Dusyanta to disprove Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik-System
We are always amazed at the stupidity of so called devotees, trying very hard to disprove Srila Prabhupadas clear instructions.
One such species, like Dusyanta dasa writes: ” In the July 9th letter there is no indication that this process can be applied after He is no longer with us and the other instructions cited from July 11th,19th and 31st are not absolute constants that can be applied to the July 9th letter. Its only ritvik supporters who have connected these evidences to support their thesis.”
Dusyanta dasa is talking like a madman. We do not need to engage every madman and deal with their myriad of misinterpretations, but still we will try to enlighten Dusyanta in his confusion.
The simple proof is right there in the beginning of the July 9th letter, in which Srila Prabhupada states: “henceforward”. What is the meaning of “henceforward” ?
Dusyanta proofs the opposite: “henceforward” means NOT to continue!
First of all Dusyanta’s logic is defective . He does not accept Srila Prabhupada’s order. His approach is to deny the order of the acarya. This is vapuvada on steroid mixed a poisonous dose of guru mara vidya (tamal’s acarya is dead philosophy).
The physicality requirement is met with the physical presence of the officiating acarya, who does the ceremonial aspects and preaches according to this realization. Srila Prabhupada is the absolute acarya, the absolute giver of divyam jnanam. That is the real initiation.
Their obsession with the physicality of a neophyte, whether he be a kanistha or a madhyma neophyte, is simply to deny the order of the acarya Srila Prabhupada. Just throwing some ghee and bananas into the fire, does not make one the sum total of all demigods and saksad hari tvena. Their philosophy is minimum qualifications and maximum puja and maximum money grab.
Who is accepting his rascal misinterpretations? Over 97% of Srila Prabhupada’s original disciples have no trust in the GBC and their neo-Gaudiya Matha vapu-vada philosophy and this “Johny come lately” is going to try to revive their myth of appointment and vapu vada!.
So if he does not accept the July 9th 1977 letter, then where is his other letter where Srila Prabhupada directly and publicly appoints these 11 bogus fellows as diksha-gurus? Where is that letter?
Why did Srila Prabhupada not directly announce the appointment of these so called 11 devious disciples and their alleged diksha-guru status during His manifested lifetime? Where is that public announcement?
Why did the GBC not play this so-called appointment tape and all other relevant conversations at Mayapura in 1978 and to be fully discussed in front of everybody?
Dusyanta deceptive understanding has been already analysed by PADA and previously exposed on prabhupadanugas.eu :
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=37222
Dusyanta (DD) says:
DD: And Srila Prabhupada said in a lecture in Hawaii that not always is there a Diksa Guru present, so we may take shelter of the Shiksa Guru. And the other point is that Srila Prabhupada’s Books are directly Him — they are not just pieces of paper, but His Books include His personality. This is the mystery of Srila Prabhupada’s Books.
[PADA: OK that is the ritvik style system.]
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/ritvik-letter-july9th.html
DD: The imperfect presentation I am making is that there are other routes for devotees to take. It’s not just this ISKCON presentation or the Ritvik presentation. There is another way(s). We can accept a Diksa Guru for the purpose of initiation, but he does not have to be our main Guru, because our Shiksa Guru can also be the singular Guru, as mentioned in Caitanya-caritamrta Antya Lila, Ch. 2 Text, 1 word for word translation. Sri-Guroh is either Diksa or Shiksa Guru.
[PADA: It says the disciple should have only one diksha guru, not the multiple re-initiations system in current ISKCON.]
DD: No matter who is your Diksa Guru: why not take shelter of Srila Prabhupada and follow Him as our Shiksa Guru? He is no longer physically present so it is not possible to serve His physical presence any longer, but we can absolutely follow and serve His instructions and words after He no longer physically exists. He is our Siksa Guru. He is that uttama-adhikari Siksa Guru that we can worship as good as God, and He can remain in that relationship as Siksa Guru eternally.
[PADA: OK so now you are saying his books are not giving pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha? Who authorized you to limit his books? ys pd]
Srila Prabhupada: I SHALL LIVE From MY BOOKS, AND YOU WILL UTILIZE.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you’re not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise…
Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ… answers are there in my books.
