By Vidura dasa
If you’ve visited the Sampradaya Sun website recently, you may have also clicked on some of the new Constitution articles from Rocana dasa for ISKCON As It Is. Rocana dasa defines all of this as “an organized effort to create a revival of Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual mission in accordance with his perfect mood and mission.” Rocana dasa begins with an attractive plea:
The society established by His Divine Grace does not in the least resemble what he so eloquently envisioned and instructed in his vast writings and audio recordings. […] The time has come for a more progressive, positive approach based on the realization that most of the aged, entrenched leaders of the GBC/ISKCON are far beyond the point of no return. It is time to start anew. (The Time Has Come – S.S.)
Reading on, however, it seems that the above introduction – promising and hopeful as it may be – spirals down into just another bluff, put frankly. The sentiment is nice but unfortunately the whole Constitution for ISKCON As It Is is based on philosophical conclusions which really do not at all resemble what Srila Prabhupada so eloquently envisioned and instructed for the Krsna Consciousness Movement.
Of utmost importance is coming to grip with the factual position of the Founder-acharya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. There’s no getting around the order from Srila Prabhupada that newly initiated disciples would continue to be considered as his own disciples, with Srila Prabhupada remaining the Diksa guru. Originating from the July 9th Letter, this order is often referred to as the Ritvik Order, because of its appointment not of Diksa gurus but “Ritviks” or officiating priests, who were to perform the initiation ceremonies/formalities on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, with, again, the newly initiated considered disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Not acknowledging this order simply creates dozens of unnecessary issues relating to the approval system of forthcoming gurus in the society, which is so far the main issue facing Rocana’s das’s constitution.
Rocana dasa in his Constitution (1.6.4) rejects this order from Srila Prabhupada as originating outside of our Sampradaya:
Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy and tradition will not be altered to accommodate ideologies of impersonalism, ritvikism, pluralism, feminism, humanism, altruism or empiricism, or similar schools of thought originating outside the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya or outside of genuine Vedic Culture. (ISKCON As It Is – Draft Constitution – S.S.)
Thus, how can any constitution for the Hare Krishna Movement be considered legitimate when a primary order from its Founder-acharya (July 9th Letter) is offensively rejected and discarded as some foreign ideology in the same category as impersonalism? Rather, such a constitution itself must be discarded as originating outside of our Sampradaya – outside of Srila Prabhupada’s institutional directives.
In a later article on the Sampradaya Sun titled Constitutional Issues…Pt 2, Rocana dasa confesses to the inevitable downside to this constitution:
Gurus will cheat. Disciples will make bad choices. It is not much different than a marriage. Some gurus will fool everyone as to their qualifications, then they will falldown and cheat. Others will fool everyone, but manage to not fall down publicly, or get caught.
And Rocana dasa seems content with such a system, as long as “…immediately upon disclosure of a problem, decisive action is taken by the leadership, with full disclosure.”
But this doesn’t sound anything like the ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada describes. Cheating spiritual masters, unfortunate people getting cheated – this was exactly why the Krsna Consciousness Movement was started in the first place – to give society a sure, bullet-proof and bonafide method of returning back to Godhead:
“The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is started for this purpose, so that hundreds of ISKCON centers may give people a chance to hear and chant, to accept the spiritual master and to disassociate themselves from persons who are materially interested, for in this way one can make solid advancement in going back home, back to Godhead.” (SB Purport 4.22.23)
“One may remain situated in his own place or his own occupational duty and still lend his ear to receive the message of the Lord from realized souls. The Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is based on this principle, and we are opening centers all over the world to give everyone a chance to hear the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa in order to go back home, back to Godhead.” (SB Purport 4.24.69)
“This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been started to give an opportunity to all the members of human society, who are misled by foolish leaders. No one can get out of this struggle for existence, which is full of miseries, without accepting a pure devotee of the Lord. The material attempt changes from one position to another, and no one actually gains relief from the struggle for existence. The only resort is the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master, and, through him, the lotus feet of the Lord.” (SB Purport 5.14.1)
“Now, to take such guidance means the spiritual master should also be a very perfect man. Otherwise, how can he guide? .. Therefore one has to select a spiritual master whose order, carrying, you’ll not commit a mistake. You see? Now, suppose if you accept a wrong person as spiritual master, and if you, if he guides you wrongly, then your whole life is spoiled. So one has to accept a spiritual master whose guidance will make his life perfect. That is the relation between spiritual master and disciple. It is not a formality. It is a great responsibility both for the disciple and for the spiritual master.”
Lecture – Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11 — New York, March 2, 1966
We don’t need a new system or constitution by anyone else because we already have a perfect system setup by Srila Prabhupada from the very start. Why should we have to take the huge chance of hearing from a cheater? If this was the case, ISKCON would be useless. Why not just send everyone out into the world for that matter and let them find their own way? Yeah, that way no one could blame the leaders of the institution either. This is a ludicrous proposition, but it is basically what this constitution for ISKCON As It Is asserts.
Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear and simple:
“I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”
Srila Prabhupada radio interview, 12 march 1968, San Francisco
“My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is there always. It may come before your vision or not— the sun is there. But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise, you remain in darkness. The sun is open to everyone. Our Krishna consciousness movement, Krishna, is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you come to the light. If you are unfortunate, you do not. That is your choice.” (Room Conversation — February 12,1975, Mexico City)
Srila Prabhupada warns:
“Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that “This man should be the next acarya.” But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, “Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?” They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point?
(Room Conversation — August 16, 1976, Bombay)
“If everyone just initiates then there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s offering to his spiritual master – Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura (Third Vasistya, 23))
“I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted—my will, my executive(?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it.”
(Room Conversation — October 2, 1977, Vrndavana)
Reporter: What will happen to the movement in the United States when you when you die?
Srila Prabhupada: I will never die
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! (laughter)
Srila Prabhupada: I will live from my books and you will utilise.
(Press Conference, 16/7/75, San Francisco)
Thank Krsna we have Srila Prabhupada, a self-realized soul who we can put 100% faith in and perfect our lives. Nobody should settle for less. Nobody has to.
Man Rocana is really loosing it. I feel sorry for him.
ALL these ANTI RITVIK folks are after is how to SCREW MONEY and EXPLOIT THE INNOCENT FOR FREE SLAVES. History repeats itself.”
System building or organized lying presents its own satisfaction in itself – in other words for people like Rocana dasa who make suffer from issues of inadequacy that are closely associated with his past experiences in ISKCON, which, I imagine were quite humiliating. So in Rocana’s case, while financial profit, etc., may indeed be motivating factors, I believe that in his case that false egoism provides the main driving force behind his desire to eliminate first the Rtviks and now ISKCON. I doubt that he will manage it, but I do admit that this latest stunt in which he tries to take ISKCON away from ISKCON to make it his own took me off guard for although I’ve expected that he would try to take over ISKCON to some degree through his various influences I never imagined that he’d come up with a scheme to take over all of it. Rocana dasa is thus far more imaginative than I usually give him credit as being and far more delusional if he actually thinks that such a hair brained scheme will work.
System building applies to all groups which spring up around the disappearance of an acarya. Once the acarya is gone his spirit does not remain for long. It is eclipsed or edited out of his very own movement by those who are envious and lusty for power. Sooner or later the group becomes simply form, becoming shallow and academic, worshipping petty rules and regulations – This is what Rocaana das’s latest effort seems to be aimed at, under its mask. It lacks bala, or spiritual power and inspiration. It is like a coffin containing the withering remains of his dead devotion.
The value of any transcendent tradition is to be found in its liberating qualities and the ultimate value is to be found in transcendent traditions like Krsna consciousness that go beyond even the offering of liberation, to the restoration of ones loving devotional service to the personality of Godhead. Rocana dasa isn’t offering that, his constitution isn’t offering that and neither is his rag tag assemblage of anyone-who-wants-to can-initiate stool bag of constitutionally approved gurus. That takes a pure devotee of Krsna, an uttama-adhikari mahabhagavata, something that for all of his and his constitutions promises he fails short of offering because he hasn’t got one to offer. The Rtviks they have a system by which once can become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, hard to compete with that and so it is no wonder that while Rocana das will accept kinto his movement anyone who wants to initiate, no matter how unquailed they are that he refuses to accept his own spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. Yes. everyone is welcome to initiate and accept disciples in Rocanas new ISKCON, except Srila Prabhupada.
The use of tradition for tradition’s sake is a perversion and tool of oppression.
George A Smith:The Rtviks they have a system by which once can become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, hard to compete with that and so it is no wonder that while Rocana das will accept kinto his movement anyone who wants to initiate, no matter how unquailed they are that he refuses to accept his own spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. Yes. everyone is welcome to initiate and accept disciples in Rocanas new ISKCON, except Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh: Rocana is ENVIOUS of Srila Prabhupada’s ACARYA position as the ONLY INITIATOR in ISKCON. To be ENVIOUS of the ACARYA will be counter productive:
Adi 1.46 T The Spiritual Masters
acaryam mam vijaniyan
navamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyasuyeta
sarva-deva-mayo guruh
SYNONYMS
acaryam–the spiritual master; mam–Myself; vijaniyat–one should know; na avamanyeta–one should never disrespect; karhicit–at any time; na–never; martya-buddhya–with the idea of his being an ordinary man; asuyeta–one should be envious; sarva-deva–of all demigods; mayah–representative; guruh–the spiritual master.
TRANSLATION
“One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. ONE SHOULD NOT ENVY HIM, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.”
PURPORT
This is a verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Krsna when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. He was specifically instructing how a brahmacari should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.
The spiritual master is also called acarya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science. The Manu-samhita (2.140) explains the duties of an acarya, describing that a bona fide spiritual master accepts charge of disciples, teaches them the Vedic knowledge with all its intricacies, and gives them their second birth. The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upaniti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a sudra. The sacred thread on the body of a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya is a symbol of initiation by the spiritual master; it is worth nothing if worn merely to boast of high parentage. The duty of the spiritual master is to initiate a disciple with the sacred thread ceremony, and after this samskara, or purificatory process, the spiritual master actually begins to teach the disciple about the Vedas. A person born a sudra is not barred from such spiritual initiation, provided he is approved by the spiritual master, who is duly authorized to award a disciple the right to be a brahmana if he finds him perfectly qualified. In the Vayu Purana an acarya is defined as one who knows the import of all Vedic literature, explains the purpose of the Vedas, abides by their rules and regulations, and teaches his disciples to act in the same way.
Only out of His immense compassion does the Personality of Godhead reveal Himself as the spiritual master. Therefore in the dealings of an acarya there are no activities but those of transcendental loving service to the Lord. He is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead. It is worthwhile to take shelter of such a steady devotee, who is called asraya-vigraha, or the manifestation or form of the Lord of whom one must take shelter.
If one poses himself as an acarya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an acarya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real acarya. In fact, however, a bona fide acarya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an acarya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive of transcendental realization.
As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of Sri Krsna, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with Sri Krsna in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their disciples, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.
The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (Sri Krsna). Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly defined that a pure devotee’s observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects. Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. IN ALL THE ANCIENT SCRIPTURES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE AND IN THE MORE RECENT SONGS OF SRILA NAROTTAMA DASA THAKURA, SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA AND OTHER UNALLOYED VAISNAVAS, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALWAYS CONSIDERED EITHER ONE OF THE CONFIDENTIAL ASSOCIATES OF SRIMATI RADHARANI OR A MANIFESTED REPRESENTATION OF SRILA NITYANANDA PRABHU.
SB 6.7.21 P Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
In a song we sing every day, Narottama dasa Thakura says, caksu-dana dila yei, janme janme prabhu sei: the guru gives spiritual insight to the disciple, and therefore the guru should be considered his master, life after life. Under no circumstances should the guru be disrespected, but the demigods, being puffed up by their material possessions, were disrespectful to their guru. Therefore Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) advises, acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit. na martya-buddhyasuyeta: the acarya should always be offered respectful obeisances; ONE SHOULD NEVER ENVY THE ACARYA, CONSIDERING HIM AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING.
Note: Rocana’s ENVIOUS propaganda to reject the Ritvik System of Srila Prabhupada as per his DIRECT ORDER of July 9th 1977 is to mislead others:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Note: Srila Prabhupada made it VERY CLEAR that HE IS THE ONLY THE DIKSA GURU OF ISKCON:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
“You can add thousands of zeros together, one after another, but the value will still be zero. It will never become one. But by the side of zero, if you add a ‘one,’ immediately that becomes ten. Add another zero, immediately you have one hundred. You have increased it ten times. But that ‘one’ must be there — that is ekam brahma, the one Supreme Spirit. Then zero increases in its value. Similarly, this material world is zero. Bad. But if there is Krishna consciousness, then it has value. Then it has value… For something that will be zero. It has begun as zero, and it will end as zero; in the middle they’re busy. Just see. Therefore they’re vimudhan—fools and rascals.”
(Srila Prabhupada morning walk, January 9, 1974, Los Angeles)
Note: The demons want to DENY Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik Order of July 9th 1977 but they do not know that they will FORCIBLY be put in LOWER species of life forms and TRANSMIGRATE from one body to another. From one planet to another and spend MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS years rotting in this material world:
Bg 16.19 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
tan aham dvisatah kruran
samsaresu naradhaman
ksipamy ajasram asubhan
asurisv eva yonisu
SYNONYMS
tan–those; aham–I; dvisatah–envious; kruran–mischievous; samsaresu–into the ocean of material existence; nara-adhaman–the lowest of mankind; ksipami–put; ajasram–innumerable; asubhan–inauspicious; asurisu–demoniac; eva–certainly; yonisu–in the wombs.
TRANSLATION
THOSE WHO ARE ENVIOUS AND MISCHIEVOUS, WHO ARE THE LOWEST AMONG MEN, ARE CAST BY ME INTO THE OCEAN OF MATERIAL EXISTENCE, INTO VARIOUS DEMONIAC SPECIES OF LIFE.
PURPORT
IN THIS VERSE IT IS CLEARLY INDICATED THAT THE PLACING OF A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL SOUL IN A PARTICULAR BODY IS THE PREROGATIVE OF THE SUPREME WILL. THE DEMONIAC PERSON MAY NOT AGREE TO ACCEPT THE SUPREMACY OF THE LORD, AND IT IS A FACT THAT HE MAY ACT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WHIMS, BUT HIS NEXT BIRTH WILL DEPEND UPON THE DECISION OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD AND NOT ON HIMSELF. IN THE SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, THIRD CANTO, IT IS STATED THAT AN INDIVIDUAL SOUL, AFTER HIS DEATH, IS PUT INTO THE WOMB OF A MOTHER WHERE HE GETS A PARTICULAR TYPE OF BODY UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF SUPERIOR POWER. THEREFORE IN THE MATERIAL EXISTENCE WE FIND SO MANY SPECIES OF LIFE–ANIMALS, INSECTS, MEN, AND SO ON. ALL ARE ARRANGED BY THE SUPERIOR POWER. THEY ARE NOT ACCIDENTAL. AS FOR THE DEMONIAC, IT IS CLEARLY SAID HERE THAT THEY ARE PERPETUALLY PUT INTO THE WOMBS OF DEMONS, AND THUS THEY CONTINUE TO BE ENVIOUS, THE LOWEST OF MANKIND. SUCH DEMONIAC SPECIES OF LIFE ARE HELD TO BE ALWAYS FULL OF LUST, ALWAYS VIOLENT AND HATEFUL AND ALWAYS UNCLEAN. THEY ARE JUST LIKE SO MANY BEASTS IN A JUNGLE.
760208SB.MAY Lectures
We have to… Very cautiously and intelligently we have to make progress in spiritual life. Don’t take it very insignificantly. We should be very much careful. OTHERWISE THERE IS FALLDOWN, AND ONCE FALLDOWN MEANS A GAP OF MILLIONS OF YEARS. YOU HAVE GOT THIS HUMAN FORM OF LIFE TO COMPLETE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, BUT IF YOU ARE NOT SERIOUS, THEN AGAIN THE GAP WILL BE MILLIONS OF YEARS.
730806BG.LON Lectures
BECAUSE WE HAVE ALSO COME DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA SOME MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS BEFORE THE CREATION. WE LIVING ENTITIES, WE ARE ETERNAL. EVEN THE CREATION IS ANNIHILATED AFTER MILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF YEARS, THE LIVING ENTITIES, THEY ARE NOT ANNIHILATED. NA HANYATE HANYAMANE SARIRE. THEY REMAIN. SO WHEN THIS WHOLE COSMIC MANIFESTATION WILL BE ANNIHILATED, THE LIVING ENTITIES WILL REMAIN IN THE BODY OF VISNU. THEN WHEN AGAIN ANOTHER CREATION WILL TAKE PLACE, THEY WILL COME OUT AGAIN TO FULFILL THEIR DESIRES. THE REAL DESIRE IS HOW TO GO TO HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD.
SO THIS CHANCE IS GIVEN. SO IF THIS CHANCE IS MISUSED, THIS LIFE, HUMAN FORM OF LIFE, IT IS VERY, VERY RISKY. AGAIN WE WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT THE CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH. AND NOT ONLY THAT, IF WE DO NOT FULFILL THE MISSION OF LIFE, THEN AGAIN THERE WILL BE ANNIHILATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION AND WE WILL HAVE TO STAY WITHIN THE BODY OF VISNU FOR MILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF YEARS. AGAIN WE WILL HAVE TO COME. SO THEREFORE IT IS CALLED ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS “BEFORE THE CREATION.” THIS IS GOING ON
Madhya 19.138 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami
Living entities are described as ananta, or unlimited; nonetheless, they are said to belong to 8,400,000 species. As stated in the Visnu Purana:
jalaja nava-laksani
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyakah
paksinam dasa-laksanam
trimsal-laksani pasavah
catur-laksani manusah
“There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are also 2,000,000 non-moving living entities (sthavara) such as trees and plants. There are also 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and there are 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species.” Some of these species may exist on one planet and not on another, but in any case within all the planets of the universe–and even in the sun–there are living entities. This is the verdict of Vedic literatures.
JSD 4.2 The Bona Fide Spiritual Master
What is the difference between this material world and the spiritual world? The difference is that in the material world you have to change your body, although you are eternal. Ajo nityah sasvato ‘yam purano na hanyate hanyamane sarire. You are not destroyed after the annihilation of your material body, but you transmigrate to another body, which may be one of 8,400,000 forms. Jalaja nava-laksani. There are 900,000 forms in the water, 2,000,000 forms of trees and plants, 1,100,000 forms of insects, 1,000,000 forms of birds, and 3,000,000 forms of beasts. Then you come to this human form of life. NOW IT IS YOUR CHOICE WHETHER TO BE TRANSFERRED AGAIN, BY THE CYCLE OF TRANSMIGRATION, FROM ONE BODY TO ANOTHER IN THE LOWER SPECIES OF LIFE, OR WHETHER TO BE TRANSFERRED TO THE SPIRITUAL SKY–TO THE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL PLANET, KNOWN AS GOLOKA VRNDAVANA. THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE CHANCE OF THIS HUMAN FORM OF BODY TO MAKE YOUR CHOICE. IN THE LOWER SPECIES YOU ARE COMPLETELY UNDER THE CONTROL OF MATERIAL NATURE, BUT WHEN THE MATERIAL NATURE GIVES YOU A CHANCE TO GET THIS HUMAN FORM OF BODY, YOU CAN CHOOSE WHATEVER YOU LIKE.
That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (9.25):
yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti-pitr-vratah
bhutani yanti bhutejya
yanti mad-yajino ‘pi mam
Those who are trying to be elevated to the higher planets–deva-loka, or the planets of the demigods, where the standard of living and the life span are very great–may worship the demigods. Or if you want you may be transferred to the Pitrloka, to the planets of the ghosts, or to the planet where Krsna lives (yanti mad-yajino ‘pi mam). This all depends on your activities. BUT SAMSARA–ROTATING, WANDERING WITHIN THIS MATERIAL WORLD FROM ONE BODY TO ANOTHER OR FROM ONE PLANET TO ANOTHER–IS NOT ADVISED. MATERIAL EXISTENCE IS CALLED SAMSARA. BHUTVA BHUTVA PRALIYATE: YOU TAKE YOUR BIRTH IN SOME FORM OF BODY, YOU LIVE FOR SOME TIME, THEN YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP THIS BODY. THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT ANOTHER BODY, AGAIN LIVE FOR SOME TIME, THEN GIVE UP THAT BODY, AND THEN AGAIN ACCEPT ANOTHER BODY. THIS IS CALLED SAMSARA.
The material world is compared to davanala, a forest fire. As we have experienced, no one goes to the forest to set a fire, but still it takes place. Similarly, no one within this material world wants to be unhappy. Everyone is trying to be very happy, but one is forced to accept unhappiness. In this material world, from time immemorial to the present moment, there have been occasional wars, world wars, even though people have devised various means to stop wars.
