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Krishnakant, editor Back To Prabhupada, posted, Nov 6, 2009: In the last issue of Back To Prabhupada (BTP #16), we quoted ISKCON GBC voted-in guru His Grace Ravindra Svarupa Das, in his role as GBC Chairman, stating in the ISKCON Communications Journal with reference to the sannyasa ashram (renounced, monastic order) in ISKCON:
“The renounced order of life has come to be called the denounced order of life – we hear that all the time.”
Sannyasa ashram outlawed in ISKCON after 1977
“If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: “What nonsense this man is… ‘By sex life one becomes conditioned.’ “They cannot understand. Hare Krishna…This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a… No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that “We shall not fall down again,” that is also not believable. What is the use?”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
“And this kind of hypocrisy–they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. […] Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many grhastha devotees. […] But what is this nonsense that you take sannyasa and make relation with…? This should be completely stopped.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
“And we discussed the sannyasa recommendations. […] And for next year no recommendations were made.”
(Room Conversation GBC Members, 2nd and 3rd March, 1977)
Sannyasis forbidden from business activities
“Business must be done by the grhasthas, not by the sannyasis or brahmacaris.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 22/1/76)
“The brahmacaris and sannyasis must stick to the temple activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 4/9/75)
Useless activities for sannyasis
“This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it’s so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing—simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing”.
(Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 11/11/75)
“We are not interested in these things like hatha-yoga and swimming. We do not encourage such useless activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 6/1/75)
Sannyasis living at the expense of householders not accepted by Lord Caitanya
“Then this is a hint by Lord Caitanya that a sannyasi who has renounced everything, if he lives very gorgeously, with good dress, and good house, and apartment…
No. This is not approved by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then what is that? Whatever is absolutely necessity,
he should accept, not more. Yes. That is renounced order of life, not that in the name of renounced order of life he should live at the expense of the householders, very gorgeously. No. This is not sannyasa.
It is not accepted by Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s sampradaya.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 21/11/66
Below we read a report by disciples of ISKCON GBC voted-in guru, HH Bhakti Caru Swami (BCS), describing him directing business ventures, engaging in swimming, saunas, jacuzzis, and also enjoying the facilities of a householder. We will let the readers decide in light of the above quotes if these activities are compatible with the austere sannyasa ashrama:
“There, Guru Maharaja is able to ‘take it easy,’ so to speak, namely resting, catching up on correspondence, and guiding the various business ventures of (…) prabhu and his associates. Every morning at seven, Guru Maharaja goes down to the indoor pool to swim several laps and spend time in the sauna, one after another, repeatedly for four or five times. […] On Gurudev’s request in the Jacuzzi this morning […] On a previous day Gurudev whilst sitting in the Jacuzzi […] This morning Gurudev continued to glorify (…) Prabhu’s mother, expressing how nice she was, and how beautiful her home in Beverly Hills was. Gurudev recalled “I swam in the pool in the backyard, it was a nice pool”. (BCS Istagosthi, May 20th/ 27th, 2007)
To learn more, please visit iskconirm.com!
The above article, based on quotes from 07/01/1977 is offensive because it implies disobedience on the part of the venerable, sincere disciples of Prabhupada who have, & will continue to take sannyasa “at the last stage of life”, as instructed by Prabhupada on 23/01/1977.
Under the circumstances, “Sannyasa ashram outlawed in ISKCON after 1977” is a convincing article, based on Prabhupada’s quotes relating to the ludicrous situation of fallen sannyasis in ISKCON, as Prabhupada said on 07/01/1977: “This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis.”
