F-Iskcon so called diksa-gurus go for Guru Training! MUST READ!

“This meeting is technically called “Spiritual leadership seminar” but more commonly known as “Being a guru in ISKCON” or the guru training seminar. It is taught by Hanuman Prabhu and Annutama Prabhu and I will be doing these seminars for the next 4 days […]

Sometimes I have heard devotee’s sort of raise there eyes or make some comments about what sort of thing is a guru’s seminar or guru training?
Because the implication is that a guru is supposed to know everything that they are automatically self realised souls.”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

“The bizarre and twisted world of the unauthorised rubberstamped guru system which has been foisted on Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON movement continues to stumble on into greater depths of absurdity. The latest gem was announced on an ISKCON website […] So yes, actually I am your self-realised, bona-fide “as-good-as- God” guru, who will take you directly back to Krishna, by acting as a perfect transparent via medium. But before I do, can I please just first go on this training course, so I can remind myself what I am supposed to do, and how I should do it?! This reminds us of the mayavadi (impersonalist) philosophy where all of us are actually supposed to be Brahman, or God. And though, unfortunately, Brahman has currently fallen into illusion, he just needs to remind himself that actually he is God, and then everything will be fine again!”

The diksa or initiating guru, must possess the highest level of qualification:

“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamtra, Madhya-lila, 24.330, purport)

Guru training for expert in vedic literature = maha-bhagavata = diksa-guru= saksad Hari = as good as god!? WHAT??

“… You are correct when you say that when the Spiritual Master speaks it should be taken that Krishna is speaking. That is a fact. A SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE LIBERATED…”
(69-06-10. Srila Prabhupada letter to Mukunda)

Spiritual master understands Krsna perfectly.

“…Because ONE WHO HAS UNDERSTOOD KRSNA PERFECTLY… THIS IS THE QUALIFICATION OF GURU.”
( SP 740810SB.VRN )

Bona-fide “as-good-as- God” guru ( saksad-Hari) = need guru-training, that means that it is the same like when Krishna need God-Training??!!

“… There are three classes of devotees according to the degree of conviction. The first-class devotee is conversant with all kinds of
Vedic literature and at the same time has the firm conviction mentioned above. He can deliver all others from the pangs of material miseries….”
( Teachings of Lord Caitanya 11)

“One should not become a Spiritual Master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.”
(Nectar of Instruction, Text 5, purport)

“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa vidhana.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)

NOTE:  “who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa vidhana.” ( NOT BY GBC !! )

And yes, according to the philosophy given to us by Srila Prabhupada, the guru is supposed to automatically be a self-realised soul. This is the most basic teaching given right in the beginning of the Bhagavada Gita:

” Therefore, the conclusion is that a spiritual master who is one hundred percent Krsna conscious is the bona fide spiritual master, for he can solve the problems of life.” (BG, 2:8)

Note:
Consequently, even if one is determined to have an unauthorised guru system, at the very least let people FIRST go to “Guru school” to learn how to become a guru, become self-realised, and THEN act as Guru. Currently they are doing it back to front – FIRST they are becoming gurus, taking disciples, and then going to “guru school” to learn how to become a guru. This is a characteristic of Kali-Yuga, the current age of hypocrisy and quarrel, that everything is automatically “topsy-turvy” or back to front:

“Therefore, by the influence of the age of Kali, everywhere, politically, socially or religiously, everything is topsy-turvy, and therefore for the sane man it is all regrettable.”
(SB, 1:16:22)

Next joke:

Sivarama Swami:

“Anutama Prabhu and Hanuman. […] They do the training and presentation, I am favourably impressed. […] My expectation though is that i see that we have a good seminar for training gurus. For qualifying them for giving them association for raising their consciousness and for having an interaction which our Krishna consciousness movement is all about. […] Here are the concise aims of the course.

1. the role and identity of the guru

4. the guru disciple relationship

7. life management and the demands of being a guru, life management means health and things like that as well as travel

8. spiritual health and avoiding fall down”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

NOTE: Spiritual health and avoiding fall down !!

We know it in Iskcon that “bona fide acaryas” do not have to be so advanced because sometimes they fall down. It is said!