“‘There are many liberated souls and perfected souls, but out of all of them he who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is best. The devotees of the Supreme Lord are always calm and quiet, and their perfection is very rarely seen, even in millions of persons.’ Prakāśānanda also quoted another verse (SB 10.4.46) in which it is stated that one’s duration of life, prosperity, fame, religion and the benediction of higher authorities are all lost when one offends a devotee. Prakāśānanda also quoted another verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (7.5.32) which said that all the misgivings of the conditioned soul disappear at the touch of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. However, one cannot touch the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord unless one receives the benediction of the dust of the lotus feet of the Lord’s pure devotee. In other words, one cannot become a pure devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unless he is favored by another pure devotee of the Lord.”
(TLC, Chapter 22)
Note: Anti Ritvik means BUG. They came so close to Srila Prabhupada ONLY to be a BITING BUG by neglecting his Ritvik Order of July 9th 1977. They want to EXPLOIT others. SCREW MONEY and FREE SLAVES:
72-02-20. Letter: Satadhanya
So far personal association with the Guru is concerned, I was only with my Guru Maharaja four or five times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instructions, I have never felt any separation. THERE ARE SOME OF MY GODBROTHERS HERE IN INDIA WHO HAD CONSTANT PERSONAL ASSOCIATION WITH GURU MAHARAJA, BUT WHO ARE NEGLECTING HIS ORDERS. THIS IS JUST LIKE THE BUG WHO IS SITTING ON THE LAP OF THE KING. HE MAY BE VERY PUFFED-UP BY HIS POSITION, BUT ALL HE CAN SUCCEED IN DOING IS BITING THE KING. PERSONAL ASSOCIATION IS NOT SO IMPORTANT AS ASSOCIATION THROUGH SERVICE.
Note:Anti Ritvik Demons want their Vyasa puja: THEY DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPED BY OTHERS, AND DEMAND RESPECTABILITY, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT COMMAND RESPECT:
Bg 16.4 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
dambho darpo ‘bhimanas ca
krodhah parusyam eva ca
ajnanam cabhijatasya
partha sampadam asurim
SYNONYMS
dambhah–pride; darpah–arrogance; abhimanah–conceit; ca–and; krodhah–anger; parusyam–harshness; eva–certainly; ca–and; ajnanam–ignorance; ca–and; abhijatasya–one who is born of; partha–O son of Prtha; sampadam–nature; asurim–demoniac.
TRANSLATION
ARROGANCE, PRIDE, ANGER, CONCEIT, HARSHNESS AND IGNORANCE–these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.
PURPORT
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. THE DEMONIAC WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF RELIGION AND ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. THEY DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPED BY OTHERS, AND DEMAND RESPECTABILITY, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT COMMAND RESPECT. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT SHOULD BE DONE AND WHAT SHOULD NOT BE DONE. THEY DO EVERYTHING WHIMSICALLY, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRE, AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE ANY AUTHORITY. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities.
Rocan das (still “figuring it out”):
“I’m not claiming to be a pure devotee; I’m just sharing what I can, and I don’t claim that what I put out for discussion with my godbrothers is absolutely true… Whether or not devotees in future will embrace what I’m saying and do something substantial, with thousands of devotees cooperating under a banner like the Constitution… I’m not losing sleep wondering if that will happen in my lifetime. Hopefully, our efforts will contribute to the process of figuring it out, and in that mood we share our realizations with other devotees.” (Constitutional Issues: Disciplic Succession)
Srila Prabhupada (firmly situated on the spiritual platform above the mind):
“Actually, mental speculators have been condemned — Mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih — because they are simply carried away by the chariot of the mind. The mind is flickering, always changing. Sankalpa-vikalpa: the mind’s business is to accept something and again reject it. All these mental speculators are doing just that. Somebody’s putting forward some theory, and after a few years he will himself reject it, or somebody else will reject it. So by mental speculation you will remain on the material, changing platform. You cannot get any lasting idea.” (Morning walk, January 1974, L.A.)
Your choice.
“Still figuring it out” means NO REALIZATION! “Still figuring it out” mean ignorance! “Still figuring it out means HE HAS YET TO FIGURE IT OUT! If you do not follow the instruction of Uttama Adhikari Acharya and sole Diksha Guru of ISKCON His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (by his own clear order!) THEN HOW IN THE WORLD ARE YOU GOING TO FIGURE IT OUT? It is not possible!!! How is it possible?
This is why we have to follow Uttama Adhikari Acharya and not a “bag man” of GBC mudha’s (non of which have themselves figured it out either!). Only Srila Prabhupada can be accepted as Diksha Guru because only Uttama Adhikari Acharya can receive the pure unedited, uncontaminated direction from The Supreme Lord Himself (through our Guru Varga of Acharyas).
Personalities like Rocana and GBC HAVE NOTHING TO ADD IN THIS EQUATION BECAUSE WHEN YOU START WITH ZERO! YOU END UP WITH ONLY ZERO! ALL THESE PERSONALITIES CAN DO IS SUBTRACT, SUBTRACT, SUBTRACT FROM THE PERFECT INSTRUCTION OF THE SUPREME LORD SPOKEN THROUGH HIS PURE REPRESENTATIVE, ‘SOLE DIKSHA GURU AND ACHARYA OF ISKCON’ His Divine Grace Paramahamsa, Parivrajikacharya AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada…….NOT speculative mudhas and goofballs who have “yet to figure it out”!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Sri Jiva in his tattva Sandarba sets the example of argueing very strongly against his own postulates before going on to prove them. Rocana just comes up with stuff and foesn;t loose any sleep about what he had created, whether it is lumbering about distroying villages and communities 0 not the mark a a socially responsible man.
That Rocana das is so little caring about the truth is demonstrated by the fallacious reasoning that he employs to ban the Rtviks on one hand from his new ISKCOn, while on the other, his acceptance of any Tom, Dick or Hari intending to initiate irregards to their lack of qualification into it.
Assuming that Rocana das will not simply claim that he is banning the Rtviks simply for personal reasons, or in other words just because he simply does not like them, in order to gain any credibility in the eyes of those whom he means to impress, Rocanas argument would have to go a little something like this:
I The Rtviks are asidh (teach against the conclusions of the revealed scriptures as as told to us by Srila Prabhupada.
T never accept those who are asidhanta into my New Iskcon
Therefore I vever accept the Rtviks
Now lets look at the side that Rocana is trowing the doors of his new ISKCON open wide to:
The gurus that I am accepting into my new movement are asidhantic because the teach against the conclusions of the revealed scriptures as told by Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada told that one must be a pure devotee of the Lord before accepting disciples and yet the kanistha and madhyama level devotees who are initiating are teaching contrary yo this, but Rocana is accepting them all..
Rocana das’s so called devotion to logic is simply just that “so called”. It is his own line of hype that he himself prefers to accept and must accept if he’s ever going to get nowhere fast. Problem is with Rocana is that he doesn’t seem to care about how many people he takes to no where with him.” Since he was such a lousy TP I don;t expect that much to change. Only a matter of time before another batch of unqualified gurus will have taken over the movement and Rocana dasa will be back out in the hall, waiting their pleasure as to what should be done with him, who he can marry, preach to and where even he will be permitted to pass stool.
Haribol
and what not. Rocana dasa isn;t loosing any sleep over letting loose still another ill concieved abomniation on the devotional community.
LW :Rocan das (still “figuring it out”):
“I’m not claiming to be a pure devotee; I’m just sharing what I can, and I don’t claim that what I put out for discussion with my godbrothers is absolutely true… Whether or not devotees in future will embrace what I’m saying and do something substantial, with thousands of devotees cooperating under a banner like the Constitution… I’m not losing sleep wondering if that will happen in my lifetime. Hopefully, our efforts will contribute to the process of figuring it out, and in that mood we share our realizations with other devotees.” (Constitutional Issues: Disciplic Succession)
Mahesh: what this “figuring it out” means is Srila Prabhupada can not give Diksa BECAUSE that would spoil their MONEY SCREWING AND SLAVERY MAKING BUSINESS:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
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Rocana wants to create a DIVERSION from THIS issue: The CORE issue is about THEIR PAYROLL: MONEY SCREWING and SLAVERY MAKING.
Follow the MONEY pattern THEN you have the CRIMINALS. It is about TRACING MONEY. HOW MUCH MONEY ARE THEY GETTING?
In order to GO ON WITH THEIR BUSINESS OF SCREWING MONEY they want to these ANTI RITVIK DEMONS worshiped as good as God (Diksa Guru) by REPLACING Srila Prabhupada THE BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU. THAT is what Rocana’s “figuring it out” ACTUALLY means.
IF A MAN IS A THIEF AND IF PEOPLE ARE WARNED THAT HE IS A THIEF, THAT IS TRUTH.
Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. IF A MAN IS A THIEF AND IF PEOPLE ARE WARNED THAT HE IS A THIEF, THAT IS TRUTH. ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS UNPALATABLE, ONE SHOULD NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT. TRUTHFULNESS DEMANDS THAT THE FACTS BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRUTH.
In UK you have HINDU BILLIONAIRES like:
Anil Agarwal
http://www.forbes.com/profile/anil-agarwal/
Hinduja Brothers:
http://www.forbes.com/profile/hinduja-brothers/
Laksmi Mittal:
http://www.forbes.com/profile/lakshmi-mittal/
So the TRICK is HOW to EXPLOIT these kind of RICH HINDUS. HOW to SCREW money out of them. In order to do this they get the Influential EDUCATED Hindus make them Brahmacaris by HOOKING them up with the bogus CONDITIONED SOUL gbc voted in gurus THEN these are USED to INFLUENCE the RICH men to SCREW MONEY from them. Rocana KNOWS that GBC voted in (rubber-stamped) gurus are NOW EXPOSED sooooo BAD that they have to FIND yet another TRICK to DUPE the innocent. Anti Ritviks want to MAKE IT APPEAR that GBC is not involved in RUBBER-STAMPING process. These Anti Ritvik BUTCHERS want the SAME business of REPLACE the BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU Srila Prabhupada with MORE CONDITIONED SOUL BOGUS GURUS. NOTHING changes. ALL they want is that the public be FOOLED into believing that there are so-called “checks and balances” in their system that gives a glossy picture.
WHY they do NOT want the Ritvik System ordered by Srila Prabhupada as per July 9th 1977? They want to SCREW money and EXPLOIT the Innocent USE them.
They HATE Srila Prabhupada. They are ENVIOUS to Srila Prabhupada’s unique position as Diksa Guru.
Only SUPERFICIALLY they will give LIP SERVICE ” Srila Prabhupada did so much etc etc etc”
Anti Ritvik History:
Anti Ritviks CHANGED Srila Prabhupada Original books, they REFUSE to let the Original books be distributed in the temples or nearby, they REFUSED to obey Srila Prabhupada set up of Direction of Management (1970), they gave POISON to Srila Prabhupada, they REFUSED to obey the Ritvik System as per July 9th 1977 Order, the drove out MANY devotees, they captured TOP posts. BBT 50% for the temple 50% for printing Original Srila Prabhupada books was turned into to BBTi a PRIVATE company with NO authority from Srila Prabhupada.
If the Anti Ritvik CROOKS have the guts let them come here on THIS site if they want to debate us. Our position is CLEAR :
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
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Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
Mahesh Raja Prabhu writes: “They HATE Srila Prabhupada. They are ENVIOUS to Srila Prabhupada’s unique position as Diksa Guru.”
Just see what they are systematically indoctrinating newcomers and the public with in Srila Prabhupada’s very own temples (go to 5:20 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQDzISdS_nE#t=331
LW says:Just see what they are systematically indoctrinating newcomers and the public with in Srila Prabhupada’s very own temples (go to 5:20 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQDzISdS_nE#t=331
Mahesh: Thank-you LW for providing this. We will do an ANALYSIS so that devotees can REFUTE the Con Artists. Interesting – Cid Hunter does not even put his initiated name down. His points are just MANIPULATIVE WORD JUGGLERY to DUPE the innocent. We will PROVE it.
So….Lets analyse his points:
He says Srila Prabhupada is the FOUNDER ACARYA.
Now, THIS is a BIG BLUFF. It is a CON TRICK Srila Prabhupada is not ONLY the “Founder Acarya” BUT he is Founder AND Acarya of International society for Krishna Consciousness.
There is a BIG difference between terms “Founder Acarya” and “Founder-Acarya”
There is HYPHEN between the words Founder AND Acarya. Obviously, what he HOPES is that nobody will take notice.
Srila Prabhupada is not simply Founder Acarya. BUT Founder-Acarya.
So as you can see this is a VERY CUNNING MANIPULATIVE TRICK TO CON THE PUBLIC.
I have covered this point here in detail : http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
1) WHY did Srila Prabhupada ARRANGE to have his OWN murti in ALL the temples in ISKCON for worshiping during Guru Puja UNLESS he was GIVER OF the DIVYA Jnana hrdaya prakasito HE GIVES DIVYA JNANA (DIKSA) ONLY a MAHABHAGAVATA is accepted as Worshipable Diksa Guru as per Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 24.330. Srila Prabhuapada is THE ACARYA of ISKCON.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
2) Srila Prabhupada put it DELIBERATELY in all his books FOUNDER-ACARYA. Srila Prabhupada did NOT say he was only ISKCON founder. There is HYPHEN in between the words Founder AND Acarya which indicates HE IS ALSO ITS CURRENT ACARYA.
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Next, he brings about a 1969 letter to Hamsadutta to PROP-UP his MANIPULATIVE CON TRICK.
So let us analyse it:
Letters : 1969 Correspondence : January : Letter to: Hamsaduta — Los Angeles 3 January, 1969 [Based on the 1st paragraph, we believe that the original letter was incorre : 69-01-02 :
Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination will be held on Lord Caitanya’s Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will be upon Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.
Note: from 1969 to 1977 there was no titles Bhaktivedanta titles awarded to ANYONE. However, in the year 1977 specific. July 9th 1977 there was the Ritvik Order. This means that the Initiation was to be ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada.
The other point is:”So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.” Srila Prabhupada WANTED to ENCOURAGE reading of his books hence the titles.
This initiations performed was FORMALITY of 1st and 2nd: THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is FORMALITY. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Note: “FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport – Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest:
“Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.”
Note: Srila Prabhupada’s program was simple he was allowing JUST THE FORMALITIES of 1st and 2nd Initiations to be CONDUCTED ON HIS BEHALF. That was the projected aim. BUT as Founder AND Acarya he was the GIVER OF DIKSA because BY DEFINITION ONLY MAHA BHAGAVATA CAN TRANSFER KRSNA IN YOUR HEART WHERE YOU GET YOUR TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE REVEALED (SVARUPA). This IS what the Diksa process IS.
BUT what these unholy bunch of Anti Ritvik CROOKS want is ONLY FORMALITY initiations considered. Just throw banana, sesame seeds, in fire BIG THICK SMOKE— and— that’s it! Initiation. This way they CON the innocent. The innocent get hooked-up for SLAVERY to their bogus CONDITIONED soul voted-in “gurus”. Exploitation!
They do NOT want people to know about Krsna TRANSFERRED in Heart and Svarupa REVEALED stage because they want to GET RID of Srila Prabhupada who is the Founder-Acarya who as MAHA-BHAGAVATA TRANSFERS Krsna in your heart so your constitutional position(SVARUPA) is REVEALED.
THAT is Diksa. THIS Diksa process can take MANY MANY MANY LIVES. THIS is WHY we chant TO Srila Prabhupada janme janme prabhu sei Srila Prabhupada is our master.
Note: Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
Both the issues FORMALITY and NOT Formality Diksa have been covered in detail here:
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
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Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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Note: I say it AGAIN, they actually HATE Srila Prabhupada. They are ENVIOUS to Srila Prabhupada’s unique position as Diksa Guru. They do NOT want Srila Prabhupada Ritvik System BECAUSE they want to SCREW MONEY AND EXPLOIT THE INNOCENT BY FREE SLAVERY. THAT is their WHOLE GAME.
Anti Ritvik means they want to GET RID OF/REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru with their MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING DESIGN:
CON MEN / CON ARTISTS:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/conman?q=con+man
Definition of conman in English:
noun
informal
A man who cheats or tricks someone by means of a confidence trick.
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http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/con-artist?q=con+artist
Definition of con artist in English:
noun
informal
A person who cheats or tricks others by persuading them to believe something that is not true
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The Bill of Modern Slavery In UK is on progress in the Parliament. This will interest devotees:
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/modernslavery.html
The Bill of Modern Slavery In UK is on progress in the Parliament.
What does this mean?
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/modernslavery.html
If the Bill is accepted in Parliament then it becomes a LAW. When it becomes a LAW then there will be Implications and enforcement.
NO WIN NO FEE. The lawyers will LOVE this as HUGE POTENTIAL for MONEY to be made from RICH Religious institutions because this SLAVERY MIND CONTROL is MOSTLY in the Religious institutions.
And—-
Rocana’s proposed “Oath of Allegiance” signature to their CONDITIONED soul gurus will IMPLICATE not only the bogus gurus BUT ALSO the ISKCON Institution itself. THEY ARE LINKED. There is ALREADY AMPLE evidence for implication on Internet AND people abused. Lawyers will just LOVE this Rocana’s proposal.It gives them WRITTEN evidence to implicate the ISKCON institution when their CROOK gurus MANIPULATE the lives of devotees and devotees go to these NO WIN NO FEE Lawyers.
Excellent (and quick) analysis, Prabhu. Thank you.
(One small point: Cid Hunter is Siddhanta das, video producer, “Prabhupada Memories” series. The speaker in the “Founder-Acarya” video is Suresvara das.)
Yes, they are so envious of Prabhupada that they just can’t tolerate Srila Prabhupada having all the power. So they are making widespread propaganda to try and bring Prabhupada down to the material platform (their level). These rogues are everywhere. Today we read in the Sampradaya Sun:
Caitanya das: “If any material desires remain one cannot enter the spiritual abode. No point in saying that the previous acaryas will do this operation directly. One requires, as Srila Prabhupada put it, a living guru… as many siksas as you like and need, and one diksa. If we have a system of ‘cop out’, then we open ourselves up to ‘Prabhupada will save you’… sounds like Jesus will save you…”
Srila Prabhupada: “You must follow one acarya, like Christians, they follow Christ, acarya.” (Room Conversation, Melbourne, May 20th, 1975)
Too bad for them – they’ve missed the boat (entirely).
Note: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE this is WHY Srila Prabhupada says he is our father JANME JANME BIRTH AFTER BIRTH. Significant also he says ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, HE IS, BIRTH AFTER BIRTH, HE IS MY FATHER. It is FACT that Srila Prabhupada OPENED our eyes otherwise what do we KNOW of the existence of Vaikuntha(Spiritual world), Goloka(Krsna’s planet), Krsna the SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ,attaining our spiritual form in relationship with Krsna? The Anti Ritvik bogus voted in guru CROOKS know NOTHING give NOTHING.
680815IN.MON Lectures
Devotee: Will you always be our spiritual master?
Prabhupada: I don’t follow. What do you say?
Devotee: Will you be our spiritual master for eternity?
Prabhupada: I think so. (laughs) Whatever we do here, it is for eternity because it is not on the material stages. It is all on the spiritual platform. There is a song by Narottama dasa Thakura, cakhu-dan dilo yei JANME JANME PITA SEI: “ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, HE IS, BIRTH AFTER BIRTH, HE IS MY FATHER.”
Devotee: Oh, that is… Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: CAKHU-DAN DILO YEI. CAKHU-DAN MEANS ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, THAT IS SPIRITUAL MASTER. JANME JANME PITA SEI. JANME JANME MEANS BIRTH AFTER BIRTH, HE IS MY FATHER. All right, distribute prasadam. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Oh, the whole thing? (laughs) All right. Give him. (devotees chanting japa) (break) You are not taking? Take more. Oh, where is Madhavi-lata? Why you are in the back side? Come on, take more. Come here. You are not taking more? Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna. Yes.
76-01-07 Letter: Upendra
As to your question concerning whether relationships between devotees are eternal, the answer is “yes.” This is confirmed by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura: “CAKHUDANA DILO YEI, JANME JANME PRABHU SEI”, HE IS MY LORD BIRTH AFTER BIRTH. In this way you have to understand, by studying carefully the philosophy. We have got so many books now and I want all of my disciples to read them carefully. Soon we shall be instituting Bhakti-sastri examinations and all brahmanas will have to pass. So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, BUT IN THE HUMAN FORM ONE SHOULD AT LEAST UNDERSTAND THE GOAL OF LIFE AND BEGIN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. It is said that the human form is a great boon because it is the most suitable boat for crossing over the nescience ocean. The spiritual master is considered to be the most able captain in that boat, and the information from the scriptures is the favorable wind for floating over the ocean of nescience. The human being who does not take advantage of all these facilities in this life is committing suicide. Therefore one who does not begin Krsna consciousness in the human form of life loses his life to the influence of the illusory energy. Brahma regrets the situation of such a human being.
Caitanya das – who appears to support Rocan’s new Constitution – tells us Srila Prabhupada said one requires a living guru, (though no reference is supplied as to where HDG said this?). What these ‘living guru’ preachers never seem to quote though is Srila Prabhupada’s statements on what is actually guru, and what qualifies one to hold that position.