(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)
So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered. (Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)
Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered. ( Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)
770517ar.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: ….. So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.
Srila Prabhupada: “So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.”
Srila Prabhupada:”So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him.” (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)
“I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my guru maharaja” (Srila Prabhupada to Tamal Krishna, 14 July 1977)
73-11-25. Letter: Cidananda
I should be returning to Los Angeles the last week of November and I should be more than happy to see you there. Please always try to remember me by my teachings and we shall always be together.
If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way. (BTG 13:1-2, December 1977)
Just throwing some ghee and bananas into the fire, does not make one the sum total of all demigods and saksad hari tvena. Their philosophy is minimum qualifications and maximum puja and maximum money grab.
Mahesh: this above is very good point in the article. They have a very strange FOOLOSOPHY one of their baboons on hire from BOGUS GBC throws sesame seeds and banana in the fire AND for THEM a disciple is BORN: with a MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING Baboon for Diksa guru.
Duysanta is a Vapuvadi I have written a reply to his nonsense before so will not repeat here:
http://iskcontimes.com/REPLY-to-Rochana-Prabhu4
There is no point in wasting our time with these Anti -Srila Prabhupada people like Duysanta – we have ALREADY EXPOSED them. Duysanta is associated with ALL Salary paid guys – he knows where is PAYROLL is:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
Prabhu, in the above article, you are using a seldom used noun, “disproof,” as a verb. The correct word is “disprove.”
(Thank you, we will correct it, webmaster)
SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THE CURRENT ACARYA ACTUAL INITIATOR IN ISKCON
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to** PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM.** There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to. (68-04-12.Day Letter: Dayananda)
The **ONLY** INJUNCTION FROM SCRIPTURES IS TO WORSHIP THE ACARYA. Its only the acarya that is able to give diksa ( spiritual initiation) to the Madhyama-adhikari (see antya CC 4.192-4.194) where he relishes loving mellows(in his svarupa) with Krsna. Acarya is not voted by the GBC 2/3 majority votes. The acarya has direct communication with Krsna- Krsna speaks through him. It is therefore only the acarya that can actually be expected to be worshiped as good as Krsna. So the photo worship is not sanctioned of one who is not an acarya. (conditioned soul worship — idol worship where is the difference?).
Adi 1.45 “According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is nondifferent from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees.”
Adi 1.46 **ACARYAM** MAM VIJANIYAN NAVAMANYETA KARHICIT NA MARTYA-BUDDHYASUYETA SARVA-DEVA-MAYO GURUH “One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.” Purport:THIS IS A VERSE FROM SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM (11.17.27)
Note: It is significant the SAME TEXT has been quoted In NoD Ch7 but in reference to **ACCEPTING INITIATION**. So this shows INITIATION IS FROM ACARYA NOT FROM 2/3 MAJORITY VOTED SPIRITUAL MASTERS.
Ch7 Nectar of Devotion; Serving the Spiritual Master with Faith and Confidence Regarding ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, IN THE ELEVENTH CANTO OF SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, SEVENTEENTH CHAPTER, VERSE 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Adi 1.35 A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden.
Note:We know it is only the uttama adhikari acarya Prabhupada that is able to transmit diksa (spiritual Initiation) into the madhyam adhikaris heart whereby he is enabled to see Krsna and relish loving mellows in his svarupa. (television in the heart).
Here it is understood that the spiritual master disciplic succession is of acaryas. And Srila Prabhupada is the current acarya. SB 3.29.17 In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THE PROMINENT ACARYA.
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. WE HAVE TO** PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM.** There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
68-04-12.Day Letter: Dayananda
The injunction is to worship acarya as opposed to those who conduct spiritual master business. This statement from Srila Prabhupada is uncompromising. Srila Prabhupada wants to deliver the devotees form the lust of wanting to be worshiped as good as God. But if they become envious of his position as the acarya and wish to be worshiped as good as God then he is telling them their destiny:
Isopanisad 12 The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. THEY IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–”ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA“- AND KRSNA’S STATEMENT IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (4.2) EVAM PARAMPARA-PRAPTAM, “THIS SUPREME SCIENCE OF GOD IS RECEIVED THROUGH THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS. THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
Note: Srila Prabhupada (Jagad-guru) has already given us the Holy name initiation in his books, tapes and formal ceremonies also. All it requires now is that one chant offenselessly–this is attained in the madhyma-adhikari platform(spiritual Initiation-diksa). Those who are making money from spiritual master business may be agitated–but we know that **only Krsna’s pure devotee can give Krsna** and Prabhupada has given the Holy name. So far as formality of the ceremony– July 9th letter Prabhupada said conduct as ritviks(Representative of Acarya). How can he allow worship of conditioned souls?
