Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. CC Adi 12.9 Purport):
The actual text of the conversation with Srila Prabhupada in his room, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana, India:
Srila Prabhupada: So, you are taking care of that conveyance?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, we are, SrilaPrabhupada.
Jayapataka: Because you are a paramahamsa, Srila Prabhupada, you are seeing everyone else as surrendered to Krsna. But only by your mercy, you are forcing us to serve Krsna.
Srila Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Srila Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Actually… Yes, SrilaPrabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Srila Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka’s name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, SrilaPrabhupada. His name was on that list.
Srila Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamala Krsna: Stopped doing what, SrilaPrabhupada?
Srila Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Giriraja: It’s clear.
Srila Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, SrilaPrabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.
Giriraja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.
Srila Prabhupada: Hm? Hm?
Giriraja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.
Srila Prabhupada: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven’t got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?
Giriraja: Yes.
Srila Prabhupada: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bhagavad Gita. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varnasrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavan: Everything is there very clearly in your books, SrilaPrabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: A man-made scheme-useless. Sattvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvavalambi-para-sattva-visuddha-sattvam…. From Brahma-samhita?
Rupanuga dasa’s statement: A Bengali gentleman has come from New York seeking initiation from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada has already deputed his ritvik acaryas and he thinks Jayapataka should do the initiation.
Note: Srila Prabhupada has not specifically told anyone to be a diksa-guru, only to act as officiating representative as per his July 9th Letter. Srila Prabhupada is only reconfirming what he had already established in his earlier directive of the July 9th 1977 Letter.
Rupanuga dasa’s statement: The key sentences here are not the ones containing the word “depute,” but rather the following: “I stop for the time being,” “And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again.”
Note: Classic word jugglery. After Srila Prabhupada has emphasized the word “deputee” in five different grammatical combinations, we are now being informed that this not the key point.
Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis is not only three times, but five times.
It is common understanding that in Vedic literatures, to emphasize an important point, it is done three times.
Srila Prabhupada says: “anything is uttered three times-“do it, do it, do it”-one should understand that this is meant to indicate great stress on a fact…” Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.9.20:
This verse repeats the word ‘eva’ [‘certainly’] three times for emphasis, and it also three times repeats ‘harer nama’ [‘the holy name of the Lord’], just to make common people understand.
PURPORT
To emphasize something to an ordinary person, one may repeat iit three times, just as one might say, “You must do this! You must do this! You must do this! Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Unrevised original edition) Adi-Lila 17.23
“This verse repeats the word ‘eva’ [‘certainly’] three times for emphasis, and it also three times repeats ‘harer nÄma’ [‘the holy name of the Lord’], just to make common people understand.
Srila Prabhupada: “…The Vedic literature, for emphasis, clearly states three times that in this age of Kali-kalau nÄsty eva nÄsty eva nÄsty eva-there is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative than harer nÄma Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.21.6
Note: Srila Prabhupada uses the word deputy five times referring to his prior nomination on July 9th 1977 of 11 officiating representatives to carry initiations on his behalf.
11 chosen devotees were only officiating representatives.
Srila Prabhupada’s repeated use of the word “deputee”five times is the key point of this conversation.
Rupanuga dasa’s statement:
“And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again.” “I stop for the time being” indicates that the ritvik appointments made three months earlier were necessary due to Srila Prabhupada’s condition, but he considered them temporary-to last until his own initiations could begin again. In other words, “for the time being” indicates Srila Prabhupada’s expectation of taking up initiations again in due course. “And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again,” indicates his hopeful intention to take up initiation duties again in the future.
Note: More speculative interpretation. Nowhere did Srila Prabhupada has ever said that the following: ”the ritvik appointments made three months earlier were necessary due to Srila Prabhupada’s condition, but he considered them temporary”. In other words, “for the time being” indicates Srila Prabhupada’s expectation of taking up initiations again in due course.
Fact: it is well known that Srila Prabhupada’s health at that time was not in the best condition. Although he is always fully transcendental and above the modes of nature, he had been bed ridden for several months, and his health had been deteriorating.
Fact: July 9th 1977. Srila Prabhupada had put in place an officiating representative system by his letter of July 1977. And he again reconfirmed his original intention of setting up an officiating representative system.
Fact: July 19th 1977:
Srila Prabhupada: So let us artificial activity. I think this is a nice arrangement.
Devotee: Upendra and I could see it for the last… [break]
Srila Prabhupada: And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to become rttvik and act on my charge. People are becoming sympathetic there. The place is very nice.
Devotee: Yeah. He says, “The introduction of Bhagavad-gita has been translated into Tamil, and I will have the second chapter done next. Then publish a small booklet for immediate distribution.”
Srila Prabhupada: Very good.
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, July 19, 1977, Vrndavana, India.
Srila Prabhupada is only indicating that his health is not good enough to carry on the ceremonials of the fire sacrifice etc. and that his deputies can do this on behalf, initiating his disciples by acting as his deputee representatives.
Srila Prabhupada was still and is still giving divyam-jnanam, the essence of diksa, and accepting disciples. All he is asking his disciples to do in this conversation is for his deputees, officiating representatives is to take up the process of (i) choosing the names of the new initiate; (ii) chanting on the japa beads on behalf of Srila Prabhupada; (iii) perform the fire sacrifice of the initiation on his behalf.
Srila Prabhupada always used specific terminology.
There is no mistake in Srila Prabhupada’s rhetorical arrangements.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta says:
“Mistakes, illusions, cheating and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritative sages.”
Purport
“…But there cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages… Srila Vyasadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyasadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements…”
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Unrevised 1975 edition- 1975 Adi-lila 2.86
Srila Prabhupada’s direction is the same s Krsna’s direction.
Srila Prabhupada says:
“… The spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord…”
Bhagavad-gita As It Is, (Unrevised 1972 edition) 10.3.
Srila Prabhupada never contradicts himself.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So contradiction means imperfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge means who sticks to his principles. That is perfect knowledge. One who does not stick to his original proposal, his knowledge is imperfect.
Philosophy Discussions: Discussions with Syamasundara dasa: Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz
If Srila Prabhupada had intended for his disciples to be full-fledged diksa-gurus by this conversation, why did he not use the specific words “diksa-guru” or acarya? He only used the word deputee. He was precise, and simply reconfirmed the last previous statement he had made on July 19, 1977: “continue to become a ritvik and act on my charge”.
Srila Prabhupada does not use the word (i) diksa-guru, (ii) successor guru, (ii) zonal guru, (iv) appointed guru, etc, he clearly uses the word deputy to emphasize that these 11 chosen devotees were only officiating representatives.
If Srila Prabhupada had intended to amend, modify, change, supplement or reverse his written directive (His “Final Order”) of July 9, 1977, “these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada… the newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada” and his reconfirmation on July 19, 1977 “continue to become a ritvik and act on my charge”, why did He not use the specific words diksa-guru or appointed guru, or successor guru or acarya?
List of names.
Srila Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
TamÄla Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Rupanuga dasa conveniently avoids one of the most important point in this whole conversation: the list of names.
And what is that list? The July 9th 1977 written directive approved by Srila Prabhupada, specifying the direct capacity in which the officiating representatives were to continue the officiating service to be done on His behalf.
Srila Prabhupada designated these 11 devotees to act as ritviks and did not indicate that after his departure they would be empowered to act as guru-acaryas, it must be accepted that ritvik representative was the authority he saw them fit to handle. His last written words were “act as rittvik representative of the acarya”. That is His order, his arrangement for continuation of the disciplic succession.
It has now become a fashion for the members and supporters of the self-appointed acarya party to quote Srila Prabhupada to contradict and defy Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada made his intentions and directions very clear in His directives of July 9 and July 19th 1977. There is no need for new interpretations.
A few historical notes.
Outside advice?
Rupanuga dasa and the GBC went to seek outside advice and clarification from Gaudiya Matha advisors in 1978.
Srila Prabhupada differs:
“You should not give attention to any outsider’s advice because they are completely unfit to give you advice..”
Srila Prabhupada Letter – March 9, 1969
“There is no need whatsoever for outside instruction..”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Gurukrpa and Yasoda nandana dasa, December 1973
“… he never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya . If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned…”
“…So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya…”
So Sridhar Maharaja was responsible for disobeying…
“We shall not make the same mistake in our ISKCON camp…
“They [Gaudiya matha] are very competent to harm our natural progress”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga dasa, April 1974
“…I have also read specifically your articles on the matter of acaryas, wherein on the 14th Paragraph I see the acharya shall be entitled to nominate in writing his successive acharya. But we do not find any record where our Srila Prabhupada nominated any acharya after Him. Different persons have interpreted on this point, and every one of our Godbrothers are acting as acharya, so this is a controversial point which I do not wish to enter into while we are proposing for cooperation …”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Swami B. S. Bhagavata Maharaja, Los Angeles
So where is the record of the so-called acarya appointment allegedly done by Srila Prabhupada and propagated by Rupanuga das and the GBC in 1978?
Clear as Mud?
Fact: The GBC and Rupanuga went to the Gaudiya Matha Nabadvipa advisor in March of 1978 to seek advice and clarification about the guru issue and how it should be implemented in ISKCON.
Rupanuga dasa, in knowledge of the above-referenced clear warnings by Srila Prabhupada, did not warn and alert devotees and the leaders of ISKCON about Srila Prabhupada’s prophetic letter. He went right along with the concocted acarya appointment. But now he wants all of us to believe that he understood Srila Prabhupada’s real intentions in October of 1977! Why did Rupanuga dasa and the GBC go to the Gaudiya Matha advisor, for clarification for something they now claim they had understood all along?
If, according to Rupanuga dasa and company, everything was so clear to them in October of 1978, as per the following conversation: Srila Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not? Giiriraja: It’s clear, then why did they jump to Nabadvipa to seek clarification from an outside advisor to seek clarification of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions? How did everything become so unclear within just a few months that they felt that had to go to the Gaudiya Matha advisor to seek clarification? Another unresolved mystery!
Convenient Amnesia
Srila Prabhupada had already warned Rupanuga dasa about the history of the Gaudiya Matha in April of 1974. Had Rupanuga dasa conveniently forgotten the April 28, 1974 personal letter from Srila Prabhupada and His warnings about Sridhar Maharaja’s role in destroying the Gaudiya Matha and their unauthorized acarya appointment?
Consultation with Higher Authorities?
Further, in March of 1978, at the Mayapur festival, Rupanuga dasa and the GBC issued a position paper to explain the process of future initiations for ISKCON. Under the title of the position paper was placed “In Consultation with Higher Authorities”. So why did Rupanuga dasa and company have to consult with “Higher Authorities” in March of 1978, just a few months after they had allegedly understood Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions in the matter of initiations in October of 1977? More unresolved mysteries!
And who are these so-called higher authorities? And when did Srila Prabhupada ever instruct us to go consulting other higher authorities than Him for the conduct of the missionary activities of His movement?
1978 Guru appointment hoax
Following the Mayapur festival in March of 1978, a worldwide propaganda campaign was orchestrated by Rupanuga dasa and the GBC to attempt to convince the ISKCON devotees that Srila Prabhupada had appointed 11 gurus who were his true successors, that these 11 were pure devotees, uttama adhikaris, and that Srila Prabhupada had personally appointed these pure devotee diksa-gurus in May and July of 1977, as his true successors pure devotees acaryas.
Mythology Revival
The secretary himself admitted the guru appointment myth in December of 1980 in Topanga Canyon, California. He clearly admitted in a quasi-public forum that the idea that Srila Prabhupada had appointed 11 gurus was a myth and that Srila Prabhupada had never appointed any gurus.
It should be noted that these important conversations with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada were not released by the GBC for many years after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. Why not?
This new grammatical jugglery and interpretation is simply another attempt to revive the same old Guru appointment myth in a different format and avoid the order of the acarya Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada did not use the word diksa guru, acarya, appointed guru, appointed successor, etc He was very consistent by use of the word deputee in five different grammatical variations.
Historical facts
By June of 1977, Srila Prabhupada had already removed himself from the choosing of the names of the new initiates, the chanting on the beads, the performing of the fire sacrifice but he was still the diksa-guru of the new initiates and was to remain the diksa-guru. Sri Prabhupada never gave the order to any of these 11 or 111 disciples to actually be diksa-gurus in the last few months of 1977. The current Rupanuga dasa interpretation and all of the post 1977 GBC interpretations of these various conversations are simply an attempt at mythology revival and avoiding the order of the acarya, as per his clear directive of July 9th 1977.
When was Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 order changed or modified by Srila Prabhupada himself? When was the specific order to any of his disciples to be diksa-guru ever given after May 28 1977?
It is a fact that Rupanuga dasa and company’s post 1977 propaganda campaign throughout ISKCON, coupled with the GBC‘s iron fisted approach, conveyed myth and falsehood that the 11 had been appointed by Srila Prabhupada as diksa-gurus?
While it is certainly noble of Rupanuga dasa to enlighten us with his new current interpretation, it should not be forgotten that he was one of the original GBCs who vociferously supported and preached the appointment hoax and myth for many years.
While this new interpretation after 32 years seems to be an interesting pious belief, can he now publicly answer as to when these original 11 were ever appointed or selected by Srila Prabhupada as diksa-gurus When? Where? How?
Has anything been learned from the post 1936 and post 1977 appointment guru fiasco and the Maha-bhagavata assembly line of the GBC?
Srila Prabhupada had already warned a few months earlier about the dreaded personal ambition disease that destroyed the Gaudiya Matha:
Srila Prabhupada warns about the result of manufacturing?
Result of suppressing Guru.
Result of ambition to take the place of guru.
Srila Prabhupada: We haven’t got to manufacture. To manufacture ideas is troublesome. Why should we take the trouble? And as soon as you want to manufacture something to my…., that is DANGEROUS. …That you are singing every day, “what our guru has said, that is our life and soul.” …As soon as this POISON will come-suppress guru and I become Brahman-everything FINISHED. Spiritual life is finished. Gaudiya Matha finished, …VIOLATED the orders of Guru Maharaja. …And as soon as you manufacture, fall down. This manufacturing idea is very, very dangerous in spiritual life. …Our mission is to serve bhakta visesa and live with devotees. NOT THAT YOU TAKE THE PLACE OF GURU.. THAT IS NONSENSE, VERY DANGEROUS. Then everything will be spoiled. As soon as you become AMBITIOUS to TAKE THE PLACE of GURU-gurusuh nara matih. That is MATERIAL DISEASE.
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April 1977 Bombay, India
Srila Prabhupada’s warning about concocting whimsically
Srila Prabhupada defines preaching
“So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don’t do that. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah . If you remain blind, don’t try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective.
Conversations with Srila Prabhupada, 2 May, 1976, Fiji:
Srila Prabhupada warns about proceeding on the wrong platform
What will be the result of the wrong platform?
“So, on the wrong platform you may go-go forward more and more-but it will be dismantled, because it is wrong.”
<!–[endif]–>
Lecture 6-5-74
Srila Prabhupada warns about contradictory philosophy
DISCIPLE: One day they say one thing. One day they say something else.
PRABHUPADA: That means rascal. Room Conversation 2-23-75
Srila Prabhupada explains how will questions be answered?
“Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70
What will be the result of the wrong platform?
“So, on the wrong platform you may go-go forward more and more-but it will be dismantled, because it is wrong.”
Lecture 6-5-74
DISCIPLE: One day they say one thing. One day they say something else.
PRABHUPADA: That means rascal.
Room Conversation 2-23-75
“If you cannot express, if you do not understand. Simply people wants jugglery of words, they don’t want substance. They don’t want substance. That is the difficulty in the mod…, in the present age..”
Lectures: Philosophy Discussions: Discussions with Hayagriva dasa: Karl Marx
It is interesting to note that Rupanuga dasa did not challenge this article when Sridhar Maharaja was exposed.
This article below covers proof of the Ritvik initiation system of formality and the six accompanying articles within in depth:
Diksa is given by Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) – refer to CC Madhya 24.330 and SB 10.2.18. Diksa is not given by conditioned souls appointed by GBC/pretending as “gurus” as is current practice in ISKCON. All these conditioned soul “gurus” can give at the most is formality – that’s all. Nothing more. It appears Rupanuga Prabhu is thinking that these conditioned soul “gurus” are Maha Bhagavatas and therefore capable of giving Diksa. He has no clear understanding of what Diksa is.
Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
(originally posted 15 March 2009)
Granted, the conversation of the recorded message of Srila Prabhupada mentioned under the discussion of this article was released way later.
However, there were some of the few DEVOTEES – Sanyassi and Temple President such as Gurukripa dasa Prabhu and Yasodananadan dasa Prabhu who knew very well what was going on within Iskcon Management, did they bring up and / or broadcast this important issue to various Temples around the world what was taking place then amongst the 11 named persons ?
If they did, then, can some body please post that broadcast ?
If they did not broadcast what was going on and taking place within the 11 named persons in Srila Prabhupada Institution defying His order to the other Temple Presidents around the world, then, why did they NOT do it ?
I am simply curious to know about it as I have not read any such writings neither from Gurukripa dasa Prabhu or Yasodanandan dasa Prabhu or any one else in this regard.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada > Books > Sri Caitanya-caritamrta – 1975 > Cc. Adi-lila > Adi 12 > Adi 12.10
TEXT 10
ācāryera mata yei, sei mata sāra
tāṅra ājñā laṅghi’ cale, sei ta’ asāra
SYNONYMS
ācāryera—of the spiritual master (Advaita Prabhu); mata—opinion; yei—what is; sei—that; mata—opinion; sāra—active principle; tāṅra—his; ājñā—order; laṅghi’-transgressing; cale—becomes; sei—that; ta’-however; asāra—useless.
TRANSLATION
The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.
PURPORT
Here is the opinion of Śrīla Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.
Note: July 9th 1977 Ritvik System is ORDER from Srila Prabhupada. Deny this and your spiritual life is FINISHED! Simple as THAT:
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
Amar Puri: However, there were some of the few DEVOTEES — Sanyassi and Temple President such as Gurukripa dasa Prabhu and Yasodananadan dasa Prabhu who knew very well what was going on within Iskcon Management, did they bring up and / or broadcast this important issue to various Temples around the world what was taking place then amongst the 11 named persons ?
If they did, then, can some body please post that broadcast ?
If they did not broadcast what was going on and taking place within the 11 named persons in Srila Prabhupada Institution defying His order to the other Temple Presidents around the world, then, why did they NOT do it ?
++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: I do not know why Grukripa went over to Gaudiya Matha. But here is just some history to explain what happened: Yasodanandana Prabhu told me long time back they were mistreated and driven out of ISKCON. Many devotees were driven away by the goons who wanted to OCCUPY Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa Guru Position. It was about POSITION, CONTROL, POWER, MONEY, PROPERTIES, GRABING DISCIPLES(SLAVES). Aside from that, Yasodanandana in 1980s also produced some papers exposing Anti Ritviks and he sent to me this along with some other documents/letters which I passed to Krishnakant that set the ball rolling when he penned The Final Order. Earlier in 1980’s hardly anyone knew of July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order from Srila Prabhupada. There was no Internet. We mailed MANY MANY MANY Ritvik based papers from UK to the whole world. Literally THOUSANDS of copies went ALL OVER THE WORLD which included the July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order. Wherever we saw a devotee name it was posted. We EVEN posted/distributed to MANY congregation members. NOW, “Ritvik” is a HOUSEHOLD NAME and it is certainly very WONDERFUL to see that SO MANY devotees are accepting Srila Prabhupada as OUR CURRENT DIKSA GURU with July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order AND PREACHING TO OTHERS. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU and HIS JULY 9TH 1977 RITVIK ORDER! Hare Krsna!
I was the first person to call out Rupanuga(not a frigging prabhu) on his felonious conclusion to this conversation when it was posted on the sun yrs ago. the sun did not publish it.
rtvik-schmitvik, the bottom line and mind of the guru in this conversation is varnasrama dharma, not initiation. initiation is secondary and lead to the actual heart of the matter of DVD as the bottom line to our society.
formal initiation is as secondary to this spiritual movement as farming is to understanding DVD. devotees constantly put the cart in front of the horse, then spend yrs marveling at the shire useless result of that action. Thought never improving/changing. Yet expecting a different result. Even thought no change to the original scheme.. and no ability to recognize the faultily actions of implying Rtvik as a fix all!!!
Prabhupada dose not say rtvik will fix a broken society, but DVD will.
like always you good old boys miss the forest for the trees.thousands of DVD references in our books and you focus on initiations. useless wast of time for the last 4 decades
Srila Prabhupada: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven’t got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?
Giriraja: Yes.
Srila Prabhupada: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bhagavad Gita. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varnasrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavan: Everything is there very clearly in your books, SrilaPrabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: A man-made scheme-useless. Sattvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvavalambi-para-sattva-visuddha-sattvam…. From Brahma-samhita?
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti: Prabhupada dose not say rtvik will fix a broken society, but DVD will.
Mahesh: WITHOUT the Initiator Acarya Srila Prabhupada there is NO Daiva Varnasrama. Hence, FIRST requirement is the Ritvik System Order of Srila Prabhupada July 9th 1977 that he IS the initiator AND the disciples are HIS. This CLEAR understanding is the FIRST requirement:
760306SB.MAY Lectures
So this is the process. Tava bhrtya-seva. We have to… Adau gurvasrayam. FIRST BEGINNING of Vaisnava life is to accept guru, spiritual master, adau gurvasrayam, THEN OTHER THINGS. Because who will teach you?
SC 8 Religion
The Vaisnava principles enjoin, adau gurv-asrayam: THE FIRST STEP in understanding spiritual knowledge is to take shelter of a bona fide guru.
Note: you can not put a cart before the horse. Horse first THEN the cart. Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya, Sudra are four varnas but they have to take instruction. So WHOSE instruction? The INITIATOR Srila Prabhupada’s hence Guru comes FIRST. July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order FIRST then talk of Varna and Asrama because without Guru Srila Prabhupada THE INITIATOR there is NO VARNASRAMA.
Mahesh: WITHOUT the Initiator Acarya Srila Prabhupada there is NO Daiva Varnasrama. Hence, FIRST requirement is the Ritvik System Order of Srila Prabhupada July 9th 1977 that he IS the initiator AND the disciples are HIS. This CLEAR understanding is the FIRST requirement:
so YOU say, where does Prabhupada say like this??? Where are the quotes to support your conclusion over what Prabhupada has said in this conversation about DVD?? And in a thousand other places in our vani!
Sounds like just another ‘con’ and in line with what I have heard for the last 40 yrs. Same old shite in a new package I say bullocks!! PRABHUPADA CLEARLY SAYS NO OTHER SCHEME WILL WORK AND THAT INCLUDES THIS MAN MADE RTVIK SCHEME AS YOU PRESENT IT
there is no lack to Srila Prabhupada’s presents for all that accept. First requirement is the spiritual master, then follow ALL the instructions. Once accepting—-then following—once following– then follow ALL the instructions as they apply. By the first yr!
you good old rtvik boys have gone astray and follow as you like. I call that sahajiya. Especially directly negating that which Prabhupada has emphasized in all our vani. DVD being the biggest rejection scam you good old boys have done forever. nsence I joined this sinister movement in 1974
Prabhupada left out of shear repulsion at the condition that his movement had fallen to. the worst poison imaginable, a rot from the inside! why stay longer???
nor is there a requirement for formal initiation before following DVD anywhere spoken about. Acceptance and following supersedes all formality. Prabhupada himself says he considered that Srila Bhaktisidhanta was his guru LONG before any formality took place. That acceptance IS initiation.
So initiation is there. Now where is the following all the instructions as they are without interpolation??
Also, we are sanatanas! as Prabhupada has called us. Because we follow both definitions of this word. One is the spiritual side the other is DVD. No where does he coin the expression ‘Prabhupadanuga. So again I say man made concoctions. Like the mudhra form your Prabhupada deities have. just more and more deviations.
.
I would like to add that you good old boys have been chanting your excuses like a mantra for 20 yrs!!! you now have hundreds of thousands of ‘followers’!! More like a million as I have been told. Yet you speak as if no one is following this rtvik instruction!
So just when do all these rtvik initiated devotee(claimed followers of Srila Prabhupada’s vani) begin to divide by guna and karma as told to by Srila Prabhupada?
20 yrs of rtvik effort, a million followers, hundreds of millions of $, is not enough to NOW imbibe DVD???
BULLOCKS!!!! sudras and vaisyas are in charge where brahmanas and ksatriyas should be. same as it ever was, nothing new here.
Dear Mahesh,
Considering the context of Caturbahu Das’ preaching over the years, I am certain you are missing his point. He would not disagree with what you just wrote because that is logical and obvious.
I believe his point is that there are already many devotees who are already convinced of Ritvik. And they have defended the ritvik position for a long time, describing it completely in detail, to where there can be no mistake about it for an honest person. These convincing arguments can be found easily all over the internet. There are even a few temples that conduct ritvik initiations.
But none of the devotees who have taken part in this ritvik defense project have come together, divided their efforts according to their individual status within their current realized varna and asrama. Even in the temples conducting ritvik initiations, there is a complete lack of recognition and mention of DVD.
Caturbahu das claims his realization to be that Srila Prabhupada himself realized in the end that the only way his disciples would have any success at cooperating to enact Sankirtana WITH ANY LONG TERM STEADINESS AND CONTINUITY, would be under the DVD scheme as painstakingly detailed by Prabhupada himself in his Books and Conversations.
RCB appears to recognize an over-emphasis of ritvik preaching among devotees even to the point of beating a dead horse, at the expense of discussing how devotees might begin to assess their current varna and asrama and then come together to push on the movement from that platform. Which would of course include Ritvik initiation once DVD groups were established and there were new people to initiate.
I believe that is what you are missing from RCB’s preaching, but am sure he will correct me or elaborate as he sees fit.
Hare Krsna
Amar Puri prabhu,that the devotees who were aware of the GBC Gurus plan and did no public action to expose the GBC ‘s intentions,it should not be of much importance,since at that time,there was overwhelming faith in the GBC and any attempt to disagree with the GBC,was met with doubts,not on the GBC,but on the devotees concerned. Pradyumna did wrote about the inconsistencies at that time. Jashoda and Pradyumna were a two Man tam only.
Well, it looks like I didn’t need to write anything in Caturbahu das’ defense. His last 2 comments weren’t posted when I wrote my most recent comment and covered what I said. I am used to commenting on forums where your post goes directly up, and the moderator will take it down later if it is offensive.
With this automatic moderation format, there is no way to know if your comment will be irrelevant because there can be a dozen comments made before you that have not been posted yet.
For some reason I can’t imagine that people who post to this site could write something so terrible that it could not sit here for a few hours and just be taken down later. This automatic moderation makes for a disjointed and difficult conversation. Just a thought. Hare Krsna!
William Prabhu, it is good to hear from you after such a long time.
I wish to bring back the clock at that time when Guru Kripa Prabhu, then, the President of Vrindaban Temple together with other devotees who perhaps knew what was going on and taking place amongst the GBC leaders particularly the time when Tamala Krishna and others demanded the guru respect in the Vrindaban Temple to which Guru Kripa Prabhu, then the President there opposed it as written in one of his article in which he disagreed wholeheartedly to extend respect as good as Srila Prabhupada to Tamala and others as I read it on this web site. That was the time Guru Kripa Prabhu and others could have done some thing to save the situation at that very beginning of it. At that time of very beginning, the faith in the GBC was not strong and no attempt to disagree with the GBC was met with doubts amongst the devotees concerned. That is my point, William Prabhu.
Anyway, the cat ( GBC guru issue ) is out and becoming more and more complex creating full of confusion by the old people having vested personal interest duly supporting and following the cat (GBC gurus ) in order to bewilder the new comers in their present Iskcon system.
However, we the followers of Srila Prabhupada – VANI having lost LOVE AND TRUST in each other are not strong enough to unite each other.
That is why there are so much opposition in different Prabhupadanuga CAMP leaders as well as different individuals addressing their respective comments which are read here on this post under discussion.
Only an expert well qualified – dedicated Prabhupadanuga Leader free from all desire is able to unite us all through his Love and Trust in serving Srila Prabhupada mission.
May the blessings of Srila Prabhupada be upon us ALL.
Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.
William ACBSP. Are you saying that devotees such as Yasodanandan, Gurukripa, Puranjana and yourself took no action to expose the abuses, deviations and takeover of the GBC “gurus” as it was not important because the general devotees may have doubted you? Please clarify. I have heard that after Prabhupada’s disappearance Puranjana wanted to be GBC for Ireland.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti : No where does he coin the expression ‘Prabhupadanuga
“A devotee should have intelligence to know who is deviating. SURRENDER BY YOUR INTELLIGENCE BUT DON’T SURRENDER YOUR INTELLIGENCE.” (SP to Bali Mardana, 1974)
Mahesh: You have to USE your intelligence. Anuga means FOLLOWER and we FOLLOW Srila Prabhupada hence we ARE Prabhupadanugas. By using the Prabhupadanuga term we separate ourselves from those that are worshipers of ANTI RITVIK CONDITIONED SOUL Baboons posing as Diksa guru in ISKCON:
Madhya 9.136 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’ s Travels to the Holy Places
ANUGA–FOLLOWER;
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: WITHOUT the Initiator Acarya Srila Prabhupada there is NO Daiva Varnasrama. Hence, FIRST requirement is the Ritvik System Order of Srila Prabhupada July 9th 1977 that he IS the initiator AND the disciples are HIS. This CLEAR understanding is the FIRST requirement:
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti : so YOU say, where does Prabhupada say like this??? Where are the quotes to support your conclusion over what Prabhupada has said in this conversation about DVD?? And in a thousand other places in our vani!
Mahesh: USE your INTELLIGENCE Prabhu. Whilst it is TRUE that ANYONE who reads Srila Prabhupada’s books IS Initiated still it is FACT that Srila Prabhupada introduced the FORMALITIES 1st and 2nd Initiations in ISKCON. So WHY 2nd Initiation? Because 2nd Initiation is BRAHMANA initiation when is one serious.
Without a Brahmana there is NO Varnasrama. Hence Brahmana is also PART AND PARCEL of Varnasrama Catur Varna means there HAS to be ALL FOUR ie. Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra. If DVD has to function then there NEEDS to be Brahmana INITIATION (2nd Initiation). Now, if there is NO Ritvik Initiation then WHERE is the Brahmana going to come from TO MAKE the DVD? Fall from the sky?
Furthermore, this Brahmana Issue has been FULLY covered here already so please read:
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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B.Mark says: RCB appears to recognize an over-emphasis of ritvik preaching among devotees even to the point of beating a dead horse, at the expense of discussing how devotees might begin to assess their current varna and asrama and then come together to push on the movement from that platform. Which would of course include Ritvik initiation once DVD groups were established and there were new people to initiate
Mahesh: The FACT is Varnasrama although ESSENTIAL is NOT easy in this age:
SB 7.2.12 P Hiranyakasipu, King of the Demons
The picture of a proper human civilization is indirectly described here. In a perfect human civilization there must be a class of men fully trained as perfect brahmanas. Similarly, there must be ksatriyas to rule the country very nicely according to the injunctions of the sastras, and there must be vaisyas who can protect the cows. The word gavah indicates that cows should be given protection. Because the Vedic civilization is lost, cows are not protected, but instead indiscriminately killed in slaughterhouses. Such are the acts of demons. Therefore this is a demoniac civilization. THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA MENTIONED HERE IS ESSENTIAL FOR HUMAN CIVILIZATION. UNLESS THERE IS A BRAHMANA TO GUIDE, A KSATRIYA TO RULE PERFECTLY, AND A PERFECT VAISYA TO PRODUCE FOOD AND PROTECT THE COWS, HOW WILL PEOPLE LIVE PEACEFULLY? IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
TLK Vs 30 Perfect Knowledge Through Surrender
The process of approaching and understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead was also discussed between Ramananda Raya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. First, Ramananda Raya explained the process in terms of varnasrama-dharma. He said first of all that human life is meant for approaching Lord Visnu through the rules and regulations governing varnasrama-dharma. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU REPLIED THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT IN THIS AGE TO EXECUTE THE RULES AND REGULATIONS OF VARNASRAMA-DHARMA. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO BE A BRAHMANA IN THIS AGE, AND IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REVIVE THE OLD VARNASRAMA-DHARMA CULTURE. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU THEREFORE SAID THAT THIS METHOD IS NOT VERY PRACTICAL.
TLK Vs 14 Bhakti-yoga: The Supreme Yoga System
suci haya muci haya yadi krsna tyaje
muci haya suci haya yadi krsna-bhaje
If one takes to Krsna consciousness, even if he is born in a family of a cobbler (muci), he becomes greater than a brahmana (suci). However, if one is born in a brahmana family and gives up Krsna consciousness, he becomes a muci, a cobbler. Thus the door of devotion is open to everyone, whoever he may be. Krsna Himself says that regardless of one’s position, if one takes shelter of Him, one can approach the supreme destination.
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te ‘pi yanti param gatim
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination.” (Bg. 9.32) And Sukadeva Gosvami says:
kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah
“Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha, Yavana and the Khasa races and even others who are addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.” (Bhag. 2.4.18) Krsna consciousness is so complete that it is all-embracing. Everyone has an occupational duty as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, but one does not have to give up his occupational duty to take to Krsna consciousness. And if one takes to Krsna consciousness but does not succeed, what has he lost? Even if he falls down, there is no loss. On the other hand, if a man perfectly performs his own duties (sva-dharma) but is not Krsna conscious, what does he gain? There is actually no gain. Kapiladeva explains that once one takes to the path of bhakti-yoga, one never actually falls down. Once begun, bhakti-yoga continues, even if one temporarily falls down. One is given another chance by taking birth in a good family, either in a wealthy family, a learned family or a brahmana family. If one executes his duties as a brahmana, Visnu will be very pleased, and if one executes his duties perfectly as a ksatriya or sudra, Visnu will also be very pleased. One does not have to change one’s position. In Bhagavad-gita (18.46) Sri Krsna says that every man can become perfect by following his qualities of work:
yatah pravrttir bhutanam
yena sarvam idam tatam
sva-karmana tam abhyarcya
siddhim vindati manavah
“By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection.” Thus if one executes his duties as a perfect ksatriya, vaisya, sudra or whatever, Visnu will be pleased. The purpose of work is to please Visnu. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS. VARNASRAMA-DHARMA, THE VEDIC SYSTEM OF SOCIETY, IS THEREFORE VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT IT IS MEANT TO GIVE HUMAN BEINGS A CHANCE TO PERFECT THEIR LIVES BY PLEASING KRSNA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS AGE. THEREFORE CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, JUST TO GIVE RELIEF TO THE ROTTING, CONDITIONED SOULS OF THIS AGE OF KALI-YUGA, HAS GIVEN US THE MAHA-MANTRA.
harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:
prayenalpayusah sabhya
kalav asmin yuge janah
mandah sumanda-matayo
manda-bhagya hy upadrutah
“O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.” (Bhag. 1.1.10) In this age, there will be insufficient rainfall and food, and the government will plunder one’s income by heavy taxation. All of these characteristics of Kali-yuga are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. People will become so disgusted that they will suddenly leave their wife and children and go to the forest. HOW CAN THE PEACEFUL VARNASRAMA-DHARMA BE REVIVED WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO HARASSED IN THIS AGE? IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED. The whole aim of bhakti-yoga is to satisfy Visnu. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih: Visnu, Krsna, came Himself as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us the way of sankirtana.
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(SPL 69.10.08) Srila Prabhupada:
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Thank you Bk Mark, nicely said as usual
But I call bullocks on the idea that rtvik initiation is a key element to ‘fix’ the inequities of this Hare Krsna movement. same with the so-called DOM. just sahajiya speculation. Like the guru business inside the ‘CON
I came to Prabhupada 40 yrs ago to live in a DVD movement and in all that time it has NOT transpired because of BAD following, sahajism, and smarta brahmana gibberish by demoniac leaders hell bent on NEVER imbibing DVD.
40 yrs says you and yours are cheaters
Where are the quotes from Prabhupada Mahesh that says rtvik first??
Prabhupada said DVD now in 1974(no talk about initiation was included) and in our books you’ll profess to follow perfectly(or at least better than your cult composition in IS-A-CON).
When Srila Prabhupada talks about DVD, there is NEVER a cross reference mention about initiations first or at all
SB. 8.2.30 (purport)
“Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.” (END)
Nope, no rtvik or initiations spoken here!!
BG. 4.13
TRANSLATION
According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.
No rtvik here either, also sans initiation
So Mahesh (the great quote master of the folio) show me the quotes that DIRECTLY address rtvik as the all important instruction scheme you say it is. No DVD until——–when???
I was told by a rtvik 20 yrs ago that DVD would be an all important topic of preaching in the ‘Nuga cult. so far just BULLOCKS!! Then and now!!
Oh and if a brahmana does not tell the truth or speaks in half truths he is NOT a brahamana. Silence in the face of great social turmoil (as our movement has gone through)is also just as bad and an act unbecoming of that high varna.
Again he becomes a mouse!!
If there is no DVD, then how does anyone become an actually qualified brahmana?? we are all sudra?? then how could you even think Krsna would come into the murti form, when these unqualified pretender’s can only put on a show bottle act??
I call that idol worship
Because the majority of personalities within the “devotee community” are Kanistha Adhikari (or Dharmadvaji) the prospect of speaking the truth is a very daunting one. It is reasonable to assume that Madhyama Adhikari devotees (who are in much smaller numbers) are quick to accept the truth as they can DISTINGUISH between what platform others are on (and him/herself) and who are pretenders/Dharmadvaji (cheaters and cheated).
There’s a saying that …..”Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise!” So it is a bit like ‘going over the top’ in trench warfare and beying peppered with machine-gun fire. The whole world is run by demons and it is generally ‘the cheated’ who will dislike beying told that their ‘leaders’ are actually cheating them because they (the cheated) are themselves Dharmadvaji, or even if they are kanistha they are at best ‘bewildered!’
It is better to increase the consciousness of society ‘jncrementally’ as all that is required is the Acharya and Maha Mantra. Temple worship just creates institutionalism, parochialism, pratistha, envy, and separatism, and a culture of slavery. Better to have an VEHICLE to promote ‘science of self realisation’, book distribution, prasadam distribution, and madhukari. In the western countries especially, people are always attracted to museums (and with pay a small fee) THIS IS THE KEY TO ENABLE EVERYTHING ELSE TO BE FUNDED as it is a public space; people are not put off by ‘Religeous Difference’. If you ‘START’ with a temple you have already ELIMINATED 95% of your potential visitors.
Forget DVD! In the age of Kali EVERYONE is sudra. or lower. To CHANGE society, you have to EDUCATE society, To EDUCATE society you need to ATTRACT them! To do this VEDIC MUSEUM is required………Then you automatically create MADHUKARI!. Without funds you CAN’T DO ANYTHING.
Only in India can you create funding by Temple, but you also need Sales Executives (this is how they are advertised in Bangalore!) to collect from door to door. I did this for 16 years selling paintings/t shirts and for what? Now temple are run by Demons! Where is the EDUCATION of public? NOWWHERE!
I mentioned to a young person at Council Office the other day “I am Hare Krishna”, she replied “what is that!”. She didn’t know what that is! How does a “temple” that ONLY ATTRACTS HINDUS have any relevance to society in general? In every universe there is a designer (Brahma) Where there is no Brahma then Sri Krishna Himself plays the part of Brahma. Srila Prabhupada constantly changed things. When something was ‘not working’ he would change it. This is what is required. Always ensuring that the ‘contents’ were the same but always changing the ‘packaging’ or presentation. If you don’t have a plan then you don’t have a future. The upliftment of society depends upon the society in general, not the leaders. Srila Prabhupadas’ DEMOGRAPHIC was EVERYBODY not just politicians, socialites and mundane theologians.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti : No where does he coin the expression ‘Prabhupadanuga
“A devotee should have intelligence to know who is deviating. SURRENDER BY YOUR INTELLIGENCE BUT DON’T SURRENDER YOUR INTELLIGENCE.” (SP to Bali Mardana, 1974)
Mahesh: You have to USE your intelligence. Anuga means FOLLOWER and we FOLLOW Srila Prabhupada hence we ARE Prabhupadanugas. By using the Prabhupadanuga term we separate ourselves from those that are worshipers of ANTI RITVIK CONDITIONED SOUL Baboons posing as Diksa guru in ISKCON:
Madhya 9.136 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’ s Travels to the Holy Places
ANUGA–FOLLOWER;
You are kidding right?? this is no answer to anything. Where does Prabhupada call us ‘Prabhupadanuga’? is the question: honest answer is ‘no where’.
