takes us away.
Srila Prabhupada initiating instruction July 9th 1977 letter cannot be followed unless
you interpret it according to desired understanding which the ritviks are famously
doing. Nothing more than a ceremonial ritual registration of new bhaktas into your ritvik
society and then claim yourselves to be disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
The GBC on the other hand claim that their appointed gurus are acting on the liberated
platform as such are pure devotees even though they may actually not yet be liberated.
( Pure devotees who are not yet liberated that’s GBC’s definition of a pure devotee. )
And further say that it should be understood that they are subject to fall from their
position as guru.
So, the GBC has warned those who take initiation from their appointed gurus may end up
without a guru in the course of their devotional service. Their gurus are still subjects
of Maya devi even though they are pure devotees .
Well, at least the GBC is up front about their gurus being subject to fall down.
Take note before one takes initiation from Iskcon gurus. Do not complain later about
being cheated due to one’s ignorance.
HARE KRSNA
The guru is subject to fall from his position — and engage in illicit sex with men, women and children. That is what the GBC says, and this is being honest? To whom? That is not honest because — that is not what Krishna says.
Krishna is also honest — and He says, He will send these false gurus to the most obnoxious regions of the universe, lock them up there, and throw away the key. I think that is the only truly honest assessment here. So we are with Krishna on that issue.
As for us Prabhupadanugas, we say what Krishna says: He and His gurus are not subject to fall. So we are therefore with Krishna on this issue. This is what He says — acaryam mam vijaniyan [SB 11.17.27], one should know the acharya to be as good as My very self.
That means the acharyas are as pure as He is, and that means — anyone who is not pure, is not His acharya. Period. Thats what Krishna says, it does not matter what anyone else says, He is the final authority, not others.
So when the GBC says gurus fall down, they are in illusion, and they are destined to the lowest destinations. As for the Rocana / GBC / Reformers party, well they all said in 1986 that gurus are falling and they need reform, that means, gurusuh narah matih naraakah sah, they have a mundane idea of guru, so they are going to — narakah. Narakah sah actually translates, they are already residents of hell. The pure devotee does not need any advice from any man, God, animal, demigod and so on, that is what Srila Prabhupada says, much less he needs advice from fools like Rocana and others. So Krishna is the standard, He says all these people are in hell, already. ys pd
WOW ……. My questions which were put forward to bewildered Sadharan Jiva Bhakta Jarek in my comments is simply answered pervertedly by an other perverted personality SG who writes ;
” SG — You are one very very angry little ritvik, aren’t you.? Get over it, Prabhu ! ”
It is chewing the chewed as HDG. Srila Prabhupada has said many times because of the conditioned Jivas repeatedly refuses and rejects the Initiating Instructions of the Founder – Acaraya Srila Prabhupada while these perverted personalities like SG and Bhakta Jarek accepts as quoted ; ” Some of us just followers of Srila Prabhupada are here to stay till death takes us away.” And yet the same Perverted personality disagree simaltanously when he writes further in his comments which reads ; ” Srila Prabhupada initiating instruction July 9th 1977 letter cannot be followed unless you interpret it according to desired understanding which the ritviks are famously doing. ”
This is a PERVERTED writings which invokes the false EGOS of these Perverted Personalities like SG and Bhakta Jarek and co. in order to get misled on account of their refusal and rejection to the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
I find the key words in SG writings ” desired understanding ” . For those who refuses to accept and follow the Initiating System of Srila Prabhupada are very much desirous to interpret it to the best ability to best suit their agenda where as those of US who accept and try to follow the system as it is do not need at all the interpretation of the crystal clear Instructions given by our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada. That is the difference and that is where the problem lies.
That is why I wrote in reply to SG in my last comments else where in this post that IT is indeed a waste of my time to further discuss on this issue.
Hope it meets well.
Hari BOL.
Amar puri I wonder how much time you wasted to produce your empty arguments, of all the waste time/waste my time phrases used in this particular issue you are the best user and thus a best time waster, my congratulations
Amar Puri says:
In this case, no body can help you and your comments are worthless merely waste of time.
25. May 2013 at 9:52 pm
Amar Puri says:
Therefore, I find it simply a waste of my time.
2. June 2013 at 7:41 pm
Amar Puri says:
Therefore, please rest assured that there is no further discussion from me because it is simply a waste of my time.
4. June 2013 at 3:21 am
Amar Puri says:
If you deny in any shape or form and refuse to accept this Order of Ritvik Initiation of Srila Prabhupada, then, you are not following the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada, and thus you do not accept the present VAPU in his VANI. It is that simple. In this case, no body can help you and your comments are worthless merely waste of time.
25. May 2013 at 9:52 pm
Amar Puri says:
Therefore, I find it simply a waste of my time.