Here we have just one of many clear instructions from HDG on this issue – Note that the lecture is from 1976. By this time Srila Prabhuada no doubt well understood the mentality of his disciples regarding the guru issue. (Worth also noting is this from Rocan prabhu – the founder of the new Constitution he believes we should all follow, “I’m not claiming to be a pure devotee”.
Srila Prabhupada, “Unless one is situated as pure Vaisnava in his dealings, in his behaviour, inside and outside he should not become a preacher, otherwise it will not become effective. Neither one should hear from such person. Don’t become cheap preacher, cheap guru. So we have to approach a pure Vaisnava as spiritual master” (Lecture March 6th, 1976 Mayapur, India)
To hear from, or to follow Rocan prabhu, (who admits he’s not a pure devotee) is to reject Srila Prabhupada’s clear instruction warning of such folly. It’s one or the other.
I have heard many times that we get what we deserve, and if someone wants to be cheated Krishna will direct them to a cheater guru. But then if others clearly feel Krishna ‘from within the heart’ is warning them against cheater guru’s then the’re often criticized/ostracised for daring to question the purity of said guru’s.
Rocan prabhu indicates that sometimes aspiring disciples make bad choices and choose cheater guru’s. But it may also be true that others make good choices and reject taking a cheater guru.
Surya Narayana das – New Zealand. mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
LW:(One small point: Cid Hunter is Siddhanta das, video producer, “Prabhupada Memories” series. The speaker in the “Founder-Acarya” video is Suresvara das.)
Mahesh: thank-you for pointing this out LW Prabhu. We are getting to know WHO IS WHO and WHERE they stand. I have got the “Memories” and books 3 Volumes.You will be interested to know Siddhanta das ‘s dedication in front of “Memories” books:
Dedicated to
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
I offer my respectful obeisances unto His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, who is very dear to Lord Krishna having taken shelter at his lotus feet.
Our respectful obeisances are unto you.
O spiritual master and servant of Sarasvati Goswami.
You are very kindly teaching the message of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
To the western countries which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now, compare this:
nama om visnu padaya krsna presthaya bhutale
srimate bhaktivedanta swamin iti namine
namaste sarasvate deve gauravani pracarine
nirvisesa sunyavadi pascatya desa tarine
I offer my respectful obeisances unto
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,
who is very dear to Lord Krsna,
having taken shelter at His lotus feet.
Our respectful obeisances are unto you, O spiritual master,
servant of Sarasvati Gosvami. You are kindly preaching the message
of Lord Caitanyadeva and delivering the Western countries,
which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: what struck me was Siddhanta das OMITTED :
You are kindly preaching the message
of Lord Caitanyadeva and delivering the Western countries,
which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
And he inserted:
You are very kindly teaching the message of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
To the western countries which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
So looks like Siddhanta das does NOT accept that Srila Prabhupada is PREACHING the message Lord Caitanyadeva and DELIVERING the Western countries which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
He has INSERTED,”You are very kindly TEACHING the message of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu”.
So—— if Srila Prabhupada is not PREACHING message of Caitanyadeva and DELIVERING the Western countries which are filled with impersonalism and voidism then, WHO is?
Basically, this shows us his lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada. Looks like he is forcing himself to write this dedication BECAUSE he can SELL to get MONEY. That’s all! It is about MONEY.
I do not know if Rocana dasa is envious. I cannot see that deeply into his heart. I do recall however Srila Prabhupada saying that everyone is a little envious. Even if the claim is true then, that Rocana is envious, how shall I feel superior to someone else and look down at them who shares the sane fault as I have. How shall I pass judgement on them when the difference between us is merely proportionate?
Sometimes I think however that our consciousness becomes so polluted with these bad qualities that we mistake our own motivations and cannot see what others see plainly. For instance LW states in the following:
Yes, they are so envious of Prabhupada that they just can’t tolerate Srila Prabhupada having all the power. So they are making widespread propaganda to try and bring Prabhupada down to the material platform (their level” LW
And I have seen Rocana dasa do this while completely oblivious to the fact that he was doing it – and in my next article on Rocana dasa’s DOR I will make it so obvious that unless he pokes out his own eyes, he will see it too.
Srila Prabhupada is our hope for deliverance, one and all. Like the Sun shining over all the world Srila Prabhupada offers Krsna and his words of wisdom and encouragement to everyone, even to the envious, like myself, that we should hear them and hearing them take them to heart so as to take up the difficult task of championing ourselves over our own greatest enemies so that then, one day, we will no longer be envious, but blessed and being so blessed by Krsnas grace and Srila Prabhupadas mercy, be able to pour out their blessings over all.
“In the conditioned stage, one’s conceptions of life are sometimes polluted by passion and ignorance, which are exhibited by attachment, hostility, greed, lamentation, illusion, fear, madness, false prestige, insults, fault-finding, deception, envy, intolerance, passion, bewilderment, hunger and sleep. All of these are enemies. Sometimes one’s conceptions are also polluted by goodness.”
PURPORT
The actual aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead, but there are many hindrances created by the three modes of material nature—sometimes by a combination of rajo-guṇa andtamo-guṇa, the modes of passion and ignorance, and sometimes by the mode of goodness. In the material world, even if one is a philanthropist, a nationalist and a good man according to materialistic estimations, these conceptions of life form a hindrance to spiritual advancement. How much more of a hindrance, then, are hostility, greed, illusion, lamentation and too much attachment to material enjoyment? To progress toward the target of Viṣṇu, which is our real self-interest, one must become very powerful in conquering these various hindrances or enemies. In other words, one should not be attached to being a good man or a bad man in this material world.
In this material world, so-called goodness and badness are the same because they consist of the three modes of material nature. One must transcend this material nature. Even the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies consist of the three modes of material nature. Therefore Kṛṣṇa advisedArjuna:
traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā
nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna
nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho
niryoga-kṣema ātmavān
“The Vedas mainly deal with the subject of the three modes of material nature. Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.” (Bg. 2.45) Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ: if one becomes a very good person—in other words, if one is in the mode of goodness—he may be elevated to the higher planetary systems. Similarly, if one is infected by rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, he may remain in this world or go down to the animal kingdom. But all of these situations are hindrances on the path of spiritual salvation. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says:
brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva
guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja
If one is fortunate enough to transcend all this so-called goodness and badness and come to the platform of devotional service by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and the guru, his life becomes successful. In this regard, one must be very bold so that he can conquer these enemies of Kṛṣṇaconsciousness. Not caring for the good and bad of this material world, one must boldly propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
SB 7 th Canto 43-44
“When brāhmaṇas are free from envy, untruthfulness, unnecessary pride, grudges, disturbance by the opulence of others, and false prestige, their blessings never go in vain. Considering this, Nanda Mahārāja soberly took Kṛṣṇa on his lap and invited such truthful brāhmaṇas to perform a ritualistic ceremony according to the holy hymns of the Sāma Veda, Ṛg Veda and Yajur Veda. Then, while the hymns were being chanted, he bathed the child with water mixed with pure herbs, and after performing a fire ceremony, he sumptuously fed all the brāhmaṇas with first-class grains and other food.”
PURPORT
Nanda Mahārāja was very confident about the qualifications of the brāhmaṇas and their blessings. He was fully confident that simply if the good brāhmaṇas showered their blessings, the child Kṛṣṇa would be happy. The blessings of qualified brāhmaṇas can bring happiness not only to Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but to everyone. Because Kṛṣṇa is self-sufficient, He does not require anyone’s blessings, yet Nanda Mahārāja thought that Kṛṣṇarequired the blessings of the brāhmaṇas. What then is to be said of others? In human society, therefore, there must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇas, who can bestow blessings upon others, namely, upon the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras, so that everyone will be happy. Kṛṣṇatherefore says in Bhagavad-gītā (4.13) that human society must have four social orders (cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ); it is not that everyone should become aśūdra or a vaiśya and human society will prosper. As enunciated in Bhagavad-gītā, there must be a class of brāhmaṇas with qualities like satya (truthfulness), śama (peacefulness), dama(self-control) and titikṣā (tolerance).
Here also, in the Bhāgavatam, Nanda Mahārāja invites qualified brāhmaṇas. There may becaste brāhmaṇas, and we have all respect for them, but their birth in brāhmaṇa families does not mean that they are qualified to bestow blessings upon the other members of human society. This is the verdict of the śāstras. In Kali-yuga, caste brāhmaṇas are accepted as brāhmaṇas.Vipratve sūtram eva hi (Bhāg. 12.2.3): in Kali-yuga, simply by putting on a thread worth twopaise, one becomes a brāhmaṇa. Such brāhmaṇas were not called for by Nanda Mahārāja. As stated by Nārada Muni (Bhāg. 7.11.35), yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktam. The symptoms of abrāhmaṇa are stated in śāstra, and one must be qualified with these symptoms.
The blessings of brāhmaṇas who are not envious, disturbed or puffed up with pride and false prestige and who are fully qualified with truthfulness will be useful. Therefore a class of men must be trained as brāhmaṇas from the very beginning. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (Bhāg. 7.12.1). The word dāntaḥ is very important. Dāntaḥ refers to one who is not envious, disturbing or puffed up with false prestige. With the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are trying to introduce such brāhmaṇas in society. Brāhmaṇas must ultimately be Vaiṣṇavas, and if one is a Vaiṣṇava, he has already acquired the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa.Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (Bg. 18.54). The word brahma-bhūta refers to becoming abrāhmaṇa, or understanding what is Brahman (brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ). One who isbrahma-bhūta is always happy (prasannātmā). Na śocati na kāṅkṣati: he is never disturbed about material necessities. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: he is ready to bestow blessings upon everyone equally. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: [Bg. 18.54] then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. In this age, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura introduced the sacred thread ceremony for hisVaiṣṇava disciples, with the idea that people should understand that when one becomes aVaiṣṇava he has already acquired the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Therefore in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, those who are twice initiated so as to becomebrāhmaṇas must bear in mind their great responsibility to be truthful, control the mind and senses, be tolerant, and so on. Then their life will be successful. It was such brāhmaṇas thatNanda Mahārāja invited to chant the Vedic hymns, not ordinary brāhmaṇas. Verse thirteen distinctly mentions hiṁsā-māna. The word māna refers to false prestige or false pride. Those who were falsely proud, thinking that they were brāhmaṇas because they were born inbrāhmaṇa families, were never invited by Nanda Mahārāja on such occasions.
Verse fourteen mentions pavitrauṣadhi. In any ritualistic ceremony, many herbs and leaves were required. These were known as pavitra-patra. Sometimes there were nimba leaves, sometimes bael leaves, mango leaves, aśvattha leaves or āmalakī leaves. Similarly, there werepañca-gavya, pañca-śasya and pañca-ratna. Although Nanda Mahārāja belonged to thevaiśya community, everything was known to him.
The most important word in these verses is mahā-guṇam, indicating that the brāhmaṇaswere offered very palatable food of exalted quality. Such palatable dishes were generally prepared with two things, namely food grains and milk products. Bhagavad-gītā (18.44) therefore enjoins that human society must give protection to the cows and encourage agriculture (kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāvajam). Simply by expert cooking, hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes can be prepared from agricultural produce and milk products. This is indicated here by the words annaṁ mahā-guṇam. Still today in India, from these two things, namely food grains and milk, hundreds and thousands of varieties of food are prepared, and then they are offered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda. patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati .) Then the prasāda is distributed. Even today in Jagannātha-kṣetra and other big temples, very palatable dishes are offered to the Deity, and prasāda is distributed profusely. Cooked by first-class brāhmaṇas with expert knowledge and then distributed to the public, this prasāda is also a blessing from thebrāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas. There are four kinds of prasāda (catur-vidha). Salty, sweet, sour and pungent tastes are made with different types of spices, and the food is prepared in four divisions, called carvya, cūṣya, lehya and pehya—prasāda that is chewed, prasāda that is licked, prasāda tasted with the tongue, and prasāda that is drunk. Thus there are many varieties of prasāda, prepared very nicely with grains and ghee, offered to the Deity and distributed to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas and then to the general public. This is the way of human society. Killing the cows and spoiling the land will not solve the problem of food. This is not civilization. Uncivilized men living in the jungle and being unqualified to produce food by agriculture and cow protection may eat animals, but a perfect human society advanced in knowledge must learn how to produce first-class food simply by agriculture and protection of cows.
SB 10 7 13-15
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
So today Rocan dasa publishes another article, “Easier Said Than Done.” which starts off:
“This is in response to the continuing inquiries of a number of Sun readers, who have asked various questions about how qualified a diksa guru has to be, and where to find such a person in ISKCON.”
Then after much meandering, he concludes:
“I can honestly say that I haven’t been travelling around the world from matha to matha. I haven’t spent my time and money doing that, searching for qualified diksa gurus. I do what I’m doing… preaching through the Sampradaya Sun and writing, and supporting myself. I have not initiated disciples, but am instead trying to live as simple a life as I can, without distractions. But I do have faith that if such an advanced personality exists, and caitya-guru wishes to give me the blessing of associating with such a devotee, then He’ll arrange it. And hopefully I’ll be capable of surrendering to it [“it”???] when He does. But in the meantime, we have to live our day-do-day lives. Every day, we have to try to find the time and energy, enthusiasm and focus to do what we know, clearly, without any ambiguity or mental agitation, we are supposed to do. We’ve got to do these things for Krsna, for Srila Prabhupada.”
That’s it? He can’t find a qualified diksa-guru, end of story. No Prabhupada, no anybody…. just do your best, you’re on your own. It’s every man for himself. Gee, thanks Rocan. What a guy! All those years of writing and publishing the “Sampradaya Sun” with great fanfare and hooplah, and this is what we get? Another post-dated check? That famous phrase immediately springs to mind: “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
Rocana: And hopefully I’ll be capable of surrendering to it [“it”???] when He does.
LW : That’s it? He can’t find a qualified diksa-guru, end of story. No Prabhupada, no anybody…. just do your best, you’re on your own. It’s every man for himself. Gee, thanks Rocan. What a guy! All those years of writing and publishing the “Sampradaya Sun” with great fanfare and hooplah, and this is what we get? Another post-dated check? That famous phrase immediately springs to mind: “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
Mahesh: this sums up Rocana’s understanding of the Guru Issue: it is called GROPING IN THE DARK.
Mahesh Raja Prabhu: this sums up Rocana’s understanding of the Guru Issue: it is called GROPING IN THE DARK.
Ha ha, “GROPING IN THE DARK” by Mr. BIG BIG TALK himself!
Rocan Prabhu says; “But I do have faith that if such an advanced personality exists, and caitya-guru wishes to give me the blessing of associating with such a devotee, then He’ll arrange it. ”
By the arrangement of caitya-guru many have been blessed with the association of the most advance Vaisnava of the modern day, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada! They get his association every day by following his spiritual program, reading his books, hearing from him through his lectures and bhajans, worshipping the deity of Krishna, and his murti form present in their homes and temples, and preaching on his behalf through book and prasadam distribution. For them there is no waiting, no ‘hoping ‘one day someone will arrive’. For them he’s already here!
Surya Narayana das – NZ mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Rocan das writes: “But I do have faith that if such an advanced personality exists, and caitya-guru wishes to give me the blessing of associating with such a devotee, then He’ll arrange it.”
Rocan das already had Srila Prabhupada’s personal association in the 1970’s, plus he has Prabhupada’s books, lectures, videos and letters at his disposal. But apparently that’s not good enough for him. Instead he’s waiting for “caitya-guru” to arrange a meeting with “an advanced personality” somewhere. And this man is posing as a leader? Maybe he should just drop the act for a while and go wash some pots or sweep the floor for Krishna. Might do him (and his readers) some good. “None are so blind as those who refuse to see.”
George A Smith says:
” I do not know if Rocana dasa is envious. I cannot see that deeply into his heart. I do recall however Srila Prabhupada saying that everyone is a little envious. Even if the claim is true then, that Rocana is envious, how shall I feel superior to someone else and look down at them who shares the sane fault as I have. How shall I pass judgement on them when the difference between us is merely proportionate? ”
From his above noted writing I find this particularly duplicity state of his mind when he says ;
” …who shares the sane fault as I have. .. ”
What kind of a FAULT a SANE personality can have ?
Such personality must have to have the state of his mind of ACCEPTING and REJECTING simultaneously. Then again, how such person can be SANE ?
He has to be INSANE. Isn’t HE ?
Is he not misleading only to himself but to others also ?
The same thing Rocana says in his DUPLICITY writing of the article ; “This is in response to the continuing inquiries of a number of Sun readers, who have asked various questions about how qualified a diksa guru has to be, and where to find such a person in ISKCON.”
Whereas Rocana accepts and states that in his ABOVE mentioned article under discussion which reads as ;
” The opportunity to follow the sadhana program is always there… one can always be stricter, more attentive, more offenseless, regardless of whatever else your mind comes up with as being an impediment, such as not finding a qualified guru, or having an unqualified guru. Given our personal circumstances at this particular point in time, that is not as big a consideration as some other things.
As Caitanya das also recently mentioned, caitya-guru is always there within the heart, and He will surely put you together with a more qualified personality as to serve as your guru, when you’re ready. When you are in that kind of need, it will be satisfied spiritually. ”
So who is more qualified personality than that of Srila Prabhupada HIMSELF and His VANI in which SADHANA program Rocana is mentioning is there ?
Is Rocana not REJECTING the Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as Caitanya das does say in his writing ?
Is that the reason George A Smith says ; ” …….. who shares the sane fault as I have…. ” ?
ARE they ( George and Rocana ) SANE or INSANE ?
DO they ( George and Rocana ) not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?
.
If someone loves Srila Prabhupada, then he wants to accept His order – 9 .July, 1977 .- and he will not become „Guru” and he will not search for a new Guru.
Srila Prabhupada is tri-kala- jna and He knows the changing of the world in the future. Therefore Srila Prabhupada ( Sri Krsna ) prepares His real devotees for the future that the Krishna Consciousness Movement can spread all over the world. This is the Ritvik System.
Rocana: I do what I’m doing… preaching through the Sampradaya Sun and writing, and supporting myself.
Mahesh: “and supporting myself” – that is easy – the bogus GBC pays PLENTY for his Anti Ritvik Propaganda work. Anti Ritvik propaganda is ALL about MONEY screwing:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
Rocana: And hopefully I’ll be capable of surrendering to it [“it”???] when He does.
Mahesh: Rocana was part and parcel of 1986 Guru Reform Committee. So what is the use of hunting for “it” to surrender to when you can have your own factory produced non-realized bogus GBC rubber-stamped voted in “gurus” processed through the Guru Reform Committee? Kosher, no?
After all – he did say, gurus cheat. There is BIG selection of cheaters to choose from: faggot gurus, money screwing gurus, sex-yasi gurus, sin-yasi gurus, get-a-woman-and-run-away-gurus, cover-up gurus, arrogant gurus. ALL mercy of bogus GBC.
Dear Mahesh prabhu,
Please don’t forget the ‘mayavadi hugging’ guroos haha!
Yhs, Bal.
The usual thing for these Anti Ritvik people is they worship CONDITIONED soul’s CARCASS:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/tamal-samadhi.html
Note: ….”in the mode of IGNORANCE, in DARKNESS, worship dead spirits. Sometimes people worship at the tomb of some dead man.”
Bg 17.4 P The Divisions of Faith
Now, it is clearly described here that those who are in the mode of passion worship and create such gods, and those who are in the mode of ignorance, in darkness, worship dead spirits. Sometimes people worship at the tomb of some dead man.
Balaram das Prabhu: Please don’t forget the ‘mayavadi hugging’ guroos haha!
Mahesh: thank-you for reminding Balarama Prabhu – yes! we can include that in Rocanas shopping list for surrendering to “it” in their voted-in CONDITIONED SOUL “gurus” Kosher Checks and Balances factory:
Mayavadi hugging guroos, faggot gurus, money screwing gurus, sex-yasi gurus, sin-yasi gurus, get-a-woman-and-run-away-gurus, cover-up gurus, arrogant gurus,Prabhupada poison giver gurus, Paedophile gurus ALL mercy of bogus GBC
Nearly forgot this one – Pratyatosh’s unchaste woman. The one chasing after Bir Ghost-wami who is their wanabe “sum total of ALL demigods”. I have seen photo she climbed on a table sitting cross-legged and gives the bogus gurus instructions how to play act “as good as God”
Jai! Soooooooooooooo many AS GOOD AS GOD! What an incredible mercy from the bogus GBC!
And—– as the Guru is TRANSPARENT VIA MEDIA – you just can NOT miss these characters they are Sooooo TRANSPARENT that EVERYONE can see RIGHT THRU THEM.
Here’s the math…..
11 ( bogus acharyas ) x zero = zero
230+ ( bogus gurus ) x zero = zero
All together I think you don’t need to be Einstein to figure out that the total (when you add it all up) is LESS than zero (and declining!)