Yet he does call us ‘sannatanas’
Without a Brahmana there is NO Varnasrama
You have no brahmana?? there are no ‘nuga devotees that claim to be brahmana?? This is just to pathetic!
Prabhupada is MY brahmana and he is here and now. He called for DVD in 1974. and it is the ksatriya that is the doer, not a brahmana. You and yours reject DVD for so many reasons like children. If your brahaman is not as Prabhupada then he is a fake, useless and should be rejected from that varna.
Hence Brahmana is also PART AND PARCEL of Varnasrama Catur Varna means there HAS to be ALL FOUR ie. Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra. If DVD has to function then there NEEDS to be Brahmana INITIATION (2nd Initiation). Now, if there is NO Ritvik Initiation then WHERE is the Brahmana going to come from TO MAKE the DVD? Fall from the sky?
Thousands of rtvik initiations is yet NOT enough?? and what so-called brahmanas are performing these rites?? OH!! the same ones that reject DVD but claim the highest varna. BULLOCKS!!
LOL, then for you Prabhupada is nothing reliant in the every day world you inhabit. The essential brahmana is Prabhupada. For me, I consult him daily! Moment by moment. Also there is no ‘need’ for initiations. Yes brahmana is needed, but not for the reasons you state. and if that ‘brahamana’ does not preach DVD then he is no friend to vedic culture. so I reject him as sudra.
And if you have no brahamana then who are YOU following now?? Who are the nuga leaders?? local sudras and vaisyas?? Yes this is what passes as brahmana these days. if not brahmana, then why the heck do you follow them?? I’m thinking stupid is as stupid does
And this is just to stupid to believe.
Lastly(because I’m not going through this whole post like this) where in the Bhagavada-gita is initiation as part of DVD?? 4.13 does NOT mention this hogwash you spew and you have not referenced an exact quote or even something that could be triangulated as such.
Plus (and this is the bottom line) Prabhupada has said to do this Vedic culture(DVD) in our movement. All arguments after that show the person to reject the guru’s instructions. So how can I give respect to such persons that reject Prabhupada?? these are demons, not brahmana. All excuses are actually rejection of the vani.
Mahesh: The FACT is Varnasrama although ESSENTIAL is NOT easy in this age:
this is cowardly!! It is the instruction, I have not invented one thing. So get over it and act on it or do NOT claim adherence to Prabhupada’s vani.
The quotes you give are irrelevant to the subject/instruction at hand. this is a relevant quote…………………
SB. 8.2.30 purport
“Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krsna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krsna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.”
Using Prabhupada to defeat Prabhupada is a sign of gross immaturity. the quotes you posted are irrelevant to the instruction to have DVD in Iskcon. And any argument against DVD is heresy(religious belief or practice contrary to orthodox opinion…..orthodox as in an instruction/opinion from Prabhupada)
Hare Krsna Sudarsana
Forget DVD!
NO!!!! that is NOT the instruction from Srila Prabhupada
Hey Bk Mark you hit the nail on the head. No problem for delayed posts.
I think the essential idea I’m trying to make here is that these claimed followers of Srila Prabhupada actually follow the exact social paradigm that has been the sinister movements invention. Srila Prabhupada always knew they were cheating. In 1974 he called them out in the March conversations on the 12th and 14th conversations.(are we the only ones reading this stuff?) The purports took on a different tone also, as we see in the famous SB. 8.2.30 purport
You know, this is for the choir.
That was when I came to him, as a DVD disciple, made from the Bhagavad-gita by reading only. I give little importance to the formality of initiation. No ceremony will effect a change if the recipient is not already initiated in his heart. Just a dog and pony show from that person is what you will see.
And in 40 yrs I have seen a lot of that. The history of this fragmented devotee social quagmire proves it!
Like this from Sudarsana whom has the gonads to say “Forget DVD” absolutely in direct opposition to Prabhupada. So I say FORGET this so-call servant of “Sudarsana” as a heretic and sahajiya cheater for such belligerent statements against Srila Prabhupada whom fanatically stays in line with out previous acaryas and says DVD NOW!!
Does this person even READ Prabhupada’s books???
SB 5.1.24 purport
“Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.”
Has he read this conversation that took place on Feb 14th, 1977?? Or is he like this Mahesh guy that just shoots from the hip for his cheating brahamanas and claims chanting is all we need?
Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13]. So we are Krsna…, preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada…
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The… People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and…, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.
AND MORE FROM THAT SAME CONVERSATION
“Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform…
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is…
Prabhupada: That is… Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: …brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You’ll be ha…
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then…
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: …unless one is…
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: …inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam… [Bg. 18.46]. He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.”(END)
I say those that would reject DVD, like we see these so-call leaders doing in this conversation, are NOT actually followers of Srila Prabhupada. Has to be they are disciples of the sinister movement Prabhupada recognized in 1970
and this sinister movement is perpetuated by rejection of DVD in ALL the devotee cults.
It is true that there are already initiated brahmanas and they are the ones to preach and institute DVD amongst devotees. It is a straw man argument to claim that ritvik initiations must come “first”, or to utilize the phenomenon of formal initiation in any way as part of an argument against immediately dividing devotee labor according to varna and asrama. The only reason not to is because whoever the leader is is not able to discern DVD amongst those he leads. All excuses are just that really. Better to admit the true inability than to make excuses.
Of course wherever there are brahmanas, they will be initiating devotees. And they will initiate as ritviks. This has been understood for decades. The only possible explanation for why no ritvik group has been successful in the long term at expanding into many satellite temples, acquiring tracts of land for agrarian use and to support householders in simple cottage industry, is because they failed to understand and implements the only management scheme Srila Prabhupada ordered to accomplish the task. DVD. He was so detailed in his presentation of DVD that a devotee compiled a 300+ page book entitled “Make Vrdnavana” made up strictly of DVD quotes.
DVD is the proverbial elephant in the room, and all the blind neophytes are touching different parts of the elephant and imagining it is something else.
A brahmana can initiate hundreds of devotees as a ritvik offering to Prabhupada. Without managing them using DVD, he will always get what he’s always got. A band of merry kanisthas full of fiery blissful enthusiasm in the beginning, who burn out and wash out because there is no vehicle to sustain them.
it is amazing that this people like RCB and Sudarsana have no original thoughts on how to move this society along in 2014. they can only repeat the words of Prabhupada that led to the mess they have today. one spews one set of instructions that contradict the other instructions spewed by the other party. this is why the movement continues to dwindle. Like PADA says, the temples are empty except for a few Hindus. Devotees are unable to swindle an Internet-savvy public that can look up the history of the movement and therefore reject all the nonsense before it infiltrates their minds. All that’s left is Hindus who want to take control of ISKCON because they are the only ones supporting it with cash. If it wasn’t for a few Hindus donating cash, most temples would be closed down. The only reason Hindus support ISKCON is because they are misled into thinking it is a Hindu Temple. Even the Hindus are tired of your infighting and nonsense. you guys should give it up and get a real job.
As per my inference based upon the writing of Shriman Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti Prabhu indicates that he is practising himself Bramanical culture following DVD. That is why he quotes to make his strong point ;
SB. 8.2.30 purport
“Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krsna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krsna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.”
From the above Purport, we understand that the DVD instructions are for those who are cultivating and practising Krsna Consciousness because they are indeed the soldiers in this KC movement to establish DVD. That is the intent and purpose of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
Unfortunately, it has not happened in the present Iskcon. Perhaps, as it looks that there are individual people or group of people are trying their level best simply to follow and practise DVD.
Therefore, DVD can not be introduced amongst the non KC people. When a person becomes initiated into practising KC and then naturally the person learns the DVD and others instructions from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI amongst like minded people.
And further he states in his comments ; ” Using Prabhupada to defeat Prabhupada is a sign of gross immaturity. the quotes you posted are irrelevant to the instruction to have DVD in Iskcon. And any argument against DVD is heresy(religious belief or practice contrary to orthodox opinion…..orthodox as in an instruction/opinion from Prabhupada) ”
I do not read any comments quoted by Mahesh Prabhu using Prabhupada to defeat Prabhupada. As a matter of fact his quotes are quite relevant to Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions which lead to practise and establish DVD amongst Srila Prabhupada’s followers.
I am sure that Shriman Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti prabhu will certainly correct my inference.
Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
According to mouse, it is unoriginal to quote Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s words are the cause of a mess. Quoting Srila Prabhupada is equivalent to “spew”.
I think you are on the wrong forum mousey.
Amar, I believe a misunderstanding arose where Mahesh thought that RCB was rejecting Ritvik initiations, because RCB said ritvik won’t fix a broken society but DVD will. RCB made the point that formal initiation is and always was of secondary importance to the Krishna Consciousness movement, and that to dwell on trying to convince deviants to formally accept Prabhupada at the expense of organizing and pushing on the movement according to DVD is counterproductive and will never bear fruit.
Mahesh took that the wrong way and ascribed a position to RCB that he was rejecting initiations entirely, and made the point that you can’t have DVD without brahmanas, and without formal initiation, there are no brahmanas.
Next I tried to explain that to Mahesh
B.Mark says: RCB appears to recognize an over-emphasis of ritvik preaching among devotees even to the point of beating a dead horse, at the expense of discussing how devotees might begin to assess their current varna and asrama and then come together to push on the movement from that platform. Which would of course include Ritvik initiation once DVD groups were established and there were new people to initiate.
Then, Mahesh replied to me.
Mahesh: The FACT is Varnasrama although ESSENTIAL is NOT easy in this age:
From here, Mahesh listed a half dozen quotes wherein SP says strong things against the possibility of implementing DVD. The first quote supports Mahesh’s straw man argument against RCB implying DVD cannot be implemented unless we focus on ritvik preaching and have more ritvik initiations to make brahmanas, as if there are not already hundreds of brahman initiates who already accept ritvik theory who could organize according to DVD,
1. THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA MENTIONED HERE IS ESSENTIAL FOR HUMAN CIVILIZATION. UNLESS THERE IS A BRAHMANA TO GUIDE, A KSATRIYA TO RULE PERFECTLY, AND A PERFECT VAISYA TO PRODUCE FOOD AND PROTECT THE COWS, HOW WILL PEOPLE LIVE PEACEFULLY? IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
From here, the quotes Mahesh offers, in order, paint a plain picture of Mahesh’s opinion, as he offers no personal commentary.
2. AND IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REVIVE THE OLD VARNASRAMA-DHARMA CULTURE. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU THEREFORE SAID THAT THIS METHOD IS NOT VERY PRACTICAL.
3. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS. VARNASRAMA-DHARMA, THE VEDIC SYSTEM OF SOCIETY, IS THEREFORE VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT IT IS MEANT TO GIVE HUMAN BEINGS A CHANCE TO PERFECT THEIR LIVES BY PLEASING KRSNA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS AGE. THEREFORE CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, JUST TO GIVE RELIEF TO THE ROTTING, CONDITIONED SOULS OF THIS AGE OF KALI-YUGA, HAS GIVEN US THE MAHA-MANTRA.
3. ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:
4. HOW CAN THE PEACEFUL VARNASRAMA-DHARMA BE REVIVED WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO HARASSED IN THIS AGE? IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED.
5. SPL 69.10.08) Srila Prabhupada:
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
I don’t know if you have seen this technique before Amar, but I have. Notice the last quote is meant to say “just chant Hare Krsna and be happy” (and stop trying to do the impossible and preach that we should organize according to DVD in order to purifying our chanting of offenses and to please Srila Prabhupada.)
I am sure that is not what Mahesh actually believes, but simply due to a slight misunderstanding of RCB’s position, Mahesh got stuck in the position of a MUNI who was taking a side to argue, and the result appeared to be using Srila Prabhupada to defeat Srila Prabhupada. to defeat a position that RCB was not actually taking, and which has been made clear now.
We are all more or less on the same page, and without coming together under DVD and living in a Sankirtan community, people of like mind are left with coming up with small discrepancies in details to argue about. No great harm or offense is intended by anyone, it is just a manifestation of frustrations and lack of proper engagement in my opinion.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna Amar Puri das
You say) Therefore, DVD can not be introduced amongst the non KC people
I have contact with a local baptist church through marriage of my daughter to the minister’s son. They LOVE the idea of DVD as long as they can stay with Jesus. I said there is no problem with that as long as they stay inside the DVD parameters and regulations for the varnas and asramas. So I do think as function is presented, different trasendentlist will come.
I have lived in one of the worst brown skinned ghetos on the west coast and got acceptance to my DVD preaching there too. No, this DVD will be for others also once we have function.
And that leads me to the next question I hear all the time. Now AGAIN from Puranjana on his site(useless to talk to a guy like that) What it is plan?
That is like asking a cook what is for the offering when we was given NOTHING to work with!!
I(or any ksatriya should be able) to work with ANY set of circumstances and plan out a way forward to better function according to the elements(men, money, land, TPC) at his disposal. Like a cook can go to the cooler/pantry and invent from the content, an offering.
Expecting a grand plan from me in exile is just to immature. I live in alachua, you want a plan? Come to me, tell me about cooperation and I will give you a plan or two or three ways to progress to function. Otherwise to ask for a plan, is to create a straw-man argument meant to defeat the messenger. Then the message becomes lost and distracted from it’s importance that Prabhupada gave DVD. Typical Puranjana stylist of internet hog wash..
you say) I do not read any comments quoted by Mahesh Prabhu using Prabhupada to defeat Prabhupada. As a matter of fact his quotes are quite relevant to Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions which lead to practise and establish DVD amongst Srila Prabhupada’s followers.
I think this quote below is undermining to Prabhupada’s DVD instruction on the matter. I have been hearing this type of quote as such for 40 yrs. It is meant to convince us we are all so pure all we have to do is chant. and that has been refuted by Srila Prabhupada in the above post with the conversation clip from 2/14/77
Mahesh quotes))
“By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection.” Thus if one executes his duties as a perfect ksatriya, vaisya, sudra or whatever, Visnu will be pleased. The purpose of work is to please Visnu. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS. VARNASRAMA-DHARMA, THE VEDIC SYSTEM OF SOCIETY, IS THEREFORE VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT IT IS MEANT TO GIVE HUMAN BEINGS A CHANCE TO PERFECT THEIR LIVES BY PLEASING KRSNA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS AGE. THEREFORE CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, JUST TO GIVE RELIEF TO THE ROTTING, CONDITIONED SOULS OF THIS AGE OF KALI-YUGA, HAS GIVEN US THE MAHA-MANTRA.
harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:(END)
You see this as encouraging to DVD Amara???
Dear Ananny mouse
you say) it is amazing that this people like RCB and Sudarsana have no original thoughts on how to move this society along in 2014.
say as you like. Prabhupada says different and it him I follow. DVD IS THE PLAN!! congregate and divide according to guna and karma. A timeless plan given by Krsna. I invent nothing.
for me the cup is half full, for you the cup is half empty. I always have a plan. Tell me the circumstances and I will have a plan. the only thing on line is good for is talking. You come to me in person and tell me your circumstance and level of cooperation offered to DVD and I will give you a plan. Other wise shut up about a plan until you are ready to commit to me and a plan I would formulate.
That is like someone asking for my protection when you are NOT subject by me. I owe you nothing! least wise a ‘plan’
Dear Raja Caturbahu Das Bhakti Prabhu.
When I made the statement “Forget DVD” I am NOT rejecting DVD! That’s ridiculous! I was simply making the point that it is not a priority. If the devotional community is fragmented then how can you implement?
Srila Prabhupada initiated “Brahmanas” and also “Sannyasis” so were they REALLY Brahmanas and Sannyasi’s? Or simply Sudras in the guise of Brahmanas and Sannyasis? History would prove the LATTER to be true IN MOST CASES! That is NOT to say that it is wrong to attempt it, only that eventually it finds it’s own level…….Automatically.
DVD will progress ONLY when you have a community to start with and to do that firstly you need a vehicle to advance Society INCREMENTALLY which means A FOUNDATION to 1. Distribute Srila Prabhupada’s books (and other previous Acharyas) 2. To propagate the chanting of the Maha Mantra 3. Create a system of Madhukari. 4. To distribute Krishna Prasad. 5. To leave people with a positive impression (Samskara) without proselytizing or religious zealotry.
Mr Mouse says that I have “No original thoughts on how to move this Society along in 2014” Well the fact is that I do! and they are based on sound principals of Conceptual Design. It is something that has worldwide application, simple, practical, cost effective, adaptable for many situations, highly effective to reach the maximum audience, easily reproduced, and easily shipped.
A good plan (or design) is one which INCLUDES all the elements one wishes to achieve with minimum cost and maximum result accomplishes all the goals one is striving to accomplish. I am well trained in conceptual design and came top in my class (in the 90s). Whether this concept is implemented or not depends on Srila Prabhupada and The Supreme Lord. If people want to come to rash conclusions without even knowing me that is their business.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
The Mouse calls them as he sees them. i see the same in-fighting for 40 years with no end in sight. The same quotes from the same peanut gallery. sometimes its a new shaved head that replaces a blooped shave head, but nothing changes. are you guys blind? If you think you are spreading Prabhupada’s movement, you are dead wrong. it’s dwindling, that why so much emphasis is put on the HIndu community. if it wasn’t for the Hindu that you all despise so much, ISKCON would have died a long time ago. you like to say you are not Hindu when it suits you,then you say you are Hindu to get their cash. Hindus keep ISKCON afloat otherwise it would be another extinct dinosaur from another era.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari: Dear Raja Caturbahu Das Bhakti Prabhu.
When I made the statement “Forget DVD” I am NOT rejecting DVD! That’s ridiculous! I was simply making the point that it is not a priority. If the devotional community is fragmented then how can you implement?
Srila Prabhupada initiated “Brahmanas” and also “Sannyasis” so were they REALLY Brahmanas and Sannyasi’s? Or simply Sudras in the guise of Brahmanas and Sannyasis? History would prove the LATTER to be true IN MOST CASES! That is NOT to say that it is wrong to attempt it, only that eventually it finds it’s own level…….Automatically.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: WELL SAID. The problem is RCB shoots the MESSENGER because he gets the bad news. He does not USE his intelligence that the MESSENGER simply passes the message. Everyone KNOWS Srila Prabhupada wants Varnasrama BUT can it be done in its PRESENT situation – THIS is the POINT!
The society is in CHAOS. There is NO COOPERATION as Srila Prabhupada wanted. WHERE is the Kshatriya when Srila Prabhupada’s books are being distorted and manipulated by Jayadvaita and Dravida? The “Kshatriyas” are HIDING in their small apartments. It is the Kshatriya DUTY to sort this out. Temples are STAFFED by EMPLOYEES in the DRESS of devotees. If the Kshatriyas do not sort this then it means there is NO Kshatriyas ONLY Sudras. Just ACCEPT the TRUTH!
SB 5.13.6 P Further Talks Between King Rahugana and Jada Bharata
Thus people are trying to become happy within the material world, but this is like trying to be happy in a forest fire. No one need go to a forest to set it ablaze: fire takes place automatically. Similarly, no one wants to be unhappy in family life or worldly life, but by the laws of nature unhappiness and distress are forced upon everyone. To become dependent on another’s maintenance is very degrading; therefore, according to the Vedic system, everyone should live independently. Only the sudras are unable to live independently. They are obliged to serve someone for maintenance. IT IS SAID IN THE SASTRAS: KALAU SUDRA-SAMBHAVAH. IN THIS AGE OF KALI, EVERYONE IS DEPENDENT ON ANOTHER’S MERCY FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF THE BODY; THEREFORE EVERYONE IS CLASSIFIED AS A SUDRA.
SB 5.26.36 P A Description of the Hellish Planets
When one possesses more wealth than necessary, he certainly becomes very proud. This is the situation of men in modern civilization. According to the Vedic culture, brahmanas do not possess anything, whereas ksatriyas possess riches, but only for performing sacrifices and other noble activities as prescribed in the Vedic injunctions. A vaisya also earns money honestly through agriculture, cow protection and some trade. If a sudra gets money, however, he will spend it lavishly, without discrimination, or simply accumulate it for no purpose. BECAUSE IN THIS AGE THERE ARE NO QUALIFIED BRAHMANAS, KSATRIYAS OR VAISYAS, ALMOST EVERYONE IS A SUDRA (KALAU SUDRA-SAMBHAVAH).
SB 7.11.18-20 P The Perfect Society: Four Social Classes
As stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: the four divisions of human society were created by the Supreme Lord according to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them. Formerly, the principle of dividing human society into four sections–brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra–was strictly followed, but because of gradual neglect of the varnasrama principles, varna-sankara population developed, and the entire institution has now been lost. IN THIS AGE OF KALI, PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IS A SUDRA (KALAU SUDRA-SAMBHAVAH), AND FINDING ANYONE WHO IS A BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA OR VAISYA IS VERY DIFFICULT. ALTHOUGH THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS A MOVEMENT OF BRAHMANAS AND VAISNAVAS, IT IS TRYING TO REESTABLISH THE DIVINE VARNASRAMA INSTITUTION, FOR WITHOUT THIS DIVISION OF SOCIETY THERE CANNOT BE PEACE AND PROSPERITY ANYWHERE.
Hare Krsna Sudarsana d
I stand corrected!! and happy
DVD will progress as the preaching and individual following progresses. Before a ‘group’ there is always preaching first to bring the group together. The preaching is first. Prabhupada already gave the idea and instruction. It is a very important instruction that has no one group following it. I do not count the lame attempts made by some fake sannyasi, show me the ksatriya as leader.
As for guys like Nityananda,. I was at his place in Mississippi(1975) and say run in the opposite direction from this vaisya and do NOT trust in him. A guy can change but I have not seen this happen in those embroiled in the ‘CON preciously.
In India the ‘nugas have 10’s of thousand of devotees multimillion of $. Not enough to start?? The problem with starting DVD is COOPERATION and information(gotten from preaching)
First preaching, then individual acknowledgement of varna then cooperation in a community.
In a place like alachua ALL the necessary elements for a community are here. Men, money, land, talent all in place NOW in alachua. But NO DVD preaching is going on and NO cooperation for such a project is apparent.
you say)) Srila Prabhupada initiated “Brahmanas” and also “Sannyasis” so were they REALLY Brahmanas and Sannyasi’s? Or simply Sudras in the guise of Brahmanas and Sannyasis? History would prove the LATTER to be true IN MOST CASES! That is NOT to say that it is wrong to attempt it, only that eventually it finds it’s own level…….Automatically.
I agree whole heatedly. A thing(varna or asrama) is as it does. So stop following such people! Any claimed brahmana that does NOT preach DVD is rejected by me as a sudra or smarta at best. Still useless to a DVD movement. No, not just useless, he is an impediment!
I have no idea about this Conceptual Design statement and plan you have. could be good, I do not know. I’m a simple person like Prabhupada and just present a thing straight forward. All the activities you speak of I hope are already accepted as one and the same in a DVD community. DVD is the WHOLE forest not just a tree.
For 40 yrs I have heard rejection, desecration of the idea of DVD, objection and just plain ignorance on the subject of DVD. So if I seem a bit short or to fast to call bullocks I ask understanding that this rejection has been the norm with how devotees treat me forever and a day still. 40 yrs of rejection by my so-called godbrothers is SPIRITUAL ABUSE, no less!
Please forgive my jumping on you for misunderstanding the “Forget DVD” statement
We are all more or less on the same page, and without coming together under DVD and living in a Sankirtan community, people of like mind are left with coming up with small discrepancies in details to argue about. No great harm or offense is intended by anyone, it is just a manifestation of frustrations and lack of proper engagement in my opinion.
Hare Krsna
Excellent point Bk Mark. DVD preaching conversations seem to always take a turn down the frivolous argument road. Ending in no progress. that is Maya’s job. Our job is to recognize this and fight our Kali yuga natures.
For those of you that do not know, Bk Mark and I have met on line in 05′. He lived in alachua for some time. we have eaten together and had many hrs of DVD conversations(in his home or mine) for yrs. Some times on a daily bases He is one of a very few devotees that ‘gets’ it like I do. Plus he knows I speak better than I write. LOL.
I found his critique a very nice explanation of how things may have been misunderstood.
Mahesh says)) The society is in CHAOS. There is NO COOPERATION as Srila Prabhupada wanted. WHERE is the Kshatriya when Srila Prabhupada’s books are being distorted and manipulated by Jayadvaita and Dravida? The “Kshatriyas” are HIDING in their small apartments. It is the Kshatriya DUTY to sort this out. Temples are STAFFED by EMPLOYEES in the DRESS of devotees. If the Kshatriyas do not sort this then it means there is NO Kshatriyas ONLY Sudras. Just ACCEPT the TRUTH!
I tried for these devotees in 1976 in LA. I choose exile from the ‘CON in 1979. The congregational rejection was the answer to DVD I got from all of IS-A-CON I’m alone with no friends or congregation to lead. Just HOW do you think I can stop the book changes without violence?
Strawman garbage contentions you give here shows me I had you peg right to begin with. you sound like that sudra nut bag Puranjana. You obviously haven’t a clue to what ksatriyas can and can not do in this day and age.
I would not storm the temples with an AK 47 for any reason. and nothing less will correct what this sinister movement has done. I could care less about IS-A-CON and will never be part of it again. It is NOT of Prabhupada! the sooner you people get that Iskcon has NOT functionally manifested the sooner DVD will be able to start.
FORGET the ‘CON, START ANEW LIKE PRABHUPADA DID WHEN HE CAME WEST There is no baby there, so throw out the bath water!!!!! Prabhupada has left that building as an uninhabitable derelict shell.
And so far the ‘Nugas have replicated it exactly except for initiations. new bosses are the same as the old bosses
Now we will get Disneyland(to the tune of a $100,000,000) to further desecrate the Holy Dhama? Why not resurrect and refurbish the ACTUAL sites themselves?? Get rid of McDonald’s and cow killing in the dhama, ban the automobiles, develop the parikama path with water and bath facilities.
84 sq miles in the center of the universe and ‘Nugas build Disneyland, yet reject DVD as undo-able????
I CALL BULLOCKS!!!
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says: ” I have contact with a local baptist church through marriage of my daughter to the minister’s son. They LOVE the idea of DVD as long as they can stay with Jesus. I said there is no problem with that as long as they stay inside the DVD parameters and regulations for the varnas and asramas. So I do think as function is presented, different trasendentlist will come. ”
Is your statement mentioned above in your comments not affirming what I said in my comments ;
” Therefore, DVD can not be introduced amongst the non KC people ” ?
If NOT, then, explain please why NOT ?
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says ; ” In a place like alachua ALL the necessary elements for a community are here. Men, money, land, talent all in place NOW in alachua. But NO DVD preaching is going on and NO cooperation for such a project is apparent. ”
As it appears both Raja Caturbahu das and Bhakta Mark live in Alachua where all the elements for a community are there as written in his comments mentioned above and to my surprise, being a master planer of DVD as he writes in his comments, Raja Caturbahu das along with Bhakta Mark are unable to introduce and help implementing the DVD plan right at their back yard despite the facts that ;
( Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says: ” I have contact with a local baptist church through marriage of my daughter to the minister’s son. They LOVE the idea of DVD as long as they can stay with Jesus. I said there is no problem with that as long as they stay inside the DVD parameters and regulations for the varnas and asramas. So I do think as function is presented, different trasendentlist will come. ” )
That is astonishing which speaks volumes. Isn’t it ?
Perhaps, Raja Caturbahu das and Bhakata Mark need to explain the reasons of their failure and success for such a plan as described above in the comments.
Hari BOL. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh quotes))
“By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection.” Thus if one executes his duties as a perfect ksatriya, vaisya, sudra or whatever, Visnu will be pleased. The purpose of work is to please Visnu. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS. VARNASRAMA-DHARMA, THE VEDIC SYSTEM OF SOCIETY, IS THEREFORE VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT IT IS MEANT TO GIVE HUMAN BEINGS A CHANCE TO PERFECT THEIR LIVES BY PLEASING KRSNA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS AGE. THEREFORE CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, JUST TO GIVE RELIEF TO THE ROTTING, CONDITIONED SOULS OF THIS AGE OF KALI-YUGA, HAS GIVEN US THE MAHA-MANTRA.
harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:(END)
Raja Caturbahu das writes ; ” You see this as encouraging to DVD Amara??? ”
Amar Puri says ;
I am sorry to say that I am unable to verify the above quotes because there is no reference given from which source the quotes come from.
Therefore, I request Raja Caturbahu das prabhu and / or Mahesh Prabhu please to provide the sources of reference of the above mentioned quotes.
Thank you.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti:I would not storm the temples with an AK 47 for any reason
Mahesh: Nobody is asking you to. Aside from that there are areas like COURT actions that fall under Kshatriya Administration.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti: You obviously haven’t a clue to what ksatriyas can and can not do in this day and age.
Mahesh: You seem to like rambling on thinking yourself SUPERIOR. This is just ARROGANCE.
Amar Puri says ;
I am sorry to say that I am unable to verify the above quotes because there is no reference given from which source the quotes come from.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: here are the quotes again. What RCB is UNABLE to GRASP is that AT PRESENT SITUATION DVD IS NOT POSSIBLE but IT *CAN* MANIFEST LATER. The WHOLE philosophy is simultaneous ONENESS and DIFFERENCE WITH REFERENCE TO TIME PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCES so there is no contradiction in Srila Prabhupada’s words rather some people see only ONE side and therefore ONLY highlight THAT – that’s all! RCB has difficulty in UNDERSTANDING. It is VERY easy to understand. Here is some simple logic : there IS Summer season and when the TIME is ripe the Sun comes out. Where is the difficulty to understand? Varnasrama IS there but NOT manifest AT PRESENT. In due course it becomes MANIFEST again.
If people are PIOUS then Krsna ALLOWS Varnasrama. If they are IMPIOUS what need is there for Varnasrama? Chanting Hare Krsna Maha-mantra is suggested VERY STRONGLY HERE:
TLK Vs 30 Perfect Knowledge Through Surrender
The process of approaching and understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead was also discussed between Ramananda Raya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. First, Ramananda Raya explained the process in terms of varnasrama-dharma. He said first of all that human life is meant for approaching Lord Visnu through the rules and regulations governing varnasrama-dharma. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU REPLIED THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT IN THIS AGE TO EXECUTE THE RULES AND REGULATIONS OF VARNASRAMA-DHARMA. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO BE A BRAHMANA IN THIS AGE, AND IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REVIVE THE OLD VARNASRAMA-DHARMA CULTURE. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU THEREFORE SAID THAT THIS METHOD IS NOT VERY PRACTICAL.
TLK Vs 14 Bhakti-yoga: The Supreme Yoga System
suci haya muci haya yadi krsna tyaje
muci haya suci haya yadi krsna-bhaje
If one takes to Krsna consciousness, even if he is born in a family of a cobbler (muci), he becomes greater than a brahmana (suci). However, if one is born in a brahmana family and gives up Krsna consciousness, he becomes a muci, a cobbler. Thus the door of devotion is open to everyone, whoever he may be. Krsna Himself says that regardless of one’s position, if one takes shelter of Him, one can approach the supreme destination.
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te ‘pi yanti param gatim
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination.” (Bg. 9.32) And Sukadeva Gosvami says:
kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah
“Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha, Yavana and the Khasa races and even others who are addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.” (Bhag. 2.4.18) Krsna consciousness is so complete that it is all-embracing. Everyone has an occupational duty as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, but one does not have to give up his occupational duty to take to Krsna consciousness. And if one takes to Krsna consciousness but does not succeed, what has he lost? Even if he falls down, there is no loss. On the other hand, if a man perfectly performs his own duties (sva-dharma) but is not Krsna conscious, what does he gain? There is actually no gain. Kapiladeva explains that once one takes to the path of bhakti-yoga, one never actually falls down. Once begun, bhakti-yoga continues, even if one temporarily falls down. One is given another chance by taking birth in a good family, either in a wealthy family, a learned family or a brahmana family. If one executes his duties as a brahmana, Visnu will be very pleased, and if one executes his duties perfectly as a ksatriya or sudra, Visnu will also be very pleased. One does not have to change one’s position. In Bhagavad-gita (18.46) Sri Krsna says that every man can become perfect by following his qualities of work:
yatah pravrttir bhutanam
yena sarvam idam tatam
sva-karmana tam abhyarcya
siddhim vindati manavah
“By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection.” Thus if one executes his duties as a perfect ksatriya, vaisya, sudra or whatever, Visnu will be pleased. The purpose of work is to please Visnu. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS. VARNASRAMA-DHARMA, THE VEDIC SYSTEM OF SOCIETY, IS THEREFORE VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT IT IS MEANT TO GIVE HUMAN BEINGS A CHANCE TO PERFECT THEIR LIVES BY PLEASING KRSNA. UNFORTUNATELY, THE VARNASRAMA-DHARMA HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS AGE. THEREFORE CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, JUST TO GIVE RELIEF TO THE ROTTING, CONDITIONED SOULS OF THIS AGE OF KALI-YUGA, HAS GIVEN US THE MAHA-MANTRA.
harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:
prayenalpayusah sabhya
kalav asmin yuge janah
mandah sumanda-matayo
manda-bhagya hy upadrutah
“O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.” (Bhag. 1.1.10) In this age, there will be insufficient rainfall and food, and the government will plunder one’s income by heavy taxation. All of these characteristics of Kali-yuga are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. People will become so disgusted that they will suddenly leave their wife and children and go to the forest. HOW CAN THE PEACEFUL VARNASRAMA-DHARMA BE REVIVED WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO HARASSED IN THIS AGE? IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED. The whole aim of bhakti-yoga is to satisfy Visnu. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih: Visnu, Krsna, came Himself as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us the way of sankirtana.
Dear Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti,
I would like put an addition.
“Among the members of the varṇāśrama institution’s social orders (brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra), the brāhmaṇa is considered the foremost, for he is the teacher and spiritual master of all the other varṇas. Similarly, among the spiritual orders (brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa), the sannyāsa order is the most elevated. Therefore a sannyāsī is the spiritual master of all the varṇas and āśramas, and a brāhmaṇa is also expected to offer obeisances to a sannyāsī”( Cc.Adi 17.265.Purport)
————
Srila Prabhupada saw that actually no one was qualified to take sannyasa, and therefore he actually stopped it altogether in ISKCON after 1977, and so it should not be occurring now:
———–
“From this we can understand that in this age the sannyäsa-äçrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyäsa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Särvabhauma Bhaööäcärya advised Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyäsa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyäsa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyäsa.”
(SB, 8:2:30 Purport)
“If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: “What nonsense this man is… ‘By sex life one becomes conditioned.’ “ They cannot understand. Hare Krsna…This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a… No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that “We shall not fall down again,” that is also not believable. What is the use?”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
“And this kind of hypocrisy–they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. […] Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many grhastha devotees. […] But what is this nonsense that you take sannyasa and make relation with…? This should be completely stopped.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
Hare Krsna Amara d
you say)) Is your statement mentioned above in your comments not affirming what I said in my comments ;
” Therefore, DVD can not be introduced amongst the non KC people ” ?
If NOT, then, explain please why NOT ?
I think other transcendentalist(four kinds of people that surrender to Godlyness) will partake in this Vedic culture. Prabhupada also said if we build it they will come.(paraphrased of course)
As for ‘starting’ with them? No, I agree devotees have to do this first, then the others will come.
The following is the Purport I find from the BG. 18-46 1972 edition ;
PURPORT
” As stated in the Fifteenth Chapter, all living beings are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. As such, the Supreme Lord is the beginning of all living entities. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra-janmādy asya yataḥ. The Supreme Lord is therefore the beginning of life of every living entity. And the Supreme Lord, by His two energies, His external energy and internal energy, is all-pervading. Therefore one should worship the Supreme Lord with His energies. Generally the Vaiṣṇava devotees worship the Supreme Lord with His internal energy. His external energy is a perverted reflection of the internal energy. The external energy is a background, but the Supreme Lord by the expansion of His plenary portion as Paramātmā is situated everywhere. He is the Supersoul of all demigods, all human beings, all animals, everywhere. One should therefore know that as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord it is his duty to render service unto the Supreme. Everyone should be engaged in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is recommended in this verse.
Everyone should think that he is engaged in a particular type of occupation by Hṛṣīkeśa, the master of the senses. And, by the result of the work in which one is engaged, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, should be worshiped. If one thinks always in this way, in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, by the grace of the Lord, he becomes fully aware of everything. That is the perfection of life. The Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā, teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā. The Supreme Lord Himself takes charge of delivering such a devotee. That is the highest perfection of life. In whatever occupation one may be engaged, if he serves the Supreme Lord, he will achieve the highest perfection. ”
Mahesh Prabhu, ;
Where do you find the Purport of BG. 18-46 as quoted by you in your comments ?
Thank you for the clarification.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
“Among the members of the varṇāśrama institution’s social orders (brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra), the brāhmaṇa is considered the foremost, for he is the teacher and spiritual master of all the other varṇas. Similarly, among the spiritual orders (brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa), the sannyāsa order is the most elevated. Therefore a sannyāsī is the spiritual master of all the varṇas and āśramas, and a brāhmaṇa is also expected to offer obeisances to a sannyāsī”( Cc.Adi 17.265.Purport)
marica Prabhu ;
Does any where in the above mentioned quote say that the Varna – Ashram should not be practised ?
Sannyasa Order indeed is the highest order in the Varna Ashram, no doubt.
That is why Srila Prabhupada stopped giving Sannyasa to His followers who are / were of the lowest of the lowest order of the least Qualification for Sannyasa.
Saying that since Srila Prabhupada stopped Sannyasa, therefore, Varna Ashram system is not required would be utterly misleading against Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
Hope it clarifies.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Hare Krsna Mahesh d
you say)) Mahesh: Nobody is asking you to. Aside from that there are areas like COURT actions that fall under Kshatriya Administration.
and then)) Mahesh: You seem to like rambling on thinking yourself SUPERIOR. This is just ARROGANCE.
ARROGANCE?? LOL. I call it confidence built on ability, which I have been tested on throughout my life You never knew me before I came on line. You did not know how I ran sankirtana in LA(circa1978)
For to many yrs I was very easily quieted by my misplaced sentiment toward devotees and my second class position considering others were brahmana.
You do not know me in person. I am as capable as I say I am. From that comes confidence. I never had this level of ‘confidence’ until my trip to India in 1997. I consider it a direct gift from Srila Prabhupada!! As he told me to not take shit any more, I have the paradigm right and am a ksatriya(same as he first said in 1976 when I was his guard). Add ‘Raja’ to your name, denoting varna.
You believe as you like, but this happened to me personally and I do not have to answer to ANYONE else on this matter. Guru has given sanction and after that I do not take the sentimentalist type of humility in response to the likes of resistance to DVD that is going on here.
King/Ksatriya is leader of the social structure and over seer of ALL FOUR VARNAS. OVER AND OUT!!
Karmi COURT?? You have NO vision. We do not belong to this karmi world nor karmi law, we are a Transcendental See, mandated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. We have our own law in DVD. Above all man made law. Including(but not limited to) sharia, noahide, talmud or any other so-called ‘law’, what to speak of this constitutional/maritime fascism.
Ever if I had the money I would NOT waste it on karmi courts. Prabhupada did not do this with the Gaudiya Math. This is paper tiger sudra stuff and NOT ksatriya. I’m sure I have seen Prabhupada make a derogatory statement about so-called ksatriyas pushing paper.