But if the 2 quotes that Krishnakant used, both from the same conversation, are to be taken as final then, why does Prabhupada say, 15 & 16 days later that sannyasa is “compulsory”, “abslolutely necessary” & “without this classification, the whole society will remain in chaotic condition”, as shown by the following quotes:
Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 7: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 7.1 — Bhuvanesvara, January 22, 1977 : 770122BG.BHU :
So there is necessity of the four classes. At the present moment they are trying to create classless society. That is chaotic society. That is not real society. That is not Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization means when there is classified society begins:brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. And without this classification, the whole society will remain in chaotic condition… (More…)
Lectures : General Lectures : Evening Lecture — Bhuvanesvara, January 23, 1977 : 770123LE.BHU :
Prabhupāda: …So to accept this position-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—is compulsory. It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyāsa… (More…)
This above quote from 23/01/1977 clarifies the situation; “It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life…”
Therefore it can be understood that, it was unqualified men who had taken sannyasa as a matter of fashion, that caused Prabhupada to say on 07/01/1977 “…there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis…”
Taking all the quotes together, we can conclude that the downfall of “fashion” sannyasis, should not exclude qualified devotees “at the last stage of life” from taking sannyasa. The later, repeated instructions, which were given in class to all the devotees, should surely supercede previous comments made in private on only one occasion. Otherwise we run the risk, of showing ourselves to be like the “so-called scholar”, described in the following sannyasa related quote, made 18 days after the quotes cited by Krishnakant:
Conversations : 1977 Conversations : January, 1977 : Evening Conversation — January 25, 1977, Puri : 770125rc.pur :
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don’t forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don’t want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. “Bibliography.” Is it not? So-called scholar? (More…)
Actually, I am just like the “so-called scholar” described in the above quote, because I’ve read hardly any of Prabhupada’s books. I’ve composed this message from word-search at prabhupadabooks.com. But at least I took the time to check all the relevant quotes that I could find on the subject, unlike the editor of a certain leading so-called Prabhupada focussed publication.
The final conversational instructions I could find on the subject of sannyasa (included below) contain the following apparently contrasting, but transcendentally enlightening 2 quotes:
Conversations : 1977 Conversations : May, 1977 : Evening Darsana — May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh : 770513ed.hri :
“This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system. So… System of purification, how to become designationless…”
“…we have to purify ourselves from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that “I am this”—”I am Indian,” “I am American,” “I am brāhmaṇa,” “I am sannyāsī,” “I am gṛhastha,” “I am white,” “I am black.” These are the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra…”
Conversations : 1977 Conversations : May, 1977 : Evening Darsana — May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh : 770513ed.hri :
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don’t talk. Why you are talking? So our real trouble is that we have become conditioned by the material identification, “I am this body.” Everyone is thinking, “I am Indian,” “I am American,” “I am brāhmaṇa,” “I am sannyāsī,” everything, identification with the body. That is the dirty thing. So one has to purify, that “I am neither American, neither Indian, norbrāhmaṇa, or so many designations.” Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is mukti, when you don’t identify with this material body. And so long you identify with this material body, either you become a sannyāsī with some beard or a gṛhastha without some beard, the same thing, identifying with the body. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12] means to become free from the bodily designation. And śāstra says,yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is composition of three dhātu, kapha, pitta, vāyu, according to Āyur Veda; and according to medical science, it is skin and then muscle, blood, bone, and marrow, stool, urine, those, combination. So I am not this combination of stool, bone, skin, blood. But people are taking that. When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino ‘smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinaḥ, dehī. Dehinaḥ and deha. So anyone who is identifying with this body in either… According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13].This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system. So… System of purification, how to become designationless. And if we keep the designation, then, śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ: [SB 10.84.13] “One who keeps the bodily designation, he’s no better than the cows and the asses, animal.” So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that… Caitanya Mahā… This is the shastric, Vedic culture, that we have to purify ourselves from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that “I am this”—”I am Indian,” “I am American,” “I am brāhmaṇa,” “I am sannyāsī,” “I am gṛhastha,” “I am white,” “I am black.” These are the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. This chanting and hearing is puṇya-śravaṇa. If you do not know anything about, if you simply chant and hear, you become purified, puṇya, because on account of dirty things, impious life, you have become covered by different bodies. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Different bodies means the way of birth and death. That you have to stop. And that is stopped when you get Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, I think, in the Ninth Chapter… Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa, mām aprāpya [Bg. 9.3]. You cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you have no faith in Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you don’t care for Kṛṣṇa, that is another thing, but if you want to get Kṛṣṇa, then what Kṛṣṇa says, you follow. Read. (More…)
One last quote to complete clarification:
Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures : Canto 7: Lectures : SB 7.6: Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1 — Madras, January 2, 1976 : 760102SB.MAD :
Acyutānanda: One more question, last question. Is it necessary that a person should pass through the three āśramas, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, before coming to sannyāsa?
Prabhupāda: “That is the normal rules and regulation, that especially brāhmaṇa, he must go through the fourāśramas, first of all become brahmacārī, then gṛhastha, then vānaprastha, then take sannyāsa. This is for thebrāhmaṇas. And for the kṣatriyas, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, and vānaprastha. And for the vaiśyas, brahmacārī, gṛhastha. And for the śūdras, only gṛhastha. This is the process. This is normal process. But either one is brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaisya and śūdra, if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes above these rules and regulations. (applause) Yes.”