2. June 2013 at 7:41 pm
Amar Puri says:
Therefore, please rest assured that there is no further discussion from me because it is simply a waste of my time.
4. June 2013 at 3:21 am
Amar Puri says:
Thus I have said that it is waste of my time even to argue with you BUT finally to make my point across to you and all the READERS here on this forum.
OM TAT SAT.
5. June 2013 at 9:07 pm
Amar Puri says:
That is why I wrote in reply to SG in my last comments else where in this post that IT is indeed a waste of my time to further discuss on this issue.
19. June 2013 at 4:30 am
Bh. Jarek figures this is kind of fun here – something like shadow boxing.
Therefore he sticks to his guns, won’t let up.
Usually, when finding out the truth that Prabhupada never appointed failures like Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, Harikesha, Tamal Krishna, Bhagavan, Satsvarupa, etc. to be next jagat-guru acarya folks like Bh. Jarek immediately quit for good. Are never seen again.
They figure this whole occurrence is so outrageous, so mad, that in no way they want to have anything to do with ISKCON anymore. Of course there are those who make their living by staying within ISKCON, but this is another story.
There has to be a more efficient consensus how to deal with this issue. People in general simply reject both parties.
In Western University towns – centers of learning – Vaishnava temples are empty. Meanwhile intelligent Westerners reject Vaishnava institutions – they seem suspicious to them. They don’t see Vaishnavism as an asset for Western society. Prabhupada wanted nationwide exemplary farms, restaurants, varnasram projects were people find engagement, purpose in life, shelter.
Projects that make Vaishnavism favored, liked by the people. Unfortunately this did not happen. Presently Westerners conclude that Hare Krishnas simply want to take without giving anything in return.
Agreed, Prabhupada also pointed out that Krishna consciousness is like a medicine, it is not flattering false ego but attacking materialistic society.
Prabhupada: “So actually, we are not very favorable to their propaganda. (laughs) They don’t like us, the leaders.” (Geneva, June 6, 1974)
So what can be done, present ISKCON is infested by questionable gurus who meanwhile recruited a new generation of 160,000 staunch followers.
Living gurus, who – believe it or not – made 160,000 disciples(!) – what is all of Bh. Jarek’s hysterical crying – but still Bh. Jarek won’t rejoin! What can be done? Who can produce relief for this poor devil – to put things right?
I am not having fun here, i do however like to debunk liars, of which Amar puri may be the best here. Since for me sharing my deepest convictions is never a waste of time, nor joke dear boy. Lying constitutes the spirit of the ritvik vada heresy, and it shows up when we carefully study your pompatic declarations which making is so boring to your adamant follower Amar puri, but also Balarama used this phrase some time other here rarely but also, it is all meaningful guys, and I watch carefully those small funny things in you. Our point is that there can’t be anybody self-made or anything spiritual self-made, this is what Srila Prabhupada says every time possible. There is nothing like self-made guru, but logically and certainly nothing like a self-made ritvik priest! Even if the ritvik so called order was true in the sense you want it to be, then the only authorised link in you imaginary in fact idea could only be Hansadutta, one of the original 11 ritviks! Ok. I know, I understand, I also wouldn’t like to accept him for quite some reasons. So in such a way your Final Order dream would end, for normal truthful people of course since the line of authorisation would end up here, and none of you for let’s say ethical or other fine purposes does not like to revive their last original Hansadutta branch. But it is not so for the natural born spiritual reformers, i.e. manufacturers, “let us made our own ritvik priests, millions of them for our dear guru”! And so you have your self-made rascal priest or simply saying a cheater. Nothing can be self-made! In this way you are merely the opposite site of/to the FisKcon showbottle, who is made by the GBC inc. of West Bengal hand voted-in guru doll, plus hindu hodge podge followers.
Bhakta: Jarek: “Lying constitutes the spirit of the ritvik vada heresy”
This statement clearly says that you do not know what is a ritvik. You might have gotten wrong information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCON_Guru_System . A ritvik is never self-made. Ritviks officiate for a certain span of time and are either re-elected or deselected. As soon a ritvik deviates he is replaced. Of course when Prabhupada was physically present he himself would appoint his ritviks.
Hansadutta: His Divine Grace said, “You are a suitable person and you can give initiation to those who are ready for it. I have selected you among eleven men as “rittvik” or representative of the acharya, to give initiations, both first and second initiation, on my behalf.” A newsletter is being sent to all Temple Presidents and GBC in this regard, listing the eleven representatives selected by His Divine Grace. Those who are initiated are the disciples of Srila Prabhupada, and anyone who you deem fit and initiate in this way, you should send their names to be included in Srila Prabhupada’s ” Initiated Disciples” book. In this way the Temple Presidents will send their recommendations for initiation direct to the nearest representative who will give a spiritual name or chant on the Gayatri thread just as Srila Prabhupada has been doing.
http://www.harekrsna.org/pada/documents/ritvik-truth.htm
Jarek is still calling us liars, and that is what his heroes Rocana / Kailash team have said all along, we are liars. And so for example, when I said — there is a mass molesting program going on — then the bogus GBC’s gurus / their cheer leaders like Rocana’s “guru reformers” / Jarek’s other messiah Kailash — [who was writing papers to defend the GBC’s gurus] — they all said, this main is a liar.