If you can show me where Srila Prabhupada has said ksatriyas must go to court and engage in karmi law I would surrender to it.
i do not remember if it was Lord Ramacandra or Maharaja Pritu or ? Anyway, the bottom line for being a King is to see if the citizens are following DVD FIRST!! Before agreeing to accept responsibility for that kingdom. I hope I said this right. In other words first the ksatriya observes whether or not the citizens are following VAD not that HE has to preach and convince them to do so! If not following then he will not accept leadership of that kingdom. No force, if the congregation is NOT in compliance then I have NO duties to them.
I think it was Lord Ramacandra
Better to remain in exile than to have to suffer a bad kingdom/congregation
Simply put, it is up to the congregation first, not me. The brahmana is responsible to do this preaching, not me. So where is that push from the ‘Nugas?? I was told DVD was in a top group of importance items for the IRG/M in 97. Yet nothing ever came of it by 99. So I said bullocks of quit associating with that stupid rtvik idea of it being the all in all of reform. Not that I ever accepted that idea.
They never evolved because they are trained up be and part and parcel of a sinister mind set hell bent on rejecting any overture about DVD(division in service). Because THEY ARE CHEATERS!!! Simple as that. A thing is as it does!
Your free will is yours, not mine. I have been ready for yrs, no, decades to take the second class role! No court room drama(at great expense) will rectify that. Free will can not be forced. It is up to devotees like you to cooperate with me as leader, not the other way around.(of course I accept you could be brahmana, though I doubt it by your posts to me on this subject)
That is what monarchy is, king is in charge, you follow. Brahmana leads all under Srila Prabhupada. So far I have NOT found a brahmana worthy of my surrender. Yes I tried MANY times. To many for my taste, but that is water under the bridge now and it stopped when I went to India in 97.
Hare Krsna Marica
you say)) Srila Prabhupada saw that actually no one was qualified to take sannyasa, and therefore he actually stopped it altogether in ISKCON after 1977, and so it should not be occurring now:
good point!! so anyone that has now taken sannyasa after this instruction is a cheater to be rejected. easy as pie to figure out when we FOLLOW the vani
Marica prabhu and Mahesh Raja Prabhu are making very good points here in replying to the statements of Raja Catur Das Bhakti Prabhu. The conversation between Sriman Ramananda Roy and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are of particular significance in relation to DVD which is an aspect of Vedic culture which has been severely eroded due to the deteriorating aspects of the Kali Yuga. If my memory serves me well I think it was Plato who had come up with three social divisions (varnas) as the great panacea for the social harmony of ‘civilised society’ as the Vedic Culture was in decline and ”Western Culture” in it’s infancy. His Ideas were acquired from Socrates and three centuries before him Pythagoras who it is said read The Upanisads and followed strictly many aspects of Vedic Culture such as vegetarianism, and understanding of The Supersoul and reincarnation.
We should accept the conclusion of Sri Ramananda Roy and accept him as Acharya however even though he was from the Sudra class. The special mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the conclusion of this exchange with Sri Ramanada Roy completely showers the conditioned souls with special mercy by the adherence to Guru Tattva and the chanting of the Maha Mantra. Even though DVD is an aspect of Vedic Culture that is significant, (particularly in previous Yugas) its importance has been amplified out of all proportion by Raja Catur Das Bhakti and others as some sort of ‘silver bullet’ or solution to the deterioration of ISKCON and GM. Mahesh Raja Prabhu has quite convincingly produced many sastric references which defeat his ‘unbalanced’ conclusion.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Amar, your assumption is wrong as I live a thousand miles away from Alachua. And I noticed you didn’t respond to the comment I addressed to you, so that gives me 2 reasons to say nothing more to you at this time.
Hare Krsna
Mahesh, you are complicating things way too much. Only pure nitya siddhas are able to congregate and cooperate spontaneously. Wherever 2 or more of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are gathered, they are either recognizing the hierarchy of varna and asrama, and organizing their cooperative Sankirtana activities on that basis, or they are acting whimsically, to some degree or other.
Even if perhaps some of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ARE nitya siddha, whether they are descended eternal associates like he was, or if they are now NITYA due to sadhana, they would still appear to be following strictly a varna and asrama as if they were conditioned souls doing sadhana, just as they would be following ritvik initiations even though technically they are qualified to give diksa. The reason is because this was the Acarya’s order, and it sets the example.
And all the quotes in the world, and all the sophisticated interpretations of those quotes, cannot change the simple fact that Srila Prabhupada’s LATEST and FINAL orders on how to manage cooperatively were according to DVD.
I hope you understand my simple presentation here.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna Amara d
You say))Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says ; ” In a place like alachua ALL the necessary elements for a community are here. Men, money, land, talent all in place NOW in alachua. But NO DVD preaching is going on and NO cooperation for such a project is apparent. ”
As it appears both Raja Caturbahu das and Bhakta Mark live in Alachua where all the elements for a community are there as written in his comments mentioned above and to my surprise, being a master planer of DVD as he writes in his comments, Raja Caturbahu das along with Bhakta Mark are unable to introduce and help implementing the DVD plan right at their back yard despite the facts that ;
( Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says: ” I have contact with a local baptist church through marriage of my daughter to the minister’s son. They LOVE the idea of DVD as long as they can stay with Jesus. I said there is no problem with that as long as they stay inside the DVD parameters and regulations for the varnas and asramas. So I do think as function is presented, different trasendentlist will come. ” )
That is astonishing which speaks volumes. Isn’t it ?
Perhaps, Raja Caturbahu das and Bhakata Mark need to explain the reasons of their failure and success for such a plan as described above in the comments.
First off it is NOT my ksatriya responsibility how you(figurative) exercise your free will nor any I responsible for any part of the reactions if you are NOT surrendered to me.
I am able to implement DVD(as much as any cook can go to a FULL panty and invent and offering for Krsna) it is the devotees that are incapable of surrendering to Prabhupada instructions(there by leaving the pantry empty) You cannot blaim me for other miss use of their own free will.
In as much it is not my fault all you people got cheated by IS-A-CON guru scams and negation of DVD
My attempt in alachua was before I met Bk Mark and included one of your failed heros Rupanuga A useless person to further DVD. It was met with abject refusal by all the devotees I talk to. Not my fault.
When Bk Mark came here I told him of my experiences to date. Still he made attempts at preaching to what he thought were possibly receptive devotees. He was met with the same refusal to even contemplate DVD by devotees here. Not his fault they do not want to speak of DVD in their lives.
as for the baptist connection. You misunderstand and then have demanded and explanation as to why (as you say) I failed. The DVD concept was spoken about and accepted as conceptual by Christians. I would never expect that they would begin what is our job.
do any of you understand a person has free will to accept or reject as he likes??????
NOT MY FAULT IF DVD IS REJECTED BY OTHERS. and has nothing to do with my varna qualification.
B.Mark says:
19. June 2014 at 6:19 pm
Amar, your assumption is wrong as I live a thousand miles away from Alachua. And I noticed you didn’t respond to the comment I addressed to you, so that gives me 2 reasons to say nothing more to you at this time.
Hare Krsna
-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;
RCB says ;
” For those of you that do not know, Bk Mark and I have met on line in 05′. He lived in alachua for some time. we have eaten together and had many hrs of DVD conversations(in his home or mine) for yrs. Some times on a daily bases He is one of a very few devotees that ‘gets’ it like I do. Plus he knows I speak better than I write. LOL.”
Amar Puri says ;
From the above statement of RCB, it did appear to me that you did live in Alachua for some time that created the impression in my mind that you were or are also in Alachua, B. Mark.
It is good to know that you live a thousand miles away from Alachua. Keep up the good preaching work for the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
Regarding your other questions as you said in your post that I did not answer for which please accept my apology. But unfortunately I did not read any questions from you to me which were unanswered. Would you please ask and write to me again.
Thanks B. Mark. It is nice to hear from you after such a long time.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Wow ……….. Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti ……. who considers and accepts himself to be the King as to what he writes as following in reply to my comments ;
” Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says ;
First off it is NOT my ksatriya responsibility how you(figurative) exercise your free will nor any I responsible for any part of the reactions if you are NOT surrendered to me.
I am able to implement DVD(as much as any cook can go to a FULL panty and invent and offering for Krsna) it is the devotees that are incapable of surrendering to Prabhupada instructions(there by leaving the pantry empty) You cannot blaim me for other miss use of their own free will.
In as much it is not my fault all you people got cheated by IS-A-CON guru scams and negation of DVD
My attempt in alachua was before I met Bk Mark and included one of your failed heros Rupanuga A useless person to further DVD. It was met with abject refusal by all the devotees I talk to. Not my fault.
When Bk Mark came here I told him of my experiences to date. Still he made attempts at preaching to what he thought were possibly receptive devotees. He was met with the same refusal to even contemplate DVD by devotees here. Not his fault they do not want to speak of DVD in their lives.
as for the baptist connection. You misunderstand and then have demanded and explanation as to why (as you say) I failed. The DVD concept was spoken about and accepted as conceptual by Christians. I would never expect that they would begin what is our job.
do any of you understand a person has free will to accept or reject as he likes??????
NOT MY FAULT IF DVD IS REJECTED BY OTHERS. and has nothing to do with my varna qualification. ”
Here below I re-produce what I answered to your statement ;
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says ;
” But the ksatriya can not be expected function/produce results with no congregation to back up his leadership. this is cooperation, by varna and asrama. Brahman is NOT the civil leader. All the problems I see on these forums are civil/social in nature for the most part. These [problems are the duties
of a ksatriya “.
Amar Puri says ;
The above said statement is very much CONDITIONAL.
Varna and Asrama system is naturally divided and existed as per the nature. It is the individual and group of individual who choose/s to defy the Laws of Nature and avoid it to follow through under the various influence of the mode of nature. That is the problem of suffering the conditioned Jivas.
Therefore, Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions — VANI is there as a guidance of reminding all of us to follow through according to the capacity of the Individual.
Varna and Asrama begins with the Individual, then, expands it in to the family and the like minded friends and so on. That is exactly what Srila Prabhupada has demonstrated in His manifested lila and left behind His VANI for the serious and sincere followers to make our lives sublime in KC and go back Home Back to Godhead.
Therefore, Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti, I find very much your answer in the explanation is totally out of align in discussion to my questions in the comments.
As Srila Prabhupada has said many times ; we should all ” practise before we preach ”
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu !
APP says:
“Among the members of the varṇāśrama institution’s social orders (brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra), the brāhmaṇa is considered the foremost, for he is the teacher and spiritual master of all the other varṇas. Similarly, among the spiritual orders (brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa), the sannyāsa order is the most elevated. Therefore a sannyāsī is the spiritual master of all the varṇas and āśramas, and a brāhmaṇa is also expected to offer obeisances to a sannyāsī”( Cc.Adi 17.265.Purport)
Does any where in the above mentioned quote say that the Varna — Ashram should not be practised ?
Sannyasa Order indeed is the highest order in the Varna Ashram, no doubt.
That is why Srila Prabhupada stopped giving Sannyasa to His followers who are / were of the lowest of the lowest order of the least Qualification for Sannyasa.
Saying that since Srila Prabhupada stopped Sannyasa, therefore, Varna Ashram system is not required would be utterly misleading against Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
Hope it clarifies.”
I think everyone can draw a conclusion.
My conclusion is the following:
“Sadhu, sastra and guru. Guru means who follows the sastra and sadhu. So there are three, the same.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 30/11/1976).
So the guru-SADHU-sastra principle in practice IS SRILA PRABHUPADA.
But
“Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON soceity, the one he founded, is the external manifestation of his spiritual potency in a “physical” form- temples, devotees etc.
Unfortunately after His departure, what we have now is just a dead body with no life, since NO SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THERE – he exsists only in name to attract people…” ( Krishnakant Prabhu )
In his comments, Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti writes ;
” You do not know me in person. I am as capable as I say I am. From that comes confidence. I never had this level of ‘confidence’ until my trip to India in 1997. I consider it a direct gift from Srila Prabhupada!! As he told me to not take shit any more, I have the paradigm right and am a ksatriya(same as he first said in 1976 when I was his guard). Add ‘Raja’ to your name, denoting varna.
You believe as you like, but this happened to me personally and I do not have to answer to ANYONE else on this matter. Guru has given sanction and after that I do not take the sentimentalist type of humility in response to the likes of resistance to DVD that is going on here.
King/Ksatriya is leader of the social structure and over seer of ALL FOUR VARNAS. OVER AND OUT!! ”
Amar Puri says ;
How true it is when RCD says in his comments ; ” I consider it a direct gift from Srila Prabhupada!! As he told me to not take shit any more, I have the paradigm right and am a ksatriya(same as he first said in 1976 when I was his guard). Add ‘Raja’ to your name, denoting varna. ”
DO NOT FORGET, RCB , you are in a different position, now. You may have a gift from Srila Prabhupada, as you said, but due to change in your position, you are not able to exercise and utilize your gift after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada because your position has changed.
That is why you have failed to implement DVD not only in your life but into the lives of others around you also who are not co-operating with you as you said.
An honest Ksatria Leader does not demand a cooperation from people but he gains ” Love and Trust ” of other people by rendering selflessly service for the benefit of the people who extends cooperation voluntarily to such a Leader.
The best example of such an exalted Leader is none other than our Jagat Guru HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
At present, as it appears from your writing that you are not any near to that qualification of a Ksatria who does possess such QUALITY as Pandava brothers had.
As the saying goes, ” Deserve before you Desire “.
Hope it meets you well, RCB.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sudarsana d Vanacary says))We should accept the conclusion of Sri Ramananda Roy and accept him as Acharya however even though he was from the Sudra class. The special mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the conclusion of this exchange with Sri Ramanada Roy completely showers the conditioned souls with special mercy by the adherence to Guru Tattva and the chanting of the Maha Mantra. Even though DVD is an aspect of Vedic Culture that is significant, (particularly in previous Yugas) its importance has been amplified out of all proportion by Raja Catur Das Bhakti and others as some sort of ‘silver bullet’ or solution to the deterioration of ISKCON and GM. Mahesh Raja Prabhu has quite convincingly produced many sastric references which defeat his ‘unbalanced’ conclusion.(END)
Yes! DVD is a silver bullet to kill the cheating inherent in a sinister cult. No, I’m repeating as my spiritual master has said and emphasized………
Srila Prabhupada: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bhagavad Gita. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varnasrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavan: Everything is there very clearly in your books, SrilaPrabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: A man-made scheme-useless. Sattvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvavalambi-para-sattva-visuddha-sattvam…. From Brahma-samhita?
this part of this conversation about initiation, yet Prabhupada finishes with DVD….. no, I got the importance right and it’s you boys that are out to lunch
The conversation between Ramanada Raja of Lord Caitanya is irreverent to us in following DVD as Prabhupada has said in this conversation I post below…….for the second time in this thread..This negation that you post sounds like it would come from one of the sinister disciples like Satvarupa or Hari-sauri. They are dead against DVD as we can see in this conversation…….I all ready posted this….did you not read it Sadarsana d Vanacari???? You did read it but do not care for Prabhupada’s opinion I think. Or why now and again sight Ramanada Raya and Lord Caitanya???
Prabhupada: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like ksatriya should be trained up as ksatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.43]
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Ramacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Laksmana. Because ksatriya. They should be trained up as ksatriya. Therefore the varnasrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brahmana, who is able to become a ksatriya, who is able to become… In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, sudras, they are simply given vote. That’s all. Where is the training?
Hari-sauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they’re using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupada: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kuruksetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they’ll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, then whole world will be… This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari-sauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the ksatriya system in Krsna’s time. Just like Jarasandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a ksatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody’s… No one is…
Prabhupada: Everybody’s sudra. Nobody’s brahmana, nobody’s…
Hari-sauri: No.
Prabhupada: Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-sauri: If that’s done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupada: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don’t discriminate because he’s coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not… He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the… That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13]. So we are Krsna…, preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada…
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The… People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and…, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the…, being as we’re training up as Vaisnavas…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: …then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
I remember one of the most popular excuses given by devotees as to why they reject Srila Prabhupada’s explicit instruction to implement DVD in Iskcon, was first that Srila Prabhupada is gone and thus all his instructions must be viewed as optional because times have changed, and then second they point to the conversation between Sri Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya as a reason to reject the Acarya’s management plan for his Iskcon society.
They claim that Lord Caitanya rejected Varnasrama as a means to achieve devotional service to Krishna because it is external, and since we are already Vaisnavas we should also reject it. Of course one of Mahesh Raja’s claims to fame is his mastery of innumerable quotes describing how it is nearly impossible to become Vaisnava and how strict one must follow rules given by the Acarya just to become a brahmana and then MAYBE a neophyte Vaisnava.
And of course there is the minor detail that the Lord went on to reject each subsequent suggestion of Raya Ramananda, including spontaneous love in servitude and wanted something higher than even spontaneous fraternal love, and even asked for more than the suggestion of conjugal love.
A sober disciple would realize at this point that his actual qualifications to directly enter these phases of relationship with the Lord, or even reject them for more, are probably not on the level of Lord Caitanya and perhaps begin to view this conversation with newfound caution.
And maybe even will go back to the first suggestion of Varnasrama by R. Raya and see that in no way was Lord Caitanya rejecting it on behalf of others, and to specifically read Srila Prabhupada’s purport to the verse. Here is the translation and key points of the purport.
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu ordered Ramananda Raya to recite a verse from the revealed scriptures concerning the ultimate goal of life. Ramananda replied that if one executes the prescribed duties of his social position, he awakens his original Krsna consciousness.”
A great saint, the father of Srila Vyasadeva, Parasara Muni, has specifically mentioned that devotional service to the Lord can ultimately be awakened in human society by the discharge of duties in accordance with the varnasrama system. The Supreme Personality of Godhead instituted varnasrama-dharma to give human beings a chance to return home, back to Godhead.
The Lord says that those engaged in their occupational duty can attain perfection simply by rendering loving devotional service to the Lord while executing their particular duty. Actually the modern ideal of a classless society can be introduced only by Krsna consciousness. Let men perform their occupational duty, and let them give their profits to the service of the Lord. In other words, one can attain the perfection of life by discharging one’s occupational duty and employing the results in the service of the Lord.
Every man should perform his occupational duty in the light of his particular tendency. According to his abilities, one should accept a position in the varnasrama institution… Indeed, everyone has a prescribed duty according to the varnasrama-dharma. Those who properly execute their prescribed duties live peacefully and are not disturbed by material conditions… If one executes his prescribed duty in both the social and spiritual order, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is satisfied. If one neglects his duties, however, he becomes a transgressor and a candidate for a hellish condition. Actually we see that different people are engaged in different ways; therefore there must be divisions according to work. To attain perfection, one must make devotional service the center of life. In this way one can awaken his natural instincts by work, association and education. One should accept the varnasrama divisions by qualification, not by birth. Unless this system is introduced, human activities cannot be systematically executed. (end purport)
I point out that if you read the ENTIRE conversation carefully, you will see that Lord Caitanya only rejects Varnasrama and all other methods and rasas of Bhakti as the highest means to directly attain what only he was qualified to do, which was to immediately and permanently “accept the mood of the gopis in their service. In such a transcendental mood, one should always think of the pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna.”
and Srila Prabhuapda even used this very verse to support the implementing of DVD!
SB 5.5.29 — Vrndavana, November 16, 1976 :
Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya quoted this when Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired from him what is sādhya-sādhana. “What is the business of the human society and what is the aim of human society?” This was the question put forward by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He first of all quoted varṇāśrama. The human society begins when there is varṇāśrama-dharma. Otherwise it is animal society. There is no human society. That is beginning of human society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. My Guru Mahārāja also wanted to establish daiva-varṇāśrama. Yes. There must be the human society, not this, daiva-varṇāśrama, not this āsuric varṇāśrama. Āsuric varṇāśrama… Just like Rāvaṇa. He was also son of a brāhmaṇa, but he was rejected, that “You are not brāhmaṇa; you are rākṣasa because you do not care for Bhagavān Rāmacandra.” So this is the verdict of the śāstra. So therefore daiva-varṇāśrama. Varnāśrama should be established on the principles of devata, to make people devata. Devata means viṣṇu bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Unless one is not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot be a devata. He cannot be a civilized man.
First of all the Indians are requested to make his life perfect, because how to make life perfect, the process and everything is in India, because here there is varṇāśrama-dharma, the division of the human society: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and āśrama. Now these things are rejected by the Indians, but this is the most scientific method for making life perfect. This is the most scientific method. This was the answer of Rāmānanda Rāya when he was questioned by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, “What is the aim of perfection of life, and how to accomplish it?” This is the question was given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So the answer was, immediately,
ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
[SB 1.2.13]”The aim of human life, the goal of human life, is to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu.”
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that it is giving immediate lift to everyone to come to the transcendental platform, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. But general state is varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he was discussing with Rāmānanda Rāya, he first of all said, “What is the aim of life?” Caitanya Mahāprabhu (was) asking. So Rāmaṇanda Raya replied that “First of all to begin this varṇāśrama dharma.” So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra: “Yes, this is all right. But this is external. If you know something better, please tell me.” So in this way, step by step, Caitanya Mahāprabhu… This varṇa, āśrama, dharma, karma-tyāga, karma-sannyāsa, and karma-miśra-bhakti, jñāna-miśra-bhakti—everything was described by Rāmānanda Rāya, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu not rejected. He said, “It is all right, but if you know something better…”Then at last, when Rāmānanda said… (aside:) Stop it. When Rāmaṇanda said that, quoting one verse from Śrīmad-Bhagavatam, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, that it doesn’t matter what you are. You remain in your post. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Through the oral reception if you hear about Kṛṣṇa, then you become perfect. That is the statement.
So this is required at the present moment, that you remain whatever you are, either brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, Englishman, Indian. It doesn’t matter. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa SB 7.6.1 – Madras, January 2, 1976 ****
Therefore, even if a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is already qualified with spontaneous love beyond DVD, they will follow DVD strictly anyway because it it the first platform for the large majority of people to stand on in order to eventually practice higher devotional practices that can bring them to spontaneous love, not to mention it was a direct order for all in Iskcon.
And the conversation between Ramananda Raya and Lord Chaitanya is irrelevant to the discussion.
pamho agtACBSP
All the kangoorus of the gaudiya matha including f-iskcon got very serious problematic problems by disobeying to the order of the own guru. Their mind drove them completely crazy, they tried to control it artificially by taking powerful drugs including the vibhuti from citisvera das who became very rich by supporting all these kangoorus through kavacham and narcotic drugs from others planets also, is not just harikesa swami to buy that from him all the usurpers of SRILA PRABHUPADA divine position got attacked by ghosts sending to them by bhutesvara mahadeva.
The same happened in the gaudiya matha after SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKUR TIROBHAVA MAHOTSAVA, sridara swami used to be always sick many devotees use to go there to visit him but he could not receive nobody because of his serious sickness, a very rare disease for rare people who disobey to the order of SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA, he was completely trapped in his room through his sickness and this is another proof that it was a illegal position what is done otherwise he was not fell in that miserable condition for the rest of all his life.
Anyway is not just him bon maharaj did the same in SRI VRINDAVAN DHAM where blind followers still worship him in his temple there, anyway the kangoorus platform is not something new it been there since the beginning of the vaisnava history because there is the opposite side in everything in the material world and the opposite side of the real guru tattva is the polluted guru hoaxers. It is not worthy to remember things destined to be forgotten we should remember only things which will be manifested eternally like SRILA PRABHUPADA who is eternal and not temporary fake images entagled in disagreement with SRILA PRABHUPADA through their ridicolous bodily concept of life.
agtSP
ys haribol
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti: Ever if I had the money I would NOT waste it on karmi courts….. Karmi COURT?? You have NO vision.
Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada shows us COURT ACTION is NECESSARY and EVERYONE KNOWS that Jayadvaita and Dravida have been MANIPULATING and DISTORTING Srila Prabhupada’s books hence SLAUGHTERING THE SPIRITUAL LIVES OF SO MANY INNOCENT SOULS. NOT only THAT but BBT is DEAD they have TAKEN OVER and REPLACED it with Bhaktivedanta Books Trust International which they can POCKET the money AS THEY CHOOSE. BBT under Srila Prabhupada has CLEAR directives 50% for the Temples 50% for the books.
It is NOT upto to Vaisyas to sort this nor Sudras. This has to be sorted by Ksatriyas. Ksatriyas give PROTECTION not COWARDS.
75-09-04. Letter: Paramahamsa:
Regarding Manasvi, you should immediately prosecute. THE CHARGE SHOULD BE BREACH OF TRUST AND MISAPPROPRIATION OF FUNDS. I have received today the Oath of Allegiance duly signed by him and notarized. When required it will be supplied to you. Therefore I wanted this declaration. IMMEDIATELY PROSECUTE.
721211BG.AHM Lectures
So these things are topsy-turvied. Simply it has become a farce. Actually if we want to establish Vedic civilization, then we must follow strictly the principles of Vedas as it is described in the Bhagavad-gita. And if it is practiced, then daiva-varnasrama-dharma. That is required. Daiva-varnasrama-dharma. There must be the four divisions. Just like we have got four divisions in our body: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg division is the sudra, the belly division is the vaisya, and the arm division is the ksatriya, and the head division is the brahmana. SO THESE DIVISIONS ARE NOW LOST. ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO KSATRIYA, NO BRAHMANA. MAYBE THERE ARE SOME VAISYAS AND SUDRAS. So suppose if your whole body there is only belly and leg, then what is the body? If you have no head and no arm, then how it is? What kind of body it is? SO THEREFORE, IN THE SOCIAL ORDER OF THE PRESENT DAY, THERE IS NO BRAHMANA, NO KSATRIYA. ONLY THERE ARE SOME FEW VAISYAS AND SUDRAS. SO THEREFORE THERE IS CHAOS ALL OVER THE WORLD. So this Krsna consciousness movement is meant for creating some real brahmana. At least, there may be head. They are all mad after the influence of the material energy. So there is need of some brahmana who can give advice to the people how to live, how to become God conscious, how to become happy. There is great need of this movement. Simply so-called classless society will not help us. That is not Vedic civilization.
B.Mark :Even if perhaps some of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ARE nitya siddha….
Mahesh: They are NOT nitya siddha they are a bunch of SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS the articles below will prove my point:
Mahesh Raja: Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
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Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
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Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
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Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
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Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
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Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
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Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
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He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
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The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
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“under my order: guru hana – become a spiritual master”
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40622#more-40622
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Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
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Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
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Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
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Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
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Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
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We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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Monitor does NOT give Diksa
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41025#more-41025
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The meaning of NIYAMAGRAHA in terms of EMERGENCY Ritvik Initiations
http://iskcontimes.com/meaning-niyamagraha-terms-emergency
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A SINFUL MAN WHO ACTS AGAINST THE LAWS OF NATURE MUST BE PUNISHED, BUT SOMETIMES HE IS GIVEN A CHANCE TO PLAY
http://www.iskcontimes.com/sometimes-given-chance-to-play
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Reply to Rocana Dasa on his COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of BOTH the Guru and Ritvik Issue
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41135#more-41135
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Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth
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Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
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Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34065
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CON Trick from the Bogus GBC
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34797#more-34797
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Srila Prabhupada poisoned:
The following sites has whispers of the poison givers:
To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click here or
http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh
And for Individual highlighted louder version of the whole CD , please go to
http://www.culturedbooks.com/audio/audio-address.html
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Hearing: The Real Tradition ( by Vidura Prabhu)
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=37198
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Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
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Defeat of Anti Ritvik “Tradition Argument “
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38959#comment-24845
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Where is the order from Srila Prabhupada?
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/doar.html
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Unauthorized book changes
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=39381#more-3938
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Duysanta Muddle Continues
http://krishna1008.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/dusyanta-muddle-continues-reply-by.html
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Are ISKCON’s bogus Gurus aware of their deviations and why don’t they fear Krishna’s punishment?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40208#more-40208
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Srila Prabhupada Omniscient ?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40259#comment-25169
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Why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura reject Bipin Bihari Goswami?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40259#comment-25182
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Dravida das’s CON Trick to support Jayadvaita’s REWRITING Srila Prabhupada’s books
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40405#more-40405
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Jayadvaita’s greatest perversion: changing books to support “pseudo devotees”
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41145#more-41145
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Heresies of GBC’s Guru System
GBC vs. Srila Prabhupada
By: Vikramasingha Das
http://krishna1008.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/heresies-of-gbcs-guru-system.html
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Devotees will be interested in this:
Srila Prabhupada books searches:
http://prabhupadabooks.com/
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Niamagraha in terms of Emergency Ritvik Initiations
http://iskcontimes.com/meaning-niyamagraha-terms-emergency
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Process of 1st and 2nd Initiations in ISKCON
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40917
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Some nice Srila Prabhupada download sites for Original Books, Audio, Video etc:
http://www.krishnapath.org/free-ebooks-audiobooks-of-srila-prabhupada/
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This is one of the OLD original folios works on ALL windows in BIG screen. Easy to use :
http://krishna.org/ms-dos-prabhupada-vedabase-folio-views/
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This is VERY good for the price!!! Srila Prabhupada’s mp3 set of all audio lectures, conversations etc:
http://krishnastore.co.uk/srila-prabhupada-mp3-audio-library-now-on-dvds-h-krishna-404.html
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Srila Prabhupada 1977 Audio release:
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=79&Itemid=173
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Srila Prabhupada Mp3 Downloads:
http://causelessmercy.com/?P=_PrabhupadasMP3Links1d&CS=4
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marica prabhu says: ” I think everyone can draw a conclusion.
My conclusion is the following:
“Sadhu, sastra and guru. Guru means who follows the sastra and sadhu. So there are three, the same.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 30/11/1976).
So the guru-SADHU-sastra principle in practice IS SRILA PRABHUPADA.
But
“Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON soceity, the one he founded, is the external manifestation of his spiritual potency in a “physical” form- temples, devotees etc.
Unfortunately after His departure, what we have now is just a dead body with no life, since NO SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THERE — he exsists only in name to attract people…” ( Krishnakant Prabhu )
Amar Puri says ;
The conclusion must be drawn duly based upon the Guru, Sadhu and Sastras.
I find the quote made by Krishnakant Prabhu presented by marica prabhu’s comments in his conclusion is totally CONTRADICTORY against the Guru, Sadhu and Sastras when Krishnakant Prabhu describes ;
” Unfortunately after His departure, what we have now is just a dead body with no life, since NO SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THERE — he exsists only in name to attract people…”
My questions to marica prabhu and Krishnakant Prabhu are ;
After Srila Prabhupada’s physical departure ;
Is Srila Prabhupada not present via His VANI ?
Does he not exist and attract people because He is present in His VANI ?
How does Krishnakant Prabhu conclude Srila Prabhupada’s existence only in name to attract people and not accepting Srila Prabhupada’s presence in His VANI ?
Is Krishnkant setting up a double standard against Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions ?
Hope marica prabhu puts up the above questions to Krishnakant Prabhu and brings back the answer or else Krishnakant Prabhu must withdraw his CONTRADICTORY statement under discussion without further confusing innocent people who have seen and read his CONTRADICTORY statement .
Otherwise, it shows that Krishnakant Prabhu is a DISHONEST leader having his own agenda simply for a Prathistha like the bogus gbc – gurus in the present Iskcon.
Hoping to hear further in this serious matter.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Dear Learned Readers,
Make no mistake, the Guru Srila Prabhupada, Sadhus all the Bonafide Acarayas and the scriptures starting with Srimad Bhagvatgita spoken by the Lord Shri Krishna Himself instruct and say to practise the Varna and Asrama system for the conditioned Jivas in order to alleviate to the level of a Vaishnava.
Varna and Asrama system is naturally divided and existed as per the nature. It is the individual and group of individual who choose/s to defy the Laws of Nature and avoid it to follow through under the various influence of the mode of nature. That is one of the problem in the society for suffering the conditioned Jivas when there is no Varna and Asrama being practised in the society.
Therefore, Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions — VANI is there as a guidance of reminding all of us to follow through according to the capacity of the Individual.
Varna and Asrama begins with the Individual, then, expands it in to the family and the like minded friends and so on. That is exactly what Srila Prabhupada has demonstrated in His manifested lila and left behind His VANI for the serious and sincere followers to make our lives sublime in KC and go back Home Back to Godhead.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT.
Amar,
Remember, replies are held back to pile up sometimes for a whole day, so you might have to scroll back to see read a reply that immediately was made to one of your comments, as when it is posted, there may be a half dozen comments in front of it.
Here is the comment I was referring to.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-26902
I also just noticed that you believe that a person must be as qualified as a Pandava to be considered Ksatriya varna in Iskcon. I won’t be snarky, but simply say perhaps you might want to rethink that position. Especially considering how easily so many accept the position of brahmana, as well as the fact that Srila Prabhupada’s DVD instructions were tailored to this time place and circumstance as far as qualifications for all varnas.
In addition you should consider it quite possible, until you see for yourself, that RCB preaches DVD very nicely in Alachua, but literally no one CHOOSES to accept it, the same way as 99% of devotees in Alachua refuse to accept ritvik, and how even when Prabhupada was here, most devotees only strictly followed when he was personally standing next to them, and even then many argued and rejected.
As for me, I was just some guy who read Prabhupada’s books and listened to his lectures and conversations for many years on my own poking my head into Iskcon temples and communities saying to myself “no this isn’t it”, “no these people aren’t following what I read”, “nope, these people are treating one another like crap”, and finally wound up in Alachua and met one devotee who preached like Prabhupada, and he was a Ksatriya alright, but he was a bit physically handicapped, deaf, had a huge family of sons who freely chose to disobey his good instruction, and could barely even hold jobs to keep rent paid and stay out of trouble with the law, and no so called brahmanas were ever willing to discuss DVD with him when approached because they were “too pure”, or fill in the blank excuse that they just didn’t want someone around them who could see through their B.S. and would hold them accountable.
So I found no ritvik based sankirtana movement to get initiated into and join up with in Alachua, but I found someone who helped me to see the truth of why that was, and we shared Krishna kattah in our own way which has benefited me spiritually more than every combined second of Iskcon association I have ever had X 1000.
In many ways (and saying this will make him squirm a bit because he shuns praise and is actually humble) meeting RCB was what I would expect it would have been like to meet Prabhupada, only RCB was a bit on the passionate side and was not inclined to trick hundreds of unwilling people to pretend to be his strictly following disciples, and more inclined to dismiss them with in righteous anger at their pretense and remain alone.
Yet when he goes to the temple on major holy days, he is a perfect gentleman and checks his feelings and tries to separate the milk from the water in order to at least encourage his young grandsons to see whatever small reflection there is of Krishna culture because even the cheaters need to keep up a pretty high standard to keep the masses fooled, and the Deities in Alachua are decorated and worshiped gorgeously, if you can ignore the pictures of neophyte gurus on the altar spoiling the chain of offering. And if kirtan is led by a complete deviant, his grandson can tell and just puts his hands over his ears and waddles out of the temple room.
Anyhow, thats about it.
Hare Krsna
B.Mark:I remember one of the most popular excuses given by devotees as to why they reject Srila Prabhupada’s explicit instruction to implement DVD in Iskcon, was first that Srila Prabhupada is gone and thus all his instructions must be viewed as optional because times have changed, and then second they point to the conversation between Sri Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya as a reason to reject the Acarya’s management plan for his Iskcon society.
Mahesh: These are strawman arguments. NOBODY is saying to reject DVD. Let us get the FACTS first and the PRACTICAL down-to-earth realities. We have to consider the PRESENT situation – THAT is what WE SAY.
We NEVER said reject DVD. The situation CAN change if the HEARTS change by chanting Hare Krsna SINCERELY.
1) There is ONLY FEW farm projects today in the world which have got some good set-up eg Fiji Nityananda’s , India Dayalu Nitya Jaipur India etc. This means COW protection. Vaisya arrangement is there.
2) Where is the NEED for Kastriyas AT PRESENT? WHO are they PROTECTING? The POLICE force is there for any problems. If the POLICE force was NOT there that would be a job for Kastriyas.
SB 6.4.4 P The Hamsa-guhya Prayers
When the government neglects agriculture, which is necessary for the production of food, the land becomes covered with unnecessary trees. Of course, many trees are useful because they produce fruits and flowers, but many other trees are unnecessary. They could be used as fuel and the land cleared and used for agriculture. When the government is negligent, less grain is produced. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (18.44), krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava jam: the proper engagements for vaisyas, according to their nature, are to farm and to protect cows. THE DUTY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE KSATRIYAS IS TO SEE THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE THIRD CLASS, THE VAISYAS, WHO ARE NEITHER BRAHMANAS NOR KSATRIYAS, ARE THUS PROPERLY ENGAGED. KSATRIYAS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT HUMAN BEINGS, WHEREAS VAISYAS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT USEFUL ANIMALS, ESPECIALLY COWS.
3) FACT – Srila Prabhupada’s books are being DISTORTED, MANIPULATED by Jayadwaita, Dravida AND ISKCON temple management ONLY ALLOW to distribute these among the congregation. Ksatriyas CAN help HUMAN BEINGS from slaughtering THEIR SPIRITUAL LIVES in THEIR AREA by COURT ACTION against these people. Otherwise WHO wants Ksatriyas if they CAN NOT help them?
Simply put: Ksatriyas can rule over IF they HELP otherwise they are USELESS burden of CONTROL- FREAKS.
4) IF there is NO help THEN best to apply the RELEVANT quote:
TLK Vs 14 Bhakti-yoga: The Supreme Yoga System
In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:
prayenalpayusah sabhya
kalav asmin yuge janah
mandah sumanda-matayo
manda-bhagya hy upadrutah
“O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.” (Bhag. 1.1.10) In this age, there will be insufficient rainfall and food, and the government will plunder one’s income by heavy taxation. All of these characteristics of Kali-yuga are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. People will become so disgusted that they will suddenly leave their wife and children and go to the forest. HOW CAN THE PEACEFUL VARNASRAMA-DHARMA BE REVIVED WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO HARASSED IN THIS AGE? IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED. The whole aim of bhakti-yoga is to satisfy Visnu. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih: Visnu, Krsna, came Himself as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us the way of sankirtana.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(SPL 69.10.08) Srila Prabhupada:
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
WOW Amara has me completely figured out.
no DVD in so-called devotee culture(except they are ALL brahmanas, LOL) is all my fault because I do not deserve to have this life Prabhupada explained and instructed us to live by.
Well there you have it, now we know just whom is in error.
Mahesh wrote: B.Mark :Even if perhaps some of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ARE nitya siddha….
Mahesh: They are NOT nitya siddha they are a bunch of SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS the articles below will prove my point:
——————-
Mahesh, I was making a rhetorical point which you completely missed and you didn’t address the substance of my point at all, but I see you didn’t miss the opportunity to give links to every article you ever wrote.
Try again? Or not.
Mahesh,
You say those are strawman arguments. The you say “we” never made those arguments.
You must not be following along. That was an argument a different person made on this very thread. Which is why I addressed it and noted how many others in the past have used the same one.
I know this delayed post format makes keeping up a little challenging, but not impossible. This is actually the second time it seems you have replied without reading carefully. No offense meant, just pointing it out.
Ah, another 3 varna brahmin.
You were right RCB. Sudra.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu !
I correspondenced with Krishnakant Prabhu long time ago. I would not like that you would perhaps offence him, because he also serves Srila Prabhupada.
We were talking about ISKCON. Many devotees do not read Srila Prabhupada’s books in ISKCON today.
The complete quote is very nice, and I agree with it.
“Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON Society, the one he founded, is the external manifestation of his spiritual potency in a “physical ” form – temples, devotees, etc.
Unfortunately, after his departure, what we have now is just a dead body with no life, since no Srila Prabhupada is there – he exists only in name to attract people. Yes, you are correct that ISKCON today attracts people because people are attracted to Srila Prabhupada, but AFTER you can see for yourself that his attraction to Srila Prabhupada dissapears and is replaced with attraction for profit, adoration and distinction. Nobody even cares what Srila Prabhupada’s orders are – I mean what big sin are IRM devotees doing that they need to be attacked – they are simply presenting a document with present VERBATIM Srila Prabhupada’s written orders ! ”
Remark :
Srila Prabhupada: “ISKCON is my body”
Thank you.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
B.Mark, your remarks are very much appreciated. I am also glad to note that when you say this ;
” So I found no ritvik based sankirtana movement to get initiated into and join up with in Alachua, but I found someone who helped me to see the truth of why that was, and we shared Krishna kattah in our own way which has benefited me spiritually more than every combined second of Iskcon association I have ever had X 1000. ”
Now that you have been benefited spiritually after meeting someone who helped you to see the truth through sharing Krishna Kattha, therefore, I am sure of it that you may share the same with other people of your like minded to make not only your life sublime in KC but others also.