————————————————————————————————–
“I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him.”
Prabhupada ki jaya!
PADA: The main point is: Srila Prabhupada warned that his leaders were not fit for sannyasa, that they were not capable of following the standards of sannyasa, and as such — that they were making ISKCON appear foolish, so he suspended sannyasa. All this begs the self-evident question: Which current “venerable and sincere” sannyasa disciples are being discussed here? Why are none of them named or even one of them named?
At the present moment in “official ISKCON,” it appears that all of the current “sannyasas” endorse the many years of various GBC annual reports, letters, lectures and numerous “position papers” which say: Gurus and acharyas fall into illusion; Gurus fall into illicit sex, drugs, alcohol etc; Indeed some of their “gurus” are now eating meat and so on. Of course these GBC papers blatantly defy one of the ten offenses: that one is forbidden to consider the guru as an ordinary man who can fall down.
In fact in 1980 the GBC wrote a paper entitled “The Mahajanas Have Difficulties” (penned by Satvarupa swami, Jayadvaita swami and Jaggadisha dasa) which says that even the greatest acharyas and mahajanas fall into illusion. This is only one example of tons of the GBC “sannyasa guru’s” subsequent documents which say — gurus are aften debauchees, in fact there are hundreds more letters, statements and documents, for example later on Jayadvaita swami summed up that in ISKCON some gurus are found to be “engaged in illicit sex with men, women and possibly children as well.”
Hence, the current “sannyasas” of ISKCON are all apparently endorsing all of these huge stacks of annual GBC letters, lectures, annual reports and position papers which state that acharyas are most of the time debauchees, since most of their acharyas has fallen down. Are you saying these sannyasas and their alleged GBC endorsed “guru tattva” statements are bona fide? That is the first question we need to have answered. Next, we can then examine if the sannyasas that were made after 1977 have been failing left, right and center, because the warnings given by Srila Prabhupada about premature sannyasa were followed or not? ys pd
Haribol Puranjana prabhu,
I wrote the above message largely in defence of a Prabhupadanuga Siksa guru who is a sannyasi. I shouldn’t need to name people.
Nothing in your above message justifies the attack Krishnakant has made on the sannyasa ashrama, especially since he only provides only 2 quotes, both from the same conversation. I have provided 4 quotes from later in 1977 than the quotes Krishnakant has used. In the quotes I have provided, Prabhupada vehemently declares the sannyasa order to be “compulsory”.
Hare Krishna.
pamho agtACBSP
why all these disgusting things happened in iskcon? Because sannyasa order of life is forbidden in kali-yuga age.
“So then Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, that, “Such kind of learned brahmanas and Vedic yajna is not possible in this age. Therefore, “Sacrifice by offering cow, sacrifice by offering horse, and…” Asvamedham gavalambham [Cc. Adi 17.164]. And sannyasam pala paitrkam. Sannyasa means to become in the renounced order of life. And these five things. One thing is sacrifice by offering cow. Second, sacrifice by offering horse. Third, to accept renounced order of life. And fourth, offering ablutions.. Or what is called? Offering some, something to the forefathers? What is called? Oblations. Yes. This, and to beget child by the husband’s younger brother. Formerly, the society allowed that if a woman is young, she has no child, but husband died, so if the husband has younger brother, through the younger brother she could have a child. This system was current. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that these five things are forbidden in this age.”
Therefore i agreed to make iskcon to stop the devotees to take sannyasa for the moment because we already saw so many nasty things around fiskcon.
ys
seva das
haribol
Why not do as Prabhupada instructs? :
Forbid sannyasa as a fashion, but maintain the sannyasa order for suitably qualified devotees “at the last stage of life.”
Lectures : General Lectures : Evening Lecture — Bhuvanesvara, January 23, 1977 : 770123LE.BHU :
Prabhupāda: …So to accept this position-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—is compulsory. It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyāsa…”
Because; “…without this classification, the whole society will remain in chaotic condition… ”
These are Prabhupada’s instructions, reaffirmed again, more than four months after the January 7 quotes banning sannyasa in ISKCON; On May 13, 1977, Prabhupada makes his position on Varṇāśrama-dharma, including the sannyasa order abundantly clear:
“According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13].This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa.”
Very helpful, Jiva Atma Prabhu. I have not seen this nor in this nicely contexted form before. Hare Krsna.