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
“That’s it? He can’t find a qualified diksa-guru, end of story. No Prabhupada, no anybody…. just do your best, you’re on your own. It’s every man for himself. Gee, thanks Rocan. What a guy! All those years of writing and publishing the “Sampradaya Sun” with great fanfare and hooplah, and this is what we get? Another post-dated check? That famous phrase immediately springs to mind: “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
LW
That’s all we needed and it took years of coaxing for us to get the ever cautious Rocana to come out of the closet, so to speak to reveal to the world what has always been this weakest point in his presentation, which is exactly whay you and all the rest of the world bow see, which is that if the Rtviks offer nothing as Rocana and ISKCON now claim that they, Rocana and his fellows offer less than nothing and at least with the Rtviks we are presented with a society with a pure devotee of Krsna as its supreme nominal head, with Rocana and ISKCON we are presented with a Hellish cabal of the delusional and unenlightened posturing themselves as being qualified to lead us when, as it is obvious in Rocanas case, they cannot even lead themselves past their own false prestige to come facw to face with Maya, the ultimate P.T. Barnam whose motto is “Never give a sucker an even break.”
There is a saying that it is better to light one candke than to curse the darkness but we already have one materially maddened and Spiritually blind ISKCOn and have no need of another such as Rocana dasa offers.
Rocana dasa has commented to me that he has some problems with chanting. Perhaps it would help clear his mentality of contamination that deztroys his intelligence if he were to give up writing and concentrate instead upon the chanting of Krsnas Holy names. Otherwise I fear that ultimately he is just going to confuse a lot of people with his posturing and drive himself crazy or crazier as the case may be.
Ys
George A. Smith writes: “Rocana dasa has commented to me that he has some problems with chanting. Perhaps it would help clear his mentality of contamination that deztroys his intelligence if he were to give up writing and concentrate instead upon the chanting of Krsnas Holy names. Otherwise I fear that ultimately he is just going to confuse a lot of people with his posturing and drive himself crazy or crazier as the case may be.”
I think your prediction has already come true. Today Rocan dasa begins his new article, “The Ultimate ‘Guru Test'” with the following paragraph:
“Today we’ll continue to address a topic that is often discussed in the Sun. That is, how do you recognize the level of spiritual advancement your prospective guru is on? Candidates for initiation are, of course, concerned about finding a guru who is on the highest possible level of spiritual advancement, as doing so is a sastric injunction, and this is stated many times by all our Acaryas. Srila Prabhupada often uses the term ‘bona fide Spiritual Master’. So the question on many minds is, how do you really appreciate or understand the level of spiritual advancement anyone is on, let alone your ‘bona fide guru’?”
And he concludes it by saying:
“Srila Prabhupada’s vision for ISKCON was that it would, over time, create millions of bona fide gurus. The agents of Kaliyuga have thwarted the plans of Srila Prabhupada, like many other Sampradaya Acaryas in our succession. Regardless, the sincere practitioners of pure Krsna consciousness can struggle to overcome the obstacles with the assistance of Lord Sri Krsna and his unalloyed representatives. With Krsna’s help and mercy, and the help of many sincere Vaisnavas, one can make significant spiritual advancement. One can go back to home, back to Godhead by making the effort and having the desire.”
But he somehow forgot about the following statement by his own guru, Srila Prabhupada:
“Krishna can easily offer a person material happiness or even liberation, but He does not agree very easily to award a person engagement in His devotional service. Devotional service can in fact be attained only through the mercy of a pure devotee. In the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 19.151) it is said, ‘By the mercy of the spiritual master who is a pure devotee and by the mercy of Krishna one can achieve the platform of devotional service. There is no other way.'” (Nectar of Devotion)
Rocan hasn’t made it very difficult for us to draw our own conclusion on the matter. I hope he takes your advice for his own good and for the good of his readers before he hangs himself completely in public view. (“Give him enough rope and he’ll hang himself.”)
George A Smith says:
Amar
From your post :
” I do not know if Rocana dasa is envious. I cannot see that deeply into his heart. I do recall however Srila Prabhupada saying that everyone is a little envious. Even if the claim is true then, that Rocana is envious, how shall I feel superior to someone else and look down at them who shares the sane fault as I have. How shall I pass judgement on them when the difference between us is merely proportionate? ”
From his above noted writing I find this particularly duplicity state of his mind when he says ;
” …who shares the sane fault as I have. .. ”
What kind of a FAULT a SANE personality can have ?
I am sorry that you did not seem to relish Srila Prabhupadas teachings that i was fortunate enough myself to appreciare a little and was able to post. From the response that I have gotten I am encvouraged to see that most everyone else did appreciatte the nectar of Srila Prabhupadas transcendental words and the wisdom and hope that they encouraged as in the hearts of all of us condutioned souls who do battle each day with so many cases of mistaken identities such as anger and envy.
The fault that all conditioned souls share according to Srila Prabhupada is that all conditioned souls are a little envious. I thought that I had made this sufficiently clear in my post but perhaps I did not and if so my apology.
The point I was tryinmgh to make is that we are all of us beset upon by the same enemies, such as envy, such as lust, there are so many and that Rocana, myself or even you may be overcome at some point in our devotional lives by one or more of these enemies should not be the cause of antipathy for the diseased but of compassion towards them. It is always easier to dispise someone for their defects than to care about them in spite of them, to be impatient rather than tolerant, to be hateful rather than kind, to destroy something or someone or let them drown rather than to try to help them.
Please do not mistake me, my father was demon, his father, his, his and I am my fathers son, there is no doubt of it, only my mother was human being. The temptation to abuse power has been felt by every conditioned soul who has ever held it. Every day it is a battle within me and my deepest darkest fear is that one day the good shall triumph ultimately and then I will be finished.
For whatever else Rocana dasa may be, or you, or anyone else, it is better, for not only me but for each one of us to see each other as all being fallern souls and instead of trying to anihilate one another try to help each other back up onto our feet. I think that this offers us a much better chance than seeing each other as enemies, its better for you, better for me and I believe that it is also what Srila Prabhupada wanted (and Srila Prabhupada inspired love for him, even in the hearts of some demons) and thr only way we’re going top make it, but it isn’t easy, not for me because it isn’t me, its just someone that my Spiritual master A,C, Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada hoped perhaps that one day I might be and someone that my mother would be proud of. All glories to Srila Prabhupada prabhu. Obeisances.
Speaking only for myself, George, I don’t hate Rocan nor am I criticizing him as a person or devotee. He can damn well do and think whatever he likes. That’s none of my business. But when he creates a website called “The Sampradaya Sun” with photos of Srila Prabhupada and then preaches to thousands of people the way he is – diverting them away from Srila Prabhupada and following his instructions — then that'[s just unacceptable. To point that out is not being envious or faultfinding; it’s doing what he himself quotes on his front page:
“According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in such a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.” ~ Bhagavad-Gita As It Is. Ch 10:4
Hope you can dig it.
George A Smith says ; ” I am sorry that you did not seem to relish Srila Prabhupadas teachings that i was fortunate enough myself to appreciare a little and was able to post. From the response that I have gotten I am encvouraged to see that most everyone else did appreciatte the nectar of Srila Prabhupadas transcendental words and the wisdom and hope that they encouraged as in the hearts of all of us condutioned souls who do battle each day with so many cases of mistaken identities such as anger and envy.”
George, it is not that I did not enjoy and relish Srila Prabhupdas teachings which you posted.
Read my answer CAREFULLY which I reproduce here below ;
What kind of a FAULT a SANE personality can have ?
Such personality must have to have the state of his mind of ACCEPTING and REJECTING simultaneously. Then again, how such person can be SANE ?
He has to be INSANE. Isn’t HE ?
Is he not misleading only to himself but to others also ?
The same thing Rocana says in his DUPLICITY writing of the article ; “This is in response to the continuing inquiries of a number of Sun readers, who have asked various questions about how qualified a diksa guru has to be, and where to find such a person in ISKCON.”
Whereas Rocana accepts and states that in his ABOVE mentioned article under discussion which reads as ;
” The opportunity to follow the sadhana program is always there… one can always be stricter, more attentive, more offenseless, regardless of whatever else your mind comes up with as being an impediment, such as not finding a qualified guru, or having an unqualified guru. Given our personal circumstances at this particular point in time, that is not as big a consideration as some other things.
As Caitanya das also recently mentioned, caitya-guru is always there within the heart, and He will surely put you together with a more qualified personality as to serve as your guru, when you’re ready. When you are in that kind of need, it will be satisfied spiritually. ”
So who is more qualified personality than that of Srila Prabhupada HIMSELF and His VANI in which SADHANA program Rocana is mentioning is there ?
Is Rocana not REJECTING the Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as Caitanya das does say in his writing ?
Is that the reason George A Smith says ; ” …….. who shares the sane fault as I have…. ” ?
ARE they ( George and Rocana ) SANE or INSANE ?
DO they ( George and Rocana ) not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?
George answer these direct questions please if you are sincere and honest.
Hare Krsna Amar Puri prabhu,
The only way I can make sense of this ‘sane or insane’ debate is that perhaps the word ‘sane’ in Mr Smith’s quote was meant to be “SAME”, but was accidentally miss-spelled. The sentence would then read as…
“Even if the claim is true then, that Rocana is envious, how shall I feel superior to someone else and look down at them who shares the SAME fault as I have. How shall I pass judgement on them when the difference between us is merely proportionate? ”
Grammatically this makes sense and also agrees with the point that as conditioned souls aspiring to advance in devotional service we are all still affected by the same fault of envy to greater or lesser degrees. Isn’t that the reason, envy of Krsna, that we have fallen to Martya-loka in the first place.
Otherwise ‘sane fault’ just doesn’t make sense to my feeble mind & intelligence. Maybe this can be clarified by Mr Smith if it was a typographical error.
Yhs,
Bal.
Ah, thank you Balaram, not only am I a stupid idiot but I am a blind stupid idiot. The “n” looked like an “m” to me and the word word should have read as :same” not “sane” just as you suspected. I owe you my thanks for explaining this so nicelt and again my apology to Amar, but you were right, had I indeed intended the word to be “sane though I don’t know about duplicitous it would have certainly been complete nonsense, Thank you both for noticing that something was wrong so that the matter could be cleared up but this does bring up to me the point that I am having to much difficulty seeing to continue to write off the cuff on line without adequate review and the visual aides I need to inprove my sight, the devotees deserve better.
LW
You never struck me as being hateful only as being somewhat in a rut for lack of peerage, most probably, .. Those born in this age and who remain as they are born,experience an enormous need for conformance of perception, this makes them generally to cautious to think outside the boxfor fear of loosing the benifit of consensus and developing themselves into independently thoughtful human beings, but as the saying goes “fire acts” and you seem to be drawn to it and with Srila Prabhupadas help and Lord Krsnass mercy :).
Your sensibilities also seem to be right on or in other words, your heart seems to be in the right place and for the record you don’t strike me as being envious either.
OK, my friend George, your apology is well taken keeping in mind that we are all conditioned Jivas full of envy in a higher or lower degree.
But what about the other questions I put forth to you which I reproduce once again for your kind answer ;
The same thing Rocana says in his DUPLICITY writing of the article ; “This is in response to the continuing inquiries of a number of Sun readers, who have asked various questions about how qualified a diksa guru has to be, and where to find such a person in ISKCON.”
Whereas Rocana accepts and states that in his ABOVE mentioned article under discussion which reads as ;
” The opportunity to follow the sadhana program is always there… one can always be stricter, more attentive, more offenseless, regardless of whatever else your mind comes up with as being an impediment, such as not finding a qualified guru, or having an unqualified guru. Given our personal circumstances at this particular point in time, that is not as big a consideration as some other things.
As Caitanya das also recently mentioned, caitya-guru is always there within the heart, and He will surely put you together with a more qualified personality as to serve as your guru, when you’re ready. When you are in that kind of need, it will be satisfied spiritually. ”
So who is more qualified personality than that of Srila Prabhupada HIMSELF and His VANI in which SADHANA program Rocana is mentioning is there ?
Is Rocana not REJECTING the Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as Caitanya das does say in his writing ?
DO George and Rocana not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?
George answer these direct questions please if you are sincere and honest.
Although, according to MATERIAL VISION His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association – by vani and by vapu. Vani means words, and vapu means physical presence. Physicial presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. THEREFORE WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, Bhagavad-gita continues.” CC
Clear and simple to me, Rocana doesn’t dislike the Rtviks because of Srila Prabhupadas words although his dislike of the Rtviks may influence what he thinks of what he reads. Every human being interprets their existence in terms of metaphysical models to which feeling components become attached..over time. A positive experience is compounded by a positive explanation and a negative experience is compounded with a negative explanation. Rocanas negative experiences and the attendent feelings that developed from them were associated with the Rtviks when Hansadutta cane into the picture. Before that Rocana dasa was actually enthused about the Rtviks. There has been other stuff since then. Anyway, if you want to damn Rocana thats between you and your conscience, if you want to win him over thata something that you will need Srila Prabhupadas help with but you’ll have to do a lot of work and make some difficult choices.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH Lord Shri Krishna Chaitnaya, why this man George A Smith who speaks on behalf of Rocana as much as for himself ACCEPTS and REJECTS simultaneously again and again when George answer to the direct question which reads ;
DO George and Rocana not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?
George answers ;
” Clear and simple to me, Rocana doesn’t dislike the Rtviks because of Srila Prabhupadas words although his dislike of the Rtviks may influence what he thinks of what he reads. Every human being interprets their existence in terms of metaphysical models to which feeling components become attached..over time. A positive experience is compounded by a positive explanation and a negative experience is compounded with a negative explanation. Rocanas negative experiences and the attendent feelings that developed from them were associated with the Rtviks when Hansadutta cane into the picture. Before that Rocana dasa was actually enthused about the Rtviks. There has been other stuff since then. ”
Was Rocana dasa actually enthused BEFORE about the Rtviks system of Srila Prabhupada ?
OR
Is Rocana enthused with the OTHER STUFF since he changed his mind that which makes him a follower of the DUPLICITY instead of Srila Prabhupada – VANI ?
DOES George not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?
Please answer clearly if you are sincere and honest person.
Although I don’t doubt there is some sincerity in Rocan, Caitanya das and others drawing up their Constitution, by publicly promoting it they are open to pubic scrutiny.
Rocan prabhu and company appear to back their Constitutional position, (especially their anti-ritvik stance) by saying they follow Srila Prabhupada’s teachings to the letter and so they are the ones who have clear, correct vision.
When buying a car I always advise my son to observe what’s ‘not’ being said in the sellers advertisement as much as what is. I hear from new Iskcon’s Constitution that their guru’s will fall down, but there seems no mention of what happens to the sincere disciple(s) who may want to continue on in their spiritual journey? Will new Iskcon promote and follow the same re-initiation idea that was created by old Iskcon after Prabhupada’s disappearance? (Or will the unlucky disciples simply be driven away, having made a a bad choice?)
The problem any thoughtful prospective follower of the new Iskcon Constitution will have is that Srila Prabhupada appears to have left zero instructions on re-initiation,… so on the one hand Rocan is saying that Iskcon As It Is will be more in-line with Prabhupa’s teachings being grounded solidly on a foundation of Prabhupada’s instruction and guidance, but on the other it would be difficult, if not impossible, for them to explain what Srila Prabhupada’s instructions and guidance on re-initiations are, (possibly because HDG never gave any).
Either the disciple in this new Iskcon whose guru falls down is thrown back into the ocean of birth and death, having wasted their one and only shot, or this new Iskcon promotes re-initiation? This ‘skipping over’ of some important details is very difficult to reconcile in the readers heart given the many quotes from Srila Prabhupada on the qualification of guru, (that he never falls down) and the scarcity of information from HDG on the re-initiation of disciples of fallen guru’s.
I don’t believe a newcomer to Iskcon As It Is would be given the full picture, and that makes me question why some very important details have been left out, seemingly in support of the founding Constitution members agenda?
Surya Narayana das – NZ mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
In reality this word ‘re-initiation’ is a HIGHLY MISLEADING term which is also MEANINGLESS! One can only be ‘initiated’ by accepting bona-fide Acharya, Diksha Guru who as we know is, His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (by his own order). Since Guru can never fall down, how can the bogus concept or false notion of ‘re-initiation’ have any substance? It is a complete misnomer!
The 230+ ‘bogus gurus’ are ALREADY FALLEN SOULS who are NOT AUTHORIZED by Srila Prabhupada so WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO FALL TO, IF THEY ARE ALREADY “FALLEN DOWN”? This is all GBC DOUBLESPEAK BULLSHIT!
They only want to mislead , so they use this term ‘re-initiation’. Some persons I know have been “re-initiated” FOUR TIMES! but in reality they have YET TO RECEIVE DIKSHA! as they are beying cheated again and again and again and again……..That’s All!
Guru does NOT fall down. This has been stated many times by Srila Prabhupada and previous Acharyas!
Cheaters, thieves, whoremongers, parasites, boy buggerers, liars, deviants and pretenders (mendaciously sanctioned by the GBC as “guru”) are already FALLEN!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Where is there even a question of another constitution! What Srila Prabhupada gave is perfect, it’s only those within or without ‘ISKCON’ that would want to rewrite or change for their own agendas, much the same way they want to change not only the translations, but EVEN the Bhaktivedanta purports in his books.
Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd and CURRENT Acarya in the Brahma Madhva Gaudya Sampradaya. As the Founder and Acarya of ISKCON, he delivers the ongoing process of Diksa via his transcendental literatures, which are the spiritual lawbooks for the next 10,000 years. In this age, no other diksa guru required as EVERYTHING comes from Srila Prabhupada, now via his vani. The lineage has not stopped, it is current and will remain so for the remainder of Mahaprabhu’s 10,000 years Golden era.
The formalities of the process, eg name giving, chanting on beads, yajna, gayatri etc, were simply to be carried out by his nominated ritvik representaives on his behalf after his physical departure, as had been done many years prior by senior disciples.
Srila Prabhupada gave very clear instructions in response to Satsvarupa das’ question on initiations after he was no longer physically with us…..
“Regarding initiations Satsvarupa Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada:
“Our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.”
Srila Prabhupada answered: “Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas.”
Tamal K.G.: “Is that called ritvik-acharya?”
Srila Prabhupada replied: “Ritvik yes.”
So it’s either Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON as he constituted , directed and instructed, or the puny attempts by conditioned souls to lay waste to all that he left us.
Who amongst the ‘rubber stamped’ guroo brigade would dare to allow their followers to place them at #33. Probably many still ‘ready to jump’.
Yhs,
Bal.
Dear Balarama prabhu,
very nicely written and indisputable. Thanks for your sane and crystal clear logic.
In all my research so far on this topic, I still haven’t found anyone putting forward an explanation to Srila Prabhupa’s last will and testament, where he says:
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any o( the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director
“IS MY INITIATED DISCIPLE”
following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time.
Have you heard or read anyone juggling this clear instruction to mean anything other than what is self evident?
How can you be Srila Prabhupadas disciple if you are initiated by someone else? The only way you can be his disciple is via the Ritvik system he established in the July 9th letter.
How can any sane or so called ” advanced devotee ” argue this point?
respectfully your friend and servant
Sundar
Yes Sundar prabhu,
I’ve always used the same FACTS as you mention re Srila Prabhupada’s Will and the Executive directors of the India properties, but the cheaters claim that was just a mistake or an oversight…
Srila Prabhupada NEVER made mistakes on these or other important issues affecting Lord Caitanya’s movement… Bhagavada-gita As It Is & Srila Prabhupada As he Spoke and what he Wrote!
mayayapahrta-jnana, whatever knowledge they had (only by Prabhupada’s mercy), is now stolen by illusion!
Yhs,
Bal.
“DO George and Rocana not ACCEPT and REJECT simultaneously Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. ?”
Amar, Srila Prabhupadas mercy unto me has always been recognizable to me as the most wondrous through his vani, which I accept whole heatedly as the words of Krsnas’ pure devotee and this later I do so, not upon the basis of blind faith belief but through both the finding of empiric testing as well as through miraculous instances of his mercy. Do I accept everything that he says as the words of a pure devotee, yes.
Do I accept that everything is in his books? Yes. But do I understand everything in his books or think that everything in his books is meant fot me? No.
Take for instance in the Nectar of Instruction where Srila Prabhupada in his purport says that a kamistha and madhyama level devotee can also initiate but them goes on to say that only an uttama should initiate, these two sayings seem to be contradicory until one understands that the instruction that only an uttama adhikari should initiate is for those who accept Srila Prabhupada and take their authority from him while the permission for a kanistha or madhyama to initiate is granted within the wider body of the tradition which does not accept Srila Prabhupada as their Sampradaya acarya. Those who follow Srila Prabhupada and seek to attain to the highest levels of Bhakti do not therefore have such an option. I could be wrong but that is how I see it.
Srila Prabhupadas books are both sentient and interactive. If you come at them with a desire to use them for self promotion and self agrandizement you will find them to be a very frustrating read while if your approach is that of submissive, relevant and eager inquiry you are in for a very transcendental journey back home, back to Godhead with Srila Prabhupada through his vani with you every step of the way.