Regarding discussions under the subject of this article, I have said enough which is abundantly clear based on reading the comments from the various participants which speaks itself and therefore, need no further explanation.
Hope it meets you well, B. Mark.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
BMark says, ” and how even when Prabhupada was here, most devotees only strictly followed when he was personally standing next to them, and even then many argued and rejected.” I guess BMark admits the chanting doesn’t do anything, hardly anyone could follow even when Prabhupada was standing next to them.
The Mouse still has not seen one original idea from anyone. no one here can think and use the brain that Krishna has given them. keep up the good work
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says: ” WOW Amara has me completely figured out. ”
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh…. come on Prabhu Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti, it is not all truth completely about you but partially truth indeed which has been revealed itself through the presentation of your comments , and I have expressed it through my various comments as well after reading carefully your presentation of the various writings in the comments under discussion. That’s all.
Now it is up to you, how you take it as per your free WILL.
Hope good council prevails for the preaching mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Oh bullocks Bk Mark! you just lost what ever credibility you had with these good old boys. Can’t you read? I’m the hog, dog, camel and ass, unworthy low life, cause of no DVD in IS-A-CON or the ‘nuga cult(or any of the cults since I have tried for them ALL) for the last 40 yrs! to stupid to know anything about TPC as Mehesh says.
“Can’t be done” is the mantra of the day on this subject.
Wait! didn’t I tell you that in 05’?? Why yes I did. I’m so sorry to have gotten it so right.
Know what I mean Vern?
Amara says))Ohhhhhhhhhhhh…. come on Prabhu Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti, it is not all truth completely about you but partially truth indeed which has been revealed itself through the presentation of your comments , and I have expressed it through my various comments as well after reading carefully your presentation of the various writings in the comments under discussion. That’s all.
LOL come on Amara stand up and have courage in your convictions and words. I can take it. I have taken it from devotees(?) for 40 yrs. No need to tap dance around, you nailed me good, stick with it!!
Bk Mark says)) Ah, another 3 varna brahmin.
You were right RCB. Sudra.
Yeah, but some times it feels bad to be right. I had some hope in the beginning of this thread.
Dear marica prabhu, No body like to get offended. Offence means disobedience to the Order of the Superior authority be it material authority or a Spiritual authority.
My comments are based on what you quoted from Krishnakant Prabhu. Unfortunately, instead of finding any wrong in my comments, you turned around to defend yourself and Krishnakant Prabhu without pointing out what is written wrong in my comments.
One has to be INSANE to say so. Isn’t it ?
Certainly I accept what HDG. Srila Prabhupada says ; ” ISKCON is my body “.
Now in that Iskcon body which is represented via Srila Prabhupada’s VANI is ALIVE. Isn’t it ?
People may accept or reject Srila Prabhupada’s VANI with their FREE will.
Does it make Srila Prabhupada dead ?
I also agree and acknowledge the activities of Krishnakant Prabhu to keep Srila Prabhupada VANI in tact.
Does that mean he is free from ALL four defects ?
Hope you dwell on these questions and then answer it.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti prabhu says ;
” Yeah, but some times it feels bad to be right. I had some hope in the beginning of this thread.”
No doubt, as it appears the ” intent and purpose ” is right but the bad feelings are the result of its out come of action through presentation of your comments which demonstrated who you are and what you are driven by your personal motive or agenda some sort.
As a result of its perception amongst the participants in the discussion brought out frustration as you are experienced now.
Let us avoid the frustration by selflessly rendering service for the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Ninny mouse,
That was hyperbole. Be original. Or at least mature, and take the essence.
I will set the example. You wrote: ” I guess BMark admits the chanting doesn’t do anything,”
I know you were employing hyperbole there. Do you understand what that means? I hope not, because if so you have been caught in hypocrisy. Of course being this is the age for that sort of thing, NONE of us are immune, including myself from time to time, but I appreciate it when I (or another) catches it so I can humble down.
Let’s see your best mouse impression now. I know you have it in you.
talk about blowing smoke. BhMark still has no original ideas of his own. he admits that Prabhupada was unable to get his own disciples to follow properly. the Pure Devotee, Krishna’s representative on Earth could not get his own disciples to follow properly, according to Bhmark. This is correct. Bhmark for once is correct. but is Bhamark smart enough to understand what he is saying? of course not. Prabhupada was Tri-Kala-Jna but didn’t know Kirtanananda was a homosexual pedophile. BhMark wants others to believe this contradiction. He knew past present and future but didn’t know Bhavs was blowing taxi drivers? BhMark wants everyone to believe this contradiction as well. so which is BhataMark? was Prabhupada Tri-Kala Jna and he knew Bhavs and Keith Ham were pedophiles or is this just a sham perpetrated on everyone?
” Yeah, but some times it feels bad to be right. I had some hope in the beginning of this thread
Amara d, that statement was for Bk Mark exclusively and in reference to conversations you(no one here) are not aware of, or privy to. Only he knows the context, so back off!
then you say)) No doubt, as it appears the ” intent and purpose ” is right but the bad feelings are the result of its out come of action through presentation of your comments which demonstrated who you are and what you are driven by your personal motive or agenda some sort.
As a result of its perception amongst the participants in the discussion brought out frustration as you are experienced now.
RCB)) Yet your colors are true and show in a glorious rainbow of politically/cultist correct attitude. Don’t brake an arm patting yourself on the back, because you ain’t all that, nor a bag of chips.
What transpired on this thread is just shits and giggles i do once on a while to check the general mood of devotees. i do not give you enough of my heart in these incidences to even think you could dramatically effect me one way or another here. Like always you put my words into a context you enjoy, rather than as they were said. (no one ever asks for clarification) then attribute your speculations to me as if you are some all knoiwing saint.
You have NO idea of my mode, mood or anything else that personal
that(my heart) i reserve for the DVD sanatanas, I do not think you are one of them. i will not share that with you.
you say)) Let us avoid the frustration by selflessly rendering service for the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
RCB)) WOW how NOT profound at all this is and adolescently cultist. As dismissively sinister today as it was 40 yrs ago. Same old mode of the sinister movement. Just the same old shite to ‘surrender’ to the authorities so we can all get along. I say BULLOCKS!! thank you NOT!!! No sudra leaders for me any more. Been there done that.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu !
In my humble opinion in the ritvik philosophy is not united stand in connection with Srila Prabhupada’s order. Outside or inside of ISKCON .
Of course you are right , Srila Prabhupada did not die. We can associate with Him if we follow the regulative principles srictly, read His books and chant 16 rounds.
But Srila Prabhupada’s body is ISKCON. So His movement should function according to His order because He wants to preach on the world-wide . Therefore the last verse of Bhagavad-gíta says:
“Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality.”
Unfortunately the anti-ritviks think of us , we are arrogant, we criticize others and we fight with each other. While we only just would like to serve Srila Prabhupada. But our experiences of life are different and for this our ways of thinging are also different.
the biggest problem is everyone , Like RCB wants to be the boss, the biggie, the Numero uno that answers to no one. Puranjana answers to no one, Yasodanandana answers to no one, Madhu Pandit answers to no one, KrishnaKant answers to no one, Hridayananada answers to no one, Bhaka Mark answers to no one, Amar Puri answers to no one, Abhaya Carana answers to no one, Mahesh Raja definitely answers to no one, Prabhupadanugas.Eu answers to no one, ISKCON Truth answers to no one, Marica answers to no one, Sudarsana answers to no one, Balaram answers to no one. so nothing gets done because there is no cooperation. Prabhupada wanted cooperation but you all reject that cooperation because, “just the same old shite to ‘surrender’ to the authorities so we can all get along. I say BULLOCKS!! thank you NOT!!! No sudra leaders for me any more. Been there done that.” Of course that is not what Prabhupada wanted. He never told RCB not to cooperate with anyone. quit the opposite, he said something about “if you love me, you will cooperate with each other.” so it seems according to Prabhupada, no one loves him. According to Prabhupada himself, none of you love him enough to even try to cooperate with each other. and you guys can’t see it. Can’t see the forest for the trees.
RCB says ; ” What transpired on this thread is just shits and giggles i do once on a while to check the general mood of devotees. i do not give you enough of my heart in these incidences to even think you could dramatically effect me one way or another here. Like always you put my words into a context you enjoy, rather than as they were said. (no one ever asks for clarification) then attribute your speculations to me as if you are some all knoiwing saint. ”
No need to speculate any thing. Your comments are written by you black on white which demonstrates who you are and what you are.
A humble person learns to take the responsibility by correcting ones act in order to make a further advancement in life and thus, avoid blame game showing full of FRUSTRATIONS.
I am not pretending to be any authority. The real authority is HDG. Srila Prabhupada to whom every one of us should render selfless service for propagating Krsna Consciousness according to our individual ability and capability to make respective lives sublime.
Now you take it as you please.
Hari BOL.
Ninny the Mouse wrote: “Krishna’s representative on Earth could not get his own disciples to follow properly, according to Bhmark”
My reply. Judging from your inane ranting, it is not surprising you have yet to grasp the concept of free will and choice. Whether any of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples followed his orders had nothing to do with him “getting them to do” anything. He was not there to control their free will. And of course he had great success because Krsna gave him the intelligence to mostly only insist on what they were capable of, and back off when they were resistant.
He loved them so much that in 1970 when “he couldn’t get them” to release him from false imprisonment in his apt for a week in LA unless he conceded to their demands, he played along and made lemonade with those lemons. What a genius! But for you to insist those crooked cheaters were willingly following his orders, and worse to insist it was his fault that although being tri-kala-jnana he was unable to “get them to do” what he wanted, is a reflection of your mental illness.
Get better soon.
its a reflection that you cannot answer the question. which was it, according to you?
marica prabhu ; your comments in reply to my last comment in the post are indeed wisely written, no doubt.
From its very beginning of this thread, I made comments particularly in the post which I reply to Bhakta William and re-produce part of it in reply to your question here below once again ;
( ” However, we the followers of Srila Prabhupada — VANI having lost LOVE AND TRUST in each other are not strong enough to unite each other.
That is why there are so much opposition in different Prabhupadanuga CAMP leaders as well as different individuals addressing their respective comments which are read here on this post under discussion.
Only an expert well qualified — dedicated Prabhupadanuga Leader free from all desire is able to unite us all through his Love and Trust in serving Srila Prabhupada mission.
May the blessings of Srila Prabhupada be upon us ALL. ” )
Informatively I may re-emphasize again that the main reason of being opposition in different Prabhupadanuga CAMP Leaders to name a few such as Guru Kripa, Yasodananadana, Hamsadutta and recently Krishnakant – IRM, MMP – IB, DND – Jaipur devotee group and various other groups world wide remain under the loss of ” LOVE & TRUST ” amongst each other which was present during the manifested lila of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
Right after the disappearance of HDG., the CHAOS manifested in the society of Srila Prabhupada Iskcon on account of the motivated disciples so called 11 gurus in which Hamsdutta was one of them which has distorted the Love and Trust amongst Srila Prabhupada’s followers.
Whereas in the present Iskcon leaders they have manipulated the situation to best suit their personal agendas and are going on with their cheating business of all kinds to satisfy their motives.
That is why different Prabhupadanuga groups are not only fighting each other as it seems but also to expose the cheating of the present Iskcon gurus business as well.
More later.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
For all those who are having still having difficulty understanding Srila Prabhupada’s motives and intentions for ordering division by varna in Iskcon,
Somebody was criticizing me that “Swamiji, you are introducing this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. People are becoming coward. They simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.” So I replied that “You will see the power of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in due course of time.”…
… So Vaiṣṇavas, they do not simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If there is need, they can fight under the guidance of Viṣṇu and become victorious…
If there is need of fighting, they can fight like very expert. That is also needed. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean one-sided. Kṛṣṇa as all-pervading, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement also should be all-pervading. It should touch everything, even politics, sociology, everything, if required. That is the aim…
…There is two mission: not only to give protection to the devotees, but also to kill the demons. To kill the demons, that is one side. So the devotees of Kṛṣṇa should be trained up both ways: not only to give protection to the devotees, to give them encouragement, but if need be, they should be prepared to kill the demons. That is Vaiṣṇavism. It is not cowardism. It is not cowardism…
…So those who are devotees of Kṛṣṇa, they should be trained up both ways, they should be prepared. BG 1.6-7 — London, July 11, 1973
So, sva-dharma. Sva-dharma means the division, kṣatriya division of the society. The brāhmaṇa division, the kṣatriya division, the vaiśya division and the śūdra division. Everything is required. It is not that śūdra is not required. Śūdra is required, but if you make propaganda simply to make people śūdras, then who will give direction? If there is no head, who will give the direction? So a kṣatriya, kṣatriya has got a very difficult task to see. Kṣatriya means government, the governing division. So the governing division has got a very important duty to see that everyone is following his duty. The brāhmaṇa is following his duty, a kṣatriya is following his duty, vaiśya is following the duty, and śūdra… That is, government’s duty…
…if one is claiming that he is a brāhmaṇa, it is the government’s duty to see whether he’s strictly following the brāhmaṇa principles:
Brāhmaṇa’s life should be very simple. They should not imitate the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas and the śūdras. So this principle, whether one is actually following the brahminical principle…
B.G. 2.31 — London, September 1, 1973
So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya. Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana. This is king’s duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra. But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so-called swamis are preaching, – 12/3/76, Hyderabad
And a couple more purports.
SB 4.14.18 : PURPORT :
SB 4.21.26 : PURPORT
Yes indeed ; ” Kṣatriya means government, the governing division. ”
That is why I asked Shriman RCB to answer the questions in an other post ;
What type of Ksatriya ; a/ Kamsa type Ksatriya or b / Vasudeva type Ksatriya to which he never answered.
Why ?
All of us know that there is Sasana in the contaminated – adulterated Society in the present Iskcon.
Therefore, the Kamsa type Ksatriya so called GBC management are controlling the adulterated present Iskcon and their members the way it best suit their needs.
Isn’t it, Bh. Mark ?
Now that it leaves behind you, Bh. Mark and I as an example like minded people lacking ” Love & Trust ” amongst us which has been distorted and thus, as a result of it, it seems fighting ourselves some time as it is happening under this discussion at present.
Who is the person amongst the Prabhupadanuga camps leader ” capable ” to unite us by gaining our lost ” Love & Trust ” by rendering selflessly service free from all desires for the mission of Srila Prabhupada ?
That person is the Vasudeva Ksatriya as a Leader who will be able to form the Government Srila Prabhupada is talking about and referring to us in His Divine Instructions.
Till then, it manifests such leader, we shall continue to serve the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada as per our Individual level as well as group level selflessly free from all desires.
Hope it helps you, Bh. Mark and meet the readers satisfactory.
Hari BOL.. OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar. I am not so grandiose or idealistic. Actually the point I am making is that a disciple of Srila Prabhupada’s who considers themselves a brahmana will be dividing those in his view by varna and asrama. And being sure they know what they are and help them see it.
Otherwise there is no brahmana.
It is simply division of labor. The biggest straw man argument I have been faced with is the assumption that I am insisting on something absolutely impossible. I have heard people ask me where are the phalanxes of warriors? Should we chop off a person’s hand if they steal? So many diversions.
RCB has faced the same thing. All I have ever preached is follow instructions and divide by DVD. It doesn’t matter what circumstance. Even a temple with a handful of devotees. If someone has the Ksatriya spirit, there should be certain duties that only they handle. And those inclined to Vaisya. The temple could be on a city lot with blacktop. Why define Vaisya out of the question if there is no farm?
It is the simplest thing. What I have witnessed is LESS THAN BRAHMANAS pretending at brahmana, and refusing to encourage AND SURRENDER to a Ksatriya to the degree that a brahmana is meant to surrender. Even saying the above has inevitably led to misunderstanding that I am saying a brahmana should be told what to do all day by a Ksatriya followed by some derogatory comment and the end of the communication.
Never a follow up inquiry for discussion. In what ways does a brahmana surrender to guidance from a Ksatryia in a Sankirtana based temple or community? In what ways does the Ksatriya surrender to the authority of the brahmana?
Never gets that far. After YEARS AND YEARS. Just derision and rejection out of hand. Justified with excuses like “Lord Caitanya rejected varnasrama”. Or a list of every quote given by Srila Prabhupada highlighting the near impossibility of VD in this age.
So, you may wonder what would drive me to bring it up every year or two? Or not. I am not sure what you wonder. But so far, except for a glimmer of neutrality from you on this comment thread, all I have seen is the same exact reaction, verbatim, as seen the last 8 years or so.
Thanks for your reply.
Hare Krsna
Wonderful “Swan eat Swan” discussion forum.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Bh. Mark says ;
” RCB has faced the same thing. All I have ever preached is follow instructions and divide by DVD. It doesn’t matter what circumstance. Even a temple with a handful of devotees. If someone has the Ksatriya spirit, there should be certain duties that only they handle. And those inclined to Vaisya. The temple could be on a city lot with blacktop. Why define Vaisya out of the question if there is no farm? ”
I am not in disagreement with you, Bh. Mark. As I pointed out in my various comments in reply to RCB comments that one has to start first from oneself because the body is designed naturally in the different divisions by the Laws of Nature which we read the same from the Creator when He speaks to enlighten us, the fallen Jivas in His Instructions known as Bhagavatgita and the same our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada has instructed us repeatedly in His VANI.
As the saying goes ; ” Practise is better than the Percept “. So, by practising the Varna-Ashram system in ones’ life, one begins to practise in the family, friends , in the community and so on.
Where is the problem ?
What is the need of all this writings ; ” So, you may wonder what would drive me to bring it up every year or two? Or not. I am not sure what you wonder. But so far, except for a glimmer of neutrality from you on this comment thread, all I have seen is the same exact reaction, verbatim, as seen the last 8 years
or so. ”
Does it not show your frustration because you are not able to follow the Varna- Ashram system in your personal life ?
As you said Bh. Mark in your remarks ; ” Amar. I am not so grandiose or idealistic. ”
The same I am saying, our practise does not have to be idealistic in the beginning but you and I for an example have to start some where to establish the Varna – Ashram system as I have seen many families are striving for it.
Hope it ends this discussion.
OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Balaram das,
Relevant to your comment, two proverbs come to mind.
“The pot calls the kettle black.” and
“If you don’t have something constructive to say, why say anything at all?”
I realize you only took a small bite, but did you enjoy your snack?
Hare Krsna
Balaram das says: ” Wonderful “Swan eat Swan” discussion forum. ”
I find the above remarks totally irrelevant to the discussion we are having.
Swan learns from other Swan how to fly home Back to Godhead. That is the discussion for its preparation we are having under the guidance of HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
To say such remarks ” Swant eat Swan ” ignorantly is INSANE.
Isn’t it, Balaram das ?
HDG. Srila Prabhupada explains in the Srimad Bhagavatam 4.4.13
“Everthing depends on the strength of the recipient. For example, due to the scorching sunshine many vegetables and flowers dry up, and many grow luxuraintly. Thus it is the recipient that causes growth and dwindling. Similarly, mahiyasam pado rajo abhishekam: the dust of the lotus feet of great personalities offers all good to the recipient, but the same dust can also do harm. Those who are offenders at the lotus feet of a great personality dry up, their godly qualities diminish…………………..”
So, Dear Readers, let us be very careful in our CRITICISM.
Om Tat Sat.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada..
Dear Amar,
you said: As the saying goes ; ” Practise is better than the Percept “. So, by practising the Varna-Ashram system in ones’ life, one begins to practise in the family, friends , in the community and so on. Where is the problem ?
My reply” The problem is the wholesale rejection of implementing DVD in these discussions between devotees. Or did you miss that part? By your logic, since there is not a single devotional community based on DVD, then NO devotees are practicing it individually. After all, if they were, it would spread from their family, to their friends, to their community, as you put it.
So where is it? Show me ONE community of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples where there is at least ONE recognized member of each of 4 varnas cooperating as a Sankirtana team dividing all newcomers according to varna, and preaching it as essential.
I have seen with my own eyes that RCB is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who practices as far as possible DVD at his home, and has children who generally do not choose to accept him as authority. Did you read the “missing” conversation posted on Rocana’s Sampradaya Sun today? The one where Prabhupada is lamenting how almost none of his disciples seem to be understanding and/or following his instructions. Calling them traitors?
SP “What can I do? I say that you shall remain fixed up in this way, but if you do not accept it, then how can I help you? If I say that “Don’t dry your knife on your neck,” and if you do it, so how can I save you?”
So RCB preaches to his family and to local devotees and on the internet. Devotees who do not appear to be demonstrating that they follow DVD at all by your own standard. So RCB thinks maybe some on the internet are like himself and try to but no one will listen. So he puts it out there. And what he hears back is that no one is trying because of many excuses. And you say that they are not following DVD and rejecting RCB’s DVD preaching because RCB is not practicing what he preaches?
Was Prabhupada not practicing what he preached? Is that why so many rejected him and became traitors?
Or maybe it is because although the preaching is perfect, they reject anyway because they can choose to by free will? All I hear are reasons not to come together and divide according to DVD. Just continue living separate scattered all over the world and preach ritvik on the internet. Or visit one of the few ritvik temple projects around the world but forget bringing up DVD because it is impractical. After learning that attitude why would I want to go to Bangalore or any other Ritvik project if they were just speculating in their own way as to how to manage things?
Thanks again for this consideration if you choose to continue considering it. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna
Dear Amar & B Mark prabhus, thanks for comments.
As you say Amar… ‘let us be careful in our criticism’, so while appreciating your ongoing posts, just nice to see cool heads & Vaisnava etiquette prevail in this important discussion. No offense intended .
Yhs,
Balaram das.
There comes a point where the discussion is useless. The conclusion of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the result of the discussion with Sri Roy Ramananda. This does NOT disregard DVD but is the higher principal.
That is the real point here. DVD comes automatically and is not something that is ‘implemented’ by vote or group consensus. Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is making it easy for us because in age of Kali we are all Sudras so this is his mercy because He is Spiritual Master and Srila Prabhupada. At beginning of this article are the words ” Any opinion which is different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless” If ‘THE CONCLUSION’ of Lord SRI Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (who is God Himself) is NOT the opinion of the Spiritual Master then what is it then? What is It?
Vaisnava Dasanudas
Sudarsana
Sudarsana Das Vanacari: DVD comes automatically and is not something that is ‘implemented’ by vote or group consensus
Mahesh: Good point. If we see the PRESENT situation many devotees are NOT even chanting their prescribed 16 rounds of Hare Krsna Maha Mantra. So under THIS condition WHAT extra instruction will they take?
Srila Prabhupada at one point ALSO stopped Sannyasa in 1977. WHY? because they did NOT want follow. They wanted to be SEX-yasis and SIN-yasis. Srila Prabhupada was NOT going to compromise on the STANDARDS.
FIRST business is CHANTING Hare Krsna Maha-Mantra THEN other things FOLLOW as a RESULT. Ceto darpana marjanam FIRST. Chanting Hare Krsna CLEARS the heart of material contamination THEN Varnasrama. In ISKCON we see they are NOW putting on a SHOW of being devotees by SCREWING MONEY BIG SALARY. How long will the SHOW last? There is NOTHING there. ALL SUPERFICIAL! Look at Bhaktivedanta Manor UK NOW. The Hindus come give money watch some jumping and dancing FOR MONEY go home. NOBODY is attracted to become DEVOTEES as it happened in 1970s – it is GONE!
Under THIS conditions it is BEST to SIMPLY CONCENTRATE on CHANTING Hare Krsna: “THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED”
TLK Vs 14 Bhakti-yoga: The Supreme Yoga System
In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.” (Brhan-naradiya Purana) ALTHOUGH WE MAY TRY TO REVIVE THE PERFECT VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE IN THIS AGE. PEOPLE ARE FALLEN, DISTURBED AND UNFORTUNATE:
prayenalpayusah sabhya
kalav asmin yuge janah
mandah sumanda-matayo
manda-bhagya hy upadrutah
“O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.” (Bhag. 1.1.10) In this age, there will be insufficient rainfall and food, and the government will plunder one’s income by heavy taxation. All of these characteristics of Kali-yuga are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. People will become so disgusted that they will suddenly leave their wife and children and go to the forest. HOW CAN THE PEACEFUL VARNASRAMA-DHARMA BE REVIVED WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO HARASSED IN THIS AGE? IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE SYSTEM OF BHAKTI-YOGA, THE CHANTING OF THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, SHOULD BE ADOPTED. The whole aim of bhakti-yoga is to satisfy Visnu. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih: Visnu, Krsna, came Himself as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us the way of sankirtana.
From his comments of Bh. Mark, it appears that he continues dwelling on his frustrations. He puts up a question and later he answers himself without noticing what he is saying.
Here is an example of it. I have said in my comments that the Varna-Ashram division is there already existing. Then, he gives the example of Shriman RCB who is practising himself. Wonderful. That is what I am saying exactly.
Now he wants to practise with his own family but unfortunately his family refuses to practise. Certainly, that is the challenge we all of us face when the family is not cooperating for the reason on account of their free will as Srila Prabhupada also confirms it in the quote as posted by Bh. Mark.
It is good to know that Shriman RCB is following Varna-Ashram, Bh. Mark is also following as it seems, Amar Puri is also following and other many families I happened to know are also following.
We all know that HDG. Srila Prabhupada has gained His ” Love & Trust ” from all of His followers. It is a fact that some of them defy His Order and that is why Srila Prabhupada shows His concern for them because He is the ocean of mercy always ready to forgive the conditioned jivas who disobey His order.
Therefore, Srila Prabhupada is certainly an exemplary for all of us in learning so many things. That is why He is the Spiritual Master – a Perfect Leader.
Now who is that Ksathria – Leader amongst the people I mentioned in my example above who are putting their ” Love & Trust ” to each other ?
Bh. Mark answer to this specific question please ?
As I suggest in my various post that only a selfless leader free from all desires rendering service for the mission of HDG. Srila Prabhupada is able to gain the lost ” Love & Trust ” and can unite us the Individual and different group of Individual of Prabhupadanuga’s camps.
Till then, we have to continue practising KC. at our own respective level in order to make our lives sublime.
Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar. I was the first to ask questions, and received no relevant answers. You claim imply my questions are more like comments masking my frustration, which is a convenient way to refuse an answer. Your other tactic appears to be to claim that you have stated that DVD is already existing, implying all questions as to how to implement it are simply irrelevant. This appears another variant of the claim that it DVD happens “automatically”. Yet such a claim is certainly a rebuke of Srila Prabhupada’s perception that it was not “already existing” leading to his many detailed orders that we “implement” DVD by dividing labor specifically according to those roles.
Another item that leaves me at a loss is the suggestion that in order for one to act in the ksatryia varna they must be selfless and free of all desire. By that standard, none of could be initiated and further none would qualify for any varna. Yet we are somehow then qualified to engage in 64 devotional processes according to our spontaneous impulse? A state of conditioned impurity is THE EPITOME of already being in some varna or other, thus the need to recognize it clearly and dovetail it in devotional activities to become pure. Only those as pure as Lord Caitanya could reject DVD and even “lower” rasas for gopi bhava 24/7. Prabhupada said ENOUGH OF FAKING THAT MOOD, BE WHO YOU ARE AND PROGRESS FROM THERE.
At this point my diagnosis of the problem is as follows. The suggestion that separated individual devotees around the world discuss DVD in order to further understand it and perhaps use that as a framework to come together for further organized cooperation is resisted as a senseless rhetorical exercise. The idea of preaching from afar to already existing ritvik temples that they should implement DVD is rejected as an attempt from some outsider trying to control others, although technically it is the innocent act preaching to devotees repeating an order from the Spiritual master they claim to follow.
The excuse to reject fis that DVD is so close to impossible in this age, that Mahesh and Sudarsana agree that the only way for anyone to become pure enough to follow it is to chant the Maha mantra, and gradually DVD will come. Sudarsana specifically said the following.
When I made the statement “Forget DVD” I am NOT rejecting DVD! I was simply making the point that it is not a priority. If the devotional community is fragmented then how can you implement? DVD will progress ONLY when you have a community to start with and to do that firstly you need a vehicle to advance Society INCREMENTALLY which means A FOUNDATION to 1. Distribute Srila Prabhupada’s books (and other previous Acharyas) 2. To propagate the chanting of the Maha Mantra 3. Create a system of Madhukari. 4. To distribute Krishna Prasad.
Here, he lists all the activities devotees in a temple are meant to do as the priority. Yet, if devotees do not have a prior understanding of DVD, what is the basis on which they cooperate to execute these activities? When Prabhupada was here, he was literally guiding devotees in these very activities and he decided that they needed to better understand their actual position within varnas and asramas to be successful. His priority became to DEMAND this be the management scheme. But Sudarsana and Mahesh and apparently yourself believe that somehow any one of us can lead a group in these activities using our own management concept and eventually DVD will “automatically” arise. It appears Prabhupada did not share that opinion.
Sudarsana goes further to reject temple worship: “Temple worship just creates institutionalism, parochialism, pratistha, envy, and separatism, and a culture of slavery.”… In the western countries especially, people are always attracted to museums (and with pay a small fee) THIS IS THE KEY TO ENABLE EVERYTHING ELSE TO BE FUNDED’. “If you ‘START’ with a temple you have already ELIMINATED 95% of your potential visitors. Forget DVD! In the age of Kali EVERYONE is sudra. or lower. To CHANGE society, you have to EDUCATE society, To EDUCATE society you need to ATTRACT them! To do this VEDIC MUSEUM is required.
Here he is making administrative decisions on what type of operation to engage devotees in to make money, outside of a temple program. This is what a Ksatriya does, outlines and administrates a plan for the Vaisyas and sudras for activity in public who then implement it. Of course a brahmana can do this as well, and even a Vaisya or a well trained intelligent sudra if need be. But all activities are MOST SUCCESSFUL, when a person is acting within the varna that comes most naturally to them and even better that they are trained for. Therefore in all cases DVD should AT LEAST be discussed so we better understand where we are already. In addition, training of devotees considered in cases where a group is off balance due to lack of expertise in some varna.
Instead I see nearly wholesale rejection of discussion of DVD when it comes up once a year or less, near wholesale rejection of the idea of improving current groups by adding a little DVD consideration. Sudarshan speaks of educating the public. Prabhupada spoke of educating devotees first and boiling the milk.
Regardless of rhetoric in his purports noting the difficulty of DVD in Kali Yuga, Srila Prabhupada was ADAMANT it could and should be done by his disciples, and gave repeated and detailed instructions on how to go about it. This is a fact. And if anything I have said can be refuted, then do it exactly. Otherwise, I would rather others just admit I have a good point, even if they never want to discuss it again. Instead I hear all sorts of weak and irrelevant refutations of what I am saying which is hard to bear and I must reply.
Hare Krsna
B.Mark says:But Sudarsana and Mahesh and apparently yourself believe that somehow any one of us can lead a group in these activities using our own management concept and eventually DVD will “automatically” arise. It appears Prabhupada did not share that opinion.
Mahesh: if you look at Dayalu Nitai’s Jaipur-India and Nityananda’s Fiji PRACTICAL applications THAT seems more like START-UP Varnasrama Projects they have got farms, cows, devotees WITH SRILA PRABHUPADA AS DIKSA GURU AT THE CENTER AND RITVIK SYSTEM. OTHERWISE, best FIRST concentrate on chanting Hare Krsna Maha Mantra just like Madhu Pandit Bangalore folks they have temples, devotees centers and they just invite people to chant Hare Krsna and distribute profuse prasadam. Srila Prabhupada also wanted resturants and we see some devotees are doing this so prasadam is distributed and people can hear some Hare Krsna with Srila Prabhupada OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU chanting low sound (many Srila Prabhupada Hare Krsna mantra melodies now available) in BACK GROUND tape, mp3. This way ordinary people can get to HEAR Srila Prabhupada be INITIATED in Hare Krsna BY Srila Prabhupada their SPIRITUAL LIVES BEGIN even without their knowing.
Here is what Srila Prabhupada had in mind for Varnasrama:
Room Conversation with Devotees
—
August 1, 1975, New Orleans
Prabhupāda: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, śamaḥ, damaḥ, fully controlled. When they like, they become gṛhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brāhmaṇa. For brāhmaṇa it is not compulsory to marry. Kṣatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is… They must…They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls’ marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.
Hṛdayānanda: From the husband.
Prabhupāda: At least for one and half years.
Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother’s milk for six months at least continually, he’ll become healthy for life.
Upendra: Where do they send that mother?
Prabhupāda: Where they’ll take care.
Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she…?
Prabhupāda: Our aim is not to give help, but not… Generally she goes to the father’s house. So you can have separate building for that.
Nityānanda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife?
Prabhupāda: I have no objection.
Satsvarūpa: That’s a difficult proposition.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Satsvarūpa: It’s not allowed in this country. It’s illegal. It’s against the law.
Devotee: It’s against the law.
Nityānanda: No, it’s a matter of… No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have…
Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult.
Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.
Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don’t want. We don’t want ordinary karmīs and… And if he agrees to be trained up, then we’ll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.
Satsvarūpa: Everything we do, we don’t hide it. We show the world what we’re doing. I don’t see how we could hide that one man had many different wives.
Prabhupāda: If you don’t call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the… Instead of calling “husband,” call “friend.” That’s all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep… To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.
Brahmānanda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.
Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.
Nityānanda: The general public objects to that… It’s very…
Prabhupāda: Public we don’t care. We… What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub… What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don’t give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that’s all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūḍhas, they have been described, mūḍhas. You know the meaning of mūḍha?
Devotee (1): Ass.
Prabhupāda: Ass. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama.
Nityānanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?
Prabhupāda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community.
Devotee (1): Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men… They can (indistinct) responsible.
Prabhupāda: No, it is service (?).
Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupāda… When I heard about New Vrindaban… I’ve not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I’ve talked with devotees have been there.
Prabhupāda: Near.
Upendra: One would think because there’s land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables… I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the… That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk?
Upendra: I don’t know. I can’t say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk…
Prabhupāda: I don’t think so.
Devotee (1): I have heard that.
Prabhupāda: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they… Just like Nanda Mahārāja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they… Instead of dahl, they use this whey, for capati. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct).
Satsvarūpa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other…
Prabhupāda: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They’ll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don’t convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become… What is called?
Brahmānanda: Curd.
Prabhupāda: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandeśa, rasagullā and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayātrā festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it—”Very nice.”
Brahmānanda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy-five cents.
Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. Nobody should sit down. Brāhmaṇas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven’t got to work. Sannyāsī is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, and rajo-guṇa very active, and sattva-guṇa, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guṇa, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guṇa means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guṇa. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than… And keep everyone active, man or woman-all. Then it will be ideal society.
Nityānanda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?
Prabhupāda: Hand machine.
Nityānanda: Hand machine?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Nityānanda: Metal?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that’s good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They’re taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.
Brahmānanda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.
Prabhupāda: And all criminals.
Brahmānanda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.
Prabhupāda: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that “What to do about crime?” This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.
Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he’s getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he’s using that money to buy drugs. So now he’s completely trapped.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.
Prabhupāda: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl’s getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.
Satsvarūpa: That’s very prominent.
Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on.
Brahmānanda: So this is the varṇāśrama system that you are…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college…
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the… Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or…?
Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven’t got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.
Devotee (1): Distributing books?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any… Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.
Devotee: What kind of tax?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means… Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn’t require any… They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others’ contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they’ll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that “I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent.”
Brahmānanda: Twenty-five percent of the produce?
Prabhupāda: Whatever you have produced.
Brahmānanda: Not necessarily money.
Prabhupāda: No.
Brahmānanda: But the produce.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: The grains or the milk or whatever.
Prabhupāda: Whatever, yes. “Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land.” So that is resource of the land.
Devotee (1): How does the kṣatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?
Prabhupāda: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they’ll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they’ll have respect?
Devotee (1): So the kṣatriya is the predominator of the land.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya is the owner of the land.
Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: …palace.
Prabhupāda: They, śūdras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. “Eat and work, take some pocket…” They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They’ll drink. That’s all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That’s all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred story building and…? And then you don’t produce anything, eat fish. “And let me eat…” Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.
Jagadīśa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called… In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king.
Devotee (1): Just like Nanda Mahārāja, he also had land. Nanda Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaiśya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the gopīs. (laughter) Then mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, “My good son is sleeping.” And the gopīs also would come at a place and they’ll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king. In the Kṛṣṇa’s life, He’s always busy. Kṛṣṇa… You’ll never find from the very beginning of His life He’s busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They’ll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. “Oh, Kṛṣṇa is there. He will kill.” This is Vṛndāvana. There is no need and I don’t find in Bhāgavata big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don’t live in the city, you don’t require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that “You are going to the farm in a car.” So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart—where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory.
Satsvarūpa: Insurance.
Prabhupāda: Insur… So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, “In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted.” They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.
Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others…
Prabhupāda: No… Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three… Then… And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That’s all. “Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That’s all.” Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don’t require, but even if it is required we can give.
Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members…
Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to… The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class…
Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.
Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm?
Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then… Take your time (?).
Nityānanda: You can have more than one?
Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.
Jagadīśa: Cobbler?
Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare… He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he’ll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class… Not that “Professor such-and-such,” and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa—teacher means brāhmaṇa—and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I’ll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole… Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world… And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live… Andhā yathāndhair… They are blind, and they are leading… Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is… Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible… This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: “Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I’m getting very easily food and shelter.” Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: “Oh, he is trying.” ‘Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I’ll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He’ll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they’re all going to hell. Nature’s law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: “You work in this way.” She’ll work. She’ll work. She’ll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary-indigestion. “Indigestion, starve.” This is nature’s law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that “You don’t do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries.” Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava’s qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others’ distress. This is Vaiṣṇava. (end)
Note: Srila Prabhupada IS the THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF ***ALL*** THE VARNAS (BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, VAISYA AND SUDRA) AND ALL THE ASRAMAS (BRAHMACARYA, GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA AND SANNYASA). The Ritvik System is the BONAFIDE way to MAKE Brahmanas 2nd Initiations as per July 9th 1977 Ritvik Directive – THIS then arrange Varnasrama otherwise simply chant Hare Krsna.
Antya 7.12 The Meeting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Vallabha Bhatta
“You have spread the sankirtana movement of Krsna consciousness. Therefore it is evident that You have been empowered by Lord Krsna. There is no question about it.
Antya 7.12 The Meeting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Vallabha Bhatta
Sri Madhvacarya has brought our attention to this quotation from the Narayana-samhita:
dvapariyair janair visnuh
pancaratrais tu kevalaih
kalau tu nama-matrena
pujyate bhagavan harih
“in the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name.” SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA EXPLAINS THAT UNLESS ONE IS DIRECTLY EMPOWERED BY THE CAUSELESS MERCY OF KRSNA, ONE CANNOT BECOME THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD (JAGAD-GURU). ONE CANNOT BECOME AN ACARYA SIMPLY BY MENTAL SPECULATION. THE TRUE ACARYA PRESENTS KRSNA TO EVERYONE BY PREACHING THE HOLY NAME OF THE LORD THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsna’s mercy. indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna. HE IS THEREFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF ALL THE VARNAS (BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, VAISYA AND SUDRA) AND ALL THE ASRAMAS (BRAHMACARYA, GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA AND SANNYASA). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura.