Srila Prabhupada states the precise opposite:

“A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord.”
(Bg. 4.42, purport)
“God is always God, Guru is always Guru.”
(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

NOTE: Guru is always guru? Like KRISHNA IS ALWAYS KRISHNA !
Therefore a real guru need NEVER an so called “Guru-and leadership-seminar”! Or need Krishna an how to become God-Seminar?

“Well if he is bad, how can he become a guru?”
(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

NOTE: And why need a real guru an so called “Spiritual leadership guru seminar” ??? Because if he is bad, how can he become a guru?

“The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence.”
(S.B. 5.3.14)

“There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down.”
(C.c. Madhya, 22.71)

“A spiritual master is always liberated.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamal Krishna, 21/6/70)

NOTE: Always liberated means, he need NEVER an Guru-training!!

“On the whole you may know that he (Bon Maharaja) is not a liberated person, and therefore he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness. It requires special benediction from higher authorities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

Note:
Maybe special benediction from rubber-stamping bogus Guru-training camp??

“Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance […] So to summarize the whole thing, it is to be understood that a bona fide Spiritual Master is a resident of Krishna Loka.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, June 10th, 1969)

A resident of Krishna-Loka a nitya-siddha Vaisnava need guru-training?

How degenerate is the Kali Yuga? My God! Jesus-Maria!! Yasoda and Krishna!!

Having earlier quoted Srila Prabhupada stating that the spiritual master is the one who can solve the problems of life by being completely Krishna conscious, we now have the ludicrous situation of the ” LIBERATED” spiritual master actually needing to have his own problems in life solved first by being instructed by non-gurus!

“Non-Gurus = Anutama Prabhu and Hanuman. […] They do the training and presentation, I am favourably impressed….”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

PLEASE AGAIN:

Sivarama Swami:

“Anutama Prabhu and Hanuman. […] They do the training and presentation, I am favourably impressed. […] My expectation though is that i see that we have a good seminar for training gurus. For qualifying them for giving them association for raising their consciousness and for having an interaction which our Krishna consciousness movement is all about. […] Here are the concise aims of the course.

1. the role and identity of the guru

4. the guru disciple relationship

7. life management and the demands of being a guru, life management means health and things like that as well as travel

8. spiritual health and avoiding fall down”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

Note:
Non-gurus need to tell the “self-realised” guru what their “role” as a guru is, what the relationship with their disciples should be, how to manage their life, and how to have good spiritual health and avoid falling down! Everything we would expect the spiritual master to know perfectly if he is actually a bona fide spiritual master, and indeed instruct us about. Now HE must first himself go and learn it from non-gurus! UNBELIVABLE JOKE ! But it is not a joke !

Even to run an unauthorised rubberstamping guru system as ISKCON currently has – it makes sense learning all this FIRST, getting ”trained” as a guru FIRST, becoming “qualified” and having one’s “consciousness raised” FIRST, knowing the art of “avoiding fall down” FIRST – and THEN actually becoming a so called GBC 2/3 hand vote rubber-stamp guru.

The elderly Indian sannyasis of rival institutions to ISKCON are rubbing their hands in glee as they see the joke the ISKCON guru institution has become. They can proudly advertise – “our gurus do not need to go to guru school – they already know how to be guru!” – and the exodus from ISKCON to rival groups will continue. Even if one had deliberately set out to make ISKCON a joke it would be harder to do a better job that is currently being done by the GBC.

Aindra Prabhu:

“It is not that Srila Prabhupada‘s sankirtana mission precludes the prospects of pursuing the path of raga, nor is it that legitimate institutional leadership is the monopolized prerogative of the religio-corporate power elites and ecclesiastically rubberstamped guru figureheads.

We cannot rubberstamp paramahamsas!

Indeed, as only the maha-bhagavata truly has the fitness to bestow suddha-nama upon anyone, without receiving which a disciplic candidate could hardly hope to make much tangible spiritual progress in this age of Kali, it is the paramahamsa maha-bhagavata alone who viably stands as a comprehensive representative of all our Srila Prabhupada and the acarya-parampara have to offer.

We must always remember – It is not that authority constitutes truth. Truth constitutes authority. That is guru-parampara !