Thank you Tamohara prabhu, it is very heartening to receive positive words at a time when many of us can only seem to deal harshly with each other.
Prabhupada ki jaya!
Is Puranjana not the author of a recent series of articles in b.i.f. severly criticizing Srila Prabhupada and Gauidya Vasihnavas, or is that another author?
Sorry, Srila Prabhupada suspended sannyasa in 1977 while he simultaneously said — they were making a laughing stock of sannyasa because they are not fit. That’s all, suspend sannyasa, they are not fit, they are giving my mission a bad name. Was he right? Absoulutely. I am not offending anyone, he made a statement and time has proven his statement to be correct. Has Prabhupada’s unheeded warning of false sannyasa given his mission a bad name?, I am not sure where people have been, but this has all been in the newspapers, they did give his mission a bad name. So after 1977 they made another 200 sannyasas who created all kinds of media scandals, because they violated his order to suspend sannyasa, thats all there is to it. I am not saying no one can become, I said its pretty evident we should suspend the order until people are qulaified to become, that was and is Prabhupada’s original point in 1977. ys pd
By time one is over fifty-five to 60 ish, sannyasa shouldn’t be such an insurmountable difficulty. Yes, Srila Prabhupada differentiated between a bold young sannyasa versus a mature older sannyasa.
pamho agtACBSP
the last desire of SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA was to establish varnasrama dharma in our fallen society of kali yuga.
This is what SRIMATI BHAGAVATI D.D., the wife of SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA told to her son SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA MAHARAJA, after the disappearance of SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA.
It is very sad to see our society still in chaos, i mean we should first follow the rules and regulations of varnasrama dharma properly, then we can become qualified to represent the sannyasa order of life – including all the others varnas and asramas.
Iskcon wants to stop devotees to take sannyasa for the moment because the sinful influence of this age slows down the establishment of varnasrama dharma in our society due to so many fake sannyasis and guru hoaxers.
This is the main problem for the moment but i agree that a wise man should organize his life through the principles of the varnasrama dharma by taking sannyasa at the last stage of his life to be free from the contamination of the material nature.
SRILA PRABHUPADA also says in HIS classes that when we have purified our existence through austerity, we will be eligible to enter into the kingdom of God, but without being purified, we can never enter.
This may mean undergoing some austerity, but this is the purpose of human life.
Of course a lot of new sannyasis in the beginning of this kali yuga just make a show of that asrama by getting puffed up but by establishing varnasrama properly there won’t be any problem anymore to take sannyasa.
Prabhupada: “Therefore it does not matter whether one is a ksatriya, vaisya, or brahmana; everyone is recommended to take sannyasa at the end of life, to engage himself completely in the service of the Lord and thus become freed from all sinful reactions of his past life.”
ys seva das
haribol
Its really not a question “if” someone can become a renounced sannyasa after 60. That answer is: maybe yes and maybe no, this is called speculation. Agreed, it “could be” easy — for a few rare people, and it “could be” impossible for most others, etc. That is not the actual answer to the question we raised, what I’m looking for is — practical examples. Its really a question of, how many ISKCON people are factually and actually able to keep the standard of renunciation for a sannyasa? And this would include — not only renouncing sex, but renouncing wealth, status, positon, name and recognition etc. and instead to travel and be constantly preaching. I do not know of many actual examples. If there are any, let me know, we should advertise this person and support his preaching efforts. Even BV Puri told Bhakta dasa and Guru kripa, go back to America, buy a small travel van, be sannyasa, travel and preach because, no one else is doing that. If there are no examples, or hardly any examples, that simply emphasizes the point, its not really what we need to focus on right now. ys pd
pamho agtCBSP
The practical example is that devotees who take the special mission of SRILA PRABHUPADA’s transcendental books distribution as heart and soul as goal of life as e.g. HG Madhu Pandit prabhu is showing by his example to the world, is a perfect sannyasi already.
“A short life in the land of Bharata-varsa is preferable to a life achieved in Brahmaloka for millions and billions of years because even if one is elevated to Brahmaloka, he must return to repeated birth and death. Although life in Bharata-varsa, in a lower planetary system, is very short, one who lives there can elevate himself to full Krishna consciousness and achieve the highest perfection, even in this short life, by fully surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Thus one attains Vaikunthaloka, where there is neither anxiety nor repeated birth in a material body.”