Bhakta Mark
Because I am trained in Conceptual Design which is one of the FEW things I am good at, that qualifies me in the field of ‘Concepts’ that’s all. If others don’t understand, then why should I be concerned. Everything is up to Krishna I will just ‘chant and be happy’ that’s all. A concept is a ‘problem solving’ process which is ‘RESULTS’ orientated not a flight of fancy. Design has nothing to do with administration, that is for others to sort out (unless you are designing an administrative concept). I am not making any ‘administrative decisions for other devotees to follow’ that is nonsense what gives you that Idea. Every ‘element’ of a conceptual Idea has a ‘rationale’ or reason. Why do you say I ‘reject’ temple worship? Don’t talk rubbish. Is this word ‘reject’ your favourite word?
Now you are suggesting the notion of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself “rejecting DVD” what is this! or that because He is in the mood of conjugal love “rejects” the “lower rasas”. There is no “lower” that is material concept there is only increase of intensity from neutrality, servitor, friend, parent, and finally conjugal. All rasas are perfect and complete in themselves, there is No question of “lower”. Conjugal rasa means that all the other rasas are included. All are included but conjugal has greatest intensity so because of this it is prominent, but all others are included. There is no question of rejecting that is nonsense!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Where do you read this ; ” that in order for one to act in the ksatryia varna they must be selfless and free of all desire. ” as you wrote in the comments, Bh. Mark ?
Yes, this is what, I did write else where in my comments that what type of ksatryia,;
a/ Kamsa Ksatriya or b / Vasudeva Ksatriya.
Yes, this is also what I wrote ; ” As I suggest in my various post that only a selfless leader free from all desires rendering service for the mission of HDG. Srila Prabhupada is able to gain the lost ” Love & Trust ” and can unite us the Individual and different group of Individual of Prabhupadanuga’s camps.
Till then, we have to continue practising KC. at our own respective level in order to make our lives sublime. ”
In the above a selfless leader free from all desires rendering service for the mission of HDG. Srila Prabhupada indicates that he has to be a Vaishnava free from all desire who is able to gain the lost ” Love & Trust ” amongst us can unite us ALL.
It is not a Kamsa type Ksatriya Leader who can unite us all as I have explained it else where because he can not gain the lost ” Love & Trust ” amongst all of us Prabhupadanuga’s camp both the Individuals and the group of Individuals.
So, please do not fabricate something which I did not say in order not only to confuse yourself but to the readers also for useless – unproductive discussion as you have given comments out of context in your writings.
Now, where is the answer I ask specifically to my question which reads as follows ;
Now who is that Ksathria — Leader amongst the people I mentioned in my example above who are putting their ” Love & Trust ” to each other ?
Bh. Mark answer to this specific question please ?
In order to take further meaningful discussion, please refrain from commenting out of context and answer the questions you are asked for.
Hope it meets you well, Bh. Mark ?
I wrote: For all those who are having still having difficulty understanding Srila Prabhupada’s motives and intentions for ordering division by varna in Iskcon,
Then quoted Prabhupada: “So, sva-dharma. Sva-dharma means the division, kṣatriya division of the society. The brāhmaṇa division, the kṣatriya division, the vaiśya division and the śūdra division. Everything is required. Kṣatriya means government, the governing division. So the governing division has got a very important duty to see that everyone is following his duty. The brāhmaṇa is following his duty, a kṣatriya is following his duty, vaiśya is following the duty, and śūdra.
Amar wrote: Yes indeed ; ” Kṣatriya means government, the governing division. ” That is why I asked Shriman RCB to answer the questions in an other post
What type of Ksatriya ; a/ Kamsa type Ksatriya or b / Vasudeva type Ksatriya to which he never answered. Why ? …
Who is the person amongst the Prabhupadanuga camps leader ” capable ” to unite us by gaining our lost ” Love & Trust ” by rendering selflessly service free from all desires for the mission of Srila Prabhupada ?
That person is the Vasudeva Ksatriya as a Leader who will be able to form the Government Srila Prabhupada is talking about and referring to us in His Divine Instructions.
Till then, it manifests such leader, we shall continue to serve the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada as per our Individual level as well as group level selflessly free from all desires.
———————————————————————–
In that context Amar, you are the one who made the leap to assume I was referring to some devotee “to unite us all”. That was YOUR definition of Ksatriya. If you read MY words, I was simply referring to Srila Prabhupada’s order for any group of devotees to divide by varna.
Any group of devotees already has a de-facto leader. Is that person selfless and free of desire? Is that person expected to unify every devotee on earth? Not by me.
You just accused me of fabricating something you did not say. But it appears that you ignored what I was saying and set your own standard for the discussion. I assumed that you were responding to me, and that your idea of a Ksatriya was as you stated. But you were imagining a different conversation about someone to unify everyone.
And you continue to press me to give you an answer to this hypothetical question that you concocted, regarding something not even mentioned by Prabhupada, and not in the context of the points I was raising, and accuse me of what you actually are doing.
It doesn’t bother me, everyone makes mistakes, but it will bother me if you ignore this fact and continue on in this way.
Hare Krsna
Sudarsana wrote: Why do you say I ‘reject’ temple worship? Don’t talk rubbish. Is this word ‘reject’ your favourite word?
My reply. I quoted your exact words in the comment you just replied to! Rubbish? Here I will quote them again.
June 17 5:41am It is better to increase the consciousness of society ‘jncrementally’ as all that is required is the Acharya and Maha Mantra. Temple worship just creates institutionalism, parochialism, pratistha, envy, and separatism, and a culture of slavery. Better to have an VEHICLE to promote ‘science of self realisation’, book distribution, prasadam distribution, and madhukari. In the western countries especially, people are always attracted to museums (and with pay a small fee) THIS IS THE KEY TO ENABLE EVERYTHING ELSE TO BE FUNDED as it is a public space; people are not put off by ‘Religeous Difference’. If you ‘START’ with a temple you have already ELIMINATED 95% of your potential visitors.”
I have never heard such a vicious condemnation of temple worship from anyone, forget anyone claiming to be following Srila Prabhupada. You said all we require is “the acarya”. Makes me wonder which acarya. You can conceptually speculate for an eternity, but if it is not within the Acarya’s guidelines, you will only concoct problems NOT solutions.
As far as the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda raya. I know good and well about the rasas and how they are one yet different due to transcendental variety of taste. The reason I said “lower” rasas was because it appears you misjudge the essence of that conversation and have jumped on the bandwagon of using that conversation as a reason to de-prioritize, temporarily ignore (REJECT) DVD by claiming it is low priority and nearly impossible in this age. I wrote a very lengthy post that you all ignored putting that conversation into context using Srila Prabhupada’s own references to that conversation in support of his disciples utilizing DVD. Your first quote on the issue told me all I needed to know.
“We should accept the conclusion of Sri Ramananda Roy and accept him as Acharya however even though he was from the Sudra class. The special mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the conclusion of this exchange with Sri Ramanada Roy completely showers the conditioned souls with special mercy by the adherence to Guru Tattva and the chanting of the Maha Mantra. Even though DVD is an aspect of Vedic Culture that is significant, (particularly in previous Yugas) its importance has been amplified out of all proportion by Raja Catur Das Bhakti ”
VD was the first thing mentioned by Ramananda raya because it is the most external of transcendental practices and thus MOST EASILY accepted and practiced by those who are GROSSLY EXTERNALLY CONDITIONED. The direct implication of your statement and even the USE of that conversation is that somehow there is special mercy to go HIGHER than DVD. And there is. FOR THOSE WHO BY SUKRTI CAN TAKE THAT DIRECTLY. But ALL the suggestions, from the mixed devotional stage (DVD) to the unalloyed stage (santa and “higher”) are transcendental practice. And PRABHUPADA ordered DVD for ALL. Obviously that was HIS SPECIAL MERCY seeing the actual qualification of his societies members, and what they could DIRECTLY engage in. Just READ the conversation where his disciples are arguing against DVD GIVING THE SAME ARGUMENTS YOU DO. “All we need to do is chant”. “Isn’t VD for “neophytes”. Prabhupada replies “yes but who will chant like Haridas thakura?, you are all falling down from that standard so DVD is REQUIRED.” Then he says “yes neophyte means qualified brahmana, it is very big thing. without neophyte there is no question of Vaisnava”. It was HIS SILVER BULLET for Iskcon, so take it up with HIM.
My earlier (ignored) comment on this thread was quite thorough, born of years of countering the “Ramananda raya” excuse of why to “ignore” “de-prioritize”, essentially REJECT dvd, which is supposed to be the first thing we understand in order to base all our cooperative sankirtana activities. That way, you don’t have sudras “conceptualizing” all sorts of crazy disneyland projects, vegan restaurants, and whatever else is floating around in the conditioned brain.
And as far as conceptual design, every varna has problem solving capacity within their sphere of duty, being blessed with intellect and some degree of ability to conceptualize. The broad conceptual design for Iskcon is done. Patented by the Acarya. Off limits to speculation. Within that design there is plenty of room for each individual to be conceptually creative in their sphere. If you don’t understand the sphere of responsibility for each varna, within Iskcon, I suggest you read and educate yourself. Any activity not limited to the temple, including SOME projects in public for outreach are Ksatriya duties. A Ksatriya is just a militant brahamana. His intellectual capacity is very similar. He is the one to look out into the community and “conceive” of how best to organize the devotee work force, to conceptualize, administer, and oversee all projects that are not directly brahminical in nature and able to be micromanaged by brahmanas (temple functions). So whether it is creation of museums, restaurants, farms, it is Ksatriyas who would do so. Brahmanas would act to the Ksatriya as the GBC is meant to act with Temple Presidents. Oversee. As in let them do as they like and keep an eye on it to make sure what they do meets spiritual standards, but NOT INTERFERE. If the Ksatriya needs counsel, he knows to approach the brahmana. And usually meets with them for regularly for discussion anyway at which point Brahmanas naturally give suggestions.
The problem is so called brahmanas who are nothing but vaisyas and sudras who steal the service of Ksatriyas and live like Kings, using the karmi force of law/arms to keep Vaisnava devotee ksatriyas at bay. Whenever you hear someone advocating a 3 varna system, brahmana vaisya sudra, you can be sure they are NOT a brahmana.
Hare Krsna Bk Mark
It has been almost 10 yrs we know each other. In that time you have seen with your own eyes the sinister rhetoric and argument against DVD for the followers of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada. (LOL just kind of rolls off the tongue doesn’t it) Recycled endlessly as originated from the first generation of sinister quasi disciples. Especially we get a good look and education from this 1977 conversation where Satsvarupa and Harisauri are the lead dissidents to DVD in rejecting this Vedic culture.
So much I explained to you then, you can unfortunately see with your own heart now. Did I lie to you?
What is going on here is EXACTLY the same sinister arguments that Prabhupada defeats in these conversation 37 yrs ago. A thing is as it does. That means these devotees are sinister and reject Srila Prabhupada just as they accuse others of doing. That makes them even MOIRE sinister I think. Hiding behind reform, where actually nothing has changed!!
just more sudra leaders wearing the dress of higher varnas, while speaking against the guru they claim adherence too. reject DVD now? reject Prabhupada!
I say if there is NO DVD then there are NO fringing brahmanas!! If everyone is sudra then so is the cheating brahmana. All your deity worship is idolatry, all rtvik initiations were there is no DVD is sahsjism. what is transpiring here is as sudric as we have seen in the past and in line with the same sinister reaction to attempts at preaching DVD as Prabhupada got from Satsvarupa and that other dog Harisauri.
The devotee that says ‘we follow the books of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami’ but rejects DVD, as these *&^^$#@ are doing here, is a great big fat cat CHEATER extraordinaire. No, not so extraordinary, in fact quit common and sinister would be a better description and in perfect line with their Kali chela gurus Satsvarupa and Harisauri.. Just another degraded cult
Now did I not tell you about this when we first met? why yes I did. Sickening isn’t it?? Now you know what I have endure since 1974.
Even in this conversation snippet about initiation, we can see the bottom line in actually DVD. but these devotees reject that conclusion. I did not see where Prabhupada mentions rtvik as a save all scheme for society
But I did see Prabhupada say that about DVD.
Kamsa or Vasudeva? I think devotees have seen Kamsa as their leaders in all these yrs. They do not deserve Vasudeva or Ramaraja. As Prabhupada has said of a cheating population. Kamsa is whom they still deserve and have, so good luck with that!! They can go to the Holy dhama and instead of paraikama they can do Disney land and forgo the ACTUAL sites of pastimes.
And least we forget about the ‘new’ and improved Prabhupada murti hand sign pose. So similar to the sign of the devil karmis use. As to only cause alarm among those devotees that can understand such deviations and changes for what they are. All coming from their Kamsa leaders.
So they already have Kamsa and are quite happy with him. Best leave it, they get so upset when we try for them, best leave them to Kamsa and all their derogatory arguments contrary to Prabhupada’s expressed instructions.
same as I said 10 yrs ago to you, is here today. As it has been from 74′, sinister is as sinister does!
Besides we know Vasudeva would never preside over such a population/congregation that rejects DVD. first they must follow Vedic culture, then he would agree to be responsible. Same as Prabhupada writes in his books. First deserve, then desire.
No Vasudeva would not be caught dead in a sinister cult devoid of DVD
Bk Mark says)) The problem is so called brahmanas who are nothing but vaisyas and sudras who steal the service of Ksatriyas and live like Kings, using the karmi force of law/arms to keep Vaisnava devotee ksatriyas at bay. Whenever you hear someone advocating a 3 varna system, brahmana vaisya sudra, you can be sure they are NOT a brahmana.
RCB)) Nail on the head, same as it ever was and is in the sinister land of sahajism run by Kamsa and his followers.
Bhakta Mark
Srila Prabhupada was murdered in the Dham of Vrindavan. In the temple which is in the most holy of places. Temple worship in the age of Kali is for the less intelligent, this is a fact. The fact that most of the people on this planet are sudra (or lower) is the reason why temples are built, because most persons do not understand their true spiritual natures. Srila Prabhupada built over one hundred temples and in one of the most prominent temples, that was where he was poisoned. The vast majority of these temples there is no Guru Tattva or Srila Prabhupada’s original books only Dharmadvarji, rascals and fools. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada also established 94 Maths and these are also run by sudras and monkeys also as they do not follow Guru Tattva.
Only a fool would want to live in a temple where Guru Tattva is non-existent. Why place your spiritual life in the hands of the money screwers and slavery makers. When Christ went to the temple they inhabitants were only using for money making and selling animals for slaughter so he hit them and kicked them out this is why they wanted to kill him. When Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (The Lord Himself) entered Jagannatha temple he was absorbed in love of God and lost external consciousness. The priests wanted to beat him with sticks because they were fools and rascals also.
The ‘devotee community’ are very proud of their Brahmin threads and saligram silas but because they don’t follow Srila Prabhupada and instead follow dogs, hypocrites and scum, they have zero realization.
Kali is not the age for temple worship. Most of the real devotees are nowhere near a temple!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Bh. Mark ;
Please read my reply appended below your message in CAP ;
In that context Amar, you are the one who made the leap to assume I was referring to some devotee “to unite us all”. That was YOUR definition of Ksatriya. If you read MY words, I was simply referring to Srila Prabhupada’s order for any group of devotees to divide by varna.
THE DEVOTEE, THE PERSON WHO IS ENGAGED SELFLESSLY RENDERING SERVICE FREE FROM ALL DESIRES IN THE MISSION OF HDG. SRILA PRABHUPADA IS ABLE TO UNITE US ALL IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH SRILA PRABHUPADA’S ORDER BECAUSE THAT PERSON WOULD GAIN THE LOST ” LOVE & TRUST ” AMONGST EACH INDIVIDUALS AND GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS OF PRABHUPADA’S ANUGA..
IS THAT NOT A FACT ?
Any group of devotees already has a de-facto leader. Is that person selfless and free of desire? Is that person expected to unify every devotee on earth? Not by me.
WHO IS THAT THE DE-FACTO LEADER RENDERING SELFLESSLY SERVICE FREE OF DESIRE ? THAT PERSON LIKE OUR SRILA PRABHUPADA WOULD GAIN THE ” LOVE AND TRUST ” AMONGST US AND SHALL LEAD AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA IN ORDER TO UNIFY EVERY DEVOTEE ON EARTH. CERTAINLY NOT BY YOU, OR ANY BODY ELSE WHO KEEPS ONES’ AGENDA FOR LABHA, PUJA AND PRATHISTHA AND DEFY SRILA PRABHUPADA’S INSTRUCTIONS.
You just accused me of fabricating something you did not say. But it appears that you ignored what I was saying and set your own standard for the discussion. I assumed that you were responding to me, and that your idea of a Ksatriya was as you stated. But you were imagining a different conversation about someone to unify everyone.
I AM NOT IMAGINING OR ASSUMING A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION ABOUT SOMEONE THAT PERSON WHO IS ABLE TO UNIFY EVERYONE. I AM SIMPLY PRESENTING THE FACTS BASED ON SRILA PRABHUPADA’S MANIFESTED LILA TO WHICH YOU ARE UNNECESSARILY AND BASELESSLY REBUTTALING IT SIMPLY OUT OF YOUR FRUSTRATION.
And you continue to press me to give you an answer to this hypothetical question that you concocted, regarding something not even mentioned by Prabhupada, and not in the context of the points I was raising, and accuse me of what you actually are doing.
THIS HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION IS BASED UPON THE FACTS IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH THE RIGHT CONTEXT IN UNDERSTANDING WHO IS THE QUALIFIED KSATHRIYA TO WHICH YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING TO ANSWER IT. THAT IS ONE OF THE PROBLEM WITH YOU, BH. MARK
It doesn’t bother me, everyone makes mistakes, but it will bother me if you ignore this fact and continue on in this way.
OF COURSE IT WILL CONTINUE TO BOTHER YOU BECAUSE YOU WANT TO IMPOSE YOUR WAY OF KAMSA KSATRIYA TYPE BY IGNORING THE FACTS PRESENTED TO YOU.
SO IT IS YOUR CHOICE, BH. MARK.
B.Mark:The problem is so called brahmanas who are nothing but vaisyas and sudras who steal the service of Ksatriyas and live like Kings, using the karmi force of law/arms to keep Vaisnava devotee ksatriyas at bay.
Mahesh: IF one is a Ksatriya he MUST fight. That is the QUALIFICATION of Ksatriya:
Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 2: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 2.1-11 — Johannesburg, October 17, 1975 : 751017BG.JOH :
So here Kṛṣṇa is addressing Arjuna, anārya: “Non-Aryan. You are kṣatriya. Your service is now required to fight with persons who have created injustice. So what is this, that you are denying to fight?” Anārya juṣṭam. And asvargyam. Asvargyam means “By denying your duty you cannot be elevated in your next life or you cannot be elevated in the higher planetary system.” For a kṣatriya, it is the duty of the kṣatriya to fight and lay down his life. Then he is promoted to the higher planetary system. That is the shastric injunction. If he becomes victorious, then he enjoys this material world, and if he dies, he is promoted to heaven. These things are there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is advising Arjuna, asvargyam: “If you deny to fight, then you will be refused to enter in the higher planetary system.” Akīrti-karam. “And you are known as a great fighter, great soldier and My friend, and this will be going against your reputation. Don’t do this.”
Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 2: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 2.33-35 — London, September 3, 1973 : 730903BG.LON :
This spirit of kṣatriya was prevalent even, say, three hundred years ago in India. There was a king, Yasomanta Sena. He was the commander-in-chief of Emperor Aurangzeb. So in one fight, he was defeated and came back to his home. So his wife heard that “My husband has been defeated. He’s coming back home.” So she asked the caretaker to close the door of the palace. So when Yasomanta Sena came there, he saw that his palace door is closed. Then he sent message to the queen that “Why you have closed the door? I have come home.” So messenger came and informed that “The king has come. So he is asking to open the door.” The queen replied, “Who is king? Yasomanta Sena. No, no. Yasomanta Sena cannot come being defeated. Yasomanta Sena either he conquers the battle or he lays down his body there dead. So the man who has come, he must be somebody pretender. He is not King Yasomanta Sena.” So she refused to open the door. This is the spirit of kṣatriya spirit.
OK, I think I have it straight now. No temples, just museums and disneyland. DVD is already there, but we can’t see it, so we have to carry on without it and it will come automatically even though Prabhupada disagreed and said it must be INTRODUCED. Talk about a head spinner, we should make sure to include the DVD Merry go round at the new theme park.
No Ksatriyas unless they are selfless, without material desire, and capable of uniting everyone on par with Vasudeva, unless you are talking to Mahesh in which case they just need to be willing to fight to the death managing the crowds thronging to get a ride on the Rama roller coaster.
Sorry but I found no real give and take in this discussion and that brings out my inner child who is very sarcastic when disappointed like this. Perhaps we can try again next year? I guess I should agree that chanting the Maha Mantra is our only hope, even though chanting without following the program of the Acarya is a slippery slope. Maha Mantra water slide anyone?
Hare Krsna!
LOL Hare Krsna Bk Mark, this thread ceased to be a discussion long time ago. All the evidence was rejected, DVD is automatic( I wonder what guru they follow that says like that?) new standards for ksatriya too(I guess Krsna’s were not up to par) Mahesh is still trying to get me killed fighting the government, wants me to storm the temple with a force of arms, if I do not then I’m no ksatriya? and Oh as you mention that ksatriyas have to be pure with no conditioning and motivation. Would that be like BG. 18.44 and one half?? Krsna again has made a mistake and forgot what Amara demands of others?.
Yet any monkey with a thread around his neck is a brahmana? this is guru tattva??
I would say a new low has been reached but actually nothing new from the sinister side is apparent, same old arguments and made up standards as when Srila Prabhupada attempted DVD. same old sinister reaction
school is out for these boys
PLEASE READ MY ANSWER IN CAP. LETTER in REPLY TO RCB misleading full of frustration comments when he says ;
RCB. writes ; ” Kamsa or Vasudeva? I think devotees have seen Kamsa as their leaders in all these yrs. They do not deserve Vasudeva or Ramaraja. …………. ”
MY answer ; AS IT APPEARS RCB KNOWS VERY WELL THAT VASUDEVA WHO IS ABLE TO UNITE US ALL AND YET HE REFRAINS TO REVEAL HIM FURTHER. WHY ? ONLY RCB CAN ANSWER IT.
And RCB continues to write further ; ( ” same as I said 10 yrs ago to you, is here today. As it has been from 74′, sinister is as sinister does!
IT APPEARS FROM RCB STATEMENT THAT HE HAS DONE NOTHING AS A KSATRIYA AS HE IMPOSE DVD IN HIS WRITING WHICH SHOWS HOW HYPOCRITE RCB IS HIMSELF. ISN’T IT ?
Besides we know Vasudeva would never preside over such a population/congregation that rejects DVD. first they must follow Vedic culture, then he would agree to be responsible. Same as Prabhupada writes in his books. First deserve, then desire.
IN HIS STATEMENT ABAOVE RCB CONFIRMS THAT HE KNOWS VASUDEVA WOULD NEVER PRESIDE OVER SUCH CONGREGATION THAT REJECTS DVD ? IS RCB ON VASUDEVA SIDE OR THE SIDE OF SINISTER WHO HAS DONE NOTHING TO ESTABLISH DVD THUS FAR SINCE 1974 ? IS THAT THE REASON RCB IS NOT REVEALING ANYTHING ABOUT WHO VASUDEVA IS ?
No Vasudeva would not be caught dead in a sinister cult devoid of DVD
IT LOOKS LIKE RCB HAD BEEN CAUGHT BEING A SINISTER HIMSELF WHO DOES NOT PRACTISE WHAT HE WANTS TO PREACH.
IS IT NOT RCB ?
RCB HAS LOTS TO ANSWER AND I HOPE HE DOES ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS AS IT IS ASKED FOR.
HARI BOL.
BH. MARK, you need to answer the questions I put forth to you.
For the last 10 years, your Ksatriya leader RCB has been asking your cooperation to practise Ksatriya varna with him but thus far you are simply cooperating in implementing what you are not practising like your friend RCB.
WHY are you not following what you and your friend want to implement ?
Don’t be HYPOCRITE Bh. Mark like your friend RCB.
Both of you, need to answer lots of questions as it has been put forth to you here in this forum.
if you are not able to answer, then, please stop writing further non-sense comments.
Hope it meets the reader satisfactory.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti: Mahesh is still trying to get me killed fighting the government, wants me to storm the temple with a force of arms, if I do not then I’m no ksatriya?
Mahesh: Bogus! I NEVER NEVER NEVER said you fight the government. THAT is YOUR OWN interpretation. The Courts are there ALSO for fighting your case against injustice. Besides, we are simply DISCUSSING what the SCRIPTURES (sastra) STATE what a Ksatriya IS. What YOU do is YOUR OWN BUSINESS. Do not involve me for YOUR plans. We can NOT change Sastra for suiting ones personal convenience if one is UNABLE to follow the STANDARDS. Rather, it is BEST to accept the TRUTH that he is NOT on that platform – YET and GRADUALLY make progress. What is wrong in GRADUAL progress?
75-09-04. Letter: Paramahamsa:
Regarding Manasvi, you should immediately prosecute. THE CHARGE SHOULD BE BREACH OF TRUST AND MISAPPROPRIATION OF FUNDS. I have received today the Oath of Allegiance duly signed by him and notarized. When required it will be supplied to you. Therefore I wanted this declaration. IMMEDIATELY PROSECUTE.
SB 7.11 Summary The Perfect Society: Four Social Classes
One who is in a lower grade of social life cannot accept the profession of a higher class unless necessary. IN TIMES OF EMERGENCY, ALL THE CLASSES BUT THE KSATRIYAS MAY ACCEPT PROFESSIONAL DUTIES OF OTHERS. THE MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD KNOWN AS RTA (SILONCHANA), AMRTA (AYACITA), MRTA (YACNA), PRAMRTA (KARSANA), AND SATYANRTA (VANIJYA) MAY BE ACCEPTED BY EVERYONE BUT THE KSATRIYAS. FOR A BRAHMANA OR A KSATRIYA, ENGAGING IN THE SERVICE OF THE VAISYAS OR SUDRAS IS CONSIDERED THE PROFESSION OF DOGS.
NARADA MUNI ALSO DESCRIBED THAT THE SYMPTOM OF A BRAHMANA IS CONTROLLED SENSES, THE SYMPTOMS OF A KSATRIYA ARE POWER AND FAME, the symptom of a vaisya is service to the brahmanas and ksatriyas, and the symptom of a sudra is service to the three higher classes. The qualification for a woman is to be a very faithful and chaste wife. In this way, Narada Muni described the characteristics of higher and lower grades of people and recommended that one follow the principles of his caste or his hereditary occupation. One CANNOT SUDDENLY give up a profession to which he is accustomed, and therefore it is recommended that one GRADUALLY be awakened. The symptoms of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras are very important, and therefore one should be designated only by these symptoms, and not by birth. Designation by birth is strictly forbidden by Narada Muni and all great personalities.
Bg 18.43 T Conclusion–The Perfection of Renunciation
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
SYNONYMS
sauryam–heroism; tejah–power; dhrtih–determination; daksyam–resourcefulness; yuddhe–in battle; ca–and; api–also; apalayanam–not fleeing; danam–generosity; isvara–leadership; bhavah–nature; ca–and; ksatram–ksatriya; karma–duty; svabhava-jam–born of his own nature.
TRANSLATION
Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas.
721211BG.AHM Lectures
So these things are topsy-turvied. Simply it has become a farce. Actually if we want to establish Vedic civilization, then we must follow strictly the principles of Vedas as it is described in the Bhagavad-gita. And if it is practiced, then daiva-varnasrama-dharma. That is required. Daiva-varnasrama-dharma. There must be the four divisions. Just like we have got four divisions in our body: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg division is the sudra, the belly division is the vaisya, and the arm division is the ksatriya, and the head division is the brahmana. SO THESE DIVISIONS ARE NOW LOST. ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO KSATRIYA, NO BRAHMANA. MAYBE THERE ARE SOME VAISYAS AND SUDRAS. So suppose if your whole body there is only belly and leg, then what is the body? If you have no head and no arm, then how it is? What kind of body it is? SO THEREFORE, IN THE SOCIAL ORDER OF THE PRESENT DAY, THERE IS NO BRAHMANA, NO KSATRIYA. ONLY THERE ARE SOME FEW VAISYAS AND SUDRAS. SO THEREFORE THERE IS CHAOS ALL OVER THE WORLD. So this Krsna consciousness movement is meant for creating some real brahmana. At least, there may be head. They are all mad after the influence of the material energy. So there is need of some brahmana who can give advice to the people how to live, how to become God conscious, how to become happy. There is great need of this movement. Simply so-called classless society will not help us. That is not Vedic civilization.
B.Mark: I guess I should agree that chanting the Maha Mantra is our only hope
Mahesh: Correct! Chanting Hare Krsna Maha Mantra is OUR ONLY HOPE. When the heart is cleansed THEN we can FOLLOW the instructions. Justification is NOT an answer to replace the TRUTH on what platform we **ALL** are ON. Why JUSTIFY if you can NOT follow? Either we are ON the platform OR we are NOT. Srila Prabhupada advises, “One CANNOT SUDDENLY give up a profession to which he is accustomed, and therefore it is recommended that one GRADUALLY be awakened.”
If one can NOT do something THEN atleast BE HONEST and say, ” I can not do it AT PRESENT”. Do NOT Justify.
What is the problem in ACCEPTING THE TRUTH?
Note: Srila Prabhupada makes a point of SATO VRTTEH of being HONEST in our profession. There is no question of JUSTIFYING if one is NOT on the level of Ksatriya the next point is Dhairyat PATIENCE if one is NOT on the level he simply has to PERSEVERE to come to the platform with PATIENCE. What is the difficulty in being HONEST? Just accept Srila Prabhupada’s advice “SO IF THERE ARE SO MANY IMPEDIMENTS, I AM NOT IMMEDIATELY SUCCESSFUL, OH, THAT DOES NOT MATTER. I MUST BE PATIENT.”
660808BG.NY Lectures
So these are six “against” rules. Similarly, there are six favorable rules. What are they?
utsahan niscayad dhairyat
tat-tat-karma-pravartanat
sanga-tyagat sato vrtteh
sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati
Prasidhyati means it flourishes. The cause is advanced. How? Utsahat. We should be very much enthusiastic: “Oh, Krsna consciousness is so nice. We have heard about Krsna consciousness so nice things. It is so beneficial for successful human mission, so I must have it. I must execute this Krsna consciousness.” This is called utsahat, to become energetic, not lethargic but energetic. So utsahad dhairyat. Dhairyat means with patience. Suppose I have begun immediately. SO IF THERE ARE SO MANY IMPEDIMENTS, I AM NOT IMMEDIATELY SUCCESSFUL, OH, THAT DOES NOT MATTER. I MUST BE PATIENT.
Utsahad dhairyan niscayat. Niscayat means with confidence. Confidence. Because Krsna says this is this, so I must have confidence. “So Krsna says like this, so it is sure it is successful.” I must have that confidence. Utsahad dhairyan niscayat, and tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. And you have to do, you have to act accordingly, as Krsna says. If you do not act, then… So tat-tat-karma-pravartanat sato vrtteh, AND YOUR PROFESSION SHOULD BE VERY HONEST. SATO VRTTEH.
660808BG.NY Lectures
And sadhu-sange, and you should associate.
If you want to advance in devotional service, then you should be enthusiastic, utsahan, dhairyat, with patience, and niscayat, you should be assured that “Because I’m following strictly the direction of my spiritual master and sastras, certainly I shall meet Krsna.” Tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. By following the rules and regulations, SATO VRTTEH, ALWAYS TRYING TO BE HONEST and sadhu-sanga… The sadhu-sanga is very important.
740408BG.BOM Lectures
So kama-sankalpa-vivarjitah. Yasya sarve samarambhah. You can act. We must always remember, this acting has begun… Catur-varnyam maya srstam GUNA-KARMA-VIBHAGASAH. First of all, THE ACTING SHOULD BEGIN ACCORDING TO GUNA AND KARMA. Not that everything will be done by everyone. No.
Suppose if I want to do some engineering work. That is not possible for me. I must take help of an engineer. But if one wants to understand something about Bhagavad-gita, about the spiritual movement, he may consult me. Therefore, the society must be divided into four divisions. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. There must be a class of men very intelligent, brahminical class. They should also work just like brahmana. THE KSATRIYA, THEY SHOULD WORK JUST LIKE KSATRIYA. Because there will be some violence. Ksat. So one who defends or protects from injury, that person also should be there in the society, ksatriya. So on this basis the society must be divided.
But at the present moment, because everything is lost, now simply sudras are there, therefore the COMMON MEDICINE is prescribed:
harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha
740101SB.LA Lectures
So the king, his duty was that if you are professing yourself as a brahmana, then it is the king’s duty to see that you are acting as a brahmana. Brahmana is not by birth but guna-karma-vibhagasah. GUNA MEANS QUALITY. AND KARMA, AND WORK ALSO. SIMPLY “I HAVE GOT NOW SACRED THREAD, I HAVE BECOME BRAHMANA, DOUBLY INITIATED; NOW MY BUSINESS IS FINISHED. I CAN WORK, I CAN DO WHATEVER WE LIKE, LIKE LESS THAN SUDRA, CANDALA.” NO, SIR. IF YOU ARE INITIATED AS A BRAHMANA, YOU MUST ACT AS A BRAHMANA. TRUTHFULNESS–SATYAM SAMO DAMAS TITIKSA ARJAVAM JNANAM VIJNANAM ASTIKYAM BRAHMA-KARMA–EVERYTHING IS THERE. A BRAHMANA MUST BE TRUTHFUL. THAT IS THE FIRST BUSINESS OF A BRAHMANA–TRUTHFUL. HE’LL SPEAK TRUTH EVEN BEFORE AN ENEMY. Nobody speaks truth before an enemy because he wants to hide something. But brahmana’s business is to become truthful even before an enemy. That is stated.
There are many instances. Just like Satyakama-jabala, a boy, Satyakama, he went to Gautama Muni: “Sir, I want to become your disciple.” “Oh, very good. Are you brahmana or brahmana’s son?” Formerly, in Vedic ways, nobody could be accepted as a disciple unless he’s born in high class family, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya–especially brahmana. So this question was asked, “Which family you belong to?” So he said, “I do not know what is my classification.” “Now, who is your father?” “That I do not know.” “Ask your mother.” Then he went to his mother, “Who is my father?” “My dear boy, I do not know.” So actually his mother was maidservant. So maidservants have so many men, and by whom she was pregnant she cannot remember. She also told the truth. And this Satyakama, he also came to Gautama Muni, he said, “Sir, my father, my mother also do not know who is my father.” “Oh, that’s all right. You are a brahmana, because you are truthful. You do not hide yourself, that ‘I am a prostitute’s son.’ You say this is the position. ‘I am plainly speaking that my mother does not know who is my father. I do not know!’ ” So because he was truthful… That is the symptom of brahmana. He accepted, “Yes, I’ll accept you as my disciple.”
Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guna-karma-vibhagasah. He cannot be called a brahmana unless he acts according to his guna.
Prabhupada: I’m speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. This catur-varna. It is the king’s duty, government’s duty, to see that a person claiming to be brahmana, whether he’s acting as a brahmana. Nowadays that… Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as sudra, but he’s claiming to be brahmana.
730724rc.lon Conversations
Prabhupada: So it is the king’s duty. Just like the king, it is the government’s duty to see that nobody cheats. IF A PERSON WITHOUT ANY MEDICAL QUALIFICATION, IF HE WRITES “DOCTOR, MEDICAL PRACTITIONER,” HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED. SIMILARLY, IF ONE IS CLAIMING TO BE BRAHMANA, HE MUST ACT AS BRAHMANA. IF ONE IS CLAIMING TO BE KSATRIYA, HE MUST ACT AS A KSATRIYA. NOW, WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS OF BRAHMANA, WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS OF KSATRIYA, THEY ARE THERE ALREADY IN BHAGAVAD-GITA.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti: Mahesh is still trying to get me killed fighting the government, wants me to storm the temple with a force of arms, if I do not then I’m no ksatriya?
Mahesh: Still thinking about this above sentence. It just does not make ANY sense–AT ALL! Let us be PRACTICAL not fanatical. Say RCB went to temples starts shooting and Government shot him. So— WHAT is the GAIN? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Have I asked him to go to Temples and shoot – NO! RCB needs to UNDERSTAND that Ksatriya is by definition RESOURCEFUL. Means you have to THINK before you LEAP. There are OTHER WAYS to fight if ONE IS DETERMINED. The FIRST thing is Srila Prabhupada’s books are being MANIPULATED and CHANGED by Jayadvaita, Dravida and company NOT the temples. WHY he is pushing for Temples, anyhow? Who has asked him to go to temples on a rampage just to prove he is Ksatriya?
In terms of Court Case:
In legal cases against BBTI Nimai Pandit has EXTREMELY HIGH chance to WIN. WHY? because it is a CLEAR CASE OF FRAUD. HOW CAN YOU CHANGE SRILA PRABHUPADA’S BOOKS? WHERE ARE THE ACCOUNTS FOR THE BBT IN *ALL* THE YEARS WITH REGARDS TO BBT FUNCTIONING AS A TRUST **AS PER TRUST LAWS?** There are MANY other POINTS that CAN be raised WITH EVIDENCE.
But he has problem in COOPERATION WITH Madhu Pandit THIS IS WHY HE IS AN UTTER FAILURE. You need MONEY, COOPERATION and ORGANISATION. They ***CAN DO IT*** TOGETHER IF THEY COOPERATE. But will they give-up the differences to COOPERATE -FOR- SRILA PRABHUPADA:
72-11-18. Letter: Madhumangala
Regarding general state of affairs at Amsterdam temple, I can understand there is some disturbance among you, but that is not to be taken very seriously. Real business is preaching work, and if there is full attention on this matter only, all other businesses will be automatically successful. Fighting amongst ourselves is not at all good, but if our preaching work is neglected, or if we fall down in following the regulative principles such as rising before four, chanting 16 rounds, like that, if these things are not strictly observed then maya will enter and spoil everything. So my best advice to you is to strictly observe these things yourself and be the example so that all others may follow. We should not criticize each other, as Vaisnavas, because there is fault in everyone and we may be ourselves subject to criticism. BEST THING IS TO BE ABOVE SUSPICION OURSELVES, THEN IF WE SEE DISCREPANCIES AND MAKE SUGGESTION THE OTHERS WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPECT AND TAKE ACTION TO RECTIFY THE MATTERS. THAT IS COOPERATION. AND WE MUST EXIST ON SUCH COOPERATION, OTHERWISE THE WHOLE THING IS DOOMED IF WE SIMPLY GO ON FIGHTING OVER SOME SMALL THING. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much.
Best chant Hare Krsna!
(SPL 69.10.08) Srila Prabhupada:
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Amar. Presumption and the desire to control others do not suit you or any devotee.
I don’t “need” to answer any of your questions.
Your presumptions about what RCB has “asked” of me are just that, and entirely incorrect as well.
Please save your speculations, sophistry, manipulations. I am full immune.
Mahesh has a point about the fact that in some cases Karmi court action is warranted, if it can be afforded and if you live somewhere the courts are not corrupt, and lots of ifs, which was why Prabhupada wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves as self sufficiently as possible which is why He said VD MUST BE INTRODUCED WITHIN OUR SOCIETY.
And as far as “just chanting”, chanting that is not accompanied by following strict rules and regulations as ordered by the Acarya results is offensive and grows weeds that strangle the bhakti creeper. Each individual was ordered to regulate himself according to varna and asrama in order to clear the weeds in his heart and to prevent new ones from growing as those seeds are showered with water by chanting the Maha Mantra. Thus if you KNOW through having been TOLD what to do, and refuse to do it on some excuse or other, no progress will be made and the weeds will grow so thick that it can be akin to appearing like a great big demon because none of us know the extent of seeds of sinful activities stored up in our karmic storehouse. Just look at the atrocities being committed by so many who chant 16 rounds a day.
Very risky.
Hare Krsna
Bh. Mark, FYI, I neither have any need nor any desire to control any devotee as you wrote.
However, when a devotee like yourself or RCB try to manipulate any situation in order to satisfy their personal agenda of some sort all in the name of serving Srila Prabhupada, I can not remain silent but to expose it out to avoid any misleading to the innocent people who wishes to follow Srila Prabhupada VANI.