Antya 7.12 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the spiritual master of the entire world (jagad-guru). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation.
THE TRUE ACARYA PRESENTS KRSNA TO EVERYONE BY PREACHING THE HOLY NAME OF THE LORD THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. THUS THE CONDITIONED SOULS, PURIFIED BY CHANTING THE HOLY NAME, ARE LIBERATED FROM THE BLAZING FIRE OF MATERIAL EXISTENCE.
In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsna’s mercy. indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna.
HE IS THEREFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF ALL THE VARNAS (BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, VAISYA AND SUDRA) AND ALL THE ASRAMAS (BRAHMACARYA, GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA AND SANNYASA).
Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura.
Note: it is interesting that in Srila Prabhupada’s books also it is STRESSED: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Founder-Acarya of the International Society For Krishna Consciousness. ‘Founder’ ** HYPEN** Acarya means that Srila Prabhupada is NOT ONLY the Founder BUT ALSO the Acarya of ISKCON. It is also Srila Prabhupada’s desire to REMAIN at the centre so all devotees take the advantage of receiving diksa from his Divine Grace.
I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully.67-02-11. Letter: Kirtanananda
Srila Prabhupada is THAT Acarya who first Initiates us with the MAHA-MANTRA
Adi 1.34 The Spiritual Masters
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has composed this Sanskrit verse for the beginning of his book, and now he will explain it in detail. He offers his respectful obeisances to the six principles of the Absolute Truth. Gurun is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, THE GURU WHO FIRST INITIATES ONE WITH THE MAHA-MANTRA IS TO BE KNOWN AS THE INITIATOR, AND THE SAINTS WHO GIVE INSTRUCTIONS FOR PROGRESSIVE ADVANCEMENT IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS ARE CALLED INSTRUCTING SPIRITUAL MASTERS.
Srila Prabhupada is the ONE initiator Spiritual Master
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Srila Prabhupada is THAT PURE devotee who GIVES Krsna. The Holy Name is NOT the conditioned soul property to give this is WHY the Holy name is given ON BEHALF of the Acarya Srila Prabhupada and as per his ORDER of July 9th 1977 Ritvik acting as his REPRESENTATIVE
SB 7.9.42 P Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
Here the words priya janan anusevatam nah indicate that the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is very favorable to devotees who act according to the instructions of His own pure devotee. In other words, one must become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. If one wants to become the servant of the Lord directly, this is not as fruitful as engaging in the service of the Lord’s servant. This is the direction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who shows us the way to become gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah. One should not be proud of becoming directly the servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rather, one must seek a pure devotee, a servant of the Lord, and engage oneself in the service of such a servant. The more one becomes the servant of the servant, the more one becomes perfect in devotional service. This is also the injunction of Bhagavad-gita: evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. One can understand the science of the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by the parampara system. In this regard, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, tandera carana sevi bhakta-sane vasa: “Let me serve the lotus feet of the devotees of the Lord, and let me live with devotees.” Janame janame haya, ei abhilasa. Following Narottama dasa Thakura, one should aspire to be a servant of the Lord’s servant, life after life. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura also sings, tumi ta’ thakura, tomara kukura, baliya janaha more: “O my Lord, O Vaisnava, please consider me your dog.” One must become the dog of a Vaisnava, a pure devotee, for a pure devotee can deliver Krsna without difficulty. Krsna se tomara, krsna dite para. KRSNA IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS PURE DEVOTEE, AND IF WE TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE CAN DELIVER KRSNA VERY EASILY. Prahlada wants to engage in the service of a devotee, and therefore he prays to Krsna, “My dear Lord, kindly give me the shelter of Your very dear devotee so that I may engage in his service and You may then be pleased.” Mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika (Bhag. 11.19.21). The Lord says, “Engaging in the service of My devotee is better than trying to engage in My devotional service.