Rocana sees what he wabts to see and ignores what he doesnt want to see if you ask me. Such a pity.
George A. Smith says ; : Do I accept everything that he says as the words of a pure devotee, yes.
Do I accept that everything is in his books? Yes.
But do I understand everything in his books or think that everything in his books is meant fot me? No.
Then George continues to say ; ” ………… seem to be contradictory ……….. ” and again he explains the contradiction he had referred to in his comments.
As it appears from his comments which I find the state of his mind in the ACCEPTING and REJECTING SIMULTANEOUSLY IN HIS EVERY COMMENTS WHEN HE WRITES AND EXPLAINS HIS VERY OWN POSITION WITH REGARD TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF RiTVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
George, I ask directly once and for all this simple question ;
Do you accept and subscribe to the Ritvik System of Initiation of Srila Prabhupada or NOT ?
Only Uttama Adhikari Acharya is authorized to ‘turn tradition on it’s head’. To hell with “tradition” that speaks of ignoring and defying the words of the Acharya. This is only the ‘narrow’ philosophy of fools and rascals, smartas and neophites! Practically all of Srila Prabhupada’s predecessors ‘flew in the face of tradition’ especially the Lord Himself, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu what to speak of many others.
The order of the ‘CURRENT ACHARYA’ (His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) IS ‘THE OVERRIDING PRINCIPAL’ in all respects AND IS SANCTIONED BY ALL THE PREVIOUS ACHARYAS IN OUR GURU PARAMPARA ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME LORD HIMSELF!
One who defies the order of Srila Prabhupada ‘IS DOOMED’ and becomes a shell! His/Her spiritual existance is CHECKED!, STIFLED!, FINISHED!
In a World of fools and rascals the “tradition” (of the majority of unfortunate souls) is to NOT follow the instructions of the Acharya and by utilising the MYTH of “tradition” The Supreme Lord Sri Krishna allows the pretenders and cheaters the means to do this!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Tradition Argument
The Anti Ritvik “Tradition” argument is just a SMOKE SCREEN to SCREW MONEY and EXPLOIT innocent devotees into SLAVERY (FREE SUBSERVIENT SERVANTS) for the MANIPULATIVE GOONS (so called diksa gurus rubber stamped in ISKCON) to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada the BONAFIDE Diksa Guru:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2459.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The “Tradition” argument does NOT hold. Srila Prabhupada did many things against the so called Tradition:
1) Traditionally – no Westerners were given Initiation.
2) Traditionally – no Westerners were given Sannyasa.
3) Traditionally – no Acaryas went out of India to Preach.
4) Traditionally – no Tape of Gayatri mantra was used.
5) Traditionally – Ramanvami fast in India is observed till 12.00pm AFTERNOON.
Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
TRADITION
Note: it is VERY interesting that Srila Prabhupada has told us to fast till evening/sunset like Ekadasi. Lord Ramacandra appeared NOON time — so ALL the Hindus fast till 12.00pm — AFTERNOON. Now,—- THIS makes Hare Krsna Prabhupadanugas DIFFERENT from Hindus. This is an example that Srila Prabhupada did NOT compromise with the Hindus traditions. Sometimes this Anti Ritvik CROOKS say, “Blah …Blah…. Blah..but…Ritvik there is no tradition.You are not following the traditions” BUT the FACT is—- we are NOT following some blind traditions. We follow PARAMPARA:
JUNG.SYA Carl Gustav Jung Philosophy
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called tradition. That is called tradition. BUT THAT IS NOT PARAMPARA. PARAMPARA IS DIFFERENT. PARAMPARA MEANS WE GET THE RIGHT KNOWLEDGE FROM THE SUPREME.
710407LE.BOM Lectures
So this process should be adopted, how to become sukrtina. Sukrti means yajna-dana-tapa-kriya. One must perform sacrifices as prescribed in the sastras, and they must give in charity their hard-earned money for Krsna’s cause. That is called dana. Yajna, dana, and tapasya. Tapasya. JUST LIKE TOMORROW IS SRI RAMA-NAVAMI. THE TAPASYA WILL BE THAT ALL THE DEVOTEES WILL OBSERVE FASTING FROM MORNING TILL EVENING. THIS IS CALLED TAPASYA. JUST LIKE EKADASI DAY–THERE IS NO EATING SUMPTUOUSLY. SIMPLY YOU TAKE LITTLE FRUITS AND FLOWERS. TRY TO AVOID THAT ALSO. YOU DON’T TAKE EVEN WATER. THAT IS REALLY EKADASI. But because we cannot do it–in the Kali-yuga the time is different–therefore we are allowed to take little fruit and milk, which is called anukalpa. These are different methods of tapasya. And yajna. This yajna, sankirtanaih prayair yajnaih, yajanti hi su-medhasah. In this age you cannot perform that big asvamedha yajna, gomedha yajna, rajasuya yajna, so many other yajnas. It is not possible. First of all, you have no means to perform such yajnas, hundreds and hundreds of tons ghee required for putting into the sacrificial fire. You have not even a drop of your ghee. So forget all those yajnas. In this age, yajnaih sankirtanaih prayaih. That is recommended in the sastra:
krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam
sangopangastra-parsadam
yajnaih sankirtanaih prayair
yajanti hi su-medhasah
So these are pious activities, to perform yajna and to give in charity, yajna, dana and tapasya, accepting voluntarily austerity. That will make you sukrtina. And if you actually become sukrtina, then you’ll be inclined. Because the dirty things will be cleansed by these pious activities, then you will understand. Just like when the sky is cleared of all clouds you can see the sunshine very brilliantly, similarly, you can see Krsna and God very brilliantly as soon as the cloud accumulated in your heart of all dirty things is cleansed. The process of cleansing in this age is this sankirtana yajna. This sankirtana movement is not unauthorized. It is authorized by the sastras. And because they are being properly performed, it is taking effect all over the world.
760211mw.may Conversations
Prabhupada: So today, ekadasi as usual, the Varaha-dvadasi will be also observed and tomorrow breakfast.
Tamala Krsna: Breakfast. Fast? No.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Fasting tomorrow or…
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: Regular…
Prabhupada: Simply worshiping Varahadeva. Kesava dhrta-sukara-rupa, jaya jagadisa hare. That take.
Jayapataka: Between 8:50 and 10:00 we should break the fast.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called parayana?
Prabhupada: Eh? Parayana.
Hrdayananda: There’s a very famous lecture you gave, Srila Prabhupada, one day on a Varaha-dvadasi, where you sang Jaya Jagadisa and then you explained it. A very wonderful lecture.
Jayapataka: AND THE DAY AFTER IS NITYANANDA’S AVIRBHAVA.
Prabhupada: OH, THEN HALF-DAY FASTING.
Tamala Krsna: Wow.
Hrdayananda: Auspicious alignment.
Tamala Krsna: (break) …on your appearance day and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s and Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Gaura Kisora’s we should observe half-day fast. I have a question that on all the other auspicious days, just like Narottama dasa Thakura and others, should we also observe half-day fast?
Prabhupada: IT IS… BUT IF YOU CANNOT, THAT IS ANOTHER…
Tamala Krsna: Sometimes because of the sankirtana…
Prabhupada: No, no. If you cannot, you can take.
Tamala Krsna: And just sing some songs and praise.
Prabhupada: YES. YES. KIRTANA IS MAIN THING.
Tamala Krsna: And if possible, then the fasting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: I see. (break) …is up till sun…
Prabhupada: UP TILL SUNSET. LORD RAMACANDRA.
Tamala Krsna: Also. And Srimati Radharani?
Prabhupada: Half.
Tamala Krsna: Half day. (break)
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Tamala Krsna: What kind of fast is that?
Prabhupada: BALARAMA? HALF DAY. It is fifteen days before Janmastami.
Tamala Krsna: We should always chant twenty-five rounds on ekadasi if initiated.
Prabhupada: Initiated? Everyone. Why initiated?
Tamala Krsna: So that should be standard for our movement on ekadasi day?
Prabhupada: Standard is sixteen, but if one can chant more, then he is welcome.
Tamala Krsna: It’s not mandatory for ekadasi.
Jayapataka: Recommended.
Prabhupada: NO. EKADASI MEANS THAT, FASTING AND CHANTING.
Tamala Krsna: Sometimes I’m wondering, because our men have to go out on book distribution.
Prabhupada: NO, NO. THAT IS ALSO PREACHING WORK. FOR THAT PURPOSE YOU CAN STOP THIS, BUT GENERALLY, ONE WHO HAS NO PREACHING WORK, HE CAN CHANT.
Tamala Krsna: Extra.
Prabhupada: Extra.
Tamala Krsna: I see. (end)
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“No. Tradition, religion–they are all material. They are also all designation.” (Conv., March 13, 1975)
“Our only tradition is how to satisfy Vishnu.” (Lecture, July 30, 1973)
AN ACARYA WHO COMES FOR THE SERVICE OF THE LORD CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO CONFORM TO A STEREOTYPE
Sometimes the bogus gbc self made guru supporters argue Ritvik system is not in our tradition.
750213rc.mex Conversations
Prabhupada: THAT TRADITION IS NOTHING. TRADITION IS JUST TEMPORARY. YOU MAKE YOUR TRADITION; HE MAKES YOUR TRADITION. That is another thing. But the, fact is fact. That is not dependent on tradition. TRADITION WE CAN MAKE, TRADITION. “WE BELIEVE.” JUST LIKE SOMEBODY SAYS, “WE BELIEVE.” WHAT IS THE USE OF SUCH SAYING, “WE BELIEVE”? YOU MAY BELIEVE SOMETHING WHICH IS NOT FACT.
JUNG.SYA Carl Gustav Jung Philosophy
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called tradition. That is called tradition. BUT THAT IS NOT PARAMPARA. PARAMPARA IS DIFFERENT. PARAMPARA MEANS WE GET THE RIGHT KNOWLEDGE FROM THE SUPREME. It is not something ac…, what is called? What he is speaking?
Syamasundara: Acquired. Archetypal. Means the original type.
Prabhupada: My acquired knowledge can be changed by understanding from superior. Just like generally we have got bodily concept of life, but Krsna says, “No. You are not this body.” SO THIS KNOWLEDGE IS NOT COMING TO ME FROM TRADITION, BUT I LEARN IT FROM GREAT AUTHORITIES LIKE KRSNA.
(Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)
“Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. THEREFORE, THE METHOD OF ONE ACARYA MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN THAT OF ANOTHER, BUT THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS NEVER NEGLECTED.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)
“AN ACARYA WHO COMES FOR THE SERVICE OF THE LORD CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO CONFORM TO A STEREOTYPE, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)
1st and 2nd initiation are FORMALITIES:
761016iv.cha Conversations
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is FORMALITY. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)
“Srimad Viraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The FORMALITIES may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
Srila Prabhupada had put in force the July 9th 1977 Ritvik Initiation which are FORMALITIES. So FORMALITES of Initiation of 1st and 2nd Initiation did NOT require Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence and the devotees were even INITIATED under his instruction by RITVIKS. This was UNPRECEDENTED . There was NO authority given by Srila Prabhupada to discontinue the Ritvik System. FACT!
69-10-31. Letter: Dinesh
REGARDING THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION COMING FROM ARJUNA, DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN THAT ONE HAS TO BE INITIATED OFFICIALLY. DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION MEANS TO ACCEPT THE DISCIPLIC CONCLUSION. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
IN MY books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
73-12-25.Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR ANY OUTSIDE INSTRUCTION.
Note: The argument that Ritvik system has no tradition is LAME EXCUSE – In Kali Yuga it is Pancaratrika-vidhi. Other Yugas have did NOT have Pancaratrika-vidhi.
721027ND.VRN Lecture
So we are trying to follow Sanatana Gosvami. By diksa-vidhanena, by imitating persons any, from anywhere. It does not matter. Because in this age, Kali-yuga, the diksa-vidhana is performed according, according to Pancaratrika-vidhi. Not Vaidika-vidhi. Vaidika-vidhi is very strict. Unless one is bona fide son of a dvija, the initiation was not given. To the sudras, there was no initiation. A brahmana ksatriya, vaisya. So these are the Vedic process. SO IN THE KALI-YUGA, BECAUSE IT IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT EVERYONE IS A SUDRA, THEREFORE VAIDIKA-VIDHANA CANNOT BE APPLIED. VAIDIKA-VIDHANA REQUIRES THAT ONE MUST BE BORN BY A BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA. THEN HE’S ELIGIBLE FOR BEING INITIATED. BUT IN THE KALI-YUGA, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED.
680724IN.MON Lecture
sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratriki vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate
This is the definition given by Srila Rupa Gosvami, that to become a devotee of the Lord, Krsna, one has to follow the principles of sruti and smrti, and pancaratriki-vidhi. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, there is no Vedic vidhi. Because Vedic vidhi is lost. Formerly, initiation was offered to a person who is actually born of a brahmana father. Otherwise… Or the higher caste, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, and the vaisyas, they were offered initiation, and the sudras were not offered. That was the Vedic system. But in this age the sastra says that kalau sudra sambhava. IN THIS AGE OF KALI PRACTICALLY THERE IS NO MORE ANY BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, OR VAISYA. MAYBE BY NAME, BUT IN QUALIFICATION THEY ARE NOT EXISTING. EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SUDRA. SO IN KALI-YUGA THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED. The pancaratriki-vidhi is also Vedic vidhi, corollary, given by Narada Mahamuni. But it is accepted by the Vedic followers, pancaratriki-vidhi.
Pancaratriki-vidhi means if any one has a little inclination for spiritual development, he should be given chance. This initiation means to give chance. The Bhagavata says that kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah. These are the list of the candalas or less than the sudras. So Bhagavata gives open road for everyone. Even one is kirata… Kirata means… Generally they are called aborigines, or the very black aborigines living in the jungles, they are called kirata.
Note: Traditions that Srila Prabhupada DISCARDED :
68-03-26 Letter: Mukunda
I am very glad that you are repentant even for some action which is not sanctioned by me. This attitude is very nice and improves one in progressing on the path of devotional service. The Rakhi Bandhan ceremony observed by you under instruction of Prasad isn’t approved by our Vaisnava rituals. Of course, such ceremony is observed among the Hindu community as a socio-religious convention. BUT IN OUR VAISNAVA COMMUNITY THERE IS NO SUCH OBSERVANCE. Now, forget the incidence, and in future don’t be misled by some unauthorized person.
Note: also that during the Diwali there is Hindu tradition of fire crackers – we do not take part.
During Holi festival Hindus celebrate by colour throwing tradition – we do not take part.
So traditions are not the real issue—at all.
Anti Ritviks want to somehow JUSTIFY THEIR MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUSINESS this is why they use the “Tradition” argument. They are CROOKS! Where is Tradition argument? ALL their “Tradition” points have been DEFEATED.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:
8. June 2015 at 5:01 pm
Only Uttama Adhikari Acharya is authorized to ‘turn tradition on it’s head’. To hell with “tradition” that speaks of ignoring and defying the words of the Acharya. This is only the ‘narrow’ philosophy of fools and rascals, smartas and neophites! Practically all of Srila Prabhupada’s predecessors ‘flew in the face of tradition’ especially the Lord Himself, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu what to speak of many others.
The order of the ‘CURRENT ACHARYA’ (His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) IS ‘THE OVERRIDING PRINCIPAL’ in all respects AND IS SANCTIONED BY ALL THE PREVIOUS ACHARYAS IN OUR GURU PARAMPARA ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME LORD HIMSELF!
One who defies the order of Srila Prabhupada ‘IS DOOMED’ and becomes a shell! His/Her spiritual existance is CHECKED!, STIFLED!, FINISHED!
In a World of fools and rascals the “tradition” (of the majority of unfortunate souls) is to NOT follow the instructions of the Acharya and by utilising the MYTH of “tradition” The Supreme Lord Sri Krishna allows the pretenders and cheaters the means to do this!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
As much as I dislike playing the devils advocate I dislike jumping on bandwagons mpre, so I am going to have to say something here which will no doubt gain me a modicum of ill will. That being said, you are letting your temper stampede over your intelligence Sudarsana, so much so that you are translating Srila Prabhupada’s words into something which he did not say at all, into a different outcome altogether than the one you prophecy for those who fail to heed his advice and accept initiation from a lower or middle class devotee of the Lord.
In his purport to Nectar of Instruction, verse 5, Srila Prabhupdada does not revoke a permission that has existed within the broader context of the society since the disciplic succession;s line had first been broken, he does not say that one is doomed and forever finished should they fail to heed his advice and accept initiation from a kanistha or madhyama adhikari devotee, these are your thoughts, not his and since you seem to be championing them one can only wonder, whose thoughtsm words and sentiments do you actually prefer and whose do you serve?
In his purport Srila Prabhupada only warns that if one chooses to accept initiation from a lower class devotee that one will not be able to advance very far due to their insufficient guidance. This is a far cry from hurling them into a pit and covering it up over as it seems would be the only outcome that would please you.
What you may find to be even a bit more frustrating is that Srila Prabhupada does not even say that they will not be able to advance at all, as you maintain, only that they will not be able to advance very far so Srila Prabhupada does indeed seem to imply that even in such cases some advancement is possible.
Verse 5 of the Nectar of Instruction, last paragraph of the purport:
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
At this point please aallow me to quote from an article that was posted some years ago upon the Sampradaya Sun:
One of the things that we learned in logic was how to discern a truth from other truths that were provided by drawing what is referred to as being a valid inference. Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true. The conclusion drawn is also called an inference.
We accept Srila Prabhupada’s statements to be true and thus whatever logical inferences drawn from them also become valid and truthful.
Among the fascinating inferences that may be drawn from this portion of the purport is one that disputes both ISKCON and the Rtviks claim that some type of diksa (either through the method that ISKCON is offering, or through the Rtvik process) are mandatory for our spiritual advancement and salvation. It is drawn from this second to the last sentence of the purport:
“A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance.”
The valid inference that can be drawn from Srila Prabhupada’s instruction is that those who are on the lower to middle level of devotional service, or those who are kanistha andmadhyama level devotees and who go against his advice that they should not accept disciples until they are pure devotees, while they may accept disciples must be careful not to accept disciples who are not upon the exact same level of spiritual advancement as they themselves are. Thus a kanistha level devotee should only give diksa to others who are also upon the same kanistha platform, as they are. Likewise a madhyama level devotee should be careful only to give diksa to those who are on the madhyama level of spiritual advancement.
Do you see it? It is this. One can attain to at least the madhyama stage of devotional service without undergoing any formal initiation process, otherwise there would not be anymadhyama level uninitiated devotees out there for the madhyama level devotees who are already initiated to initiate.
There are some other fascinating inferences that may be drawn from just this single excerpt…
Don’t Let ISKCON or the Rtviks Get the Better of You BY: GEORGE A. SMITH
This is not to excuse what ISKCON is doing or what Rocana is condoning, Those who accept Srila Prabhupada as the Sampradaya Acarya have to accept Srila Prabhupadas instruction which means that they can only accept initiation from an uttama-adhikari which leads them with a very limited number of options. I can think of only one, Srila Prabhupada himself. If there are others out there, as we have Srila Prabhupadas assurances that there would be, I shouldn’t be surprised if not a one of them ever stepped forward considering all the crap that their disciples would be put through.
Ys George Smith
George Smiths comments are always based on a myriad of misconceptions and ‘straw man’ arguments which are like a huge knotted piece of string! He repeats the same misconceptions and delirious misunderstandings over, over, and over again which is an indication that he has not gained any realization of the ‘unlimited potency’ of the present Acharya Srila Prabhupada.
The many examples (from Srila Prabhupada, that Mahesh Raja prabhu has presented and which I have only touched on, in a general fashion) on this very topic, completely evade the sensibilities of George Smith indicating that to spend any precious time ‘unravelling knots’ of his ‘straw-man arguments’ (which I might add have already been uncovered and defeated, very perceptively by Surya Narayana Prabhu, months ago) is a complete waste of time!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Hare Krsna, dear George Praphu!
Try to read The Final Order ( Krishnakant ) with opened mind and heart.
George A Smith:In his purport to Nectar of Instruction, verse 5, Srila Prabhupdada does not revoke a permission that has existed within the broader context of the society since the disciplic succession;s line had first been broken, he does not say that one is doomed and forever finished should they fail to heed his advice and accept initiation from a kanistha or madhyama adhikari devotee, these are your thoughts, not his and since you seem to be championing them one can only wonder, whose thoughtsm words and sentiments do you actually prefer and whose do you serve?