That is expected of a sincere follower of Srila Prabhupada VANI.
Further Bh. Mark writes ; ” I don’t “need” to answer any of your questions.
My answers ; OK. Then why would you impose and implement DVD if you and your friend Ksatriya leader RCB do not practise yourself ? When I ask this question, you choose not to answer. Why, then,at the first place suggest such thing which you do not practise and you have no answer for it. ? You create the situation in misleading not only to yourself but to others also and the same time when you are questioned, then, you choose not to answer at your own whims.
What kind of a cheating is this, Bh. Mark ?
Bh. Mark says ; ” Your presumptions about what RCB has “asked” of me are just that, and entirely incorrect as well.”
My answer ; It is not my assumption or presumptions. It is all based on black and white what RCB is saying and you are saying. Are you denying to accept your own writing, Bh. Mark ?
Bh. Marks says ; ” Please save your speculations, sophistry, manipulations. I am full immune.
My answer ; Am I not exposing your very own manipulation, full of sophistry to which you have no answer when it is all exposed in this public forum, Bh. Mark ?????
Therefore, I humbly suggest you, Bh. Mark and your Ksatriya leader RCB that please refrain from writing any further non-sense comments on this discussion until or unless you have the answer to all these questions.
Hope it meets well to the Readers.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Bh. Mark writes ; ” Prabhupada wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves as self sufficiently as possible which is why He said VD MUST BE INTRODUCED WITHIN OUR SOCIETY. ”
Is Bh. Mark referring above ” WITHIN OUR SOCIETY ” i.e.
a / corrupted present Iskcon society or
b/ a society of the like minded people who are following Srila Prabhupada VANI selflessly ?
If he is referring to the corrupted present Iskcon society, then, he is in a wrong place wasting his time and energy. In the case of a second choice of (b) like minded people, then he is refusing to answer all the questions based on his writings, thus far.
Whom he is fooling ? Whom he is trying to CHEAT ? What is going on Bh. Mark ?
I read it that Bh. Mark chooses not to answer any of the questions and yet he wishes to write on DVD he is not following himself.
That is why I am suggesting him to refrain writing any further on this issue because Bh. Mark is not following DVD himself and yet he wants to impose and implement what he is not following.
What kind of a CHEATING is this, Bh. Mark ?
On June 28, 1971, San Francisco , HDG. Srila Prabhupada explains in the Lecture ;
“So there are two sections of people: those who are civilized, they are ruled by the sastra, by the law codes, and those who are law-breakers, they are ruled by the sastra, weapons. Both things are required, sastra and sastra. ”
So Kamsa type Ksatriya Leader is ruled by Sastra
whereas
Vasudeva type Ksatriya Leader is ruled by Sastra.
I wonder what type of Ksatriya Leader RCB and Bh. Mark would like to introduce in order to
establish DVD ?
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
B.Mark:Just look at the atrocities being committed by so many who chant 16 rounds a day.
Mahesh That “chanting” is FOR SHOW is done by MATERIALISTIC ANTI RITVIK CROOKS FOR SCREWING MONEY AND SLAVERY MAKING. So we are NOT talking of “16 rounds” by THOSE crooks “SUCH NEGLIGENT UTTERANCE FOR THE SENSE GRATIFICATION OF MATERIALISTIC PERSONS IS NOT A VIBRATION OF TRANSCENDENTAL SOUND”
Antya 3.59 The Glories of Srila Haridasa Thakura
“The letters of the holy name have so much spiritual potency that they act even when uttered improperly.
PURPORT
SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA STATES THAT THE WORD VYAVAHITA (“IMPROPERLY UTTERED”) IS NOT USED HERE TO REFER TO THE MUNDANE VIBRATION OF THE LETTERS OF THE ALPHABET. SUCH NEGLIGENT UTTERANCE FOR THE SENSE GRATIFICATION OF MATERIALISTIC PERSONS IS NOT A VIBRATION OF TRANSCENDENTAL SOUND. Utterance of the holy name while one engages in sense gratification is an impediment on the path toward achieving ecstatic love for Krsna. On the other hand, if one who is eager for devotional service utters the holy name even partially or improperly, the holy name, who is identical with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, exhibits its spiritual potency because of that person’s offenseless utterance. Thus one is relieved from all unwanted practices, and one gradually awakens his dormant love for Krsna.
Note: Our chanting is different. We KNOW Daiva Varnasrama IS required. BUT if one Chants his heart is CLEANSED and he can appreciate what category he is under and he HAS to ACT in that capacity because it is not simply GUNA but KARMA also this is WHY it is said guna-karma-vibhagasah. Doctor may be called Doctor when HE ACTS as a Doctor not simply holding a certificate at home. You can not say I am a Ksatriya if you do NOT ACT. This is my point. It is about WORKING in THAT CAPACITY. HE MUST BE DOING SOMETHING -KARMA. NOT SITTING IDLE. IT IS AN OCCUPATION guna-karma-vibhagasah.
The PRACTICAL reality is EVEN a SUDRA has to make PROGRESS TO COME TO THE STAGE OF BRAHMANA. Those who are taking BIG SALARIES in ISKCON DISOBEYING SRILA PRABHUPADA ARE SUDRAS AND THEIR DESTINY IS HERE:
SB 5.26.23 A Description of the Hellish Planets
The shameless husbands of lowborn sudra women live exactly like animals, and therefore they have no good behavior, cleanliness or regulated life. After death, such persons are thrown into the hell called Puyoda, where they are put into an ocean filled with pus, stool, urine, mucus, saliva and similar things. SUDRAS WHO COULD NOT IMPROVE THEMSELVES FALL INTO THAT OCEAN AND ARE FORCED TO EAT THOSE DISGUSTING THINGS.
PURPORT
Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has sung,
karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, kevala visera banda,
amrta baliya yeba khaya
nana yoni sada phire, kadarya bhaksana kare,
tara janma adah-pate yaya
He says that persons following the paths of karma-kanda and jnana-kanda (fruitive activities and speculative thinking) are missing the opportunities for human birth and gliding down into the cycle of birth and death. Thus there is always the chance that he may be put into the Puyoda Naraka, the hell named Puyoda, where one is forced to eat stool, urine, pus, mucus, saliva and other abominable things. It is significant that this verse is spoken especially about sudras. If one is born a sudra, he must continually return to the ocean of Puyoda to eat horrible things. Thus even a born sudra is expected to become a brahmana; that is the meaning of human life. Everyone should improve himself. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, four divisions of human society were created by Me.” EVEN IF ONE IS BY QUALIFICATION A SUDRA, HE MUST TRY TO IMPROVE HIS POSITION AND BECOME A BRAHMANA. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO CHECK A PERSON, NO MATTER WHAT HIS PRESENT POSITION IS, FROM COMING TO THE PLATFORM OF A BRAHMANA OR A VAISNAVA. Actually, one must come to the platform of a Vaisnava. Then he automatically becomes a brahmana. This can be done only if the Krsna consciousness movement is spread, for we are trying to elevate everyone to the platform of Vaisnava. As Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (18.66), sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: “Abandon all other duties and simply surrender unto Me.” One must give up the occupational duties of a sudra, ksatriya or vaisya and adopt the occupational duties of a Vaisnava, which include the activities of a brahmana. Krsna explains this in Bhagavad-gita (9.32):
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te ‘pi yanti param gatim
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination.” Human life is specifically meant for going back home, back to Godhead. THAT FACILITY SHOULD BE GIVEN TO EVERYONE, WHETHER ONE BE A SUDRA, A VAISYA, A WOMAN OR A KSATRIYA. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT. HOWEVER, IF ONE IS SATISFIED TO REMAIN A SUDRA, HE MUST SUFFER AS DESCRIBED IN THIS VERSE: TAD EVATIBIBHATSITAM ASNANTI.
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
Dear Readers,
The following is re-posted from this link ;
http://prabhupadavision.com/2013/06/rtvik-representative/#comments
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Bhakta Mark says:
February 9, 2012 at 10:17 am
This exposition from Giri-nayaka das is very vague and convoluted, but all one has to do is read the last paragraph to understand his true position.
“Following Srila Prabhupada doesn’t mean to submit oneself to this or that system. It means to take up devotional service, all nine processes of it, or eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, or at least one of nine processes, and serve untill attaining perfection. ”
Srila Prabhupada told us we needed to follow various systematic processes in a communal context in order to keep ourselves in a “natural condition of life” while engaging in 9 more direct processes starting with hearing and chanting. Pancaratriki path and Bhagavata path respectively. They were meant to occur simultaneously, and both were absolutely part of our sadhana.
The pancaratrik based rules and regulations within Daivi varnasrama were to help us GRADUALLY give up our material attachments and earthly duties, assisting the holy names to purify us so we could hear them more purely and without offense as time went on.
He was explicit that his orders on how to live daily lives were to be followed. The current systems we used to live were to be abandoned in place of the ones he gave.
I reject the idea that since systems can be abused, that they must be given up. I reject the idea that if one does not understand how a system works, that no one else can possibly understand it.
It is a most illogical argument to say that following Srila Prabhupada does not mean submitting to the systems he ordered, and “just practice Bhagavat viddhi”.
He looked us over and stated that none of us could chant like Haridas Thakur, and needed to systematize our activities according to DVD.
Those who reject that are not following him. They more than anyone need to give the system a try to check their speculative nature.
Systems will do wonders for those sincerely looking to eventually leave their material motivations behind, but will do nothing for those who only look to advance their fame and distinction.
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Giri-nayaka das says:
February 9, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Mark, you speak a lot, thats ok, but should hear too. Hearing comes first.
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So you can execute the nine different processes if possible. If not, you execute eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two — at least one. Then you will be perfect. So this one, simply chanting and hearing… If you chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, you will hear also. This process of yoga is recommended in this age.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.1 — Durban, October 9, 1975
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There are nine different processes of bhakti-yoga. Any one of them you adopt, you become perfect, not that you have to adopt nine. If you can, it is very nice. So nine, eight, seven, six, five — if you adopt only one, you become… You don’t anything. Simply hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a realized soul, you will become perfect.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.4 — Japan, April 22, 1972
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And arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam — that is pancaratrika, arcanam. So out of the nine-nine, eight, seven, six, five — whatever you do, that is sufficient because absolute. Any item, even one item, you can, if you perform perfectly, that is sufficient. But there are nine alternative items. Just like Haridasa Thakura, he simply chanted, sravanam kirtanam. He did not establish any Deity, but he got perfection. There were many others. Just like Pariksit Maharaja. At the last stage of his life he simply concentrated in hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sravanam. So if sravana is perfect, that is sufficient. Any one of the nine items, if it is done perfectly, that is sufficient.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.2.24-25 — Gorakhpur, February 13, 1971
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These are the nine different processes. So you can execute all the nine processes or eight, seven, six, five, four. But at least, take to one. You will be perfect. If you simply come here in this temple, without doing anything, simply hear about Krsna, your life will be perfect.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Initiations — San Diego, June 30, 1972
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Bh. Mark, I wonder, why have you not learned any thing after so many years of your struggle in wasting your time and energy in useless debate every where you visit Prabhupadanuga site ?
What is your personal motive behind all this, after all ?
Therefore, I beg from you to please PREACH simply what you are practising and then advocate namely the basic 4 principles and 16 round of the Mahamantra to the people around you. That is the service you should be contributing for the mission of HDG. Srila Prabhupada in order not only to make your life sublime but others also. That is win win situation. Isn’t it ?
So, please stop wasting your time writing non-sense comments.
Hope you understand and take this my humble suggestion seriously, Bh. Mark.
Hope it meets you well.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
I hope this may be helpful more to Bh. Mark and his Ksatriya Leader RCB to understand Srila Prabhupada’s Varna-Ashram system ;
” Regarding the farm, farm opening is not very essential, but if you can do it conveniently, then do it. The varnasrama system is for convenience sake in the material world. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. Acceptance of varnasrama means a little easy progress to spiritual life, otherwise it has no importance to us. For example, all my European and American disciples have no varnasrama position, but spiritually because they have followed the rules and regulations and also my instructions, their advancement spiritually is being appreciated by everyone. Always remember that varnasrama life is a good program for material life, and it helps one in spiritual life; but spiritual life is not dependent upon it. After all the system of varnasrama has to be realized before accepting spiritual life; and the renounced order of sannyasa is the last stage of varnasrama.”
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta: – Mayapur 19 October, 1974
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Thank you all very much for reading all this. It is too late to sit on the PC.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Readers,
In my post, the following reads the same due to incorrect spelling which says ;
So Kamsa type Ksatriya Leader is ruled by Sastra
whereas
Vasudeva type Ksatriya Leader is ruled by Sastra.
The correct spelling and its usage are ;
one is SASTAR ruled by Kamsa type Ksatriya Leader and
the other one is SASTRA ruled by Vasudeva type Ksatriya. Vasudevatype Ksatriya is also an expert in using SASTAR
whereas
Kamsa type Ksatriya is only expert in using SASTAR without any care and consideration of SASTRA.
That is the difference.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Dear B.Mark,
“These five tattvas incarnate with Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and thus the Lord executes His saṅkīrtana movement with great pleasure.”
“In the Age of Kali, people who are endowed with sufficient intelligence will worship the Lord, who is accompanied by His associates, by performance of saṅkīrtana-yajña.” (Bhāg. 11.5.32) Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is always accompanied by His plenary expansion Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu, His incarnation Śrī Advaita Prabhu, His internal potency Śrī Gadādhara Prabhu and His marginal potency Śrīvāsa Prabhu. He is in the midst of them as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One should know that Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is always accompanied by these other tattvas. Therefore our obeisances to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu are complete when we say śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu -ityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. As preachers of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we first offer our obeisances to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu by chanting this Pañca-tattva mantra; then we say Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. There are ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but these are not considered in the chanting of the Pañca-tattva mantra, namely, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is known as mahā-vadānyāvatāra, the most magnanimous incarnation, for He does not consider the offenses of the fallen souls. Thus to derive the full benefit of the chanting of the mahā-mantra (Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare), we must first take shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, learn the Pañca-tattva mahā-mantra, and then chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. That will be very effective.”
(Cc.Adi 7.4.)
Here is what SBSST says about those who reject important spiritual instruction: “If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of noviate we are bound to remain where we are. ”
Source : http://krishna.org/initiation-into-spiritual-life/
my participation in this thread is NOT about me or my qualification. It is about DVD and the instruction to follow it. Be there or stay down, ‘noviate’
that devotees try to defeat the DVD instructions by putting me down shows me they are ‘noviate’ majorly unqualified for anything except peeling potatoes or sweeping streets so to speak.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti ; Do you ever read and understand what you are quoting in your comments below ;
” “If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of noviate we are bound to remain where we are. ”
Source : http://krishna.org/initiation-into-spiritual-life/
How does the above apply against Srila Prabhupada’s Quote as posted in my comments which I re-produce here below for your HEARING i.e. reading and understanding it better ;
” Regarding the farm, farm opening is not very essential, but if you can do it conveniently, then do it. The varnasrama system is for convenience sake in the material world. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. Acceptance of varnasrama means a little easy progress to spiritual life, otherwise it has no importance to us. For example, all my European and American disciples have no varnasrama position, but spiritually because they have followed the rules and regulations and also my instructions, their advancement spiritually is being appreciated by everyone. Always remember that varnasrama life is a good program for material life, and it helps one in spiritual life; but spiritual life is not dependent upon it. After all the system of varnasrama has to be realized before accepting spiritual life; and the renounced order of sannyasa is the last stage of varnasrama.”
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta: – Mayapur 19 October, 1974.
Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna – ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.
Make no mistake, Spiritual life is not dependent upon it as Srila Prabhupada clarify it.
That is why HDG. Srila Prabhupada instructs HIS followers to regulate such materialistic life by following the Four regulative Principles and minimum of 16 rounds.
Those who are sincere and serious in cultivating these principles selflessly are already following Spiritual life and as such, they do not need DVD at all.
That is the reason I ask you, RCB and Bh. Mark several times IF you are following DVD or not yourself in order to know where is your life standing either materialistic life or spiritual life but ………. ALAS ……… you never reveal anything about your life and keep on foolishly commenting unnecessarily baseless and useless comments thus far without any constructive conclusion what you have to offer.
Hope this ends the discussion.
Hari BOL. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT
Raja Caturbahu Das Bhakti
You are the one, I am afraid that is ‘rejecting’ important spiritual instruction believing that the mundane material framework of varnasrama is the prominent principal. It is obvious that your understanding is immature and retaliatory especially in relation to the childish gibes you offer those who have in good faith defeated your shallow, frustrated arguments.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Mahesh, generally no one is exempt from offensive chanting in the beginning. Therefore you contradict yourself when you point out that anti ritviks chanting is negligent, then go on to say “Note: Our chanting is different. We KNOW Daiva Varnasrama IS required. BUT if one Chants his heart is CLEANSED” This indicates that our hearts still need cleansing, but may be a little “cleaner” relatively speaking. But the main point is that ALL DISCIPLES, EVEN THOSE WHO MIGHT BE SADHANA SIDDHA, are to follow the 4 regulative principles strictly, if not to help the mantra to do its work of cleansing, then to show the example to others.
The 4 regs are “don’ts” and they are accomplished by following all of the “do’s” that Prabhupada instructed because it is our job to pull the weeds and assist the Holy Name. The rules and regs are different for each Varna. You need to read the LATEST INSTRUCTIONS, given to the leaders, regarding DVD, in order to understand that he gave different “do’s” for each varna, and that sudras no longer needed to become brahmanas in order to be Vaisnava and “become perfect in this lifetime”.
Read this very carefully it is from 1977, and is part of the final orders on how to manage the society.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he’ll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he’s not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, “Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra…”
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he’s a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he’s a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can… As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa…
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
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There are more detailed instructions regarding sudra rules for Iskcon in other conversations. Such as how they may take meat.
So how can any devotee follow the rules and regulations if he doesn’t know what they are? Just chant? Anyone who tells someone aspiring to direct discipleship to just chant and everything else will happen “automatically” is saying so because they are incapable of offering the detailed instructions of what to do and what not to do.
Amar, it is not wise to use a letter written to encourage an disciple who was finding great resistance to creating a farm, in order to diminish the broader directives to the whole society. Especially as that letter was written in 1974, 3 years before the full scope of DVD directives were gradually revealed to the leaders. Even more so because in Oct 1977 Srila Prabhupada had this exchange with that very same disciple.
Haṁsadūta: And we’re also considering that a farm is very important there, to have a farm. …Is there something special you want me to do there, Prabhupāda? Do you have some…
Prabhupāda: No. There is every chance of making it successful, and the… As Kīrtanānanda has developed New Vrindaban, similarly you can do.
Haṁsadūta: Something along that line?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: You mean like a community, spiritual community like Kīrtanānanda?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, that would be very good there because it’s also a very ideal climate. Everything grows there very easily because there’s plenty of rain, fertile soil, and there’s only one city—that’s Colombo. And it’s a very small city. People are all agriculturalists. The government is also giving land free to encourage agriculture. Simply that it has to be cleared. It’s jungle land; it has to be cleared. Shall we try for something like that?
Prabhupāda: What you can do it easily…
Haṁsadūta: Do.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
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You continue to condescend and say I should just preach that people follow the 4 regs, when you are showing that you don’t really understand all of the instructions that such following entails. Giri Nayaka followed the same template of hiding his ignorance of Srila Prabhupada’s elaborations on what the 4 rules and regs entail via DVD, in his quote that you dug up to present… “If you simply come here in this temple, without doing anything, simply hear about Krsna, your life will be perfect.”
Equating such an instruction with the instructions for disciples, is no less a poor tactic when you do it, than when he did it. If an aspiring disciple asks about DVD and you tell them to just Chant and Be Happy, or to just hear like Maharaj Pariksit, you do them a disservice, and should actually be referring them to a more competent mentor.
You continue to proclaim I am “uselessly debating” and “wasting my time”. But there is no debate here that I can see. I put forth facts, and you seek to negate them with the very generalizations those facts are meant to further explain and expand upon. So indeed I may appear to be wasting my time, but as you often indicate when you write the words (“dear readers”), I would only be wasting my time if I was here to convince YOU of that which you refuse to be convinced of. Yet countering your misconceptions is a service to all readers, and therefore I will not be persuaded by your subtle bully tactics such as telling me I MUST answer your diversionary loaded questions, your labeling me frustrated, my comments “nonsense”, your presumptions about my relationships, etc. I will cease to write here when guided from within.
Hare Krsna
Bh. Mark, your problem is simply that you do not hear i.e. you do not read and understand what you are quoting from Srila Prabhupada. For an example, read here carefully ;
( Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he’s a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he’s a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can… As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked. )
Now read also what your Ksatriya friend RCB quotes from Srila BSST as pointed out in my last comments in my response to RCB, where I also quoted further what Srila Prabhupada is saying.
It looks like you did not read my last comments. However, I am re-producing same for your kind perusal ;
Amar Puri says:
30. June 2014 at 5:37 pm
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti ; Do you ever read and understand what you are quoting in your comments below ;
” “If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of noviate we are bound to remain where we are. ”
Source : http://krishna.org/initiation-into-spiritual-life/
How does the above apply against Srila Prabhupada’s Quote as posted in my comments which I re-produce here below for your HEARING i.e. reading and understanding it better ;
” Regarding the farm, farm opening is not very essential, but if you can do it conveniently, then do it. The varnasrama system is for convenience sake in the material world. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. Acceptance of varnasrama means a little easy progress to spiritual life, otherwise it has no importance to us. For example, all my European and American disciples have no varnasrama position, but spiritually because they have followed the rules and regulations and also my instructions, their advancement spiritually is being appreciated by everyone. Always remember that varnasrama life is a good program for material life, and it helps one in spiritual life; but spiritual life is not dependent upon it. After all the system of varnasrama has to be realized before accepting spiritual life; and the renounced order of sannyasa is the last stage of varnasrama.”
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta: – Mayapur 19 October, 1974.
Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna — ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.
Make no mistake, Spiritual life is not dependent upon it as Srila Prabhupada clarify it.
That is why HDG. Srila Prabhupada instructs HIS followers to regulate such materialistic life by following the Four regulative Principles and minimum of 16 rounds.
Those who are sincere and serious in cultivating these principles selflessly are already following Spiritual life and as such, they do not need DVD at all.
That is the reason I ask you, RCB and Bh. Mark several times IF you are following DVD or not yourself in order to know where is your life standing either materialistic life or spiritual life but ………. ALAS ……… you never reveal anything about your life and keep on foolishly commenting unnecessarily baseless and useless comments thus far without any constructive conclusion what you have to offer.
Hope this ends the discussion.
Hari BOL. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT
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So, Bh. Mark, as you said that you do not want to STOP writing baseless – useless comments which you think that you are putting forth FACTS as written by you.
IF these are FACTS as you said then when you are questioned about those FACTS, you refuse whimsically to answer it. WHY ?
So, where are you going with these FACTS, Bh. Mark, when you are not able to answer the questions put forth to you based on your FACTS presentation ?
I read loud and clear that you are not going to answer the questions, and yet keep on writing non-sense comments only you will cease to write here when guided from within.
What kind of a SANE person are you ?
What Varna – Ashram are you practising along with your friend RCB ?
Wow ………….. any way, I am not awaiting your answer.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Dear Readers,
In the conversation of Srila Prabhupada on Oct. 1977 with Haṁsadūta as quoted by Bh. Mark indicate that the Varna-Ashram is indeed required for those who are materialistic life style as indicated in my previous comments which I re-produce here below for my friend Bh. Mark and RCB ;
( Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he’s a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he’s a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can… As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked. )
( Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna — ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.
Make no mistake, Spiritual life is not dependent upon it as Srila Prabhupada clarify it.
That is why HDG. Srila Prabhupada instructs HIS followers to regulate such materialistic life by following the Four regulative Principles and minimum of 16 rounds.
Those who are sincere and serious in cultivating these principles selflessly are already following Spiritual life and as such, they do not need DVD at all.
That is the reason I ask you, RCB and Bh. Mark several times IF you are following DVD or not yourself in order to know where is your life standing either materialistic life or spiritual life but ………. ALAS ……… you never reveal anything about your life and keep on foolishly commenting unnecessarily baseless and useless comments thus far without any constructive conclusion what you have to offer.
Hope it helps to clarify further for the Readers, particularly for my friend Bh. Mark and Bh. RCB.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Amara))Make no mistake, Spiritual life is not dependent upon it as Srila Prabhupada clarify it.
RCB))Not one time have I insinuated such a thing, you are just flaming on.
Amara))That is why HDG. Srila Prabhupada instructs HIS followers to regulate such materialistic life by following the Four regulative Principles and minimum of 16 rounds.
RCB))Oh my god you are puerile and obtuse to say the least. surely your reading ability is in question.
Amara))Those who are sincere and serious in cultivating these principles selflessly are already following Spiritual life and as such, they do not need DVD at all.
RCB))This just tops it all, I need waders, the Satavarupa/Harisauri shite is so deep.
Amara))That is the reason I ask you, RCB and Bh. Mark several times IF you are following DVD or not yourself in order to know where is your life standing either materialistic life or spiritual life but ………. ALAS ……… you never reveal anything about your life and keep on foolishly commenting unnecessarily baseless and useless comments thus far without any constructive conclusion what you have to offer.
RCB))You have no standing with me, I choose no to answer straw-man arguments from a person with NO STANDING IN VEDIC CULTURE either. Making this conversation about me personally is more straw-man shite.
IT IS ABOUT AN INSTRUCTION SRILA PRABHUPADA GAVE, NOT CATURBAHU!!
Amara))Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna — ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.
RCB))There is not one place in all our books(vani) this garbage can be verified. you completely removed the context and gave your own slanted conclusion contrary to Prabhupada’s explanation of DVD in Iskcon throughout this conversation. Not one time is VAD defined or explained the way you just did!!
you have truly shown yourself to be a disciple of the sinister movement in direct line with Satsvarupa and Harisauri. your contemptuous arguments are as low and debased as those demons you emulate.
Have you never read about DVD in our books?? Did you not read that nice ‘Make Vrndavana’ compilation?? no, must be beneath such an exalted personage such as yourself, right? you are above any material conditioning or motivations, right?
this is a 10th class conclusion hell bent on white washing the Vaisnava standards coming from Prabhupada to fit you erroneous mentality.
I’m so finish with responding to the likes of such a person. Same with Sudarsana or anyone else that would degrade the instruction to imbibe DVD in our lives and congregation.
If someone is out there that could have a positive question or exchange, I’m more than willing to give my time and effort to them. But you, I’m done with you and those like you.
Mahesh,
I choose not to follow your advice about embroiling myself in endless litigation with a system that has NO STANDING in the Vedic conclusion. I see no end to it(having witnessed as much with all the cult in fighting for the last 80 yrs) and so much energy dedicated to a man made corruption to human(Aryan) society.
I instead choose to circumvent their influence on our Vedic culture by creation of a constitutional/canonized ‘Transcendental See’ Founded directly by Krsna/Prabhupada in the form of DVD. What the Catholics, muslmans, jews or any other Tom, Dick or Harry can do, Krsna’s servants can do better.
Every 501c3 should be dissolved and re-coagulated in a different way negating ALL man made influence.
The other thing is if you want to win, cut of the supply apparatus of the opponent. Cut off the support. Convince the common devotee of the error of his ways following such cheaters. they are the power. If the GBC has no money for litigation, then how they will continue to pay??
PADA says 20 mil has been wasted in India and the big construction in Mayapura has slowed to a crawl.
And if the common bhakta is NOT supportive of the ksatriya/DVD system, then there is no use in trying for someone that does not want DVD in their life. Congregational support is tantamount and first way before litigation.
Your challenging my ability when there is no support for me to manage and show what I can do, is just to strawman to say the least. When those elements were present during my time in the temple, I showed my prowess and ksatriya ability for any honest devotee to observe. 1978 was the biggest book distribution yrs in the history of LA temple for a looong time. could even still be for all I know. That was my management example.
After that I left IS-A-CON for good! No DVD? you will not see me.
So I do what I’m doing now. Sorry you think it is lame. But I can live with that and will continue as I have for the past 40 yrs preaching to devotees. Living my talk
Well, well, well. OK. let me give one last chance for my friend RCB to read with patience and rapt attention to my comments already posted which I re-produce again for your his convenience and kind perusal ;
Amar Puri says:
30. June 2014 at 5:37 pm
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti ; Do you ever read and understand what you are quoting in your comments below ;
” “If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of noviate we are bound to remain where we are. ”
Source : http://krishna.org/initiation-into-spiritual-life/
How does the above apply against Srila Prabhupada’s Quote as posted in my comments which I re-produce here below for your HEARING i.e. reading and understanding it better ;
” Regarding the farm, farm opening is not very essential, but if you can do it conveniently, then do it. The varnasrama system is for convenience sake in the material world. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. Acceptance of varnasrama means a little easy progress to spiritual life, otherwise it has no importance to us. For example, all my European and American disciples have no varnasrama position, but spiritually because they have followed the rules and regulations and also my instructions, their advancement spiritually is being appreciated by everyone. Always remember that varnasrama life is a good program for material life, and it helps one in spiritual life; but spiritual life is not dependent upon it. After all the system of varnasrama has to be realized before accepting spiritual life; and the renounced order of sannyasa is the last stage of varnasrama.”
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta: – Mayapur 19 October, 1974.
Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna — ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.
Make no mistake, Spiritual life is not dependent upon it as Srila Prabhupada clarify it.
That is why HDG. Srila Prabhupada instructs HIS followers to regulate such materialistic life by following the Four regulative Principles and minimum of 16 rounds.
Those who are sincere and serious in cultivating these principles selflessly are already following Spiritual life and as such, they do not need DVD at all.
That is the reason I ask you, RCB and Bh. Mark several times IF you are following DVD or not yourself in order to know where is your life standing either materialistic life or spiritual life but ………. ALAS ……… you never reveal anything about your life and keep on foolishly commenting unnecessarily baseless and useless comments thus far without any constructive conclusion what you have to offer.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Dear Readers,
My commentary is entirely based on the Quotes from Srila Prabhupada to which RCB refuses to accept it with his free will.
RCB. is so very upset with my comments when I write this ; ” Therefore, the above two quotes clearly indicate that the Varna — ashram is designed naturally for the materialistic Individual which is indeed a good program for material life which helps in Spiritual life.”
RCB try to shuts me down with his remarks ;
” RCB))You have no standing with me, I choose no to answer straw-man arguments from a person with NO STANDING IN VEDIC CULTURE either. Making this conversation about me personally is more straw-man shite.
IT IS ABOUT AN INSTRUCTION SRILA PRABHUPADA GAVE, NOT CATURBAHU!!
My reply ; CHATURBAHU, Wake UP ! Certainly, it is not about YOU. Be humble and you never tumble.
Am I not discussing Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions ?
Do I need a standing with you in order to discuss Srila Prabhupada Instructions when YOU and your friend Bh. MaRK TRY your level best using Srila Prabhupada Quotes regarding Varna-Ashram in order to unite us ALL and when you met with questions of opposition you and your friend Bh. Mark refuses whimsically to answer it which means simply that you are hiding the truth and cheating by imposing your personal agenda with regard to Varna-Ashram Instructions ?
Is that not a FACT ?
I am glad to note that you are done with me and those like me.
May the blessings of Srila Prabhupada be upon US.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
In Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.78 ; HDG. Srila Prabhupada explains ;
” ln conclusion, a person who always concentrates on the transcendental form of Krsna within his heart can very easily strike the whole world with wonder at his activities. This is the perfection of yoga performance, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (6.47). Yoginam api sarvesam: of all yogis, the bhakti-yogi, who thinks of Krsna always within his heart and engages in His loving transcendental service, is the topmost. Ordinary yogis can exhibit wonderful material activities, known as asta-siddhi, eight kinds of yogic perfection, but a pure devotee of the Lord can surpass these perfections by performing activities which can make the whole universe tremble. ”
That kind of a Quality Person is certainly able to Unite us ALL because he would have gained the lost ” Love & Trsut ” amongst all the followers of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
That Quality Person is also able to set up the proper Varna – Ashram system very easily because having gained the lost ” Love & TRUST ” amongst us ALL .
Till such time, we have no other choice but to continue to the best of our ability as an Individual and group of Individuals in rendering service selflessly in what ever capacity we have for the mission of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada to propagate the Samkirtan movement in every town and village in order to make our respective lives sublime.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
B.Mark :You need to read the LATEST INSTRUCTIONS, given to the leaders, regarding DVD, in order to understand that he gave different “do’s” for each varna, and that sudras no longer needed to become brahmanas in order to be Vaisnava and “become perfect in this lifetime”.
Mahesh: That CONTEXT OF APPLICATION OF THE WORD USED “VAISNAVA” is in the LOOSE sense of the word. It does NOT mean that Sudra will not have to progress further to become a Brahmana THEN Vaisnava.
What is happening here is that Srila Prabhupada does NOT want ARTIFICAL RUBBERS-STAMPED Brahmanas AND THEN FALL DOWN . “Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.” This 1977 conversation does NOT replace Srimad BhagavatamSB 5.26.23. Don’t make it SAHAJIYA (cheap).
Books : The Nectar of Devotion – 1970 Edition : NoD 7: Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles : To Follow in the Footsteps of Saintly Persons :
In the scripture known as Brahma-yāmala it is stated as follows: “If someone wants to pose himself as a great devotee without following the authorities of the revealed scriptures, then his activities will never help him to make progress in devotional service. Instead, he will simply create disturbances for the sincere students of devotional service.” Those who do not strictly follow the principles of revealed scriptures are generally called sahajiyā, those who have imagined everything to be cheap, and who have their own concocted ideas, and who do not follow the scriptural injunctions. Such persons are simply creating disturbances in the discharge of devotional service.
Note: You have to look at THE CONTEXT OF APPLICATION below gives the details AS IT IS:
Room Conversation
Varṇāśrama System
Must Be Introduced
—
February 14, 1977, Māyāpura
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he’ll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he’s not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, “Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra…”
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he’s a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he’s a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
Hari-śauri:
sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ
yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can… As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have… Every temple president can…
Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarūpa: If there’s no tree?
Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarūpa: Small.
Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—”Oh, it is very big.”
Hari-śauri: I don’t follow the analogy.
Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpura now we have a situation…
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpura here now we have that situation, that so many…
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa…
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We’re just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-śauri: The principle we’re following.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the… For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa’s instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to…
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right. They’re simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so our duty is to convince that “You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human… You take this. You’ll be happy.” We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇa’s lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But… Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that “I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals.” Tato vimūḍha-cetasa indriyārtha: “They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification.” Indriyārtha. “And for that purpose, a few years, they’re making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?” And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature’s law is working, how he’s going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that “Here is the position.”
Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing… A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya… Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress… That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, “No. Simply the legs shall be taken care.” What is called? Proly?
Hari-śauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarūpa: The laborers.
Prabhupāda: That’s all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?
Hari-śauri: Well, they’re all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They’re all giving stress to…
Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriya’s business. That is… That is… No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said… He arranged the battlefield, because the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now…
Hari-śauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: “All right, you come together and finish yourselves.” So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas’ business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So demons… As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves…
Prabhupāda: At least… At least… At least they will see, “This is the ideal.”
Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we’re running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we’re running our centers.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?
Hari-śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: So why you are taking “we”? Why not others? This is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of “we.” That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. It is not that “we.” Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.
Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari-śauri: We are thinking of “we” because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari-śauri: It can’t be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarūpa: Just like…
Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarūpa: But no one’s listening and no one’s taking it up except a few…
Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.
Hari-śauri: That’s why we say, “we.”
Prabhupāda: That “We said” means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the… Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-śauri: Well, again, that’s…
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they’ll follow it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Set the example.
Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He’s a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari’ jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “I am not a sannyāsī.” But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. [break] In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: The PRACTICAL reality is EVEN a SUDRA has to make PROGRESS TO COME TO THE STAGE OF BRAHMANA. Those who are taking BIG SALARIES in ISKCON DISOBEYING SRILA PRABHUPADA ARE SUDRAS AND THEIR DESTINY IS HERE:
SB 5.26.23 A Description of the Hellish Planets
The shameless husbands of lowborn sudra women live exactly like animals, and therefore they have no good behavior, cleanliness or regulated life. After death, such persons are thrown into the hell called Puyoda, where they are put into an ocean filled with pus, stool, urine, mucus, saliva and similar things. SUDRAS WHO COULD NOT IMPROVE THEMSELVES FALL INTO THAT OCEAN AND ARE FORCED TO EAT THOSE DISGUSTING THINGS.
PURPORT
Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has sung,
karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, kevala visera banda,
amrta baliya yeba khaya
nana yoni sada phire, kadarya bhaksana kare,
tara janma adah-pate yaya
He says that persons following the paths of karma-kanda and jnana-kanda (fruitive activities and speculative thinking) are missing the opportunities for human birth and gliding down into the cycle of birth and death. Thus there is always the chance that he may be put into the Puyoda Naraka, the hell named Puyoda, where one is forced to eat stool, urine, pus, mucus, saliva and other abominable things. It is significant that this verse is spoken especially about sudras. If one is born a sudra, he must continually return to the ocean of Puyoda to eat horrible things. Thus even a born sudra is expected to become a brahmana; that is the meaning of human life. Everyone should improve himself. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, four divisions of human society were created by Me.” EVEN IF ONE IS BY QUALIFICATION A SUDRA, HE MUST TRY TO IMPROVE HIS POSITION AND BECOME A BRAHMANA. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO CHECK A PERSON, NO MATTER WHAT HIS PRESENT POSITION IS, FROM COMING TO THE PLATFORM OF A BRAHMANA OR A VAISNAVA. Actually, one must come to the platform of a Vaisnava. Then he automatically becomes a brahmana. This can be done only if the Krsna consciousness movement is spread, for we are trying to elevate everyone to the platform of Vaisnava. As Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (18.66), sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: “Abandon all other duties and simply surrender unto Me.” One must give up the occupational duties of a sudra, ksatriya or vaisya and adopt the occupational duties of a Vaisnava, which include the activities of a brahmana. Krsna explains this in Bhagavad-gita (9.32):
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te ‘pi yanti param gatim
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination.” Human life is specifically meant for going back home, back to Godhead. THAT FACILITY SHOULD BE GIVEN TO EVERYONE, WHETHER ONE BE A SUDRA, A VAISYA, A WOMAN OR A KSATRIYA. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT. HOWEVER, IF ONE IS SATISFIED TO REMAIN A SUDRA, HE MUST SUFFER AS DESCRIBED IN THIS VERSE: TAD EVATIBIBHATSITAM ASNANTI.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: EVEN a Brahnmana is REQUIRED to become a VAISNAVA by QUALIFICATION what to speak of Sudra.
Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.20
TEXT 20
evaṁ prasanna-manaso
bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ
bhagavat-tattva-vijñānaṁ
mukta-saṅgasya jāyate
SYNONYMS
evam—thus; prasanna—enlivened; manasaḥ—of the mind; bhagavat-bhakti—the devotional service of the Lord; yogataḥ—by contact of;bhagavat—regarding the Personality of Godhead; tattva—knowledge;vijñānam—scientific; mukta—liberated; saṅgasya—of the association;jāyate—becomes effective.
TRANSLATION
Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage ofliberation from all material association.
PURPORT
In the Bhagavad-gītā (7.3) it is said that out of many thousands of ordinary men, one fortunate man endeavors for perfection in life. Mostly men are conducted by the modes of passion and ignorance, and thus they are engaged always in lust, desire, hankerings, ignorance and sleep. Out of many such manlike animals, there is actually a man who knows the responsibility of human life and thus tries to make life perfect by following the prescribed duties. And out of many thousands of such persons who have thus attained success in human life, one may know scientifically about the Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa. In the sameBhagavad-gītā (18.55) it is also said that scientific knowledge of ŚrīKṛṣṇa is understood only by the process of devotional service (bhakti-yoga).