Srila Prabhupada is THE ONE INITIATING Spiritual Master:
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THAT MAHA-BHAGAVATA WHO GIVES DIKSA:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
Dusyanta dasa writes on Sun Sampradaya on Dec.16,2013 ; http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-13/editorials11136.htm
In his writing, Dusyanta dasa emphasizes on the physically present liberated guru or Shiksha Guru by quoting c.c. 1.58 which reads as ; ” “Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul. He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a Spiritual Master is no one other than Krishna Himself.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.58)
And further he quotes in his article the whole purport of Srila Prabhupada: “It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krishna sends an Instructing Spiritual Master to show him favour and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krishna, who is seated as the Spiritual Master within the heart of the living entity.”
Dusyanta dasa has indeed presented a great deal of twist and turn in his recently above mentioned article on the Sampradaya Sun emphasizing the physically present guru verses the absentia Guru’s Instructions which are non different as he quoted in his old article on this web site which reads as ;
” So what’s the problem with this point of view, which is what it is. Why can’t Srila Prabhupada be everyone’s Siksha Guru in absentia, which is what this statement is advising? Everyone can accept Srila Prabhupada as their Siksha Guru in absentia, in His non-manifest form, aprakata. The exact Truth concerning the Spiritual Master and His instructions/words are spelt out in Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.35:
“There is no difference between the Spiritual Master’s instructions and the spiritual master Himself.”
With that evidence in mind, it appears that the statement aforementioned makes sense and is the truth.”
Dusyanata dasa what is the need of a physically present Siksha Guru as you cunningly and cleverly emphasising in your new article when HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s VANI is present before a sincere and serious seeker giving the necessary Instructions how to engage in the service of Lord Shri Krishna who sends an Instructing Spiritual Master in His VANI – Instructions to show the seeker a favour and invoke his/her dormant propensity for serving the Supreme ?????
What kind of contradiction do you find when you quote cc. 1.35 and cc. 1.58 quoted by you in this regard ?
If there is a contradiction, then, please explain what it is ?
If NOT, then, please explain what is your motive to quote only cc.1.58 in your new article on SS under discussion and thus, discrediting Prabhupadanuga world wide ?
Rocana dasa will not accept and publish this challenge on his web site because it goes against his thesis of DOR.
I hope you read this message and answer it as a gentleman, Dusyanta dasa.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
This is a reply to Duysanta das whose article http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-13/editorials11136.htm
Duysanta :“What they did not do was to publish the quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s Cc Adi 1.58 and then prove that the Ritvik theory was still applicable, with substantial quotes from Srila Prabhupada”
Mahesh: Duysanta das you are Soooooo IGNORANT that you just don’t get it. THEN you accuse us Prabhupadanugas of calling names. The FACT is you are in TAMO GUNA. Just ACCEPT the TRUTH!!!
10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
SATYAM, TRUTHFULNESS, MEANS THAT FACTS SHOULD BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. FACTS SHOULD NOT BE MISREPRESENTED. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS UNPALATABLE, ONE SHOULD NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT. TRUTHFULNESS DEMANDS THAT THE FACTS BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRUTH.
Anyway, here is an answer QUOTING Adi 1.58 this is done in SPOON-FEED way just like feeding a small baby HOPING Duysanta will get it this time.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THE SPIRITUAL MASTER from WHOSE BOOKS and CDs WE ALL take OUR DISCIPLINE
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
GENERALLY A SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS A DISCIPLE IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE BECOMES HIS INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT LIBERTED DEVOTEE WHO APPEARS BEFORE US AS HIS BOOKS, Cds, TAPES means “The preceptor appears before the EXTERNAL SENSES of the fortunate conditioned soul” Books are PHYSICAL so YOU can VISUALISE Srila Prabhuapada as his BOOKS before the external senses THE EYES, and the EARS when you HEAR his Cds, Tapes, mp3’s are ALL about application of EXTERNAL SENSES.
Adi 1.58 The Spiritual Masters
Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as A LIBERATED DEVOTEE. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.