They who prefer to bend, water down, compromise, or obscure the truth to suit various inveigling materially conceived managerial agenda on the plea of propagating the Krishna consciousness movement are not truthful Brahmins, what then of being paramahamsa Vaishnavas.”
(His Holiness Aindra Prabhu in his book : The heart of transcendental book distribution”)

Sivarama Swami:

“these are some of the notes that I wrote down about what I envisaged would be the ideal situation of a guru,” […] all gurus are accountable to a leader within ISKCON’s managerial hierarchy which means that they are under a leader they are subordinate. […] that gurus have no projects or services just because they are gurus. They have them because of the particular service that they have in the society which isn’t established individually by them but which is assessed and authorised by ISKCON’s leadership.[ …] they are regularly assessed for sadana, service and health. And maybe recommended to stop initiations temporarily, permanently and start initiating and so on. So siksa gurus and diksa gurus […] they should be learned that they should know the philosophy.”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

“Srila Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social, and ecclesiastical conventions. ”
(CC (BBT 1975) Adi 1.35)

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT:

„The GBC is the highest ecclesiastical body guiding ISKCON.“
(Back To Godhead)!!

Sivarama Swami here claims that an ideal guru would be one:

a) who is subordinate to some other leader;
b) who can only have services that others have given them
c) who is regularly assessed on his sadhana and service
d) who can be recommended to stop and start and initiating as required
e) who should be learned and know the philosophy

Sivarama Swami thus claims that real gurus saksad Hari , on same platform like Krishna should actually be controlled like a DOG or a ritvik-priest – that is nothing more than a functionary under a GBC management body.

But this is a real diksa-guru:

“As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected.”
(C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport)

“Therefore the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Isvara Puri ( real guru) is not subjected to any Vedic rules and regulations”
(C.c. Madhya, 10.137)

NOTE: How can it be , that an real guru , who is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations and not subjected to any Vedic rules and regulations , like saksad hari, that such great acarya is subordinate to some other leader or GBC or can only have services that others have given them or need to learn philosophy……??

Whereas everyone is supposed to be subordinate to the guru, Sivarama Swami claims the guru himself must be subordinate to managers……Crazy !

Whereas the guru is supposed to give others service, Sivaram Swami claims the guru himself should be given service by this management body, which could in theory contain his disciples.

Whereas the guru should be vigilant to ensure his disciples are chanting their rounds, according to Sivaram Swami it is the guru that must be checked by the management body (GBC) to see that he is doing basic things such as chanting his rounds and also the management body will decided when and how he can initiate. Who is actually the guru ? GBC is more like guru……more like God, more like Krishna ? !

GBC dictatorship condemned

“GBC members are simply to see that things are going on. Other centers have got president, secretary, etc. and they are managing separately. That is the formula. So how is it that the GBC are the final authority? They are simply to examine that things are going on nicely, that is all.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 9th, 1971)

“GBC does not mean to control a center. GBC means to see that the activities of a center go on nicely. I do not know why Tamala is
exercising his absolute authority. That is not the business of GBC. […] GBC is to see that things are going nicely but not to exert absolute authority. That is not in the power of GBC. Tamala should not do like that […] A GBC member cannot go beyond the jurisdiction of his power.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, August 12th, 1971)

This is not the definition of a diksa guru given by Srila Prabhupada, nor did Srila Prabhupada set this example for how a diksa guru should operate. Rather it is exactly how the ritvik-priest that Srila Prabhupada appointed to conduct initiation formalities on his behalf were supposed to be managed. Sivarama Swami justifies his guru position by claiming that whenever Srila Prabhupada said “become guru” he meant he and others should become gurus like Srila Prabhupada = Diksa-Guru-Acarya , and not just siksa gurus or ritviks. But in practise we see that due to the ISKCON guru system failing, Sivarama Swami is trying to turn the gurus into ritviks without admitting it, whilst at the same time aggressively calling for the punishment for those who actually preach that in ISKCON the so-called ‘gurus’ are actually supposed to be ritviks!

Hypocrisy – another key characteristic of Kali-yuga, the age in which we live.