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection ofhuman life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainmentof success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brāhmaṇa by qualification. A brāhmaṇa is the symbol of sattva-guṇa, or the mode of goodness. And others, who are not in the mode of goodness, are either kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras or less than the śūdras. The brahminical stage is the highest stage of human life because of its good qualities. So one cannot be a devotee unless one at least qualifies as a brāhmaṇa.The devotee is already a brāhmaṇa by action. But that is not the end ofit. As referred to above, such a brāhmaṇa has to become a Vaiṣṇava in fact to be actually in the transcendental stage. A PURE VAIṢṆAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRĀHMAṆA.IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRĀHMAṆA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KṚṢṆA. The science of the Personality of Godhead is the subject matter for study by the postgraduate students in the spiritual line. Foolish men, or men with a poor fund of knowledge, do not understand the Supreme Lord, and they interpret Kṛṣṇa according to their respective whims. The fact is, however, that one cannot understand the science of the Personality ofGodhead unless one is freed from the contamination of the material modes, even up to the stage of a brāhmaṇa. WHEN A QUALIFIED BRĀHMAṆA FACTUALLY BECOMES A VAIṢṆAVA, IN THE ENLIVENED STATE OF LIBERATION HE CAN KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.
Note Sahajiya means those who want to make it CHEAP because they can NOT FOLLOW . It is NOT cheap to become VAISNAVA:
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
Brahmana (Kanistha Adhikari)
BY: MAHESH RAJA
Mar 24, UK (SUN) — A reply to Basu Ghosh prabhu, who stated, “Prabhupada wrote that kanishtas and madhyamas CAN INITIATE.”
On Tue, 17/3/09, Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN) wrote:
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaishava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaishavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaishava or a Vaishava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
From Nectar of Instruction, Verse 5, SP’s purport.
Again: “A neophyte Vaishava or a Vaishava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples.”
Prabhupada wrote that kanishtas and madhyamas CAN INITIATE.
So how can they not? Wake up from your “false uptopia”. Or go on, create a separate institution, but remember: the membership should only be open to “uttama adhikaris”, such as yourself! 😉 ”
Look at the quote again — there is NO MENTION that Kanistha or Madhyama can give Diksa.
You wrote, “Prabhupada wrote that kanishtas and madhyamas CAN INITIATE.”
Read below and TRY and UNDERSTAND what DIKSA is FIRST.
Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
This is a misunderstanding – you will not find ONE quote to say Kanistha or even a Madhyam devotee can act as DIKSA guru.
THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS
There are two aspects in initiation:
1) Formality (Pancaratriki) – name giving ceremony etc
2) Diksa(Knowledge) – spiritual initiation received by Madhyama adhikari
As shown previously in my article”, the Ritvik ***Representative*** was to allow for the function of Formality. So a question may be raised, why formality?
The answer is very simple: the Diksa given to Madhyama adhikari is NOT a formality. Initiation offered to neophyte/Kanistha IS a Formality. THIS is the BIG difference.
In conformity with the establishment of the formality of a Ritvik System 9th July 1977, Srila Prabhupada’s signed directive to the society the Pancaratriki regulations were followed in this initiation. “THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS”
“This is a general principle. However, A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as ‘guru’ and ‘acharya’ by strictly following the disciplic succession.”
(Lecture 26th April, 1968. New York)
Whether one uses the terms OFFICIATING ACARYA OR RITVIK OR REPRESENTATIVE they mean the SAME ie to ACT ON BEHALF OF ACARYA. So this is act as “guru” and “Acarya”. They ACTING as OFFICIATING ACARYA OR RITVIK REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA. They are NOT acarya but acting as in capacity to OFFICIATE on behalf of the ACARYA. This is very clear. Srila Prabhupada has in all front cover of the Books:
Founder-Acarya His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The hypen means Srila Prabhupada IS the ACARYA of ISKCON not simply its Founder consequently, one who wants to accept the position of formality of initiating others can ONLY do so ON BELHALF of Srila Prabhupada the ACARYA. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa giving position in ISKCON as long as it exists is IRREPLACEABLE.
Srila Prabhupada’s introduction of Ritvik Initiations (PANCARATRIKI) is fully justified as the formalities may be changed “can also be initiated according to circumstances.”
SB 4.8.54 Purport: Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
68-06-12. Letter: whom it may concern In each center we have got hundreds of disciples and followers, and our initiated disciples are strictly following the restrictions as principle, as follows: (1) no illicit sex life, (2) no intoxication, including coffee, tea, and cigarettes, (3) no gambling, (4) no meat eating. We have got both Brahmacaris and Householders as disciples, and all of them are following the above mentioned principles. THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS. According to Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita, anyone, including so-called low born men, who may take shelter unto the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna or His devotees, is sanctified by initiation process.
kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah
How such thing can be possible is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that by special all-pervading power of Visnu this is possible.
721027ND.VRN Lecture:
So we are trying to follow Sanatana Gosvami. By diksa-vidhanena, by imitating persons any, from anywhere. It does not matter. Because in this age, Kali-yuga, the diksa-vidhana is performed according, according to Pancaratrika-vidhi. Not Vaidika-vidhi. Vaidika-vidhi is very strict. Unless one is bona fide son of a dvija, the initiation was not given. To the sudras, there was no initiation. A brahmana ksatriya, vaisya. So these are the Vedic process. SO IN THE KALI-YUGA, BECAUSE IT IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT EVERYONE IS A SUDRA, THEREFORE VAIDIKA-VIDHANA CANNOT BE APPLIED. VAIDIKA-VIDHANA REQUIRES THAT ONE MUST BE BORN BY A BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA. THEN HE’S ELIGIBLE FOR BEING INITIATED. BUT IN THE KALI-YUGA, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED.
680724IN.MON Lecture
sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratriki vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate
This is the definition given by Srila Rupa Gosvami, that to become a devotee of the Lord, Krsna, one has to follow the principles of sruti and smrti, and pancaratriki-vidhi. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, there is no Vedic vidhi. Because Vedic vidhi is lost. Formerly, initiation was offered to a person who is actually born of a brahmana father. Otherwise… Or the higher caste, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, and the vaisyas, they were offered initiation, and the sudras were not offered. That was the Vedic system. But in this age the sastra says that kalau sudra sambhava. IN THIS AGE OF KALI PRACTICALLY THERE IS NO MORE ANY BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, OR VAISYA. MAYBE BY NAME, BUT IN QUALIFICATION THEY ARE NOT EXISTING. EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SUDRA. SO IN KALI-YUGA THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED. The pancaratriki-vidhi is also Vedic vidhi, corollary, given by Narada Mahamuni. But it is accepted by the Vedic followers, pancaratriki-vidhi.
Pancaratriki-vidhi means if any one has a little inclination for spiritual development, he should be given chance. This initiation means to give chance. The Bhagavata says that kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah. These are the list of the candalas or less than the sudras. So Bhagavata gives open road for everyone. Even one is kirata… Kirata means… Generally they are called aborigines, or the very black aborigines living in the jungles, they are called kirata.
710329BG.BOM Lecture
Our Sanatana Gosvami gives direction in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one man can become a brahmana by the regular process of diksa. Diksa, this initiation, cannot be offered to a sudra. Diksa cannot be offered to a sudra. But in this age, Kali-yuga, it is the statement of the sastras that in the Kali-yuga most of the population are sudras. Kalau sudra sambhavah. How they can be initiated? This initiation is offered not according to the Vedic rules, because it is very difficult to find out a qualified brahmana. DIKSA IS OFFERED TO A QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. THEREFORE THIS DIKSA IS OFFERED ACCORDING TO PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI. THAT IS RECOMMENDED IN THIS AGE. MY SPIRITUAL MASTER INAUGURATED THIS PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI, AND WE ARE FOLLOWING HIS FOOTSTEPS. Anyone who is inclined to devote his life for Krsna, he should be accepted as brahmana.
A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.** THIS IS DIKSA**.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee FULLY SURRENDERS UNTO THE SERVICE OF THE LORD, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders SERVICE to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
“‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, AND BECOMES FIT TO ENJOY THE SPIRITUAL BLISS OF EXCHANGE OF LOVING MELLOWS WITH ME.’
Nectar of Instruction 5:
In order to intelligently apply the sixfold loving reciprocations mentioned in the previous verse, one must select proper persons with careful discrimination. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore advises that we should meet with the Vaisnavas in an appropriate way, according to their particular status. In this verse he tells us how to deal with three types of devotees–the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The kanistha-adhikari is a neophyte who has received the hari-nama initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Krsna. One should respect such a person within his mind as a kanistha-vaisnava. A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service. The uttama-adhikari, or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krsna consciousness. According to Srila Rupa Gosvami, the association and service of such a maha-bhagavata, or perfect Vaisnava, are most desirable.s to act for everyone’s welfare.
In this Srila Prabhupada makes a point of Initiation as a formality this is different from Madhyama Adhikaris receiving Diksa
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer:
What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
Whereas Srila Prabhupada DELIVERS by giving DIKSA knowledge the formality is conducted by the Ritviks (Representatives of Acarya).
Kanistha adhikari is supposed to be in the mode of Goodness Sattva guna not on Visuddha Sattava platform which is Pure Goodness so he can NOT give diksa. How can a Kanistha adhikari give diksa if he himself is not free from all material contamination?
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service:
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
If Kanistha adhikari could give this Diksa to another this means there would be no material contamination at all but he cannot do this. ONLY at Madhyama adhikari stage one can initiated with transcendental Knowledge and become freed from ALL material contamination. It is mistakenly misunderstood that even Kanistha or Madhyama adhikari give diksa this is perhaps due to the understanding they CAN accept disciples. Please see the quote below:
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and the uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritualmaster.” (Purport, Nectar of Instruction)
In this quote please note there is no mention of giving diksa at all. In fact it does NOT encourage accepting spiritual master from the Madhyama or Kanistha. The quote is about taking discipline NOT Diksa. The 3rd Offence in chanting is to disobey the Spiritual master so in either case if one becomes a spiritual master without being on Uttama Adhikari he will be committing offense and if he accepts one who is not on uttama adhikari he will commit offense in the chanting of the holy name.
Diksa is illustrated graphically here Vasudeva was on Suddha sattva platform this is why from him Krsna is transferred to Devaki
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb: Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT:
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.
SB 8.5.29 P The Demigods Appeal to the Lord for Protection:
Sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam (Bhag. 4.3.23). In this material world, the three modes of material nature–goodness, passion and ignorance–prevail. Among these three, goodness is the platform of knowledge, and passion brings about a mixture of knowledge and ignorance, but the mode of ignorance is full of darkness. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead is beyond darkness and passion. He is on the platform where goodness or knowledge is not disturbed by passion and ignorance. This is called the vasudeva platform. It is on this platform of vasudeva that Vasudeva, or Krsna, can appear.
SB 5.3.20 P Rsabhadeva’ s Appearance in the Womb of Merudevi, the Wife of King Nabhi:
Lord Visnu descends in His suddha-sattva form. Suddha-sattva refers to the sattva-guna which is never contaminated. In this material world, even the mode of goodness (sattva-guna) is contaminated by tinges of rajo-guna and tamo-guna. When sattva-guna is never contaminated by rajo-guna and tamo-guna, it is called suddha-sattva. Sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam (Bhag. 4.3.23). That is the platform of vasudeva, whereby the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva, can be experienced.
Karma is taken by UTTAMA-ADHAKARI. Only he can DELIVER by definition. uttama-adhikari Sei taraye samsara.
Madhya 22.65 The Process of Devotional Service:
uttama-adhikari–the topmost devotee; sei–he; taraye samsara–can deliver the whole world.
Srila Prabhupada delivers. He GIVES Diksa. Formalities of initiation are done by his Ritvik Representatives.
For further evidence, read articles 1-6 contained herein.
Kanistha Adhikari is a QUALIFIED Brahmana.
Still Kanistha has got material contamination. HOW can a Kanistha Adhikari give Diksa when:
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service:
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
YOU are indicating that Kanistha Adhikari who WHO HAS GOT MATERIAL CONTIMINATION is able to
Brahmana (Kanistha Adhikari)
SB 1.2.17 T Divinity and Divine Service
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone’s heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.
Nectar of Instruction 5:
The kanistha-adhikari is a neophyte who has received the hari-nama initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Krsna. One should respect such a person within his mind as a kanistha-vaisnava. A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.
Kanistha adhikari is QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. Even such a preson is TRYING to chant so when we speak of actually chanting and Krishna dancing on our tongues is on the Vaisnava platform. This means first we have to ACQUIRE brahminical QUALITIES then advance to Madhyama adhikari stage – OFFENSELESS chanting.
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a QUALIFIED brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. AND BELOW THE BRAHMANA THERE IS NO QUESTION OF VAISNAVA.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA , OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
PURPORT
This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:
dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya
“A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”
Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)
In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
jnana-vijnana-santosah
satyastikye dvisad gunah
“Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.
I am not the body is a very good slogan but when someone is sarcastic towards my body, mind, intelligence – then – I am the body. Then we dispatch our anger on the opponent. Contrast that with below:
“730828BG.LON Lectures
So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati.
“THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH.” Srila Prabhupada KNEW that they were NOT EVEN on KANISTHA platform this is the significance of why he used “MAY BE”. Otherwise Srila Prabhupada would have used ARE instead. They were NOT truthful AND were disobedient to Guru – this is lack of Brahminical quality – how can they be EVEN Kanistha adhikari?
74-04-28. Letter: Rupanuga
You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, AT LEAST HE EXECUTES THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.
Nectar of Instruction 5:
A madhyama-adhikari has received SPIRITUAL INITIATION from the spiritual master and has been FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.
Antya 4.192
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
“At the time of INITIATION, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the SERVICE of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, IN THAT TRANSCENDENTAL BODY, renders SERVICE to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194
“‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, AND BECOMES FIT TO ENJOY THE SPIRITUAL BLISS OF EXCHANGE OF LOVING MELLOWS WITH ME.’
Antya 4.194P
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). AT THE TIME OF INITIATION, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. THEREFORE, BEING IN TOUCH WITH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, HE IS SITUATED ON THE TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. THUS HAVING ATTAINED KNOWLEDGE AND THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM, HE ALWAYS ENGAGES IN THE SERVICE OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF KRSNA. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service.
Narada-bhakti-sutra 2 Purport:
If a person is fortunate enough to vanquish all misgivings caused by material existence and rise up to the stage of nistha, he can then rise to the stages of ruci (taste) and asakti (attachment for the Lord). Asakti is the beginning of love of Godhead. BY PROGRESSING, ONE THEN ADVANCES TO THE STAGE OF RELISHING A RECIPROCAL EXCHANGE WITH THE LORD IN ECSTASY (BHAVA). Every living entity is eternally related to the Supreme Lord, and this relationship may be in any one of many transcendental humors. AT THE STAGE CALLED ASAKTI, ATTACHMENT, A PERSON CAN UNDERSTAND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SUPREME LORD. When he understands his position, he begins reciprocating with the Lord. By constant reciprocation with the Lord, the devotee is elevated to the highest stage of love of Godhead, prema.
Adi 7.83
In this verse it is explained that one who chants the Hare Krsna mantra develops BHAVA, ECSTASY, WHICH IS THE POINT AT WHICH REVELATION BEGINS.
NoI 5
One therefore has to raise himself from the position of kanistha-adhikari to the platform of madhyama-adhikari. The madhyama-adhikari is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.46) in this way:
isvare tad-adhinesu
balisesu dvisatsu ca
prema-maitri-krpopeksa
yah karoti sa madhyamah
“The madhyama-adhikari is a devotee who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the highest object of love, MAKES FRIENDS WITH THE LORD’S DEVOTEES, is merciful to the ignorant and avoids those who are envious by nature.”
NoD 17 Ecstatic Love
“By the process of executing regulated devotional service, one is actually elevated onto the transcendental stage, beyond the material modes of nature. At that time one’s heart becomes illuminated like the sun. The sun is far above the planetary systems, and there is no possibility of its being covered by any kind of cloud; similarly, when a devotee is purified like the sun, from his pure heart there is a diffusion of ecstatic love which is more glorious than the sunshine. Only at that time is the attachment to Krsna perfect. SPONTANEOUSLY, THE DEVOTEE BECOMES EAGER TO SERVE THE LORD IN HIS ECSTATIC LOVE. AT THIS STAGE THE DEVOTEE IS ON THE PLATFORM OF UTTAMA-ADHIKARI, PERFECT DEVOTION. Such a devotee has no agitation from material affections and is interested only in the service of Radha and Krsna.”
I must concur with RCB’s conclusion. This conversation has been nothing but an exercise in diversion dodging and deflection from the substance via various logical fallacies and strawmen.
From RCB’s first comment that was completely misinterpreted and misunderstood. Although clarified quite carefully going forward. His criticism was clear. So much focus on preaching ritvik initiation over the years while no balance of preaching DVD has resulted in what we see today. If all these devotees preaching ritvik are so exalted that none need DVD, then were is the great success? Where has a group of ritvik based devotees “automatically” formed into a powerful self sufficient DVD based community? The lack of unity of purpose is then blamed on selfish ksatriyas who haven’t unified the entire movement? Rather than the incompetent so called brahmanas who apparently have never even read Srila Prabhupada’s detailed instructions for introducing DVD, who whine on and on about following 4 regulative principles without knowing how those principles were redefined and expanded on by Prabhupada himself, to include taking intoxication and eating meat. Oh, but we are too pure for such instructions, DVD is for animals, our internet based preaching is certainly superior to a Sankirtana community based in Srila Prabhupada’s scheme of management.
When Nimai Pandit dasa made me temporary acting temple president of Iskcon Inc. Long Island 5 years ago, he seemed to be on the same page of DVD introduction. But when I began to go forward I received all kinds of resistance. Before anyone even heard how I would introduce it, conclusions were jumped to. That crazy Bhakta Mark was going to kick out the congregation! They would no longer be allowed to come to the temple because they were not initiated! The so called Swami who was living there at the time who was handicapped and ill felt incredibly threatened. Strict following? Heaven forbid. And he got on the phone to all the “pious Hindu” devotees who comprised the congregation and told them I was threatening to ruin their temple, I would be like a mini Hitler and forbid them from attendance if they didn’t follow impossible rules. I was planning to steal all the donations. Krsna Balarama Swami did not want to lose his gig of playing pseudo family priest who was adored by all the local pious hindu devotees. So after rallying the locals, he was even able to get his arch nemesis Nimai Pandit (actual TP) on his side via phone calls to India, by threatening Nimai with a congregation revolt. This all before even talking to me about what DVD was and what it would mean for everyone, based on the huge misconception of Prabhupada’s DVD plan as a boogeyman that would exile everyone or some crap like that.
So in a few days, I go from well liked and accepted to having threats of having the police called on me unless I vacate the premises. The guy who was holding the morning program every day because the Swami was too sick to wake up early, who was bringing that temple up from the ashes, is suddenly a poison snake.
Fast forward to the recent cry for help from Krsna Balarama Swami’s friend Gaura das as mentioned in the Sampradaya Sun. He is being left for dead…
“He has been experiencing kidney failure and is on a dialysis machine. A crew of devotees is required that can take turns taking care of his personal needs, cooking, administrating medication, laundry, shopping and accompanying him for treatments. His internal organs are inflamed. He is constantly in pain, from the time he rests until he wakes up. He can’t wear a belt due to the pain but has to wear suspenders. He is very morose and is feeling neglected.”
So, where are all those wealthy long Island pious Hindus now? A crew of devotees needed for full time assistance? And who will pay for them and where will anyone find them. There is NO ONE living at that temple but the Swami and one other Prabhu. Nimai Pandit “the president” hasn’t lived there in years. I had already been making arrangements with a Prabhu who had land in NY state, and making arrangements for a business to make money, and knew that KB swami was on dialysis and would need a place to retreat to as well as all senior devotees in their old age. That was already part of my DVD plan. Nimai insisted that we abandon Long Island and create a DVD community in Berkeley California, and I replied that I was in Long Island, and DVD can be done anywhere if devotees with faith agree to try it.
NOW WHAT? They have nothing, and will have nothing but suffering.
I stand absolved. I tried. Everyone is too purely spiritual and already successful to stoop to DVD instructions from that anachronistic Acarya so fine. Good luck and good bye.
Hare Krsna
B.Mark : Good luck and good bye. Hare Krsna
Mahesh: Example is better than precept. If DVD is what you REALLY want. Practice what you preach: go and JUST DO IT! Nityananda in Fiji and Dayalu Nitai are doing something PRACTICAL. BE AN EXAMPLE. The LEADERSHIP quality. LEAD BY EXAMPLE. Show us what what DVD is in PRACTICE.
Hare Krsna!
Bh. Mark writes ; ” ………… Rather than the incompetent so called brahmanas who apparently have never even read Srila Prabhupada’s detailed instructions for introducing DVD, who whine on and on about following 4 regulative principles without knowing how those principles were redefined and expanded on by Prabhupada himself, to include taking intoxication and eating meat. …… ”
Can Bh. Mark, please post the redefined and expanded Instructions on DVD by Srila Prabhupada himself allowing intoxication and meat eating for introducing DVD to His followers in His Instructions – VANI ?
Thank you.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
yes, yes Mahesh, I know everything you just printed in that wall of text and the purport of it all, I have not been living under a rock for the last 15 years. You miss the point though. Refusal to even understand what the rules and regulations for the other varnas other than brahmana are is tantamount to rejecting Prabhupada’s DVD and means that you aren’t helping anyone advance anywhere because you don’t even know how to instruct them.
You need to accept that broad “loose” definition of Vaisnava, include those who fall under it, and acknowledge that they ARE vaisnavas to that extent, and THEN oversee their following of the rules and regs for their varna so that they come to the highest level of Vaisnavism in due course.
That is all I have been saying, and in reply I am told everything from it is “impractical” to “we are already spiritual Vaisnavas so we don’t need DVD we can just practice the 9 devotional methods or just follow the 4 rules and regs (while not even knowing what they are in their broader context).”
I didn’t see you trying to correct those misconceptions being repeated over and over by Sudarsana and Amar in this conversation. Is that because you don’t actually understand the concept you are preaching?
Regarding initiation, one word in one letter not written by Prabhupada is enough for our friends to reject a spiritual master and declare themselves on the level of spritual masters. But when it comes to establishing varnasrama, hundreds of instructions of Prabhupada still make our friends consider that they don’t need varnasrama in today’s context. What an hypocricy?
When Prabhupada said varnasrama has to be established, it has to be. Those who have faith will do it, others will keep finding reasons to not do.
Morning Walk
“Varnasrama College”
—
March 14, 1974, Vrndavana
Hrdayananda: Not necessary. So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna and asr…Learning a materia…
Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly in order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they’re on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on.
Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.
Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment.
Hrdayananda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gita and…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varnasrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Krsna conscious men, we are above varnasrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody’s shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it… Just like a servant is doing. The master is, “Oh, you cannot do. Just see.” Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varna and asrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He, he was perfect Vaisnava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, “Oh, I am now become Vaisnava. I cannot kill.” What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yaksas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yaksa-raja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that “You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yaksas. So you can take some benediction from me.” He said, “That’s all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Krsna. That’s all.” This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yaksa-raja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, “Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Krsna.” This is Vaisnava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Krsna. Similarly, even if we take to varnasrama, we do not belong to any… Just like Krsna says, maya srstam. “I have inaugurated.” But Krsna has nothing to do with varnasrama. Similarly, if we act as varnasrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varnasrama.(END)
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, can you say something about the training for a brahmana.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are satyam samah damah. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind… samo damah,… He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyam samo damah saucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Krsna. This is brahmana.
Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?
Prabhupada: They’ll be teaching. They’ll be all teachers.
Hrdayananda: Oh, they’ll be teachers.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. General teacher class will be the brahmanas. It doesn’t matter what he’s teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna’s fighting was due to Dronacarya. He learned it from Dronacarya. He was a brahmana. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he’ll become teacher. This is brahmana.
Hrdayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight?
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmana means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.
Satsvarupa: This is all very new.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: This is very new. It seems there’ll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.
Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?
Satsvarupa: Yes, we have to… No, we have to learn, though.
Prabhupada: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.
Satsvarupa: Then it becomes easy.
Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.(END)
Hrdayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to…
Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.(END)
Visnujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Visnujana: …that we live there and…
Prabhupada: No. But we are taking it, “Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat.”
Visnujana: Then there’ll be wide criticism.
Prabhupada: That is… This is not good.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada…
Prabhupada: You should remain always sannyasi within. Outwardly, for others’ convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varnasrama. We are not varnasrama; we are above varnasrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Krsna consciousness, this program must be done.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?
Prabhupada: No, we don’t charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brahmanas, they’ll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven’t got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.
Hrdayananda: The vaisya students will produce the food.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varnasrama college, or…?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. They should go.
Hrdayananda: We’ll start it right away.
Prabhupada: Varnasrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.
Hrdayananda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?
Prabhupada: Yes. Ten to twelve years.
Hrdayananda: They can start at ten to twelve?
Prabhupada: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varnasrama college.(END)
Letter to: Sudama
—
Rome
26 May, 1974
74-05-26
Honolulu
My dear Sudama Maharaja,
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of letters from devotees of Hawaii ISKCON dated 4/23/74.
Based on their declarations of sincerely following all the prescribed Vaisnava regulations for one year, and on your recommendation, I have accepted Jagat Prabhu das, Praghosa das, Kanva das and Nitai Gauracandra das for second initiation and I have enclosed sacred thread and gayatri. You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad. Now that we are more and more trying to implement the varnasrama divisions of society, we should not think that everyone has to become a brahmana. For example you are developing a farm there; so those who work the farm do not necessarily have to be a brahmana if they are not inclined to the brahminical standards. In this way, be careful about awarding the second initiation.
In my upcoming touring programs I am going to attend Rathayatra in Australia from June 26 until about July 2, then I am going to the U.S. for Rathayatra. So it may be that I will break my journey in Hawaii and see you then. I shall inform you further. Please keep me informed of all developments with the land and devotees there. I will be in Paris from June 6, to June 15.
Your ever well wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/sdg
A letter like this is not plain enough to understand that Prabhupada demands DVD in Iskcon?
Amar,
A brahmana should be prepared to guide and even train those with Ksatriya spirit from their current level of conditioning according to the guidance about Ksatriyas given in the Tokyo conversation of 4/15/72 as well as in the essential Varnasrama discussions you will find below.
I say this on the authority of Srila Prabhupada who went so far as to give the order for Iskcon brahmanas to learn other varnas skills and teach them.
– Varnasrama college morning walk 3/14/4, Vṛndāvana – excerpts
Prabhupada: “He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda: And there should… Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.
Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles… They follow…
Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas… Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.
Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat- eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas.
Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow.
Prabhupāda: No. Cow… The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition.
This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?
Prabhupāda: They’ll be teaching. They’ll be all teachers.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, they’ll be teachers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the brāhmaṇas. It doesn’t matter what he’s teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna’s fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a brāhmaṇa. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he’ll become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.
Satsvarūpa: This is all very new.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: This is very new. It seems there’ll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to… No, we have to learn, though.
Prabhupāda: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.
Satsvarūpa: Then it becomes easy.
Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.
Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to…
Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.
Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That’s right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he’s teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.
Hṛdayānanda: It’s not that one teacher has to teach everything.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they’ll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method—varṇāśrama.
Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a…
Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will… One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.
Yaduvara: How would the kṣatriyas kill the animals?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?
Prabhupāda: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got… If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivrāja, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or… Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, “Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?” Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That’s all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and… So why should I not take it?
——————————————–
3 years later, Srila Prabhupada shoots down the notion that his disciples should emulate Mahaprabhu and Haridas who rejected varnasrama for “chanting only” and is adamant about division by varna in Iskcon and training all varnas. He also introduces the idea of different rules and regs for sudras who ARE IN THE SAME POSITION AS DEVOTEE.
Excerpt from “DVD MUST BE INTRODUCED”. 2/14/77 Mayapura.
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become… In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation.
Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?
Satsvarūpa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That’s the easiest.
Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda…
Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The… People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarūpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and…, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show- bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…
Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the…, being as we’re training up as Vaiṣṇavas…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: …then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.
Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-śauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform…
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is…
Prabhupāda: That is… Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.
Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: …brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You’ll be ha…
Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then…
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hari-śauri: …unless one is…
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: …inclined.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam… He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he’ll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa.
——————————————————————
As we now know, we were iand are in essence no different than “the public” and in these conversations, SP was generously considering the Iskcon leaders topmost Vaisnavas, while simultaneously observing by their behavior and misunderstanding that they were barely his sudras.
For more direct and specific details on the expansion of the 4 rules and regs, other than the aforementioned 72 Tokyo conversation, read 3/12/74 morning walk in VRD, 4/20/74 morning walk in HYD, 1/1/75 Room con. in New ORL., CC Madhya 24.250.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krsna
Bh. Mark and Bh. RCB,
I thank you both very much for posting Srila Prabhupada’s discussion on DVD as well as His allowing certain followers ON OCCASION which I thought it was a carte blanche as I perceived it from your message but it is not a carte blanche at all.
My curiosity is certainly satisfied because it confirms exactly what I knew in the Karma Kanda section of the Vedas allowing certain people eat meat and wine or liquor on certain OCCASION with a specific rituals.
As I have said in my many post that certainly Varna-Ashram is required and it exists naturally with the Individual because our body is designed as such. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada explains it and elaborate it very nicely in the conversation to His followers for establishing it in His world wide Society.
However, the Leaders appointed by Srila Prabhupada did defy His Order and thus, operate His Society the way it best suit their agenda.
Now it leaves certain Individuals and group of Individuals who are following Srila Prabhupada VANI but have no ” Love & TRUST ” amongst each other because it has been lost on account of the so called deviant Leaders entrusted by Srila Prabhupada.
It is indeed up to the Individuals ( You, BH. RCB, Bh. Mark, myself and others…..) how and who can gain the lost Love and Trust of each other and work together selflessly under Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
That Leadership is MISSING. Until and unless, that missing link unite us all, we have no other choice but to carry forward Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions selflessly to the best way possible.
That is my submission.
Hope it meets satisfactory.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar,
That leadership you mention is present in the immediate physical environment of anyone who has heard Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, is following them to the best of their ability, and is capable of recognizing the situation of others and suggesting relevant instruction. Whether or not there is anyone or many ones taking instruction from that realizer is up to the will of Paramatma and the willingness of those ones to be there and be willing. That leader may be trustworthy and kindly disposed toward others (so called love) and have many, one, or no students in their life.
Next, some disciples of Srila Prabhupada who do not know his comprehensive instructions are still honestly guiding others within the limits of their knowledge, and if they are trustworthy and sincere, they realize that much of SP’s vani has been hidden by apa-Iskcon leaders, so they are always DIRECTLY researching Srila Prabhupada’s vani to expand their ability to know all that he intended for success. Such humble leaders would never reject a well wishing devotee making a kind assessment of their situation and offering advice on raising their spiritual standard based on SP’s vani previously unknown to that leader.
At the same time, in every camp inside and outside of apa-Iskcon (ritvik-nugas) there are leaders who are satisfied with offering guidance (ultimately misleading) according to their limited knowledge, are in a situation with students they are comfortable with (lording over), and are resistant to knowing anything new that would suggest change is required. Their students and associates “love” and trust them, but are not wise to what they are missing out on.
Within the body of Vani I have pointed to, there is given concession for material habits and the regulatory method by which they may be indulged. I don’t know why you perceived “carte blanche”, when I simply wrote these were expanded “rules and REGULATIONS” for the varnas. Regulation being the key word negating any conception of libertine “carte blanch”.
More important than the concessions for various sense gratification are the various activities mentioned that the members of each varna are meant to engage in. These activities were those that Srila Prabhupada considered were essential to purifying his Iskcon community while simultaneously providing the ability for the members to cooperate and push on the Sankirtana duties IN THEIR PURE FORM AS HE INTENDED, and to prevent that Sankirtana from being watered down into predominantly catering to the public through humanitarian food service, show bottle theme parks, a token plot of land with a shed full of cows, all largely supported by donations of a congregation slaving in karmi jobs, and a Sunday church atmosphere with special holidays.
And even that type of situation can be utilized to improve upon and transition to what Srila Prabhupada intended. ONLY if his instructions for what he intended are accepted and acted upon, and they can be implemented at any time from any stage, because they are TRANSCENDENTALLY DESCENDED. And only appear material because they are under the heading of DVD, combined with the stubborn sahajiya willingness to misunderstand their potency and applicability, under the pretense of our current activities being already spiritually superior and that considering or emphasizing these DVD instructions is step down toward material conception, and they will arise automatically as a result of our already superior spiritual trajectory.
As for me, I am certainly near death, have no students in my presence, and only suggest these improvements in an international public forum as a well wisher in hopes that some devotee leaders somewhere can get the clue and see their value. I would have nothing more to say were it not for some persons who wrongly perceive the value and nature of my suggestions and make arguments against them that might dissuade others from taking them up. You have remained mostly unbiased and thoughtful in your challenges and I appreciate that.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krsna
Bh. Mark, giving you the benefit of doubt that that Leader may be trustworthy and kindly disposed toward others (so called love) and have many, one, or no students in his life does exist and perhaps you have spotted ONE.
Now the questions is, what good is that leader who you are referring to is unable to UNITE us all on account of his limited qualification that restricts his realization of Srila Prabhupada’s VANI making him undeliverable to the other leaders ?
What kind of a credibility that Leader has ? Why that Leader is unable to work with other Leaders ?
What is the use of going in a circle ? I know you do not like answering personal questions. Therefore, you are not going to answer it, any way.
Mind you, I am not against DVD at all, Bh. Mark.
Why I said ” carte Blanche ” based on your writing which read ; ” ……………. how those principles were redefined and expanded on by Prabhupada himself, to include taking intoxication and eating meat. …… ” gave such a strong impact of curiosity as IF I never knew of it.
It is not that I do not give value to your suggestions and make unnecessary arguments against them. That is not my nature.
But the dilemma remains that the leaders of different group are not able to get together by lowering their personal ego of all sort and start cooperating in order to work with each other constructively. Only then perhaps some productive solution can be found to implement DVD as you suggested.
I tried to appeal in one of my article here on this forum to STOP unnecessarily playing blame game amongst the leaders of Jaipur devotees and Akshaya Patra devotee leader to each other by inviting the kind intervention of Shriman MMP of Bangalore temple. I hope it is helpful in that regard.
Problems such as Labha, PRATHISTHA etc. are there amongst the group of Individuals Leaders in Prabhupadanuga world wide. That is the reason they can not cooperate with each other. That is the reason, may be, the DVD is given a little to no importance at all in the projects of different group of Leaders.
I hope some are practising DVD perhaps which I have no confirmation of it.
That is why I said we need a Leader free from all desires who is able to gain the lost ” Love & TRUST ” to UNITE us all. I have repeated this several times in my writings.
I have no clue who is that spotless Leader free from desires presently you are referring to in your message having that quality and ability to which he can stand out and speak for itself in order to unite us all.
Thank you very much for reading.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Amar,
It seems I need to explain my statement more thoroughly. Here is what I wrote.
“That leadership you mention is present in the immediate physical environment of anyone who has heard Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, is following them to the best of their ability, and is capable of recognizing the situation of others and suggesting relevant instruction. Whether or not there is anyone or many ones taking instruction from that realizer is up to the will of Paramatma and the willingness of those ones to be there and be willing. That leader may be trustworthy and kindly disposed toward others (so called love) and have many, one, or no students in their life.
Please note that this is a rhetorical neutral statement of fact based on sastra logic and reason. It is not meant to point to or endorse any one individual. I have one opinion on the matter that informs my preaching. My advise to everyone is to read Srila Prabhupada’s Vani and most specifically to read any direct instructions to his disciples and leaders regarding how to cooperate and manage under his particular DVD orders. This is the only way that each individual devotee can become competent to spot competent leaders and competent followers in their local area.
Once that is accomplished, such devotees may form local groups and gain success. Then they can always reach out to other successful groups they hear of, and seek to gradually create national and international coalitions with the aim of reestablishing Iskcon under a GBC.
There was a time many years ago that I thought another possibility existed, which was for many isolated devotees around North America or even the world to all come to either PV or Alachua and cooperate under the general guidance of the only 2nd initiated Prabhupada loyalist I have ever met in 15 years who already knew top to bottom Srila Prabhupada’s complete DVD paradigm, an experienced street Sankirtana leader from the 70’s, who rejected Iskcon in 78, and had integrity as a man.
But after observing the ritvik loyalists in Alachua I changed my mind. While they may have rejected the Iskcon foolery, they were clueless about DVD. Their eyes glazed over when DVD was mentioned, and could not maintain a consideration of the topic for longer than 5-10 minutes. They each had their own speculation about how to do things, and competed amongst each other subtly, so the most that ever happened was some occasionally got together for a little kirtan and prasadam, talked big talk about big plans, and then went back to work as karmis until those that were able to break away got together a month later for the same thing, with no progressive development.
That was when I realized that they could not recognize the opportunity that was right in front of them because they had not heard Srila Prabhupada’s opinion on the matter, so they kept their own opinions born of speculation based on their subtle desires, and the result was as stated. As RCB mentioned in this discussion here, he witnessed greater intuitive reception and acceptance to DVD preaching from his son’s karmi friends or even just people on the street, which is ironic because they never read Prabhupada, and of course had no loyalty to Prabhupada. It is just that something about DVD rang true. Of course it also rang true with devotees while discussing it, but the problem was they held many misconceptions due to a combination of years of Iskcon brainwashing, and a defense mechanism (once bitten twice shy) to consider any method where they might need to take advice or supervision from any other person.
Thus until they are convinced of it by hearing it from Srila Prabhupada, at their own pace and allowing it to sink in as it will they MUST reject cooperating under DVD to gradually form a community.
I predict devotees in local groups will only begin to cooperate in an organic way by including DVD instructions as they make sense to their efforts by hearing about DVD from the only person they love and trust. Srila Prabhupada. Unless perhaps a current leader like Madhu Pandit who already commands the respect of followers were to himself imbibe the DVD strategy and begin to implement it among them.
Thanks for the consideration.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna
Dear Bh. Mark,
How to ” co-operate and manage ” is very basic simple thing for an Individual or a group of Individual leader yet it becomes so very complex.
Why ? It is because of the fact that as soon as the service of that Individual or a Leader becomes corrupted on account of a personal agenda of some sort, it creates havoc in ones’ family life, Individual life and let alone amongst the group of Individual Leaders as we read it around the globe amongst the Prabhupadanuga groups.
There is no any need to mention the names of those Individual Leaders. It is all open to every one.
As you said ; ” Unless perhaps a current leader like Madhu Pandit who already commands the respect of followers were to himself imbibe the DVD strategy and begin to implement it among them. ”
Well, who is it to say that MMP or Jaipur Devotee group are not following DVD ?
That is why I stress strongly for a potent spotless Leader free from all desires who is able to gain the lost ” Love & TRUST ” in order to UNITE us all.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Amar,
You ask: “Well, who is it to say that MMP or Jaipur Devotee group are not following DVD ?”
As I already pointed out, the person who is qualified to judge clearly and answer that question is anyone who has thoroughly studied Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on the matter.
I have had direct dealings with Bangalore leaders and influential well wishers of theirs. I also am privy to all the same public knowledge of their program as everyone else and have examined it closely. I have also studied Prabhupada’s DVD instructions a little bit as you might be able to tell.
I have given my opinion. They aren’t there yet, and have either misunderstood or ignored a significant portion of it. Only someone who has the qualification stated earlier can judge my opinion as based in fact or fiction.
As for Jaipur, my intuition tells me they are much closer and will be the first to implement on a large scale.
Hare Krsna
Bh. Mark, Thanks very much for your feed back.
As usual your comments are appreciated and well taken.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Hare Krishna to all prabhus !
All glories to our spiritual master Srila Prabhupada
@ B. Mark prabhu, you wrote “As for Jaipur, my intuition tells me they are much closer and will be the first to implement on a large scale.”
Yes, i also feel the same. I have e-mail exchange with HKC Jaipur devotees, they have made their constitution according to DOM. And they fully agree with Prabhupada’s DVD system and working on it very exclusively.