Mahesh: These are ALSO Rocana’s contentions that Kanistha and Madhyama can initiate. This is WRONG. Srila Prabhupada does NOT say in the purport that Kanistha and Madhyama can “initiate”. He ONLY SAYS they CAN accept disciples. There is ONLY ONE INITIATOR: Mahabhagavata he TRANSFERS Krsna into your heart. THAT is INITIATION(Diksa) .Kanistha and Madhyama can NOT do THIS hence the ONE INITIATOR is Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata. 1st and 2nd Initiation is just FORMALITY which is done ON BEHALF of the Maha bhagavata. These points have been ALREADY been covered in detail:
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
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Srila Prabhupada is THAT Acarya who first Initiates us with the MAHA-MANTRA
Adi 1.34 The Spiritual Masters
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has composed this Sanskrit verse for the beginning of his book, and now he will explain it in detail. He offers his respectful obeisances to the six principles of the Absolute Truth. Gurun is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, THE GURU WHO FIRST INITIATES ONE WITH THE MAHA-MANTRA IS TO BE KNOWN AS THE INITIATOR, AND THE SAINTS WHO GIVE INSTRUCTIONS FOR PROGRESSIVE ADVANCEMENT IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS ARE CALLED INSTRUCTING SPIRITUAL MASTERS.
Srila Prabhupada is the ONE initiator Spiritual Master
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Srila Prabhupada is THAT PURE devotee who GIVES Krsna
SB 7.9.42 P Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
Here the words priya janan anusevatam nah indicate that the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is very favorable to devotees who act according to the instructions of His own pure devotee. In other words, one must become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. If one wants to become the servant of the Lord directly, this is not as fruitful as engaging in the service of the Lord’s servant. This is the direction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who shows us the way to become gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah. One should not be proud of becoming directly the servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rather, one must seek a pure devotee, a servant of the Lord, and engage oneself in the service of such a servant. The more one becomes the servant of the servant, the more one becomes perfect in devotional service. This is also the injunction of Bhagavad-gita: evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. One can understand the science of the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by the parampara system. In this regard, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, tandera carana sevi bhakta-sane vasa: “Let me serve the lotus feet of the devotees of the Lord, and let me live with devotees.” Janame janame haya, ei abhilasa. Following Narottama dasa Thakura, one should aspire to be a servant of the Lord’s servant, life after life. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura also sings, tumi ta’ thakura, tomara kukura, baliya janaha more: “O my Lord, O Vaisnava, please consider me your dog.” One must become the dog of a Vaisnava, a pure devotee, for a pure devotee can deliver Krsna without difficulty. Krsna se tomara, krsna dite para. KRSNA IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS PURE DEVOTEE, AND IF WE TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE CAN DELIVER KRSNA VERY EASILY. Prahlada wants to engage in the service of a devotee, and therefore he prays to Krsna, “My dear Lord, kindly give me the shelter of Your very dear devotee so that I may engage in his service and You may then be pleased.” Mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika (Bhag. 11.19.21). The Lord says, “Engaging in the service of My devotee is better than trying to engage in My devotional service.
Srila Prabhupada is THE ONE INITIATING Spiritual Master:
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb:
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was TRANSFERRED from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT: As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Well said, Mahesh Raja Prabhu!
As Srila Prabhupada has said many times “Everything is in my books”. Your answers, (Mahesh) to the many topics on this site are always well researched and relevant (which is no doubt a very time consuming process). Many thanks for presenting these relevant points on Guru Tattva. Your contribution is very much appreciated.
Vaisnava Dasanudas
Sudarsana
Sudarsana Das Vanacari says: ” George Smiths comments are always based on a myriad of misconceptions and ……………………….. ”
As a matter of fact, his comments are always based on his mental perception of ” … iccha – devesa samutthena…) BG. 7. 27 which is ACCEPTING and REJECTING simultaneously as pointed out in my comments else where on this thread.
George A. Smith says ; : Do I accept everything that he says as the words of a pure devotee, yes.
Do I accept that everything is in his books? Yes.
But do I understand everything in his books or think that everything in his books is meant fot me? No.
Then George continues to say ; ” ………… seem to be contradictory ……….. ” and again he explains the contradiction he had referred to in his comments.
As it appears from his comments which I find the state of his mind in the ACCEPTING and REJECTING SIMULTANEOUSLY IN HIS EVERY COMMENTS WHEN HE WRITES AND EXPLAINS HIS VERY OWN POSITION WITH REGARD TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF RiTVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATION OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
George, I ask directly once and for all this simple question ;
Do you accept and subscribe to the Ritvik System of Initiation of Srila Prabhupada or NOT ?
Awaiting to hear further from you, George.
Mahesh, your reply…more about me than to me and that for the same obvious reasons that Sudarshan misstates in his reply, brings to mind a statement that I first heard in my youth outside of the Krsna conciousness, movement,but whose truth I never doubted, that statement being that: “All gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess, and there is one initiator.”
Although this saying is most often attributed to Dion Fortune and to the Occult society known as The Golden Dawn which flourished around the dawning of the early 20th century it has much, much more ancient antecedents attesting to the fact that it was no recent theory or the concoction of what might be seen as then being “modern day constructionists.” Subjected to the acid test we find that it is reflective not only of the truth of itself but of the truth that Guru Tattva, like the Sun is non-sectarian.
The word “Initiation” has several different meanings and thus has been the source of considerable confusion over the years. In one sense it simply refers to a beginning and thus could refer to the beginning of a new project or even to the beginning of a new love affair. In a second sense it may refer to a ritualistic observance that marks the acceptance of a person into some society or as the disciple of some personality.
In a third manner of speaking m in an esoteric sense, initiation refers to something to which formal initiation may be seen as being meant to be only an outward display of an inner transition. In any case the word deserves more respect than the usage of it by anyone to introduce any more confusion than it already has.
Your argument is nonsense Mahesh, a mere grasping at semantic straws in a desperate attempt to muddy the waters and avoid a truth that is both unpleasant and inconvenient to your presentation, a truth which is that even lower and middle class devotees can accept disciples and that by the doing of such may even help their disciples to advance a little ways in Krsna consciousness, a truth that Srila Prabhupada said.
I have already discounted Sudarsans counter claim that they are all doomed and destined for Hell basically by simply presenting Srila Prabhupadas own words, which, unsurprisingly Sudarsan now seems to be claiming have been disproven and discounted, supposedly simply due to the fact that it was I who was repeating them.
0 + 0 does not however add up in my book to anything more than a couple of big minuses, so intent in being seen as plusses that Srila Prabhupadas words are no more to them than game pieces to be pushed around, regarded or disregarded depending upon how useful they may be to them personally at the time.
“Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bona fide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual Master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.
I hope this letter finds you well,
Your ever well wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
New Delhi, 2 December, 1975 letter to Tusta Krishna Swami
As to your claim Mahesh that thiat Srila Prabhupada meant yo deny such prospective gurus from formally accepting such disciples or from following the proper rituals or observing the correct etiquette, Srila Prabhupada bever dispensed with this formality and even the Rtviks but if you bow wisg to claim that no one needs to accept Rtvik initiation to become Srila Prabhupadas disciples through the following of his orders, I am with you.
Well?
We’re waiting.
Mahesh Srila Prabhupada does not need you to finish his statements for him and neither do we. Each of us can read and think and come to our own conclusions, which however unpopular they may be on this or that forum where they may present thoughts and conclusions that differ from the thin party line, we each od us are entititled to fo, I just so happen to have Srila Prabhupadas assurabces that I am right, so what can I say, except “chant Hare Krsna” to as such as you.
Srila Prabhupada does not say that such devotees cannot FORMALLY accept disciples, (formally meaning also to ritually initiate them), thats just what you want him to say so much that you try yourself to add it but your not allowed, no more than Sudarsan dasa is allowed to take over for Yamaraja and send everyone to Hell who decides to accept initiation from their saintly villiage elseder or who knows, some frog in a well,, and we see that this practice is going on throughout India since time immemorial or at least the time of Alexander and that it is still going on today thoughout India and that even among Gaudiya Vaisnavas that as recently as the departure of Narayana Maharaja that before his passing that he gave his blessing to his disciples who wished to continue this practice.
Just because Srila Prabhupada did not add such a restriction as you would have wanted him to add in his comments in the Nectar of Instruction does not mean that you are free to cut and paste as you please or quote him out of context from other places. You can try it but without any assurance that you are as convincing to your audience as you make yourself out to be. Neither can you by changing focus to a different meaning of the word Initiate, one that allows you to dispense with a vital social element of its practice, one that Srila Prabhupada accepted himself. This is just your own particular version of the old bait and switch game and reveals a philosophical weak point in your position, that and a somewhat panicky trait in your disposition, like the one displayed sometimes by those who go out into the ocean, out of their depth and then feel something very large brush by them.
Amar
Yoy ask”
“Do you accept and subscribe to the Ritvik System of Initiation of Srila Prabhupada or NOT ?”
These are two different questions, not the same one and neither are phrased as precisely as they should be vy one who thinks homself capable of determining who is within or without the benifit and benidiction of Srila Prabhupadas and Lord Krsna’s mercy.
Even before you ask them of me I must inform you that you have no right to put such questions to me or to anyone, You may ask if you may but absolutely you may not demand.
With that being said (and doubting that you will understand my answers, even if I were to choose to elaborate them again for the umptenth time, to question 1 which I will answer in the form of.
Do you accept the Ritvik System of Initiation as bona fide?
To this form of the question I reply that I do accept the Rtvik tradition as bona fide, hust not the exclusive bona fide form of initiation.
To what should be the form of the second question:
Do you subscribeor personannly accepy Ritvik System of Initiation of Srila Prabhupada yourself?
Considering my answer to the first question this second question can be seen as being somewhat rhertorical as I do not believe that the Rtviks would be very open to initiating someone who has such views as I have. Never the less, in the case that they were so open I still do not think that I would for I have gone without the formality of initiation for so long that it would simply be like hanging a sign on a tree stump that read “blasted out by lightning”
I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada without formality during his still physical presence in 1977. ISKCON could only deny formal initiation to the hundreds that it was saving up at the time for the soon to be new acaryas while it was waiting for our spiritual master to succunb to thier “ministrationsm” they could not stop his meercy from touching down upon anyone who was reaching up for it.
George A Smith:” As to your claim Mahesh that thiat Srila Prabhupada meant yo deny such prospective gurus from formally accepting such disciples..”
Mahesh: Let us look at the quote you provided AND its PROPER UNDERSTANDING:
“Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bona fide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.”
New Delhi, 2 December, 1975
Note:“Rigidly” – this is not some cheap version of the bogus GBC manufactured “gurus”. This is indicating UTTAMA ADHIKARI potency to make disciples “without any limitation”. Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS ARE MAKING disciples WITHOUT ANY LIMITATION – which is going to go on for generations to come yet. THIS is RIGIDLY. Many of us have NEVER lived in temple settings yet we follow the DISCIPLINE of 4 regulative principles and chant 16 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra from Srila Prabhupada’s DISCIPLINE IN HIS BOOKS. All we ever got was the association of Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS. Please refer to my article
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
One who is accepting discipline from Srila Prabhupada is Srila Prabhupada’s disciple.
In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
Who is Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple?
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit:
Prabhupada: “Who is my disciple? First of all let him FOLLOW STRICTLY THE DISCIPLINED RULES.
Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is…
Prabhupada: Then he is all right.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bhaktijana, September 21, 1972:
“You do not require to worry as I shall never leave you, you are my disciple and I am your spiritual master, so there is no question, AS LONG AS you follow my instructions, that I shall ever leave you. Just remember under all circumstances to chant sixteen rounds of japa daily, offer your prasadam to Krsna, and do all of the things which you already know, as you are senior disciple. These things will protect you under all conditions, without any doubt.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, November 7, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one follows the principles, he continues to be my disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tusta Krsna, November 9, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one continues to follow the rules and regulations, he continues to be my disciple wherever he may be.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 9, 1969:
“Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. THIS DEFYING MEANS TO DISCONNECT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. AND ANYONE WHO DEFIES AND THEREFORE DISCONNECTS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Cidananda, November 25, 1973:
“Please always try to REMEMBER ME BY MY TEACHINGS AND WE SHALL ALWAYS BE TOGETHER. Just like I have written in the first publications of Srimad-Bhagavatam, “The spiritual Master lives forever by His divine instruction and the disciple lives with him.”, because I have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the chalked out path layed down by the great acharya’s and in the end you will see.”
Who is NOT Srila Prabhupada’s disciple?
Initiation does not bear any meaning
Srila Prabhupada Letter, January 11, 1970:
“Regarding your question of an initiated person falling prey to the maya, the answer is that so long we are in this material world, there is always chance of being spoiled by Maya, so we must stick with vow to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The Spiritual Master’s business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bonafide Spiritual Master HIS INITIATION DOES NOT BEAR ANY MEANING. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the Spiritual Master. Therefore, if the Spiritual Master is bonafide and the disciple is serious to abide by His order, then the success is sure.”
Otherwise they are NOT my disciples
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Raja Laksmi, February 17, 1976:
“My advise is always chant 16 rounds minimum and follow the four regulative principles. All of my disciples must agree on this point OTHERWISE THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLES.”
Against the principle
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dhrstaketu, July 17, 1976:
“Unless absolutely necessary, one should keep head shaven and not allow the hair to grow long. If absolutely necessary, one can dress like an American gentleman, with short hair, but long hair is prohibited. The reason that one with long hair is not my disciple is because he is AGAINST THE PRINCIPLE. Unless absolutely necessary one should keep hair short, and if necessary one can dress like an American gentleman with short hair. It is not expected that everyone will join. For that reason we can’t compromise. The tendency is there to be hippy. When the acaryas are seen with beard, that is during Caturmasya, July-September. If observed strictly there is not simply a beard. There are so many rules and regulations. One can’t eat a variety of foods. Only kitri prepared and poured on the floor, and then licked up. There are so many other rules also. THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THAT THEY KEPT BEARD.”
There are many so-called Prabhupada disciples – but only in name. They in fact decline to follow Srila Prabhupada’s discipline hence they are Srila Prabhupada disciples in name only. They show superficial lip service to Srila Prabhupada.
Disciple in name only
Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, New York, July 10, 1976:
Prabhupada: And the Bon Maharaja is his follower. HE’S IN NAME a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, BUT HE’S A SERVANT OF Vivekananda.
Tamala Krsna: He’s very similar to him.
Prabhupada: He’s a great appreciator of Vivekananda. He has put in his curriculum Vivekananda philosophy, Gandhi philosophy. Rascal, what philosophy they have got?
STEALING SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLES, HIS PROPERTIES, FOR ONESELF (BECOMING SELF MADE GURU-BY BOGUS GBC APPOINTMENT OF 2/3 MAJORITY VOTES) HAS GRAVE CONSEQUENCES:
Krsna Book, Chapter 64 – The Story of King Nrga:
At this time, Lord Krsna was present among His relatives who were members of the ksatriya class. To teach them through the exemplary character of King Nrga, He said, “Even though a ksatriya king may be as powerful as fire, it is not possible for him to usurp the property of a brahmana and utilize it for his own purpose. If this is so, how can ordinary kings, who falsely think of themselves as the most powerful beings within the material world, usurp a brahmana’s property? I do not think that taking poison is as dangerous as taking a brahmana’s property. For ordinary poison there is treatment–one can be relieved from its effects; but if one drinks the poison of taking a brahmana’s property, there is no remedy for the mistake. THE PERFECT EXAMPLE IS KING NRGA. HE WAS VERY POWERFUL AND VERY PIOUS, BUT DUE TO THE SMALL MISTAKE OF UNKNOWINGLY USURPING A BRAHMANA’S COW, HE WAS CONDEMNED TO THE ABOMINABLE LIFE OF A LIZARD. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; BUT THE ARANI FIRE IGNITED BY THE SPIRITUAL POTENCY OF A BRAHMANA CAN BURN TO ASHES THE WHOLE FAMILY OF A PERSON WHO PROVOKES SUCH A BRAHMANA.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “IF SOMEONE EVEN TOUCHES A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, HE IS RUINED FOR THREE GENERATIONS. HOWEVER, IF A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY IS FORCIBLY TAKEN AWAY, THE TAKER’S FAMILY FOR TEN GENERATIONS BEFORE HIM AND TEN GENERATIONS AFTER HIM WILL BECOME SUBJECT TO RUINATION. On the other hand, if someone becomes a Vaisnava, or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will become liberated.”
Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. THEREFORE I INSTRUCT YOU, ALL MY BOYS AND RELATIVES PRESENT HERE, DO NOT, EVEN BY MISTAKE, TAKE THE POSSESSION OF A BRAHMANA AND THEREBY POLLUTE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY. IF SOMEONE EVEN WISHES TO POSSESS SUCH PROPERTY, LET ALONE ATTEMPTS TO TAKE IT AWAY BY FORCE, THE DURATION OF HIS LIFE WILL BE REDUCED. HE WILL BE DEFEATED BY HIS ENEMIES, AND AFTER BEING BEREFT OF HIS ROYAL POSITION, WHEN HE GIVES UP HIS BODY HE WILL BECOME A SERPENT. A SERPENT GIVES TROUBLE TO ALL OTHER LIVING ENTITIES. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or curses you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”
It has been a common practice among Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers to steal Srila Prabhupada’s disciples by trickery. Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja are also known to have re-initiated Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Narayana Maharaja is also a culprit in this deplorable un-Vaisnava, offensive, insulting conduct. This act proves they are conditioned souls.
From the letter below one can see that history repeats itself; because they are conditioned souls they ventured to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Thus, they were caught out as Srila Prabhupada clearly says of the action: “SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Mukunda, March 26, 1968:
“In meantime, I have also received one letter which is very depressing from Hrsikesa. I understand that he has been induced by Bon Maharaja to be initiated by him for giving him shelter, and this foolish boy has accepted his inducement. This isn’t very happy news, and I have replied Hrsikesa’s letter in the following words, which please take note, and in the future, we shall be very cautious about them. “My Dear Hrsikesa, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of March 14, 1968, and I am greatly surprised. I AM GREATLY SURPRISED FOR BON MAHARAJA’S INITIATING YOU IN SPITE OF HIS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE ALREADY INITIATED BY ME. SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. I very much appreciate your acknowledgement of my service unto you and you will always have my blessings, BUT YOU MUST KNOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMITTEE. A GREAT BLUNDER. I do not wish to discuss on this point more elaborately now, but if you are desirous to know further about it, I shall be glad to give you more enlightenment. Mukunda is not here. He has gone to L.A. Hope you are well.” If Hrsikesa writes you letter I think you may avoid reply. I DO NOT APPROVE BOTH HRSIKESA’S AND BON MAHARAJA’S THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. Hoping you are both well.”
In venturing to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples —they could not even have understood the philosophy properly. As It is clearly stated: A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. For them to Initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples they would be falling into a trap of REJECTING Srila Prabhupada as the Initiating Guru—DIRECT INSULT-committed BOTH by the so-called disciple of Srila Prabhupada and their conditioned soul “gurus”.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1.35:
The Spiritual Masters
“The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN.”
ALL GLORIES TO OUR BONAFIDE JAGAT DIKSA
AND SIKSA GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA!
HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE
George A. Smith says ;
” I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada without formality during his still physical presence in 1977. ” and continues saying that ” ……. they could not stop his meercy from touching down upon anyone who was reaching up for it. ”
That is very nice, George. You accept what it suits your position and now let us see what it does not suit your position.
After rephrasing my simple straight forward question in my comments, George rephrasing it which perhaps best suits his position when he says ;
“Do you accept the Ritvik System of Initiation as bona fide?
To this form of the question I reply that I do accept the Rtvik tradition as bona fide, hust not the exclusive bona fide form of initiation.
To what should be the form of the second question:
Do you subscribeor personannly accepy Ritvik System of Initiation of Srila Prabhupada yourself?
Considering my answer to the first question this second question can be seen as being somewhat rhertorical as I do not believe that the Rtviks would be very open to initiating someone who has such views as I have. ”
BASED ON THE ABOVE MENTIONED REPLY from George A. Smith ; my comments are totally TRUE which read as ;
” As a matter of fact, his comments are always based on his mental perception of ” … iccha — devesa samutthena…) BG. 7. 27 which is ACCEPTING and REJECTING simultaneously as pointed out in my comments else where on this thread. ”
George A. Smith wants Srila Prabhupda mercy — (INSTRUCTIONS ) the way it best suit his position and for the rest HE discard it when he says this ” …….. who has such views as I have. “.
Is your views not subject to FOUR DEFECTS ?
GEORGE A. SMITH ; You are very DISHONEST to yourself.
Not only that you are CHEATING yourself but to others also which is a DIS-SERVICE to Srila Prabhupada’s Mission
So how can you have MERCY from Srila Prabhupada when you are ACCEPTING and REJECTING simaltanously ?
Read what HDG. Srila Prabhupada says ;
” In the Bhagavad-gita the verse vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, in connection with that verse, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his commentary that we should take up the words from the spiritual master as our life and soul. We should try to carry out the instruction, the specific instruction of the spiritual master, very rigidly, without caring for our personal benefit or loss.”
(Srila Prabhupada lecture, December 9, 1968, Los Angeles) “.
If anyone’s read Rocan’s unfortunate recollection of the sufferings he endured under the control of Hansadutta and other conditioned souls acting beyond their level of spiritual purity, it’s hard not to feel though he clearly ‘knows the horror’ he’s also somewhat indifferent to it happening to others.