PURPORT
It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the EXTERNAL SENSES of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT POWERFUL MAHA-BHAGAVATA WHO ALWAYS CARRIES THE SUPREME PERSONALITY IF GODHEAD IN HIS HEART:
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS ***TRANSFERRED*** TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Note: in the Madhyama adhikari stage there is INITIATION ALSO:
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
Antya 4.192 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
“AT THE TIME OF INITIATION, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
PURPORT
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of INITIATION, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. THUS HAVING ATTAINED KNOWLEDGE AND THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM, HE ALWAYS ENGAGES IN THE SERVICE OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF KRSNA. WHEN ONE IS FREED FROM MATERIAL CONNECTIONS IN THIS WAY, HIS BODY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SPIRITUAL, AND KRSNA ACCEPTS HIS SERVICE.
However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life.
NoI 5
A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT Maha-bhagavata WHO STILL gives INITIATION at MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI STAGE so there is ONLY ONE INITIATOR THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS and Ritvik Representative gives the HOLY NAME ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the ACTUAL INITIATOR.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
Note: the Initiation refered to HERE below is DIFFERENT from the Initiation given at the STAGE of MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI. The formality of 1st and 2nd initiation is given HERE by RITVIK REPRESENTATIVES on BEHALF OF Srila Prabhupada. Everyone KNEW they were CONDITIONED souls. CONDITIONED SOULS CAN NOT TRASFER KRSNA INTO YOUR HEART HENCE THE FORMALITY OF ONLY 1ST AND 2ND INITATIONS.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Srila Prabhupada is the ONE initiator Spiritual Master
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Note: WHY these Duysanta type of people can NOT grasp this VERY simple thing is because he is in TAMO GUNA:
740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT. (French)
You can ONLY be a Disciple of ONE who gives YOU the discipline and ALL the DISCIPLINE is coming FROM Srila Prabhupada
In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
The Guru HOAX: they were CONDITIONED souls NOT acarya hence NO ORDER:
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977:
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Note: Guru MUST be on Uttama Adhikari stage. But aside from that he needs an ORDER from his Guru to be ACARYA.
Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan:
Prabhupada: “WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
“When I order” — NO ORDER WAS GIVEN on the contrary the ONLY instruction that followed TWO months AFTER was as per 9th July 1977, that they were to act in the capacity of Ritvik Representative of Acarya and the disciples initiated would be Srila Prabhupada’s, NOT theirs.
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, October 28, 1975, Nairobi:
Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he’s ORDERED by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.”
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972
“Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU.
Note: As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are ALL CONDITIONED souls, so we CANNOT be guru. ”
BUT just AFTER 7 months in NOVEMBER, the departure of Srila Prabhupada, he was deceitful, he CHEATED, thus began the Guru HOAX in ISKCON.
I was just thinking ISKCON is becoming more like a Zoo.
Just consider this: You have CONDITIONED soul Baboons who want to be WORSHIPPED AS GOOD AS GOD(sum total of all demigods) then you have THICK skulled Baby Baboons(disciples) who feed off FOOT-BATH PUKE of the Baboons feet—- INSTEAD OF Worshiping Srila Prabhupada the ACTUAL CURRENT Diksa Guru.
What brains have they got left to understand Srila Prabhupada’s books? AND —-there are those that are too drunk on FOOTBATH PUKE who think that Srila Prabhupada BOOK CHANGES that JAS and the GORILLA? made are OK. Is it not a Zoo?
The deviants want to REMOVE Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT DIKSA GURU OF ISKCON but they are becoming sooooo degraded. Mayapur meetings they have ONLY TWO topics for discussion:
1) Female Diksa Guru (PROSTITUTES WANT ALSO TO BE RECOGNISED “AS GOOD AS GOD” SUM TOTAL OF ALL DEMIGODS)
2) The “Ritviks” – Dear Lord Krsna Bless them—–PLEASE!!!!! They want to find WHO IN ISKCON is giving the SECRETS away to the Ritviks. SOMEHOW these Ritviks JUST manage to find EVERYTHING AND REVEAL TO PUBLIC. They keep some secret on conditioned soul “Gurus” having sex with his disciple BUT the Ritviks find out. They screw HUGH amount of SALARY Ritviks find out. WHO is telling the Ritviks?
These Ritviks are just EVERYWHERE.
SSSSh!