Everyone is progressing through the genuine sadhana bhakti of SRILA PRABHUPADA and soon or later whoever is following the stage of the daivi varnasrama dharma will become a good sannyasi, srinvatam sva kathah krsnah punya sravana kirtanah hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt satam.
“Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone’s heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted. (SB 1.2.17) so everyone will be a bhadra, purified, by doing like that.
Most of us are still abhadrani not hundred per cent yet says SRILA PRABHUPADA but, nasta-prayesu abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naistiki [SB 1.2.18]
By constantly performing daily sadhana we get bhakti paresanu, as stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.42), bhaktir paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra ca: in bhakti, a devotee’s only attachment is Krishna, he no longer wants to maintain his attachments to many other things.
It just takes time – the most important thing is that we are properly situated with HDG ACBSP ki jaya
ys seva das
haribol
Agreed, official sannyasa is not the real point. The real point is, who is preaching? And Madhu Pandit and similar others are out there doing the preaching, so that is really the main issue. People should preach, whatever age they are, and whatever status they are in, that is why Prabhupada said “preaching is the essence.” Madhu Pandit is out-doing all the assembled GBC sannyasas, that is proof: he is the better preacher. ys pd
The point is that, whatever was Prabhupada’s last word on the subject, we have to work with that. We cannot go back to a previous instruction at whim.
As far as I can see Prabhupada’s last recorded instruction on the subject of sannyasa is on May 13, 1977, 4 months after the quotes used by Krishnakant.
On May 13 1977 Prabhupada said;
“So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13].This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa.”
The problems in “official ISKCON” are caused by irresponsible people imitating advanced devotees & becoming degraded as a result as warned by Prabhupada in NOI text 5 purport.
My entire objection to Krishnakants article is that it implies that Prabhupada’s sincere disciples who take sannyasa are being disobedient.
Purunjana automatically assumes that I am trying to protect the corrupted system of ISKCON. No, I am speaking in defence of Prabhupadanuga Swamis. I have pointed this out, but Puranjana just ignores whatever anyone says, & goes on with his perpetual tirade against the easy target of “official ISKCON” even though the subtle deviations in the Prabhupadanuga movement are what we as Prabnhupadanugas should be guarding against more carefully, instead of constant finger pointing at the other group.
Whatever you have written suggests to me that you haven’t read my original message carefully in the first place.
No, this had nothing to do with corrupt ISKCON, the ritviks or any other ISKCON spin off group. I asked you to provide specific personal examples / evidence that there are sincere and bona fide sannyasas, i.e. those who follow Srila Prabhupada’s specifc descriptions for sannyasa, and follow his guru tattva siddhantas etc. I never said it could not be done. I said, you and others like you have failed to produce ANY evidence it is being done. You averted my whole question. Yes, in theory any person “could” follow the sannyasa order, i.e. renounce the material world, name and position, sex, and — TRAVEL and preach the correct siddhanta, all I asked was, where is this being done? And as a matter of fact, have we not seen a lot of false starts on this issue because the general self-evident rule is, better not to attempt that order until we have people QUALIFIED for that order? ys pd
Be honest; it seems you would find fault with His sannyasa if Trivikrama Brahmacary Himself appeared before you.
You are now arguing as if I had said something contrary to your above statement; “…better not to attempt that order until we have people QUALIFIED…”, which I have not. This is called gerrymandering, on your part.
My point all along, if you had actually read my original message properly, (before diverting the issue into your usual diatribe against pervy “gurus”) was that Prabhupada outlawed his disciples taking sannyasa as a “fashion”, but long after that, continued to vehemently support all aspects of Varnashrama dharma, of which the sannyasa asrama is a “compulsory” part.
Perhaps the most alarming aspect of this point in discussion, & the reason why I have raised objection so strongly, is the fact that Krishnakant actually seems to believe that outlawing the sannyasa asrama, is actually Prabhupada’s last word on the issue. For a man who seems to believe, or at any rate, wants us to believe, that his group, the IRM is preparing for power in ISKCON, his idea that Prabhupada officially outlawed sannyasa (for more than 15 days at any rate) demonstrates an alarmingly poor understanding of Prabhupada’s instructions. This adds validity to the argument that anything outside the ritvik issue is off Krishnakant’s “radar”.
The fact that Krishnakant, in his Back to Prabhupada (BTP) publication, has actually forwarded the so called formula of outlawing sannyasa as a remedy for ISKCON’s problems is dangerous, because he does so on the basis of misleadingly limited evidence from Prabhupada. Anyone taking Krishnakant’s argument seriously would be in danger of viewing post 1977 sannyasis, irrespective of their qualification, as disobedient. That is why Krishnakant’s argument is offensive in itself.