When a pretender acting as a guru is finally exposed it’s bad for everyone, (except the guru, who may retire somewhere warm, build a recording studio, buy a Harley, etc, etc). But what Rocan doesn’t touch on in his Constitution is the damage and confusion these cheats will also create everywhere they go for however many years they can keep up their act.
The con-man’s lie seeps out in so many subtle ways, falling on the heads of disciples and any devotees unfortunate enough to be touched by the ragas and tamas they mistake for pure goodness. In their desperation to have a pure devotee guru, disciples may misread sexual agitation for ‘mercy’ if guru maharaja humiliates them in pubic or freezes them out. And if a guru installs disciples in positions of management within his zone entire yatras can be (mis)lead by the material desires within the gurus heart, and as a result devotees suffer as the so-called guru lusts after money, (think Hong Kong oil paintings) shows special favour to the women, (or men,.. or children) he’s attracted to, and attempts to drive away those he knows see through his thin veneer. The list of damage could go on and on as there’s no end to what the conditioned soul can do given the facility to exploit others. (I suspect some readers of this article will have their own realized knowledge of the mess a conditioned soul masquerading as guru can inflict. Rocana Prabhu certainly does).
So it’s not enough to simply write off the odd guru fall-down as ‘jolly bad luck old chap’, or collateral damage. Watch the video posted a little while back of Bhagavan and Dhristadyumna ruin that aspiring devotees chance to give her life to Prabhupada and it’s glaringly obvious that conditioned soul’s controlled by their senses and the modes of nature are unqualified to care for or properly guide others. I personally believe that any system that allows conditioned souls to hold the post of guru is not what Srila Prabhupada wanted.
Surya Narayana das – NZ mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Amar
“…disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. (Letter Dinesh 10/31/69)
Considering Rtvik to be bona fide and considering it right for me are two different things. Since I am not a member of your society there is no need for any formality, it would just confuse people anyway. Let the devotees see me as they have always seen me, it seems to make them feel like their not totally unapreciated out there and that they hav a friend. I can’t imagine a greater sense of recognition than that feeling gives me.
You obviously don’t understand me and it’s probably not good for you to encourage you so I leave you to your own thoughts, whatever they are. Hare Krsna prabhu. May Srila Prabhupadas mercy rain down on you.
George A Smith says: Amar
“…disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. (Letter Dinesh 10/31/69) ”
George, Why do you reject the disciplic conclusion, when and what it does not suit your views of the disciplic conclusion as pointed out in my comments ?
Obviously I don’t understand you and your ACCEPTING and REJECTING simultaneously what it does not suit your views as you have accepted it in your every comments.
I have no society of my own except trying to follow Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions in its ENTIRETY as HDG. says and instructs and share the same with people without my own VIEW.
Since you have your own VIEWS as admitted by you, therefore, to protect and promote your views you ACCEPT and REJECT Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions in its ENTIRETY.
Is that not TRUE ?
Is that not MISLEADING to people who so ever reads your views ?
What kind of a dis- service you are rendering to Srila Prabhupada’s mission with your conflicting and confused writings of accepting and rejecting simultaneously ?
Yes, Srila Prabhupada’s mercy is always upon to every one PROPORTIONATELY to ones’ accepting HDG. Instructions in its ENTIRETY.
George, I beg from you to please LET GO your misleading VIEWS as you have pointed out and simply ACCEPT Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions in its ENTIRETY to serve Srila Prabhupada’s mission without caring for your personal benefit or loss as Srila Prabhupada’s desires and Instructs ;
” In the Bhagavad-gita the verse vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, in connection with that verse, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his commentary that we should take up the words from the spiritual master as our life and soul. We should try to carry out the instruction, the specific instruction of the spiritual master, very rigidly, without caring for our personal benefit or loss.”
(Srila Prabhupada lecture, December 9, 1968, Los Angeles) “.
Surya das :The list of damage could go on and on as there’s no end to what the conditioned soul can do given the facility to exploit others. (I suspect some readers of this article will have their own realized knowledge of the mess a conditioned soul masquerading as guru can inflict. Rocana Prabhu certainly does).
So it’s not enough to simply write off the odd guru fall-down as ‘jolly bad luck old chap’, or collateral damage.
Mahesh: the situation is: the CON MEN conditioned soul “gurus” voted in by bogus GBC have been SOOOO BADLY EXPOSED that they need a COVER UP—- so they can CARRY ON with their MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUSINESS under ANOTHER NAME . Rocana is their FRONT LINE MAN to give a “NEW FACE” approach. Same old wine in a NEW bottle. Their TRICK is: they want to MISLEAD others AWAY from the BONAFIDE Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada and his Ritvik System.
Rocana by his Anti Ritvik propaganda wants to MISLEAD by creation of BACK DOOR ENTRY for these conditioned soul bogus “gurus” hence his attempt at “ISKCON CONSTITUTION”:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Note: below EARLIER I had WARNED of the the BIG RISK of bogus Anti Ritvik conditioned soul “gurus” being dragged in Courts and the ISKCON Institution being made LIABLE. Now – Just to show RECENT EVIDENCE there was a Court Case where JW were FORCED to PAYOUT:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33201010
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh Raja says:
21. May 2015 at 8:14 pm
The Bill of Modern Slavery In UK is on progress in the Parliament.
What does this mean?
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/modernslavery.html
If the Bill is accepted in Parliament then it becomes a LAW. When it becomes a LAW then there will be Implications and enforcement.
NO WIN NO FEE. The lawyers will LOVE this as HUGE POTENTIAL for MONEY to be made from RICH Religious institutions because this SLAVERY MIND CONTROL is MOSTLY in the Religious institutions.
And—-
Rocana’s proposed “Oath of Allegiance” signature to their CONDITIONED soul gurus will IMPLICATE not only the bogus gurus BUT ALSO the ISKCON Institution itself. THEY ARE LINKED. There is ALREADY AMPLE evidence for implication on Internet AND people abused. Lawyers will just LOVE this Rocana’s proposal.It gives them WRITTEN evidence to implicate the ISKCON institution when their CROOK gurus MANIPULATE the lives of devotees and devotees go to these NO WIN NO FEE Lawyers.
Adopting Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik System as Per July 9th 1977 is PERFECT solution as ISKCON Institution is PROTECTED from LIABILITY from Court Cases:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33201010
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/modernslavery.html
Consider this –
Ritvik Representative has NO disciples hence NO hold over the disciples.
the format OF DUTY is “for the purpose of 1st and 2nd Initiations” ONLY.
Just like a marriage a priest is NOT held accountable if the marriage goes wrong. They can NOT sue the priest OR the Church for marriage if it goes wrong. The Church as Institution is NOT implicated if the marriage conducted by the priest goes wrong – SIMPLE AS THAT!
In the cases where the disciples take their condition soul “gurus” to Court over mistreatment, SLAVERY there IS LIABILITY because there is MIND CONTROL this CAN be PROVED and the ISKCON INSTITUTION is LIABLE. And —- a VERY good Lawyer CAN make HUGH amount of MONEY. Lawyers LIKE to go for RICH Institutions.
If anyone’s read Rocan’s unfortunate recollection of the sufferings he endured under the control of Hansadutta and other conditioned souls acting beyond their level of spiritual purity, it’s hard not to feel though he clearly ‘knows the horror’ he’s also somewhat indifferent to it happening to others.”
Surya
“By my particular fate, I was enthused by the devoted Rtvik exponent, Yasoda nandana dasa, to again re-involve myself in my previous quest for uncovering the truth of what Srila Prabhupada actually desired for His disciples and His society. A personal dilemma quickly arose when I discovered that Hansadutta dasa was now an outspoken advocate of the post samadhi Rtvik system. I was embracing this same hypothesis, in comparison to the past and present ISKCON initiation policy. It was my conviction that if the senior disciples had been humble enough, they would not have changed anything Srila Prabhupada had established.
Being one of the very early victims of the tragic introduction of the zonal acarya system, I maintained a deep-seated resentment towards the whole bogus system. This was the system that had previously authorized the sacrificing of the Seattle Temple, deities and gurukula, what to speak of the expulsion of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, all for the sake of preserving the external image of the imitation acaryas purporting to be uttama adhikaries. To this day, I consider this traumatic circumstance to be the most devastating thing I’ve experienced so far in my lifetime. That whole shocking incident did not cause me to lose my faith in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, nor discourage me to the point that I would leave the movement. But after a series of many disappointments, stretching over 10 years and culminating in the undermining of our attempts to reform the zonal acarya system, I finally took my leave.
For me, Hansadutta dasa personified everything that was wrong with that era.
“Oh! I remember You” An Open letter to Hansadutta dasa, by Rocana dasa
Devotee:“What does Hansadutta want Srila Prabhupada?”
Srila Prabhupada:”Hansadutta wants me to die.”
Shortly before Srila Prabhupadas passing, two of ISKCONs high muckety-mucks; Jayatirtha and Hansaduta came to visit our little backwoods temple on Capitol Hill in Seattle. I was somehow able to make myself absent from the reception and foot bathing but was there to see them off the next morning as they waited impatiently outside the temple for their rides to speed them away. It was then that I walked up to them, one look at Jayatirtha, the characteristic signs. I had used enough LSD myself before I had come to the movement to tell that that he was blazing..straight up to Hasnsadutta I walked. He looked at me, I looked at him. I didn’t bow, I didn’t grovel, I only opened my mouth and spoke one sentence “I want to make advancement.” It wasn’t scripted, it wasn’t planned, it was however a test. Hansadutta respected that I hasdn’t bowed, that I hadn’t groveled for for those who nowed and groveled to him he had no respect. What I said to him wasn’t a question, but he fielded it as if it was, procedining then to give me a formula by which I could climb up the social ladder of ISKCON to a position of power and prestige, what he considered to be advancement and through this iteration I came to understand his mentality, why he performed devotional service and that he was a demon.
You will note that in Rocana dasas initial response towards the Rtviks that it was both optimistic and favorable until he found Hansaduta in the Rtvik camp which brought such enthusiasm to a screeching halt. Feelings are real abd cannot be denied and thus the models that support the feelings take on a reality that otherwise they would not possess, You observe that Rocana is somewhat insensitive to others because he leaves his position open to those who would exploit others and yet yhe Rtviks openly accept Hansadutta whose position is that he is the only acceptable Rtvik guru and both the Rtviks and Rocana accuse the other side of being less than caring about the poor innocents. I suggest a trade off. Let Tocana decline to accept any guru who is not a pure devotee and let the Rtvits disbar Hansaduta from holding any position ever as a Rtvik initiator.
George A Smith:You will note that in Rocana dasas initial response towards the Rtviks that it was both optimistic and favorable until he found Hansaduta in the Rtvik camp which brought such enthusiasm to a screeching halt.
Mahesh: Just BECAUSE Hansadutta wants to follows the Ritvik System does NOT make the Ritvik System false.
Ritvik System is Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER. It is NOT someones PERSONAL PRIVATE ASSET.
Rocana does not like Hansadutta – ACCEPTED! But WHY DEVIATE from Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 Ritvik ORDER just BECAUSE of Hansadutta ALONE ?
The FACT is there are are many devotees who ARE in the “Ritvik Camp” who do NOT get along with Hansadutta ALSO but they DO NOT give up the Ritvik System. These are JUST PERSONAL DIFFERENCES between individuals. Question of GROWING-UP!
WE -ALL- HAVE TO ACCEPT THE JULY 9TH 1977 RITVIK -ORDER- FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA – THAT’S ALL!
Rocan writes: “Being one of the very early victims of the tragic introduction of the zonal acarya system, I maintained a deep-seated resentment towards the whole bogus system. This was the system that had previously authorized the sacrificing of the Seattle Temple, deities and gurukula, what to speak of the expulsion of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, all for the sake of preserving the external image of the imitation acaryas purporting to be uttama adhikaries. To this day, I consider this traumatic circumstance to be the most devastating thing I’ve experienced so far in my lifetime.”
This man is rewriting history for his own benefit. He was one of the militant enforcers of the bogus guru system right from the beginning. He didn’t care about the rank and file devotees – his godbrothers and godsisters. He was too busy prancing around like a proud peacock enjoying his status of “regional secretary,” along with all the opulence and adoration he could get. Now he wants us to feel sorry for him? This man is a self-centered, self-pitying, spoiled brat – a big baby! Now he’s getting a taste of his own medicine.
George writes: “You will note that in Rocana dasas initial response towards the Rtviks that it was both optimistic and favorable until he found Hansaduta in the Rtvik camp which brought such enthusiasm to a screeching halt.”
So Rocan doesn’t accept Prabhupada’s ritvik order because Hamsadutta accepts it? Never mind what Prabhupada wants! He’s once again acting like a big baby in the sandbox who can’t share his toys. Poor little boy.
“Same wine a new bottle The position of Hansadutta Das” http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/Ham100208.htm
QUOTE:
Here is what I HEARD from XXXX sources: 1986 Rocana was PART AND PARCEL of the GURU REFORM COMMITTEE. This MEANS they ALL wanted PLAY A PART in SLAVERY AND SCREWING MONEY. It was when the OLD BOYS CLUB(Bogus GBC) decided to get rid of Rocana that he OPENED a NEW SHOP the SAMPRADAYA SUN. The idea behind NEW SHOP SUN SAMPRADAYA was HOW to GET BACK his PAYROLL. This is WHY he went to EXPOSE the CORRUPTION AMONG BOGUS GBC RUBBERS-STAMPED GURUS. This is why HE USED the “RITVIKS” as a LEVER to GET BACK HIS PAYROLL. When the EXPOSING got HOT the PAYROLL was PAID to SILENCE him: Ritvik Order was WINNING all the devotees.
Rocana’s Anti Ritvik Propaganda is about HIS PAYROLL from the Bogus GBC .
As long as they PAY HIM he will play the ANTI RITVIK PROPAGANDA game.
Rocana’s Hansadutta animosity is just another thing that they had which goes back over the time.
The MAIN reason that MANY devotees in RITVIK Camp do NOT accept Hansadutta is because they believe he STILL has the “guruship” disease of wanting to gather HIS OWN disciples whilst playing at being Ritvik.
Another point what I read from email exchanges is:
Hansadutta does NOT accept Srila Prabhupada was given poison ALTHOUGH the facts are VERY CLEAR:
The following sites has whispers of the poison givers:
To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click here or
http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh
And for Individual highlighted louder version of the whole CD , please go to
http://www.culturedbooks.com/audio/audio-address.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada Given Poison:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42549#comment-29598
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“This man is rewriting history for his own benefit. He was one of the militant enforcers of the bogus guru system right from the beginning. He didn’t care about the rank and file devotees — his godbrothers and godsisters. He was too busy prancing around like a proud peacock enjoying his status of “regional secretary,” along with all the opulence and adoration he could get. Now he wants us to feel sorry for him? This man is a self-centered, self-pitying, spoiled brat — a big baby! Now he’s getting a taste of his own medicine.”
I do not remember Rocana dasa as a person who accepted himself as being just another one of us. Always he would be either smiling or sneering down his nose at others, depending upon whether he was trying to manipulate them or just voicing his contempt for them, needlees to say this all came from his feeling that he was superior to all the rest of us, except to Hansadutta, etc, who he seemed as unable to recognize for what he is as he can see inside himself.
Hansadutta is not the ONLY reason that Rocana dasa considers the Rtviks to be a dishonest and hypocritical bunch, more than one of your..what do you call them? Defascto leaders have promissed to debate him but in the end only strung him along and as far as Maheshs thought that its as simple as accepting or rejecting Srila Prabhupadas order, it isn’t. I was in the service and I know what a direct order is. The best the Rtviks have is a logical inference and if they are smart enough, the brain power to discern the guru-tattva that supports it, a soft sell that over time may win the world but they instead go out and try to hard sell it with a damn you if you don’t attiude if you hum or hah about accepting it, that and an avid an eager willingness to talk crap about you.
The point of my post was that although Rocana is (I agree) shockingly and hidiously insensitive towards those who may share a similar fate due to his hairbrained policy of opening the doors of his new ISKCON wide to any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to play guru for whatever reason, that the Rtviks aren’t there out in force policing their own either. Just look at the type of slanders and calumny that go by unprotested by any of you on your own forum…and Hansadutta, who Srila Prabhupada said wanted him dead. Just for accepting him at all Krsna may doom you.
It really isn’t a coincidence I don;t think that Rocan dasa finally showed his hand on how he felt about the guru issue. You could have lost that one with the possible result that Rocana dasas writings could have been a lot more damaging to you after he was beyond laying those cards out. Rocana has always been a cautious man but with enough spoon feeding and coaxing. It is likewise no coincidence that Rocanas views and my views are the same on the guru issue. What is missed is that they are the same but onlt to an extent. For example both Rocana dasa and I accept Srila Prabhupadas assurance that a lower and middle level devotee can initiate, Where we differ is that Srila Prabhupadas says that they may but he also forbids it and thus anyone who is not a pure devotee of Krsna who accepts disciples (and initiates them) is going against Srila Prabhupadas order. While that may be fine for those outside of ISKCON it is definitly not something that you can practice yourself or accept the practice of if you are in the line of disciplic succession from Srila Prabhupada. This is obvious I feel and makes Rocana dasas position both hypocritical and haughable for on the one hane he refuses to accept the Rtviks because they are supposedly assidantic out of their supposed rejection of Srila Prabhupadas conclusion on initiations and on the other hand he is accepting those who are rejecting Srila Prabhupadas orders and flaunting them in his face.
Rocana I think is hooked on the cult of Rocana. You gotta have something when all you do all day otherwise is drive around a tour bus filled with old ladies.. In Rocanas dreams he saves Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON from the Rtviks and all other contenders and gets to watch it in re-runs in the old folks home until he drifts off to Vrndava. He might have had his dream if he’d never put these cards down but its clear Aces and Eights. “In this corner the Rtviks with Krsnas pure devotee Srila Prabhupada and in this corner Rocana and ISKCON with nothing much at all – Srila Prabhupada said.” None of you should be alarmed at Rocana dasa little revelation, you should be partying.
Haribol
George A. Smith says ; ” ….. The best the Rtviks have is a logical inference and if they are smart enough, the brain power to discern the guru-tattva that supports it, a soft sell that over time may win the world but they instead go out and try to hard sell it with a damn you if you don’t attiude if you hum or hah about accepting it, that and an avid an eager willingness to talk crap about you. ”
Does Guru Tattva supports ” ACCEPTING and REJECTING ” or ” Hard Sell or Soft Sell ” as George describes in his comments ?
What Guru Tattva says :
” In the Bhagavad-gita the verse vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, in connection with that verse, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his commentary that we should take up the words from the spiritual master as our life and soul. We should try to carry out the instruction, the specific instruction of the spiritual master, very rigidly, without caring for our personal benefit or loss.”
(Srila Prabhupada lecture, December 9, 1968, Los Angeles) “.
George, where does Srila Prabhupada says and instructs of Hard sell or Soft sell / Accepting and Rejecting in the Guru Tattva you are talking about ?
George, does Srila Prabhupada not ask to all His Devotees to carry out the instruction, the specific instruction of the Spiritual Master, VERY RIGIDLY, without caring for our personal benefit or loss ?
Why are you introducing your own concept of Hard Selling or Soft Selling, creating a CONFUSION in the mind of the Readers ?
What is your PERSONAL Benefit or Loss introducing such HYPOCRISY in your every writing ?
Hope you answer these questions, George.
I have heard many times how Prabhupada stated lower and middle level devotees can initiate. However when you look at the volume of Prabhupada quotes on guru this one quote represents a very-tiny percentage, and yet reins as one of the most ‘quoted guru quotes’ of all time! (I’m always a bit suspicious when the exception becomes the rule).
Of course we accept what Srila Prabhupada wrote about lower and middle level guru’s to be correct. Srila Prabhupada also said his guru feed his God-brothers grains on Ekadasi and sent them out to preach, but generally that’s not what the followers of A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada do. Actually if you read works of the previous Acarya’s, and the various Scripture, you realize we – the followers of Srila Prabhupada – don’t follow ‘everything’ stated or ‘everything’ that others followed. We follow Srila Prabhupada.
So when I’m told HDG said lower and middle devotees can become guru’s I have to ask, was/is it Srila Prabhupada’s intention to fill up his Movement, (Iskcon or Iskcon As It Is) with these low and middle grade guru’s?
And when I’m told HDG said lower and middle devotees can become guru’s I also ask myself, was/is it Srila Prabhupada’s intention to be replaced as the ‘primary transmitter of divya-jnana’ by these low and middle grade guru’s?
So then I’m thinking; if HDG actually wanted the qualification for being a guru in his Iskcon to be a low or middle level type then why didn’t Srila Prabhupada name some of these low/mid devotees as successor guru’s once he was gone? If Srila Prabhupada’s intention was to follow the low/middle level guru option, (rather than reserving that role strictly for pure souls) then surely he would have said something? I understand he may not have seen any 100% pure devotees within his young followers at the time, but if everyone’s saying lower and middle devotees can be gurus in Iskcon then there must be some evidence that this is what Srila Prabhpada also wanted? (otherwise it’s just speculation, interpretation or ‘leading the witness’). We all know Srila Prabhupada took the time to write up a list of eleven devotees to initiate on his behalf as ritvik priests, but where is the low/mid level initiating guru’s recommendation list?