NOTE: Ritviks or REPRESENTATIVES OF ACARYA ARE SASTRA CONFIRMED AN THEREFORE ABSOLUT AUTHORIZED:

“In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVES for at least six months to a year.”
(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport, emphasis added)

Next proof/evidence after the 9th July 1977 Final Order:

“Now you have a very good field. Now organize it and it will be a great credit. No one will disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.”
(Śrīla Prabhupāda to Hansadutta : July 31, 1977)

“I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly to you, you do it. Your first duty is to do that, you cannot argue – “Sir you said to me do like this before”, no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, that is obedience you cannot argue.”
(Srila Prabhupada S.B. Lecture, 14/4/75, Hyderabad)

As a general point, later instructions from the guru will always supersede previous instructions; the final order is the final order, and must be followed:

Just as in the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna gave so many instructions to Arjuna, he spoke of all types of yoga from Dhyana to Jnana, but all this was superseded by the final order:

“Always think of Me and become My devotee”- should be taken as the final order of the Lord and should be followed.”
(Teachings of Lord Caitanya, chapter 11)

The final order given by Sankaracarya,”bhaja Govinda”, was also meant to supersede many of his earlier statements – all of them, in fact. As mentioned in the introduction, the GBC itself recognises this as an axiomatic principle of logic:

“In logic, later statements supersede earlier ones in importance.” (GBC Handbook, p. 25)

It is not possible to have a “later” statement than the last one.

And finally Sivarama Swami states that ideally all gurus should “be learned and know the philosophy”. Again, pardon us me stating the obvious, but why not let them become learned and know the philosophy” FIRST, before they masquerade as being self-realised souls who can impart the philosophy and learning to others?

“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.”
(BG 4.34)

As we said at the end of the last point, it seems as if someone is determined to convince everyone that ISKCON and their gurus are just one big joke. SORRY but this is the truth and not a offence!

This joke of degeneration System is the real offence compared to the real Parampara of FULL LIBERATED ACARYAS!

4 years befor Srila Prabhupada’s ritvik-appointment May 28, 1977 ISKCON Governing Board Commission (GBC) meeting. :

“My Dear [Disciple 1], Please accept my blessings. Just now I have received some more requests for giving first initiation… and now I am receiving weekly not less than ten to fifteen such requests from new students. So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads such a long distance, and it has become a little bothersome for me also, so I think now you may be appointed by me to give first initiations to new disciples by chanting on their beads on my behalf. In America [Disciple 2] is doing that. So now if there are two of you, that will give me great relief. [Disciple 2] will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that; you can chant on the beads for the European continent, new disciples. They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting.”
(SP Letter, January 4, 1973)

Sivarama Swami:
“Negative experiences; the first one was of gurus within Iskcon, diksa gurus particularly becoming almost a, not a, parallel independent institutions unto themselves. They were setting up their own projects on the basis of being guru and managing funds outside of the accounting of the society and mobilising devotee’s and the manpower to the detriment of established yatras. The effect of that to me is to start worrying whether ISKCON is actually going to survive as 1 unified society as Shrila Prabhupada envisaged it. Or whether it just becomes a federation of many independent entities really just doing their own thing and
obviously such a federation will sooner or later crack.”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

Sivaram Swami here has simply woken up to what the Prabhupadanugas has been saying for many years:

“So today we have over 70 different Guru cults all vying for a piece of the ISKCON pie. […] Most of these Gurus are satisfied simply with expanding their own Guru cults.”

Sivaram Swami is finally seeing the reality of having 71 parallel authority structures which Srila Prabhupada never authorised – 70 gurus + a GBC. Such a system can never work, not being authorised by Srila Prabhupada and also by definition unnatural. You cannot on the one hand preach a philosophy which states that the Guru is absolute, and further that the disciple must see him as such, and at the same time also state that he is not absolute and a disciple’s allegiance should first be to the yatra rather than his absolute guru. Srila Prabhupada’s system was actually very simple – he alone is the absolute authority, with every one only his disciple, and the GBC only able to execute and manage his directives. Nothing more, and nothing less. This system is not only the authorised system, but it also worked from 1966 until 1977, and would also work now as long as we had GBCs interested in simply implementing Srila Prabhupada’s directives unchanged, rather than becoming unauthorised gurus themselves (virtually all of the GBCs are also diksa gurus).