BTP issue 30 back page states; “Srila Prabhupada puts an end to ISKCON sannyasis for good.” & then presents a sized down version of the 7/1/1977 quotes from Krishnakant’s above article. Clearly Krishnakant is either unaware of Prabhupada’s later quotes on the matter, or he doesn’t expect anyone else to care about them.
Just like a few years ago, before the Hinduisation furore in ISKCON, the IRM was happily collaborating with Hindu Council UK over the banning of their members from Bhaktivedanta Manor. BTP ran a headline saying words to the effect “IRM gets official backing from the Hindu Council UK”, the contents of the article can still be seen online at;
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/hindu_council_uk_irm_and_temple_bannings.htm
Here’s an exerpt;
“The Hindu Council UK (HCUK), which acts as a major consultative body to the British government on policies affecting the Hindu community, as well as the leading voice for Hindus in the UK’s Inter Faith Network, has agreed that such a policy of banning devotees from worshipping in the temple is against the principles of devotion to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna.”
In the early days of the IRM Krishnakant believed that the larger part of his support would be coming from Hindus. In a private conversation circa 1995 Krishnakant asked me if I thought Krishna consciousness was Hindu or not. I didn’t know one way or the other & Krishnakant said his opinion was “either or”. He went on to describe how much money there was to be collected in the Hindu community & that he felt it would be advantageous to be able to identify as Hindus. He dropped that idea after objections to the BTP article which seemed to be more or less identifying the IRM as Hindu. Now of course, the issue is well talked about & the IRM policy is all out against the Hindu tag.
All this taken along with Krishnakant’s incredulous attitude to the poison conspiracy against Prabhupada, we get a picture of a sort of opportunistic business man who is willing to compromise the philosophy & the truth of the events of Prabhupada’s disappearance, for the sake of popularity & to ease his way into power.
With regard to your demand for evidence of current Prabhupadanuga Swamis; I don’t give names without prior permission, & I don’t see the validity of approaching busy senior devotees for permission to name them in a spat with you. I am surprised that a “key figure” such as yourself is unaware of any real Prabhupadanuga Swamis.
Also It seems strange that you are sticking up for Krishnakant & Madhu Pandit dasa at the same time. Whilst I am obviously not a Krishnakant supporter, I appreciate very much the exposure he has made of the offensive nature of the “Little Krishna” DVD’s that Madhu Pandit dasa has played such a key role in bringing out.
Did you know that Madhu Pandit dasa’s ISKCON Bangalore, & associated temples, distribute changed books, including Hridayanada’s poisonous Srimad Bhagavatam translation?
Did you know that in 2008 Krishnakant’s followers offered the Gaura-Purnima feast to a picture of Krishnakant because they said they couldn’t find a picture of Prabhupada in the house?
“Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa.”
The meaning is to actually become free from material attachment and to become situated in pure consciousness. And the whole instruction, instruction of Bhagavad-gita, is targeted to awaken that pure consciousness. We’ll find in the last stage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gita that Krsna is asking Arjuna whether he is now in purified consciousness. Whether he was in purified consciousness. The purified consciousness is to act according to the direction of the Lord. That is purified consciousness. That is the whole sum and substance of purified consciousness.
This is the meaning behind the term “sannyasa”. Not that people just put on the dress of sannyasa and the whole world has to speculate if this sannyasi is genuine or fake. There has to be consequence when so many fell down and the dress of sannyasa became negatively connotated. On the other hand, if someone performs wonderful transcendental activities and is totally immerged in opening temples, Govindas and farms, isnt this real sannyasa? Prabhupada clearly stopped this cheating process to masquerade oneself as sannyasi and this refers to the dress and nothing else.
Why are the newer devotees so obsessed with the notion of sannyasis “opening temples and farms and restaurants”? These are grhasta activities. Mahaprabhu was The example setter, and He never did any of those things.
Srila Prabhupada set the disciples in motion to do many things, but it is the householders who primarily maintained and opened temples, while sannyasis should travel and preach and be renounced, not managing money, as it leads to so many fall-downs for a renunciant who is not quite so renounced yet. Methinks if the sannyasis were actually poverty stricken, no longer gbc cloned gooroo- gods, we wouldn’t have so many licentious behaviors, nor would we attract quite so many power-mad kali yuga sociopath jet-sexing coke-sniffing swamis to that particular ashrama.
pamho agtACBSP
Even a man of knowledge is forced to follow his own guna and karma says SRIMAD BHAGAVAD GITA, 3.33.