And the result of calling us liars was — and is — thousands of children were molested.
Good job Jarek’s team! Yep, your party called us liars all along, and the result was — people were being banned, beaten, molested and assassinated as a result of your branding us as liars to discredit us, and to foment attacks on us. That’s how you fanatics got our people killed, saying we are liars and offenders. Yep, nothing has changed since 1978, we had the Jarek’s ilk out there saying we were liars then, and ever since then, they have learned nothing since 1978. ys pd
Here is a description of a post samadhi ritvik initiation process from a ritvik
initiated devotee quote,
“Everything was as how Srila Prabhupada instructed in July 9th Directive.
We had to first write a test for 200 marks and to pass this test we had to score
minimum 150 marks (By Srila Prabhupada’s mercy I scored 198; question paper was
little easy). After we pass in the test, we are interviewed by our Group Coordinator
(We have a very nice and well organized Krishna Ashraya Program in temple).
Once the group-coordinator’s interview is cleared, we then go for an interview with
the Temple President. And once the Temple President is satisfied, he recommends the
candidates for the initiation. All these processes are basically to test the candidates
that whether they can keep up to the standards enshrined by Srila Prabhupada.
Then the candidates attend the grand initiation ceremony. We all were made to sit in
front of the Deities and Srila Prabhupada’s altar. One by one we vowed in front of
Srila Prabhupada for chanting 16 rounds everyday and following the four regulative
principles throughout our lives. Then our names were announced by the Temple President.
My name is Agrani Krishna Dasa meaning the servant of Krishna who guides His devotees back to His Supreme abode. And some other names were Annapurna Devi Dasi, Amalabhakta Anjaneya Dasa, Urjita Krishna Dasa, Srikara Govinda Dasa, Nakula Dasa, Nirantara Radha Devi Dasi, Narakesari Dasa, etc. After hearing our name we had to pick our malas which were chanted upon by the ritviks. After that Vaishnava homa and guru-dakshina – this made our initiation process complete.”
Its not really as per the “July 9th Directive”, is it?
HARE KRSNA
Dear Readers,
Hare Krishna.
Yes indeed it is very TRUE that I did write many times that it is a waste of time to discuss this issue with a person like Bhakta Jarek and SG who admits openly that Srila Prabhupada is their Living Guru and simultaneously they refuse and reject the Initiating Instructions of the same very Living Guru who says that He is the Spiritual Master in the Institution of World Wide Iskcon and gives His Particular Initiating Instructions how to conduct while He is Present or Absent to which these PERVERTED personalities like SG and Bhakta Jarek refuse to accept and follow through. Thus, these Perverted personalities out of their EGOS chose to distract and introduce INTERPRETATION with their desired understanding as SG writes to protect and promote their respective agenda all in the name of following Srila Prabhupada.
That is very very very DANGEROUS. That is what I have pointed out in my remarks despite the fact that I did write that it is a waste of my TIME in order to expose these Perverted people out there. That I have proved it in my comments based on what these perverted people have written in their comments. That is my only purpose to write and expose these Perverted / Stubborn,/ Egoistic people who says that they are following Srila Prabhupada BUT yet refuse and reject the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada in order to promote their agenda. That is a CHEATING.
So in order to stop this CHEATING all of US who are trying to follow and OBEY the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada I/We the followers have to be vigilant at all time in order to protect the INSTRUCTIONS – VANI of HDG. Srila Prabhupada and expose out all the CHEATERS who are in the dress of Devotees / Bhaktas like SG and Bhakta Jarek who are anti-Ritivik which means NOT obeying the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada. That is the DANGER.
That is the reason I wrote that it is a waste of time to discuss with these Stubborn / Egoistic / Perverted Personalities like SG and Bhakata Jarek.
Hope it finds you all well.
OM TAT SAT.
Yes it finds me very well Amar puri. I do not write Amar puri das, since if this name of yours is given by the concocted so called initiation than it is a result of an offence to the acarya. If you happened to be initiated by FisKcon so called guru than you are also not a “das”, rather an ass, and in a case you have been initiated properly, it means by a real Guru than you are slowly but surely losing the right to call you a “das” anyway because of promoting and supporting a sahajiya cult. So once again, I am well, and enjoy all nonsense you write, an easy way to learn how maya works. In a sense it is a real wonder Amar puri, at least i do not feel to waste my time. Thank you.