 

 

GBC’s guru programme condemned

“Our mission is to serve bhakta-visesa and live with devotees. Not that you take the place of the guru. That is nonsense, very dangerous. Then everything will be spoiled. As soon as you become ambitious to take the place of guru—gurusu nara-matih. That is the material disease.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, April 20th, 1977)

 

“Now has the GBC become more than Guru Maharaja? As if simply GBC is meant for looking after pounds, shilling, pence. The GBC does not look after spiritual life. That is a defect.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, November 10th, 1975)

 

Future GBC destruction of ISKCON predicted

“What will happen when I am not here, shall everything be spoiled by GBC? So for the time being, let the GBC activities be suspended until I thoroughly revise the whole procedure.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, April 11th, 1972)

 

“I made the GBC to give me relief, but if you do like this, then where is the relief. It is anxiety for me. This is the difficulty, that as
soon as one gets power, he becomes whimsical and spoils everything.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, September 12th, 1974 )
“I am training some of my experienced disciples how to manage after my departure. So if instead of taking the training, if in my lifetime you people say I am the Lord of all I survey, that is dangerous conspiracy.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, October 8th, 1974)

Sivarama Swami:

“And the other one is guru fall down that is a negative experience and I know that by Prabhupadas disciples falling away from the process of Krishna consciousness it really made inspiring devotee’s to lose faith who have lost their own guru’s to live simply and austerely very, very difficult and to actually convince devotees that yes this Krishna consciousness does work and they can go back to Godhead instead of worrying that if my guru didn’t make it then how can I make. Trying to convince them that in spite of these odds you can still make it, is not easy, but in any case.”
(This is an analysis of a Podcast made on 15/10/2008 by Sivarama Maharaja)

Note:
Sivaram Swami here has also woken up to another reality which has been preached for years by the Prabhupadanugas – that having a false unauthorised guru system which does not work will simply bring the whole movement into disrepute, with the tragic result that devotees will actually doubt the process of Krishna consciousness itself. The solution is not to try and convince people that “in spite of these odds” they can still make it, but to give them the actual process authorised by Srila Prabhupada, and then they will definitely make it. And that process is not – a 71 parallel authority/gurus will fall-down/diksa gurus are like ritviks
while still diksa gurus – make-shift concocted system. But the same process as when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet: a GBC carrying out Srila Prabhupada’s directives with everyone united around Srila Prabhupada as their Guru.
Where is the unity ?

Srila Prabhupada: “I wish that each and every branch shall keep their separate identity and cooperate keeping the acharya (my add. Srila Prabhupada) in the center. On this principle we can open any number of branches all over the world. The Rama Krishna mission works on this principle and thus as an organization they have done wonderfully.”
(SP letter 11th Feb. 1967)

In addition to ISKCON’s current guru system not having any order from Srila Prabhupada to justify its existence, the GBC’s official “brain”, the “Sastric Advisory Council” (SAC), has said that the process by which it does authorise gurus, via voting them in, is not based on “guru, sadhu and sastra”:

“Our present system has institutionalized a process of senior devotees voting or offering no-objection to prospective gurus. But we do not find that this institutionalized blessingseeking process is mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra as the way that one is authorized to become a guru.”
(Balancing the roles of the GBC and the disciple in Guru selection, SAC)

You can find this quote in the middle of this GBC Website:

http://gbc.iskcon.org/2012/01/26/balancing-the-roles-of-the-gbc-and-the-disciple-in-guru-selection/

So from every angle, ISKCON’s current guru system is basically a big unauthorised hoax!

“As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he is on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, December 14th, 1972)

”Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.14)

Srila Prabhupada: “If you simply want an ordinary education, you have to devote so much time, labor, and understanding to it. Similarly, if you are going to take to spiritual life, you must become serious.”

Reporter: “I wondered how many people you think might have been taken in by fake gurus.”

Srila Prabhupada: “Practically everyone. [Laughter.] There is no
question of counting. Everyone.”

Reporter: “This would mean thousands of people, wouldn’t it?”

Srila Prabhupada: “Millions. Millions have been cheated, because they want to be cheated. God is omniscient. He can understand your desires. He is within your heart, and if you want to be cheated, God sends you a cheater.”
(The Science of Self-Realization, chapter 2)

Your servant,
Mathias Sabji