Everyone can get knowledge by reading SRILA PRABHUPADA’s books but that same knowledge is lost when it is not vijnana, realization on the practical level of the soul like our beloved acharya HDG ACBSP has exemplified.
Therefore the false conception of i and mine persists even by dressing in sannyasa clothes.
SRILA PRABHUPADA used to say hard work first, samadhi later – the situation is the opposite at moment i mean everyone wants samadhi first without working hard because there is no vijnana, realized knowledge on the spiritual platform.
Therefore to take sannyasa nowadays has became just a fashion. But when the golden age of the transcendental samkirtan yajna movement of SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU will be settled in our society there will be no more problem in representing the renounced order of life called sannyasa.
ys seva das
haribol
Dear devotees,
PAMHO AGTSP
I am trying to understand this issue, and I would like to add three points to the discussion. I would be grateful if anyone answers them.
1) As far as I am aware Srila Prabhupada personally conducted the ceremonies for the granting of every single sannyasa initiation in ISKCON and there was no in absentia system for this unlike the 1st and 2d initiations. Whereas he began to transfer all the 1st and 2d initiation formalities to carry on by his disciples since the early years of ISKCON, and wrapped it up in 1977 by issuing July 9th letter on how 1st and 2d initiations would go on (by Temple Presidents and ritviks), the sannyasa initiations were not mentioned there, and there is a GBC resolution from 1977, which says:
“Resolved: Somaka Das, recommended for Sannyasa by Bhagavan Das did not come to Mayapur. Bhagavan feels he is eligible for initiation, if Srila Prabhupada visits Europe he could receive initiation then.”
(GBC Resolution 3, 3/3/1977)
And Srila Prabhupada was personally involved with the 3 final sannyasa initiations awarded in ISKCON on 29/5/77 (although it seems to be an exception since these initiations weren’t in accordance with the GBC procedures for sannyasa initiations which Srila Prabhupada himself had approved, and none of these individuals having been recommended for sannyasa either at the 1976 or 1977 GBC meetings, with Bhakti Caru having only received 1st initiation a few months previously)
So unless Srila Prabhupada personally gives the sannyasa initiation, what is the system to grant them in ISKCON?
Srila Prabhupada made such a system for the 1st and 2d initiations to continue. And if the 3d initiations (sannyasa) should also go on, where are the instructions from Srila Prabhupada how to take/give it in ISKCON? Should it be considered that all the sannyasis can give sannyasa initiations? Then why that wasn’t the case during Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence?
2) Regarding the outlawing sannyasa as a fashion and permitting it as a varnasrama order, I don’t understand how to distinguish where is the fashion? Permit it for those who are already in the vanaprastha order? And those who remained brahmacaris shouldn’t get it until some age? Or how exactly it is supposed to be?..
3) Another point that puzzles me – if sannyasa is compulsory even now, why it is said in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana that it is among those things that are prohibited in Kali yuga? And, again, why there were many examples of bone fide sannyasis in the previous centuries? The recent time was supposed to be Kali yuga… I assume it was mainly for the sake of preaching, as SB 8.2.30 purport indicates:
“What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.
aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ
sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam
devareṇa sutotpattiṁ
kalau pañca vivarjayet
[Cc. Ādi 17.164]
(Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa)
From this we can understand that in this age the sannyāsa-āśrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya advised Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyāsa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyāsa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyāsa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyāsa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the āśrama where sex is allowed, namely the gṛhastha-āśrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of māyā. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a gṛhastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore recommended, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vān-manobhiḥ. One may stay in whichever āśrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyāsa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the gṛhastha-āśrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyāsa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyāsa is not suitable, one may enter the gṛhastha-āśrama and fight māyā with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.”
OK so lets see some sannyasas travelling, preaching and making devotees. I am all for that. Problem is, I am not seeing that, nor did BV Puri maharaja when he told Bhakta dasa and Gurukripa to get a van, travel, do harinama in various cities, and be real sannyasas because ITS NOT BEING DONE. I am hoping this will happen, but am not seeing it happening. Trivrikrama swami (GBC guru) gave George Harrison his business card, it said “Trivrikrama swami, resident sannyasa,” George threw the card on the floor in disgust, he said “sannyasa does not have a residence.” I am rather in the George camp. Again you totally avoided the whole question, show us examples of the sannyasa order being applied. Otherwise this is all tempest in a teapot speculation. ys pd
pamho agtACBSP in the vedic society of ancient Bharata-varsa, India, whoever was taking sannyasa order of life was considered dead materially and people were full of respect for a sannyasi who was going free of charge everywhere by being free from lusty desire.