The bottom line is that we have a program and its moving forward, whereas Rocana / Kailash and their clones like Bhakta Jarek have no visible programs. So they are not recognized as valid and / or relevant to the situation because; they cannot do anything practical to apply their idea. And so no one cares what their idea is because, it has no practical application. Simply barking at the Moab moon, with the coyotes, no one cares about them. And that is why their rhetoric is getting so strident these days. Rocana / Kailash / Jarek have no substance, its all bluff and has been all along. Our “back to Prabhupada” idea is growing, whereas their back to Moab process, well, not so much. ys pd
In fact our knowledge on the neokarthabaja revival movement is much advanced now than before due to Rocana prabhus seriousness, the thing completely strange to notorious liar and scammer Poorjana and his cohorts. Generally it is offensive to throw pearls before swine, but I take the burden nevertheless. This argument is however only for those who are not yet fully afflicted and maddened with the disease which spreads all over under the insidious banner of so call “Prabhupadanugas”. The argument is absolutely perfect and free from any useless talk, certainly after understanding it one will be free from wasting his time with this tumor likeneokarthabaj sahajiya distasteful doubletalks. I want to apologise to Srila Prabhupada for actually falsely using imprecisely the term ritvik in context of the July 9 letter. In that letter the 11 proxy priests are called “rittik representatives” whereas in the 28 may famous coversation the spelling shows usage of the term “ritvik acaryas” in regard to the future initiations. Rocana prabhu took his time and checked the wording meticulously precise with the scientific tools. I do not doubt that our Poorjanis will reject all this but only fools will follow such blind and unscrupulous men, but this is like spiritual suicide. For those who want to live for ever in peace with Lord Sri Krishna;http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-13/editorials9804.htm
After all I will also propose to stop incorrect usage of the term “ritviks” and fully replace it with the term “The July 9 sahajiyas”. Using vedic terms inappropriately is also offensive when done as a result of idleness, or out of frivolous egoistic attitude in the mode of darkness or ignorance.
Bh. Jarek: Generally it is offensive to throw pearls before swine….
We gave Bhakta Jarek ample opportunity to discuss his concern that a genuine spiritual master has to be physically present. However, things are getting repetitive. Bhakta Jarek’s agenda – led by Rocana dasa /Kailash dasa – presented themselves as gentleman-like Vaishnava scholars.
When being asked who is their living – fully realized, fully authorized by previous acarya – spiritual master, dialogue quickly ends up with kicks below the belt (see above).
Bhakta Jarek agreed that there is presently no genuine guru available: “….but in future mahabhagavats might take birth”.
Although this is vague, soap-bubble and Bhakta Jarek is well aware that nobody is against a physically present pure devotee spiritual master, he’s using words like liar, swine and strange cohorts for those who consider Prabhupada as current link to Krishna’s parampara system.
At this point there is no further need to extend this discussion with followers of Rocana / Kailash since their proof of a bona fide living guru is not born yet – we have to be patient.
Meanwhile Bhakta Jarek might write articles at his mentor’s website “Sampradaya Sun”. Of course when their bona fide pure acarya baby is born we will post a birth announcement and wish the child all the best.
If there are further questions, discussion might be continued at private forum.
Right, Rocana is Jarek’s authority (when he is not citing the Moab messiah Kailash). And Rocana was one of the barking dogs supporters of the 11 as acharyas, who said we were fools not to. After the Rocana /Jarek’s program’s 11 acharyas started to have break downs, Rocana declared himself to be the self appointed acharya repair man and he was going to repair and “reform” his bogus acharyas, whom he installed by his ignorance of guru tattva.
And his reformers repair job included reinstating Bhavananda and excommunicating us, which resulted in Sulochana’s murder and so on. Meanwhile, thousands of kids were getting molested under the Rocana / GBC 11 gurus.
In sum, Jarek is still with the people who supported the 11 as acharyas, and who think acharyas are psychotic idiots who have paranoid delusions, and they need psychotic evaluations from Rocana. Jarek is with the GBC’s guru program. Has been and always will be. And there is no accountability here.
Rocana suported the 11, and the result was — thousands of kids were molested, people were murdered, ISKCON went into a criminal tail spin. Rocana said he was going to fix that, by voting in another wave of fools as acharyas. Yes, Jarek is stuck on stupid with this group. At least he admits that he is, thats the only good news we have so far. Jarek admits he is with the cheer leaders and reformers of the bogus gurus. Jarek is, in sum, aligned with the enforcers of “the enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophile messiahs club,” he is now emerging as their chief cheer leader. Got it! ys pd