They have Gurukula, Varnashrama COllege, Goshala, Farm lands and most important the dedicated devotees of Srila Prabhupada.
My best wishes with them
your servant
John
Bhakta John (Netherland) :Yes, i also feel the same. I have e-mail exchange with HKC Jaipur devotees, they have made their constitution according to DOM. And they fully agree with Prabhupada’s DVD system and working on it very exclusively.
They have Gurukula, Varnashrama COllege, Goshala, Farm lands and most important the dedicated devotees of Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh: Must say this, I am VERY HIGHLY impressed at HOW Dayalu Nitai and team is attracting to Jaipur HUNDREDS of devotees from Russia, Germany, France, Holland, US, UK. The Anti Ritvik CROOKS should give up ENVY of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada OUR BONAFIDE Diksa Guru wants DOM, DVD, Ritvik System it is a question of DEDICATED devotees who take to heart to make this possible. In Srila Prabhupada’s OWN WORDS: “IF WE STRICTLY TRY TO SERVE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS ORDER, THEN KRSNA WILL GIVE US ALL FACILITIES. THAT IS THE SECRET. ALTHOUGH there was NO POSSIBILITY, I never thought, but I took it little SERIOUSLY by studying a commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura on the Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita the verse vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, in connection with that verse, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his commentary that WE SHOULD TAKE UP THE WORDS FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AS OUR LIFE AND SOUL. WE SHOULD TRY TO CARRY OUT THE INSTRUCTION, THE SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VERY RIGIDLY, WITHOUT CARING FOR OUR PERSONAL BENEFIT OR LOSS.”
691209DB.LA Lectures
So in his life he was akhanda brahmacari. Bhaktivinoda Thakura had many other sons, and he was the fifth son. And some of his other brother also, they did not marry. And my Guru Maharaja, he also did not marry. From the childhood he is strict brahmacari, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja. And he underwent very severe penances for starting this movement, worldwide movement. That was his mission. Bhaktivinoda Thakura wanted do this. He, 1896, Bhaktivinoda Thakura wanted to introduce this Krsna consciousness movement by sending this book, Shree Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, His Life and Precepts. Fortunately, that year was my birth year, and by Krsna’s arrangement, we came in contact. I was born in a different family, my Guru Maharaja was born in a different family. Who knew that I will come to his protection? Who knew that I would come in America? Who knew that you American boys will come to me? These are all Krsna’s arrangement. We cannot understand how things are taking place. In 1936… Today is ninth December, 1938(68). That means thirty-two years ago. In Bombay, I was then doing some business. All of a sudden, perhaps on this date, sometimes between 9 or 10 December. At that time, Guru Maharaja was indisposed little, and he was staying at Jagannatha Puri, on the seashore. So I wrote him letter, “My dear master, your other disciples, brahmacari, sannyasi, they are rendering you direct service. And I am a householder. I cannot live with you, I cannot serve you nicely. So I do not know. How can I serve you?” Simply an idea, I was thinking of serving him, “How can I serve him seriously?” So the reply was dated 13th December, 1936. In that letter he wrote, “My dear such and such, I am very glad to receive your letter. I think you should try to push our movement in English.” That was his writing. “And that will do good to you and to the people who will help you.” That was his instruction. And then in 1936, on the 31st December–that means just after writing this letter a fortnight before his departure–he passed away. But I took that order of my spiritual master very seriously, but I did not think that I’ll have to do such and such thing. I was at that time a householder. But this is the arrangement of Krsna. IF WE STRICTLY TRY TO SERVE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS ORDER, THEN KRSNA WILL GIVE US ALL FACILITIES. THAT IS THE SECRET. Although there was no possibility, I never thought, but I took it little seriously by studying a commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura on the Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita the verse vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, in connection with that verse, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his commentary that we should take up the words from the spiritual master as our life and soul. We should try to carry out the instruction, the specific instruction of the spiritual master, very rigidly, without caring for our personal benefit or loss.
SO I TRIED A LITTLE BIT IN THAT SPIRIT. SO HE HAS GIVEN ME ALL FACILITIES TO SERVE HIM. THINGS HAVE COME TO THIS STAGE, THAT IN THIS OLD AGE I HAVE COME TO YOUR COUNTRY, AND YOU ARE ALSO TAKING THIS MOVEMENT SERIOUSLY, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IT. WE HAVE GOT SOME BOOKS NOW. SO THERE IS LITTLE FOOTHOLD OF THIS MOVEMENT. SO ON THIS OCCASION OF MY SPIRITUAL MASTER’S DEPARTURE, AS I AM TRYING TO EXECUTE HIS WILL, SIMILARLY, I SHALL ALSO REQUEST YOU TO EXECUTE THE SAME ORDER THROUGH MY WILL. I am an old man, I can also pass away at any moment. That is nature’s law. Nobody can check it. So that is not very astonishing, but my appeal to you on this auspicious day of the departure of my Guru Maharaja, that at least to some extent you have understood the essence of Krsna consciousness movement. You should try to push it on. People are suffering for want of this consciousness. As we daily pray about devotees,
Daivi Varnasrama Dharma WHY? What is the ACTUAL NEED for it? The situation is Atomic bombs will be USED some day and WHOLE Cities will be blown-up. The PAPER currency will be USELESS. The petrol will be finished — BULLOCK Carts will be the transport of the FUTURE. Srila Prabhupada is actually letting us into WHAT the future holds for us—- so this is a PREPARATION ground. Awakening? The banks collapse. The Government Failure. So where is the SAFE situation? There is only FARM communities and SIMPLE living left to bring us to our senses.
JSD 2.6 Absolute Love
So, our human civilization is like this. The other day I was reading the World Almanac. It said that within the next hundred years people will be living underground–like rats. SCIENTIFIC ADVANCEMENT HAS CREATED THE ATOMIC BOMB TO KILL MEN, AND WHEN IT WILL BE USED PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO GO UNDERGROUND AND BECOME LIKE RATS. From tiger to rat. That is going to happen; it is nature’s law.
If you defy the laws of your state, you will be put into difficulty. Similarly, if you continue to defy the authority of the Supreme Lord, you will suffer. Again you will become rats. AS SOON AS THE ATOMIC BOMBS EXPLODE, ALL CIVILIZATION ON THE SURFACE OF THE GLOBE WILL BE FINISHED. YOU MAY NOT LIKE TO THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS–YOU MAY REGARD THEM AS VERY UNPALATABLE–BUT THESE ARE THE FACTS. Satyam grhyat priyam grhyan ma priyah satyam apriyam. It is a social convention that if you want to speak the truth you should speak it very palatably. But we are not meant for social convention. We are preachers, servants of God, and we must speak the real truth, whether you like it or not..
720818SB.LA Lectures
People are trying that “We shall be happy by becoming materially advanced.” That is called durasa. That is hope against hope. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum. They do not know that destination of life is to attain Krsna consciousness. No. They do not know. They think, “By increasing motorcars, we shall be happy.” This is called maya. That will not help. THIS MOTORCAR CIVILIZATION WILL BE FINISHED WITHIN ANOTHER HUNDRED YEARS. IT HAS BEGUN, SAY, FOR THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS, AND AFTER A HUNDRED YEARS, WHEN… THE SCIENTISTS SAY THE PETROLEUM WILL BE FINISHED WITHIN FIFTY YEARS OR LIKE THAT, SO, SAY HUNDRED YEARS, THIS MOTORCAR WILL BE FINISHED. So anything we manufacture, the so-called empire, so-called material civilization; it is finished, it will be finished.
760622gc.nv Conversations
Prabhupada: But you are intelligent. Why you are putting the forefather’s words? You avoid it. That means you are cheating people. You do not believe in, but you still write it. That means cheating. Why do you write such things in which you do not believe? That means cheating. Hmm? What do you think? If you write something which you do not believe in, are you not cheating? That means cheating. You take word, you are giving a piece of paper, and it is written there, “one thousand dollars.” That means you are cheating, in the name of God, he will accept you, that’s all. If you say, “No, I don’t want paper. Give me gold dollar,” then you are finished. YOUR CURRENCY WILL BE FINISHED. IMMEDIATELY THERE WILL BE REVOLUTION, THAT “THE GOVERNMENT IS CHEATING US.” ACTUALLY IT IS CHEATING. WHAT IS THE PROOF, VALUE, OF THIS PAPER, LITTLE PAPER? SIMPLY “I PROMISE TO PAY, GOVERNOR AND THIS…” BUT IT IS ON TRUST ONLY: “YES, GOVERNMENT WILL PAY ME.” THEY’LL NEVER PAY, BUT SO LONG THE GOVERNMENT GOES ON, IT WILL GO ON, THAT’S ALL, CHEATING WILL GO ON. AND AS SOON GOVERNMENT FAILS, YOU THROW IN THE STREET, NO ONE WILL CARE FOR IT. IT HAS BEEN PRACTICALLY PROVED IN THE LAST WAR, IN GERMANY. THERE WAS SCARCITY OF FOOD, AND THOSE WHO HAD BUNCH OF CURRENCY NOTES, THEY WENT FOR ONE PIECE OF BREAD, SO MANY THOUSAND MARKS, “GIVE ME.” NOBODY SUPPLIED. SO THE PAPER HAS NO VALUE, BUT IF WE BELIEVE, IT HAS VALUE, THAT’S ALL. Otherwise what is the meaning of this paper, one thousand dollars? So it is a kind of cheating, “We trust in God; we are very good men. You trust in me.”
Dear Bhakta John,
Thank you for that update it is encouraging to hear.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krsna
SB 8.2.30 PURPORT
In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his SENSES LESS POWERFUL. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and SENSUAL ENCOURAGEMENT. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful.
Now, from this WE MAY TAKE THE LESSON that in OUR fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our STRENGTH ENTHUSIASM AND SENSES will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. THE SOLDIERS IN THIS KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT MUST ALWAYS POSSESS PHYSICAL STRENGTH, ENTHUSIASM AND SENSUAL POWER.
To keep themselves fit, **THEY MUST THEREFORE PLACE THEMSELVES** in a normal condition. WHAT CONSTITUTES A NORMAL CONDITION WILL NOT BE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, AND THERE FORE THERE ARE DIVISIONS OF VARNASRAMA—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.
B. Mark: “To keep themselves fit, **THEY MUST THEREFORE PLACE THEMSELVES** in a normal condition. WHAT CONSTITUTES A NORMAL CONDITION WILL NOT BE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, AND THERE FORE THERE ARE DIVISIONS OF VARNASRAMA—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.”
Yes and after so many embarrassing failures by the so called sannyasa fellows, Srila Prabhupada made that point VERY clear before he departed, yet still the ‘waiting list’ increases. We might recall the example Prabhupada gave of the ‘strong’ horses not being able to cross the raging river, yet the ‘young’ horses still think they can succeed.
We have Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana stating in his Govinda Bhasya commentary 111.4. Sutra49, quoting from Chh. Upanisad…
” ‘The day he gets world-weariness, on that day let him wander forth’. The above passage clearly shows that the moment one gets the world-weariness, he should renounce the world. The condition precedent for entering into the order of the Sannyasins is such world-weariness….
….The reason why a man enters into householder life is because he has unexhausted worldly propensities: the reason why he renounces the world is because such proclivities NO LONGER EXIST IN HIM and the world weariness takes place. This is the ONLY CRITERION TO JUDGE WHETHER A PERSON IS READY TO TAKE SANNYASA OR NOT.”
Your insignificant street sweeper.
We are under the three modes of nature Sattva guna(goodness) , Rajo guna(Passion), Tamo guna (Ignorance) as long as we IDENTIFY with the body by eating, sleeping, mating defending for sense gratification we accept another material body. Sannyasa means AUSTERE life to NOT indentify with material body. ISKCON circles they have “Sannyasa” to ORDER / MANIPULATE others and live a LIFE OF LUXURY at the cost of others hence, Srila Prabhupada says: PRACTICALLY NONE OF THE SANNYASIS IN THIS AGE ARE BONA FIDE.
SB 4.19.23 P
PRACTICALLY NONE OF THE SANNYASIS IN THIS AGE ARE BONA FIDE.
Morning Walk
—
February 26, 1976, Mayapura
Prabhupada: …NO MORE DESIRE OF MATERIAL ENJOYMENT HE IS FIT FOR SANNYASA. Anyone who sees: “Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very… A very beautiful woman is very nice,” he should not think of taking sannyasa. Visa-bhaksanad apy asadhu: “Such desires is most abominable, more than taking poison.” To commit suicide by taking poison is most abominable thing, because he’s going to be a ghost. He’ll be punished to become a ghost, those who commit suicide. Or, if one is suddenly killed and he has so many desires, he becomes ghost. Therefore visa-bhaksana, taking poison, and die untimely, is most abominable, or commit suicide. By the material law also, to attempt to commit suicide is criminal. You know that?
Devotees: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is criminal. (Bengali) If you take s annyasa… Just like there are so many sannyasis, for filling up the belly. Wherever you go they give some alms. But in…, outside India, who cares for the sannyasi? Then why you should be eager to take sannyasa and cheat yourself? You cannot cheat others, but you can cheat yourself.
Hrdayananda: Outside India a sannyasi will starve.
Prabhupada: (laughs) SO I DO NOT KNOW WHY OUR DISCIPLES ARE SO ANXIOUS TO TAKE SANNYASA, AT LEAST THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE. EVERYONE COMES: “GIVE ME SANNYASA.” WHAT IS THE IDEA?
Jayapataka: FREEDOM FROM AUTHORITY.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh? Who cares him, for authority.
Jayapataka: NO, THEY, THEY DON’T WANT TO TAKE ORDER AS BRAHMACARI. IF THEY’RE SANNYASI THEY THINK THEY CAN DO AS THEY FEEL.
Gopala Krsna: THEY ALL WANT TO BECOME LEADERS.
Prabhupada: SO WHAT KIND OF LEADER? IF YOU CANNOT LEAD OTHERS, WHAT KIND OF LEADER?
Madhya 3.70
prabhu kahe—-sannyasira bhaksya nahe upakarana
iha khaile kaiche haya indriya varana
SYNONYMS
prabhu kahe–the Lord said; sannyasira–by a sannyasi; bhaksya–to be eaten; nahe–this is not; upakarana–varieties of food; iha–this; khaile–if eating; kaiche–how; haya–there is; indriya–senses; varana–controlling.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, “IT IS NOT PROPER FOR A SANNYASI TO EAT SUCH A VARIETY OF FOODS. IF HE DOES, HOW CAN HE CONTROL HIS SENSES?”
THE WORD UPAKARANA INDICATES A VARIETY OF FOODS, SUCH AS DAL, VEGETABLES AND OTHER VARIETIES OF POSSIBLE DISHES THAT ONE CAN EAT VERY NICELY WITH RICE. IT IS NOT PROPER, HOWEVER, FOR A SANNYASI TO EAT SUCH PALATABLE DISHES. IF HE DID SO, HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CONTROL HIS SENSES. SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU DID NOT ENCOURAGE SANNYASIS TO EAT VERY PALATABLE DISHES, FOR THE WHOLE VAISNAVA CULT IS VAIRAGYA-VIDYA, AS RENOUNCED AS POSSIBLE. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU ALSO ADVISED RAGHUNATHA DASA GOSVAMI NOT TO EAT VERY PALATABLE DISHES, WEAR VERY NICE GARMENTS OR TALK ON MUNDANE SUBJECTS. THESE THINGS ARE ALL PROHIBITED FOR THOSE IN THE RENOUNCED ORDER. A devotee does not accept anything to eat that is not first offered to Krsna. All the rich foods offered to Krsna are given to the grhasthas, the householders. There are many nice things offered to Krsna–garlands, bedsteads, nice ornaments, nice food and even nicely prepared pan, betel nuts–but a humble Vaisnava, thinking his body material and nasty, does not accept such preparations for himself. He thinks that by accepting such things he will offend the lotus feet of the Lord. THOSE WHO ARE SAHAJIYAS CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU MEANT WHEN HE ASKED ADVAITA ACARYA TO BRING TWO SEPARATE LEAVES AND GIVE A SMALL QUANTITY OF THE PRASADA TO HIM.
SB 7.13.1
Sri Narada Muni said: A person able to cultivate spiritual knowledge should renounce all material connections, AND MERELY KEEPING THE BODY INHABITABLE, he should travel from one place to another, passing only one night in each village. In this way, WITHOUT DEPENDENCE IN REGARD TO THE NEEDS OF THE BODY, the sannyasi should TRAVEL ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Bhagavad-gita (6.1) it is said:
anasritah karma-phalam
karyam karma karoti yah
sa sannyasi ca yogi ca
na niragnir na cakriyah
“One who is **unattached to the fruits of his work** and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic, not he who lights no fire and performs no work.”
Note: KARMA-PHALAM means FRUITS of KARMA. In the sannyasa stage he GIVES UP the FRUITS of Karma
anasritah karma-phalam. THIS is WHY there are NO REACTIONS. ISKCON’S ANTI RITVIK CROOKS posing as Sannyasis are SEX-yasis and SIN-Yasis they GET FRUITS of their BAD KARMA. They HAVE TO accept material bodies to SUFFER the RESULTS of their IMPIOUS ACTS of MONEY SCREWING AND SLAVERY MAKING. ALL Money collected in ISKCON was given to the society in Srila Prabhupada’s time before 1977. ALL the disciples so made were Srila Prabhupada’s THIS is WHY there was NO REACTION to Karma. BUT these ANTI RITVIK bunch of CROOKS want MONEY and Disciples. CONSEQUENTLY they are BOUND by KARMA : so SUFFER in NEXT life accept the forms of cats, dogs, monkeys , hogs – ENJOY!
In association with three modes Sattva guna(goodness) , Rajo guna(Passion), Tamo guna (Ignorance) NOBODY GETS AWAY. ALL of us are making progress in the direction of our choosing be it pious or impious the results Karma Phalam FRUITS of KARMA are there. Man is the architect of his fortune AND MISFORTUNE. With results of THAT karma we get our bodies for NEXT life. Srila Prabhupada organised the society that Sannyasis work for the SOCIETY without any KARMA but NOW in ISKCON these pack of wolves, dogs, baboons have USURPED the sannyasa to EXPOIT the Society and SCREW money and MANIPULATE innocent devotees for SLAVERY (disciples). Baboons want to be worshiped AS GOOD AS GOD (Diksa guru). These CONDITIONED SOUL BABOONS can NOT EVEN SEE Krsna and YET they want to TRANSFER Krsna in another’s heart HEART by Diksa. Diksa is NOT SO CHEAP. When Krsna is TRANSFERED in our heart THEN we get to REALISE our svarupa(constitutional form dasya-servant, sakhya-friendship etc). When the soul SEES Krsna he SEES his RELATIONSHIP with Krsna: Self Realization. When you SEE the sun you SEE yourself SIMULTANEOUSLY. This realization of your Svarupa means NO KARMA hence no material body.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Note: when YOU see Krsna in YOUR HEART your SVARUPA (constitutional position) is REALIZED this BURNS your KARMA to ashes. THIS is the Diksa which Srila Prabhupada GIVES US:
Bg 4.37 T Transcendental Knowledge
yathaidhamsi samiddho ‘gnir
bhasmasat kurute ‘rjuna
jnanagnih sarva-karmani
bhasmasat kurute tatha
SYNONYMS
Bg 4.37 S Transcendental Knowledge
yatha–just as; edhamsi–firewood; samiddhah–blazing; agnih–fire; bhasmasat–turns into ashes; kurute–so does; arjuna–O Arjuna; jnana-agnih–the fire of knowledge; sarva-karmani–all reactions to material activities; bhasmasat–to ashes; kurute–it so does; tatha–similarly.
TRANSLATION
As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.
PURPORT
PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF SELF AND SUPERSELF AND OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS COMPARED HEREIN TO FIRE. THIS FIRE NOT ONLY BURNS UP ALL REACTIONS TO IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, BUT ALSO ALL REACTIONS TO PIOUS ACTIVITIES, TURNING THEM TO ASHES. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. WHEN ONE IS IN COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE, ALL REACTIONS, BOTH A PRIORI AND A POSTERIORI, ARE CONSUMED. In the Vedas it is stated, ubhe uhaivaisa ete taraty amrtah sadhv-asadhuni: “One overcomes both the pious and impious interactions of work.”
HDG. Srila Prabhupada sums up who is Sannyasi as described here at this following link ;
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3698
which reads ;
” Sivananda can be given sannyasa, and when I go to Los Angeles, I shall let you know regarding this. I must know who the other boy is and then I can consider his case. Actually, all of you are more than sannyasis. Anyone who has dedicated his life to Krishna, he is sannyasi, yogi, and everything. That is the statement of Bhagavad-gita – one who does not work for his personal benefit is a sannyasi.
It doesn’t matter what is his dress. So all our devotees are more than sannyasis. We are members of Krishna’s family. Our aim is not to become a Mayavadi sannyasi, but to become family members of Krishna’s devotees. Krishna maintains 16,000 families, and if you get a chance to serve in one of the families, then your life is a success.
Real sannyasa means no more interest in material activities, but simply dedicated to Krishna’s service. That is real sannyasa. So you are greater than a sannyasi. You train all these boys to be practical sannyasis in the service of Krishna.”
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
In ISKCON accepting Sannyasa is ticket to the Diksa Guru FRANCHISE (Kali Chela). The BOGUS GBC rubber-stamp them as Sannyasi/ Diksa gurus. This way adopt the DRESS of Sannyasa to make a BUSINESS of hoarding MONEY and Disciples (SLAVES). ALL they want is SCREWING MONEY AND SLAVERY thus live a life of LUXURY at the expense of society. These Kali chelas CHEAT the INNOCENT in the DRESS of devotee. Some of these Kali Chelas also went to Gaudiya Math camp to get the LICENCE to operate as Sannyasi /Diksa guru because the gbc “big boys” wanted to have a monopoly and refused them ISKCON sannyasa “Licence” operation to work in their camp.
Note: Srila Prabhupada exposes ISKCON’S Kali Chelas:
740713mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: Then you can get rid of maya’s tricks. Otherwise, you may dress yourself like anything, but you are simply maya’s servant. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung one… Ei ota kalir chela: “HERE IS ANOTHER DISCIPLE OF KALI.” NAKE TILAKA GALAI MALA. “HE HAS GOT TILAKA ON THE NOSE AND MALA, KANTHI, ALSO.” SAHAJA BHAJANA KACHE MAMU SANGE LANA PARE BHALO: “AND HE’S, HE HAS BECOME A VAISNAVA BY ILLICIT SEX.” THIS IS STATED BY BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA. “HERE IS A KALI’S CHELA. HE HAS DRESSED LIKE A VAISNAVA, BUT HE IS DOING HIS BHAJAN WITH ILLICIT SEX.” Sahaje bhajana kache mamu sange lana pare bhalo. You know? There is a class of sahajiyas?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnavas. Just like, dress like Rupa Gosvami, loincloth, and, but three dozen women behind him.
Bali Mardana: Yes, gopis.
Prabhupada: So Bhaktivinoda Thakura: “Here is a disciple of Kali. He has tilaka and he has kunti and he’s doing this nonsense.” Eita kalir chela. (pause)
Madhya 1.218 The Later Pastimes of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
A MUNDANE PERSON IN THE DRESS OF A VAISNAVA SHOULD NOT BE RESPECTED BUT REJECTED. This is enjoined in the sastra (upeksa). The word upeksa means neglect. One should neglect an envious person. A preacher’s duty is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, make friendships with Vaisnavas, show mercy to the innocent and reject or neglect those who are envious or jealous. THERE ARE MANY JEALOUS PEOPLE IN THE DRESS OF VAISNAVAS IN THIS KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, AND THEY SHOULD BE COMPLETELY NEGLECTED. THERE IS NO NEED TO SERVE A JEALOUS PERSON WHO IS IN THE DRESS OF A VAISNAVA. When Narottama dasa Thakura says chadiya vaisnava seva nistara payeche keba, he is indicating an actual Vaisnava, not an envious or jealous person in the DRESS of a Vaisnava.
Note: the ANTI RITVIK MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUNCH OF CROOKS REFUSE TO ACCEPT SRILA PRABHUPADA: IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Yes, Mahesh Raja Prabhu, you are right about this phony Sannyasi/Guru business. They just want to become ‘Nero’ and become more engrossed in material false prestige (pratistha) and material power, treating their minions like flunky’s and slaves, encouraging them to accumulate wealth for their own ends. After they have ‘fleeced’ the sheep, (just like in the shearing shed) then they give a kick it up the backside, through a chute outside to ‘shiver’ in the cold air, no longer interested in the animal until it grows another ‘coat’ and they steal it again.
The Sannyasa Asrama is even more meaningless in western countries what to speak of India as it smacks of the highest form of hypocrisy, duplicity and cheating, the very things that Srila Prabhupada wanted so much to avoid. This is all about power and control, money and material assets and exists because there are so many fools out there that want to be cheated.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Sudarsana Das Vanacari:The Sannyasa Asrama is even more meaningless in western countries what to speak of India as it smacks of the highest form of hypocrisy, duplicity and cheating, the very things that Srila Prabhupada wanted so much to avoid. This is all about power and control, money and material assets and exists because there are so many fools out there that want to be cheated.
Mahesh: I believe ISKCON “Child Protection Office” is ALSO just another RACKET. They have formed this body to CUSHION the blow to APPEASE THE PUBLIC IF ANYTHING DRASTIC HAPPENS – AGAIN. This body they have created is for PUBLIC SHOW. They want to keep a POLISHED IMAGE as a FRONT for the MEDIA, PUBLIC to show that they are doing something positive.This is ALL PROPAGANDA. In REALITY – it is about PROTECTING THEIR INCOME FROM HINDUS JACKPOT eg Bhaktivedanta Manor HUGH SALARIES. They have done such damage to the Gurukulis FOR YEARS that they HAVE to show the PUBLIC that they are doing something to PROTECT the children. NOBODY with any COMMON-SENSE trusts these ANTI RITVIK MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUNCH OF CROOKS.
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
ISKCON “Child Protection Office” is just HYPOCRISY. Consider this: the Gurukulis cases the ACTUAL Rapist, molestors are ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING BUNCH OF CROOKS SO-CALLED DIKSA GURUS. Why is Bhavananda being PROTECTED in Mayapur? PRACTICALLY everyone KNOWS that he RAPED Gurukulis in the Vrindavan Dhama. WHAT is the actual NEED for Child Protection Office? They have done NOTHING positive! Have they put anyone in Jail? NO! On the contrary they are SHOWING PROOF that THEIR bunch of Anti Ritvik CONDITIONED SOUL BOGUS GURUS ARE EXACTLY WHAT CHILDREN NEED PROTECTION FROM. This is THE ORIGIN of the problem.
71-11-30. Letter: Bahulasva
I AM VERY GLAD THAT YOU ARE CHALLENGING ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED SWAMIS AND GURUS. MY GURU MAHARAJA APPRECIATED DEVOTEES WHO BOLDLY PRESENT OUR VAISNAVA PHILOSOPHY. WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEAT THESE RASCALS AND DRIVE THEM AWAY, SO PLEASE CONTINUE THIS STRONG ATTITUDE.
HOW can there be CHILD Molestation in ISKCON which is supposed to be setting EXAMPLE of behavior to the rest of the world? These EVIL ANTI RITVIK MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUNCH OF CROOKS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE OF GURUKULIS.
Even ORDINARY karmis KNOW how to DEAL with child molesters in a FITTING response:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-fla-father-beats-accused-child-abuser-193806138.html#FARJ4KT
You do NOT need some “Child Protection Office” to put on PROPAGANDA show. You need KSHATRIYA spirit as above to bring VISIBLE LOUD AND CLEAR MESSAGE: ZERO TOLERANCE!
the ‘HOW’, is a lack of Vedic(DVD) culture. why do you NOT see this? You people NEVER have an answer to the problem. you put the same low class people as your leaders again and again and again.
Stupid is as stupid does and there is no why to fix stupid!! Any more than you can change a tigers stripes.
Problem is stupid is in control and you support it!!!
You devotees spend yrs crying crocodile tears with no solutions except to do the same stupid all over again and again.
None of you can chant like Haridas Thakura so you HAVE to follow DVD(Vedic culture) as instructed. That is what kanisthas/madhyams do.
IS-A-CON and the other cults(to include the audience here) DO NOT FOLLOW VEDIC CULTURE
what standards of human life are now followed by devotees that would still ask how it happened? WHY DO YOU NOT KNOW THIS??? where do these standards come from? J-NWO socialist/communism??? I see a nest of snakes in ALL the cults. What do you see Mahesh?
And when you are added to a personal thread(with senior devotees) that would directly challenge these ideas of business as usual management in the rtvik community, why do you remain silent and a coward to respond to Enver or me???
Is the fact that the audience is not controlled/mesmerized by your irrelevant folio dribble, a deterrent?
Raja Caturbahu D Bhakti :And when you are added to a personal thread(with senior devotees) that would directly challenge these ideas of business as usual management in the rtvik community, why do you remain silent and a coward to respond to Enver or me???
Mahesh: AS I STATED BEFORE: IF YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN DAIVI VRANASRAMA DHARMA JUST DO IT! GO OUT THERE AND PROVE YOURSELF.
PROVE IT! THAT YOU HAVE GOT THE KSATRIYA SPIRIT. Simply thumping on your computer keyboard is not going to make you a Ksatriya. Look at the PRACTICAL: FIJI Nityananda Prabhu this KSATRIYA is not YOUR TYPE who sits on HIS BUM all day DREAMING of DVD. Even IN HIS OLD AGE he has got the GUTS to do something SIGNIFICANT. Look at Nityananda Prabhus HISTORY he started THE NEW JAIPUR project in Mississipi, He took ON the GUNDAS exposing them that they were NOT Guru Srila Prabhupada was Diksa Guru for ISKCON. He EXPOSED the Gundas who gave poison to Srila Prabhupada. Can you do ANYTHING POSITIVE that WE ALL CAN LOOK AT? You just have BIG MOUTH. Sitting on your bum all day passing gas and brag seems ALL your ACHIEVEMENT.
Look at new comers like Dayalu Nitai in Jaipur India they have farm Projects and devotees. WHAT have YOU got? SHOW us PROOF what is YOUR achievement in DVD that ALL of us can SEE. Can you do THAT?
Simply BIG TALK DVD DVD DVD bas! Judge a tree by the fruit it bears.
When I stated this:
HOW can there be CHILD Molestation in ISKCON which is supposed to be setting EXAMPLE of behavior to the rest of the world? These EVIL ANTI RITVIK MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUNCH OF CROOKS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE OF GURUKULIS.
IT IS -FOR EXPOSING- THE CROOKS as PER SRILA PRABHUPADA order: SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA.
730503mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) “In the forest a jackal has become king.” They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When… There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making
little bluish. For coloring. That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, “What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?” All, even lion became surprised. “We have not seen this.” “So who are you, sir?” “I AM SENT BY GOD TO RULE OVER YOU.” “OH?” SO THEY BEGAN TO WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, AS LEADER. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, “Wa, wa,” but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to “Wa, wa.” Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense. We can detect that “Here is a jackal.” SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA. NOT ONLY SCIENTIFIC, ALL POLITICAL THINGS, SOCIAL THINGS, EVERYTHING. THEY SHOULD BE ALL KICKED OUT. THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY. THIS SHOULD BE OUR PROGRAM. Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. And so many jackals have been arrested and resigned in your… You know that? Many jackals have been obliged to resign their post in the government.
Please you devotee understand my tone and tenor are that of a loving concerned father. I love those that chant Hare Krsna with all my heart!! Yet I have a duty to do in my service as Kshatriya and that includes chastisement/correction of the citizens to keep them on the VEDIC path.
If the son is mischievous and a rascal then hash talk maybe a necessity at times. I always liked Mahesh, I still do by and large, on average. BUT HE IS MISGUIDED AND MISGUIDING OTHERS. HE IS NOT THE ONLY ONE HERE DOING THIS.
Gentlemen, ladies, followers of Srila Prabhupada, prabhus. I implore you to availe yourselves to these instruction in the simple maner they were given in no uncertain term by Ptabhupada.
The problem from 1970 have always been sudras and less in leadership and sheepl followers oblivious to the instruction in our books and other recorded vani.
In my day I did not have a tape recorder or tapes I could listen to. Nor were ANY of these exstreemly important conversations made availible like you have now. Heck with the push of a key stroke, I finds hundred’s of DVD instruction. Even back in the day, the books were there but who was reading??
SB. 8.2.30 purport….
In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krsna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krsna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.(END)
Do you devotees seriously NOT understand this in conjunction with all the conversation quotes I have made?? You have gundas as leaders because you accept the sinister movement paradigm of cheating the cheated(you).
DVD rids us of these selfish dogs. I would have taken Ramesvara out in 1977 if I was given the chance. But Satsvarupa and the UN-qualified ksatriya pretenders in LA at that time let sinister be as sinister is!!!
I called Madhu Pandita out as a vaisya 15 yrs. HE IS NOT A BRAHMANA AND IS IN BED WITH IS-A-CON AND J-NWO. Inducing children to get poisoned by Bill Gates and his eugenics agenda of mass vaccination. same with the food program. Stictly a money making venture in the vaisya varna do to the conditions of the activity. It does not matter who is doing it, the results are the same. Facilitating government dependence to a captive audience when they should be sent back to the farm and re-taught sustainable methods of self sufficiency. Without corporate/corrupted government intervention, by government decree, to use GMO seeds/highly poisonous additives, the farmer has to re-buy every yrs.
Madhu will build gigantic edifices to his failure, further defacing the Holy dhama. Yet has never produce even one functioning DVD village(at least one square mile[640 acres] 4 divisions, 4 asramas, is what Prabhupada says) anywhere in the world!!
Stupid devotees are star struck idol worshiping fools and a Took as far as I have seen for 40 yrs.
So you still have the same results and corruption
Hence my tone and tenor
Raja Caturbahu d Bhakti
LOL, Nityananda is a viasya-sudra.
Have you ever LIVED with this man?? I did in New Orleans just after Prabhupada visited the farm in 1975. He has zero, as in NONE of the qualities our books use to describe a ksatriya. I could go on butthere is no need.
BG. 18.43
“Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas.”
Resourcefulness has nothing(zip, zero, nada) to do with making money!! Vaisyas do that. Same with the misunderstanding book distribution is not brahminical……..
Devotee (1): Distributing books?
Prabhupada: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaisya, trade. It is a trade. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Krsi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaisya. So vaisya does not require any university degree or any… Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brahmana should be very highly learned scholar. So the brahmanas will give advice to the ksatriya how to rule, and the ksatriya will levy tax, and vaisyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.
Viasya makes money, ksatriya levels tax and rules the society. sudra is labor, brahman gives advice.
As for the so-called challenge of just to it if you are this ksatriya. Again you have the most inept childish retorts of a new bhakta that hasn’t a clue of Vedic culture. Ksatriyas are leaders of men and society as a whole. They step into a social system that is intact. The brahman is the preacher, he will induce following of the Vedic system. Ksatriya leads after the brahman has done his job first.
What ksatriya do YOU follow as YOUR leader??? I dare say NO ONE, you do not follow a ksatriya. You do not even know what a ksatriya does or is.
How about your big big shooting star hero Madha NOT a Pandita?? what did he start from ZERO, poor in exile? NOTHING!!! what wilderness do he come from? the lap of Jaya-potatohead.
shit from shinola that is what. He did not start the temple in Bangalore on his own and alone with no help to manage, no money, no men. He had men and resources dropped in his lap by his guru. Then turned on the hand that feed him only to come full circle and return it all to his REAL guru.
Mahesh says)) Look at new comers like Dayalu Nitai in Jaipur India they have farm Projects and devotees. WHAT have YOU got? SHOW us PROOF what is YOUR achievement in DVD that ALL of us can SEE. Can you do THAT?
Simply BIG TALK DVD DVD DVD bas! Judge a tree by the fruit it bears.
I just love the stupid you embrace! where did the followers come from?? Did he pull them out of his arse?? Did he ‘create’ them out of the nothing? You say he preached? that is great they would follow then. Here no one follows. So I’m at fault?? LOL what stupid did that come from?
India?? India is NOT amerika with it’s easily duped population that would worship a dog as God at the drop of a hat. The big test is in the founding country of the current Hare Krsna movement.
As for proof of varna, been there done that yrs ago.
Until devotees follow and agree to be lead, there will be NO show. Plus when I did have men and resource to manage I did it spectacularly and took the LA temple’s sankirtan numbers to the stratosphere. For yrs latter, my yr of managing the sankirtam department, was the all time high water mark for both books distributed and money collected. Like I say been there and done that.
All your examples are of a group effort and not one man shows on his own in the wilderness of distention. Where do you think Nityananda got his resources?? His yrs in IS-AS-CON. are you really this obtuse/dull minded??
PLUS and this is a big plus. All you cults are doing is spreading the same sinister non Vedic culture that IS-A-CON is. there is no Vedic culture in any of the cults. So as far as I’m concerned, it has to mean they are less than human.
Chanting Hare Krsna is not Vedic culture.
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Indian man: No, he said that “This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned.”
Prabhupāda: But there is something in Japan which is banned. But what you have got in Japan?
Indian man: Nothing.
Yaśodānandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that’s all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan?
Mahesh: THIS is the POINT: “But what PROOF you have got that YOU have done SOMETHING” Have YOU done ANYTHING that you claim to be Ksatriya? Simply thumping on computer keyboard and passing gas – YOUR ACHIEVEMENT?
In the case of:
Nityananda Prabhu
1) he FOUGHT with ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS and showed the WHOLE world that Srila Prabhupada AUTHORISED RITVIK SYSTEM. His evidence is Vedic Vilage Review magazine.
2) He EXPOSED ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS who gave POISON to Srila Prabhupada by producing a Book and EVIDENCE.
3) He started Varnasrama farm Projects – in US and NOW in FIJI
In the case of:
Dayalu Nitai Prabhu
1) He has got farm projects and hundreds of coming from Russia, France, Germany, US, UK coming there
2) He has established Ritvik System there FIRMLY with Ritvik Initiations taking place
In the case of:
Madhu Pandit Prabhu:
1) He and his team have taken on the RItvik System with DETERMINATION. The ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS wanted to buy him out with offering him Guru post BUT he rejected.
2) He and his team has MANY temples with FULL Srila Prabhupada based programs. And distributing of thousands of Srila Prabhupada books and prasadam.
3) He is has taken ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS to Supreme Court.
ALL you have done is criticize the PRABHUPADANUGAS. ACCEPTING THAT THEY ALL HAVE THEIR FAULTS. BUT what is YOUR achievements? SHOW us YOUR Ksatriya ACHIEVEMENTS. But what PROOF you have got that YOU have done SOMETHING.
ALL Raja Caturbahu D Bhakti is doing is TRYING TO PUSH the Ritvik System that Srila Prabhupada AUTHORISED in the BACKGROUND with his ANTI PRABHUPADANUGA rants. When we ask him WHAT IS PROOF OF OWN HIS KSATRIYA ACHIEVEMENTS THEN HE IS EVASIVE.
As Srila Prabhupada states: But what PROOF you have got that YOU have done SOMETHING.
Given that his accusations on Nityananda Prabhu, Dayalu Nitai Prabhu, Madhu Pandit Prabhu have got faults then ATLEAST he should ACCEPT they HAVE GOT SOMETHING. BUT what is Raja Caturbahu D Bhakti’s OWN achievements? Srila Prabhupada makes it a point that “Banned means we HAD something” So going by this we want to KNOW if Raja Caturbahu D Bhakti had ANYTHING himself? Simply Bragging on DVD and DOING NOTHING is a sign of IMPOTENCE not a Ksatriya. Instead of simply passing gas DO SOMETHING to PROVE you ARE a Ksatriya:
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Indian man: No, he said that “This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned.”
Prabhupāda: But there is something in Japan which is banned. But what you have got in Japan?
Indian man: Nothing.
Yaśodānandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that’s all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan?
Further comments should kindly relate respectively to the article “Concocted Ideas – A Reply to Rupanuga dasa”. Thank you.
Your servant
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