The council took the sannyasi’s name out of the register, still nowadays they do it in some region of India i witnessed that when living there.
Today sannyasis are completely different i mean they got residences and attachment to the material world. Therefore it is obvious that daivi-varnasrama dharma needs to work out to rectify all these fake sannyasis by making them understand that they have no right to exploit Krsna devotees and SRILA PRABHUPADA’s movement just because they are considered senior sannyasi.
Practically we can see they lack of realization, vijnana, regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead the proprietor of everything.
Therefore they are not sannyasi yet. We wish them to become good sannyasis as soon as possible because we already got so many fake sannyasis in our polluted society.
On the other hand Prabhupada clearly said, no more sannyasa, because whom you can trust nowadays?
ys seva das
haribol
The present day ISKCON bogus sannyasis cannot possibly keep it up without some sort of sense gratification. They have given up honesty and truth for women, power and money.
Its the same thing all over again, the instruction is there but they don’t want it.
Like trees under a woodmans axe, their day will come and they will not be able to lift a finger, for the retribution that will befall them.
“Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s ashrama was situated on the banks of the Ganga, and upon hearing “Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare” being chanted very loudly, Bhaktivinoda Thakura would know that Babaji Maharaja was coming. He would chant so loudly that his voice could be heard across the Ganga, and upon arrival at the ashrama, he would hear Shrimad-Bhagavatam and other krishna-katha from Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Babaji Maharaja didn’t associate with other babajis very much. Generally he would only wear a langoti and nothing more, but one day he begged a good quality dhoti, a kurta, a walking stick and a nice turban from someone. Wearing these, he went to Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s ashrama, and upon seeing him, Bhaktivinoda Thakura thought, “See how Babaji Maharaja’s appearance has changed! He has taken the ordinary dress of a grihastha. He is wearing nice clothes now and is carrying a walking stick like a landlord. What has happened to him?”
Babaji Maharaja offered pranama and sat down, and Bhaktivinoda Thakura asked him, “Babaji Maharaja, today I see that your appearance is of a different type. Why is this?”
Babaji Maharaja replied, “These days there are so many babajis, and many of them are such hooligans that if one even mentions their names it will be sinful. They are engaged in such misconduct that a grihastha is thousands of times superior to them. In the name of parakiya-bhajana they engage in mundane activities and they will all go to hell for it. When a babaji obtains some rasagullas or any good quality foodstuff, he should just offer it to a cow. Babajis should not go to any festival, but people invite them and off they go to these festivals simply to enjoy a good meal. Feeding the dogs of the dhama is more beneficial than feeding them. Therefore I think that I shouldn’t remain a babaji. I will wear the cloth of a grihastha, and then people will not look upon me as one of these babajis.”
Bhaktivinoda Thakura said, “You have spoken correctly.” At that time the misconduct of these babajis was so widespread that people hated to even hear the good Vaishnava name, so there was a necessity for a great personality who could preach the pure prema-dharma of Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the world. Then came such a great personality, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada. He preached sankirtana in such a way that in no time the world opinion had changed, and scholars, gentlemen and everyone began to accept vaishnava-dharma. If there had been no Gaura-kishora dasa Babaji, then there would have been no Prabhupada. And if there had been no Prabhupada, then the pure prema of Mahaprabhu would not be preached all around the world as it is now. Therefore the original great personality was our father’s father’s father, our great grandfather, Gaura-kishora dasa Babaji. Today with great pride we declare that he was the guru of our parama-guru, and it is our supreme good fortune that he came to this world.” – PureBhakti website re Srila Gaurakishore Babaji Thakura
August 29, 1967
Vrindaban, India
Letter to Hayagriva
“The principle should be that we utilize our talents for the service of the Lord. That is real sannyasa. Formal acceptance of sannyasa, as required for all old men, means that one should retire from materialistic life, and devote his time and energy for the service of the Lord. As you are devoted already to the service of the Lord, without any personal consideration, you are always sannyasa at heart.” .
“It is the greatest humanitarian welfare activities to the human society.”