So I hear what others are saying they think Prabhupada meant about low/mid guru’s being permitted into Iskcon, but I’d rather hear it directly from HDG. Yes Srila Prabhupada said lower and middle devotees can become guru’s, but where is the evidence Srila Prabhupada wanted to flood his Movement with such guru’s?
Surya Narayana das – NZ mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Hare Krsna Surya Narayana prabhu,
As I previously posted>>> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati on Diksa.
On the morning of Wednesday, August 8th 1934, Sriyukta Rajendranath Pal Chaudhuri Mahasaya, the famous Zamindar of Louhajang, came to Sri Gaudiya Matha accompanied by one of his employees. Offering his humble dandavats at the lotus feet of Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, he expressed his desire to hear some words on Sri Guru-tattva and the secret of diksa etc. Srila Prabhupada obligingly gave a valuable discourse for two hours.
Here Srila Bhaktisiddhanta clearly states the madhyama-adhikari can ONLY perform the ‘initial duties of diksa’ ie ritvik ceremonial function!
Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.
“So that is the real preaching, selling books. Who can speak better than the books? At least whoever buys, he will look over. If you have to sell books, do it by hook or by crook. The real preaching is selling books. You should know the tactic how to sell without irritating. What your lecture will do for three minutes, but if he reads one page his life may be turned. (S.P.L. to Bali Marden 30th September 1972)”
Surya das:I have heard many times how Prabhupada stated lower and middle level devotees can initiate
Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada did NOT use the word INITIATE for the middle and lower class devotees.
He did use the word “CAN have disciples”. Kanistha and Madhyama can NOT TRANSFER Krsna into your HEART (Diksa). BUT they CAN have disciples BUT it is NOT recommended.
When Krsna is TRANSFERED into your HEART from MAHA BHAGAVATA(Srila Prabhupada) you SEE Krsna and YOUR SVARUP (Constitutional position) is REALIZED this is DIFFERENT from the FORMALITY of 1st and 2nd initiation.
Regards ISKCON there is ONLY ONE INITIATOR : the MAHA BHAGAVATA Srila Prabhupada but the FORMALITY of 1st and 2nd initiation CAN be given ON HIS BEHALF. The disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s.
Diksa can ONLY be given by MAHA BHAGAVATA. Details explained fully:
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
Surya das:We all know Srila Prabhupada took the time to write up a list of eleven devotees to initiate on his behalf as ritvik priests, but where is the low/mid level initiating guru’s recommendation list?
Mahesh: they are all CONMEN MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUNCH OF THUGS. They are ENVIOUS of Srila Prabhupada’s unique positon of Diksa guru in ISKCON and ALL disciples initiated are Srila Prabhupada’s.
This is to clarify:
1)The Madhyama and Kanistha CAN accept disciples. BUT it is NOT recommended. AND— they are NOT Diksa Guru. Diksa Guru is MAHA BHAGAVATA:
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
2) For a Madhyama and Kanistha to accept disciples is NOT recommended:
“under my order: guru hana – become a spiritual master”
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=40622#more-40622
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3) The 3rd Offence in chanting is to DISOBEY the Spiritual master so in EITHER case if one becomes a spiritual master without being QUALIFIED as Uttama Adhikari(Maha-Bhagavata) he will be committing offense and if he accepts one who is NOT QUALIFIED to Uttama adhikari stage he will commit offense in the chanting of the holy name. In BOTH cases their spiritual life is FINISHED!
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and the uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. THEREFORE A DISCIPLE SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO ACCEPT AN UTTAMA-ADHIKARI AS A SPIRITUALMASTER.” (Purport, Nectar of Instruction)
Note: MAHABHAGAVATA (Diksa Guru) “ONLY such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru”
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
Mahesh Raja says:
“1)The Madhyama and Kanistha CAN accept disciples. BUT it is NOT recommended.”
An example of this is given in EJTOP:
(EJTOP original Indian ed.)
Classroom monitor was a stop-gap system used in British and Indian schools to maintain classroom functions in the absence of the teacher. The monitor was a responsible pupil respected both by the teacher and fellow pupils who would be capable of helping students with some difficulties they may have in the teachers absence. It’s obviously not recommended on a permanent basis due to the lack of qualification & experience of the monitor student.
Ironically Rocana’s ally BVKS supported this position in a letter to VVR in 1990:
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/BVKSerror.htm
IRM comments:
To the blind men, the ”one eyed” man is king!
George writes: “For example both Rocana dasa and I accept Srila Prabhupadas assurance that a lower and middle level devotee can initiate”.
Now let’s look at what Srila Prabhupada actually says:
Firstly Srila Prabhupada provides us with evidence from sadhu Rupa Goswami that we need to discriminate in our selection of guru, “In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī”.
Then he gives clear warning of the ‘uttama-imitation’ guru mentality we’ve seen too much of already in Iskcon. “The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform”.
Prabhupada then points out the result of accepting someone less than qualified, stating that you CANNOT advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under such a persons “insufficient guidance”. Hardly an ‘assurance’ (noun 1. a positive declaration intended to give confidence; a promise.)
By no stretch of the imagination can I extract from his purport that Srila Prabhupada is giving any assurance, blessing, instruction, guidance or otherwise that his Iskcon should become populated with ‘insufficient guides who cannot help disciples advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life’. That would be inconsistent with everything His Divine Grace stood for, and worked so hard to establish. Prabhupada’s rallying cry for us to take up spiritual life has always been, “Back home, back to Godhead”, (since 1944 in fact). So why would HDG desire a system of impure guru’s who he already tells us will impede that progress? It makes no sense. Actually NOWHERE does Prabhupada push such a system,… this was all introduced after his physical departure by his students left to their own devices.
Finally in the very last line the loyal follower of Srila Prabhupada receives the founder Acarya’s clear, definitive instruction on what he expects of both guru and disciple, “Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master” – Nectar of Instruction 5 pp.
Even though this ‘instruction’ is there in black and white as our reference for the next 10,000 years these low/mid guru proponents would have us believe Prabhupada wants Iskcon filled with kaniṣṭha and madhyama guru’s.
NB: Dictionary- verb dis·tort
: to change the natural, normal, or original shape, appearance, or sound of (something) in a way that is usually not attractive or pleasing
: to change (something) so that it is no longer true or accurate
Yes Surya prabhu, the operative word in the NOI purport you quoted is THEREFORE!
Chambers 20th Century Dictionary “therefore = for that reason”
Simple logic would read…
I have mentioned several negatives in a process, THEREFORE (for that reason) don’t do it. Now I give you the positive alternative, ‘accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.’ How clear did His Divine Grace have to make it! As confirmed by all the bonafide Vaisnava acaryas.
So many bogus ‘munis’, so many bogus conclusions by the duratmas! So for the big cheaters, there is always an enthusiastic audience of cheated to exploit!
हरे कृष्ण
Yhs, Bal.
Thanks Balarama prabhu.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari : To the blind men, the ”one eyed” man is king!
Mahesh: More EXACT is – blind leading the blind. HOW is it that he APPEARED? The man is a CONDITIONED soul :
http://www.bvks.com/about/his_holiness/biography/
It says, “His Holiness Bhakti Vikasa Swami appeared in this world in 1957 in England. He joined the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) in London in 1975 and was initiated in that year with the name Ilapati dasa…”
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. THEN BOTH OF THEM WILL TO GO TO HELL, LIKE BLIND MEN LEADING THE BLIND.
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Note: Srila Prabhupada used to add title “Swami” to the sannyasi’s former names. These people in ISKCON they CHANGE their former names like above from Illapati to Bhakti Vikasa:
SB 1.6.13 P Conversation Between Narada and Vyasadeva
It is the duty of a mendicant (parivrajakacarya) to experience all varieties of God’s creation by traveling alone through all forests, hills, towns, villages, etc., to gain faith in God and strength of mind as well as to enlighten the inhabitants with the message of God. A sannyasi is duty-bound to take all these risks without fear, and the most typical sannyasi of the present age is Lord Caitanya, who traveled in the same manner through the central Indian jungles, enlightening even the tigers, bears, snakes, deer, elephants and many other jungle animals. IN THIS AGE OF KALI, SANNYASA IS FORBIDDEN FOR ORDINARY MEN. ONE WHO CHANGES HIS DRESS TO MAKE PROPAGANDA IS A DIFFERENT MAN FROM THE ORIGINAL IDEAL SANNYASI. One should, however, take the vow to stop social intercourse completely and devote life exclusively to the service of the Lord. The change of dress is only a formality. Lord Caitanya did not accept the name of a sannyasi, AND IN THIS AGE OF KALI THE SO-CALLED SANNYASIS SHOULD NOT CHANGE THEIR FORMER NAMES, FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF LORD CAITANYA.
Surya dasa writes:
George writes: “For example both Rocana dasa and I accept Srila Prabhupadas assurance that a lower and middle level devotee can initiate”.
Now let’s look at what Srila Prabhupada actually says:”
After this however Surya dasa manages to leave out entirely from his comment what Srila Prabhupada actually says on the matter, which is:
” A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. NOI 5″
Probably Surya das left this out to strengthen his argument or because he finds it so offensive to his sensibilities that even when these are the very words of His Divive Grace he will not listen to or repeat them and would rather attribute them to the minds of material conditioned souls, like himself and make of them a lie rather than the truth that Srila Pravhupada proclaims them to be.
.
While I agree that Srila Prabhupada does not advocate this practice and explains very clearly why one should choose to reject it, the fact of the matter is that it exists as a concession, I believe. Pure devotees of Krsna, after all, do not grow on trees. In fact they seem to be a vanishing breed and if you can find one in a million you are very, very lucky. In rural India where this has been going on since before the 1960’s, I believe and is still in pracctice even today, realistically speaking (and Srila Prabhupada was a great realist) one did not generally travel outside of ones community for the selection of ones guru, did not go beyond their own street if they could help it, whichj is probabl;y why everyone hasn’t already donme back home to Godhead.
But the alternative to continuing this permission to this practice would be to damn them all to Hell, something that Srila Prabhupada wasn’t particularly interested in doing. The permission that Srila Prabhupada is giving here did not start with him and he is not stopping it, only telling us the results that one can expect from such a practice and placing some interesting restrictions on it. I would be interested in learning as to whether these restrictions originated with him for if they did then this is suggestive that they are not part of the permission for the continuance of this practice among the general masses that have been accepting lower to mid level devotees as their gurus for thousands of years but that it is a supplement directed at his own disciples in which case it could be seen as an acceptance for them to begin this practice after his dissapearance. Srila Prabhupadas comments that such gurus and disciples must be upon the same level suggest a different dynamic than the typical guru disciple relationship employs where the guru is recognized to be obviously upon the higher platform. Don’t look at me, ask yourselves if ISKCON and Rocana can market this. I don;t think so but they maty not be thinking to clearly.
Surya wants to make it seem that I am an advocate of this practice of accepting lower to middle class disciples as ones spiritual master. I am not, but then again I spent all the time from when I was 14 until I was 22 activly searching for a qualified spiritual master and in the end Lord Ktsna led me to Srila Prabhupadas lotus feet. Om the other hand I doubt that most people have the time or inclination himself to make such a search or to go study a prospective guru for a year as is recommended before one formally accepts him. This is the 21st century and I just don’t see much of this happening.
Even though if they did how many can tell the difference between kanistha and madhyama level devotee, what to speak of an uttana ahikari through such a study, most people haven’t the education her the time or quite frankly the ability to make such a discrimination. Take for instance Rocana dasa who had to be close to Habsadutta for years before he could even disciminaste that he was an alcoholic and still it took the crazy bastiches firing a gun off next to his head to finally wake Rocan up completely to the fact that Hansaduta dasa waas about as spiritually qualified as a pig, probably less.
, One has to depend upon Krsna to show you in the end, but you can’t just set by on your hands and do nothing, Sincerely you must be searching and once you accept someone as whatever you accept them to be you stop searching them.
In the country of the blind the one eyes man is king as Sudarsana pointed out, This is not so entirely as Narayana Maharaja found out for when there are other one eyed men and women out there besides yourself, ones who remember the king and who still serve him with love and devotion and they can see what the one eyed man is doing, how he is trying to manipulate and take advantage they may rise up and block your way to the true kings throne.
The middle class devotee is bot entirely spiritually blind, Indeed he can see for miles and miles but he cannot see that deeply into your heat so as to conduct you, step by step all the way home back home to Godhead. He may walk with you a little ways but where he must lead you is to no other place than to the feet of an uttama adhikari, your actual spiritual master who can take you every step of the way all the way back home to Krsna. That is his duty but madhyama-sdhikari is conditioned soul and sometimes he gets frustrated and maybe even a little envious seeing so many things like lunatics and alcoholics leading you and bblind himself to other things like that his old friend was really really really Guru. However high he may climb up he has that far also he may fall, even lower sometimes. You accept his siksa you owe him nothing, just thanks and goodbye, be off with you, back ho,e to Godhead. You feel grattitude, pay it forward, give them Krsna. But if you accept him as your guru it may become a question of who will carry who, of the child having to become the parent and such a situation alone is not very good for your advancement or his.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna
Actually George, all I did was quote you and then quote Srila Prabhupada. We all see spiritual matters from different angles, and that part of the purport inspired me. It could be said that you also ‘leave out entirely’ from your comment many words of Srila Prabhupada on guru-tattva that don’t support your argument,… so let’s be honest and tar with the same brush. I quoted Srila Prabhupada’s words,.. say what you like about me but that quote is true and very clear, “Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master” — Nectar of Instruction 5 pp
Sadly George you seem unable to engage in meaningful debate without making up stuff about your opponent. You say, “Probably Surya das left this out,….” What a big speculation,..”Probably” Ha! You’ve never met me and remain thousands of miles away yet you ‘create’ my personality in your mind and then present it in a public forum. You go on to say, ” because he finds it so offensive to his sensibilities that even when these are the very words of His Divine Grace he will not listen to or repeat them”. Geeze, you’re actually telling others what I find offensive, and what I do and don’t listen to or discuss. Really George? I always thought knowing the heart of another was reserved for God and His pure devotees. So are you God, a pure devotee,…. or are you just making stuff up?
“Surya wants to make it seem that I am an advocate of this practice of accepting lower to middle class disciples as ones spiritual master.”
See you don’t have a clue what Surya wants to make anyone ‘seem’ like. I simply quoted you and then quoted Srila Prabhupada. It is absolutely in line with the subject of Rocan’s new Constitution and the question, what is the qualification of guru? Perhaps if you don’t want to be quoted then don’t write on public forums. It’s not rocket-science.
But wait, now you go in for the kill, telling everyone I’m a conditioned soul, and then stir up a bit of good old propaganda, (“their all Communists who want to take over America”) with the accusation that it could just be that Surya’s trying to make Prabhupada’s words into lies, “and would rather attribute them to the minds of material conditioned souls, like himself and make of them a lie rather than the truth that Srila Prabhupada proclaims them to be”.
You don’t actually know me from Adam. I could be waaay better than you say, or faaar worse. The point is, you don’t know me! The funny thing is every time you do speculate about me it’s always with a put-down, which of course makes you appear on a higher, superior level. I see this mentality play out again and again when someone thinks because they are older they must be senior oand automatically superior. It’s just a bullying tactic, and as they say, bullies are usually always cowards. Interestingly enough you’ve never speculated me in the ‘up’
You’re imagination is always pulling down, making others appear inferior to you. I wonder what in your nature drives you to do this? You talk of being a soldier, a ksatriya, but where is the valour in making up silly little stories about others? Why don’t you stand up and debate this like a man George? If you’ve got some counter points then present them and let’s go toe to toe. Even children are taught that put-downs are a low-class way of interacting with others, so if you think you can modify your behaviour and drop the bullying and the making up crap then I’m happy to debate this issue with you.
“It’s not because one man is older than me therefore he’ll be greater devotee, no.” – Srila Prabhupada 19 Feb 1976 Mayapur.
Surya das : “It’s not because one man is older than me therefore he’ll be greater devotee, no.” — Srila Prabhupada 19 Feb 1976 Mayapur.
Mahesh: I can remember one time these “Senior” devotees in Temples used to BARK at devotees “Who is YOUR authority”. They were Sooooo ARROGANT. After the Ritvik papers were distributed in MASS quantity this fever has somewhat subsided. Here is what Srila Prabhupada our ***THE*** SENIOR AUTHORITY devotee says:
SB 6.7.33 P Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
It is said, vrddhatvam vayasa vina: one may be senior without being advanced in age. EVEN IF ONE IS NOT OLD, ONE GAINS SENIORITY IF HE IS SENIOR IN KNOWLEDGE. Visvarupa was junior in relationship to the demigods because he was their nephew, but the demigods wanted to accept him as their priest, and therefore he would have to accept obeisances from them. The demigods explained that this should not be a cause for hesitation; he could become their priest because he was advanced in Vedic knowledge.
73-08-23. Letter: Tamala Krsna
N.B. I have received one complaint from Indian devotee at Mayapur Prabharupa Das Brahmacari that he is mal treated by our American devotees. Kindly inquire into this matter and do the needful. Either Indian or foreign whoever joins us they are not under any obligation, our only tie is Love of Godhead. IT SHOULD BE OUR DEFINITE POLICY THAT NOBODY IS ILL TREATED THAT HE MAY GO AWAY. WE RECRUIT A PERSON TO JOIN US AFTER SPENDING GALLONS OF BLOOD. EVERYONE COMES FOR REFORMATION, YOU CANNOT EXPECT EVERYONE TO BE PERFECT, RATHER IT IS OUR DUTY TO MAKE EVERYONE PERFECT AS FAR AS POSSIBLE. SO WE SHALL BE VERY MUCH CAUTIOUS AND CAREFUL IN THIS CONNECTION.
Thanks Mahesh prabhu,
sadly the majority of devotees I’ve known through the post-Acarya years who once gave life and soul to Prabhupada’s Movement have also gone away due to ill treatment.
Srila Prabhupada says “it should be our definite policy that nobody is ill treated”. So you might expect those who consider themselves the ‘most senior’ devotees would also be the ones following Prabhupada’s instructions and policies “the most’?
“ So many bogus ‘munis’, so many bogus conclusions by the duratmas! So for the big cheaters, there is always an enthusiastic audience of cheated to exploit!”
I am no muni Balaram das, I an a book distributor, but as a book distributor you end up listening to a lot of people, both the dull and ignorant along with great scientist and university professors, some of whom may even be so patient as to tell you what they admire about your spiritual master or what bothers them about you and your religion or just the type of cult which to them you represent. True you can just walk off mumbling the prayers to Lord Nrsingadeve under your breath but that doesn’t really help to empty your book bag and doesn’t teach you the twin virtues of patience and humility, so while your learning to be patient and waiting for the rush, you also learn to listen and in the course of this some of the things that you learn, such as how to rebuild a jet engine or construct a proper syllogism may come in handy to you in your service, by and by:
Balaram states:
“Yes Surya prabhu, the operative word in the NOI purport you quoted is THEREFORE!
Chambers 20th Century Dictionary “therefore = for that reason”
Simple logic would read…
“I have mentioned several negatives in a process, THEREFORE (for that reason) don’t do it. Now I give you the positive alternative, ‘accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.’ How clear did His Divine Grace have to make it! As confirmed by all the bonafide Vaisnava acaryas.”
Balaram dasa
In simple logic arguments are constructed of premises or proofs, inferences are drawn from those proofs and conclusions are based upon the inferences, If we examine your argument closely however it appears that you base it upon a faulty premise which consists of classifying a positive value as being a negative one.
Lets look at Srila Prabhupadas statement, the elements of which you are qualifying:
From the purport to Nectar of Instruction verse 5:
.”One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
Srila Prabhupada does indeed say that the disciples of such gurus (lower to middle class devotees)
“cannot“advance very far” but that is nor rthe same thing as saying that they cannot advance at all which would represent a negative value. They can advance and what does Lord Krsna say in Bhagavad Gita about making even a little advancement upon the path of devotional service? That even a little advance can go a long way.
“In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.” BG 2:40
Srila Prabhupada continues from his purport:
“Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent, whereas in material activity without a hundred percent success there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was a hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (1.5.17):
tyaktvā sva-dharmaḿ caraṇāmbujaḿ harer
bhajann apakvo ‘tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiḿ
ko vārtha āpto ‘bhajatāḿ sva-dharmataḥ
“If someone gives up his occupational duties and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?” Or, as the Christians say, “What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?”
Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries a person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.” BG 2: 40
A positive value that is proportionate is still a positive value and is not thusly rendered into a negative simply by being of a lesser proportion to a greater positive value, no more than half a cup of milk can be called an empty cup or thrown out because it is not filled to the brim. Still there is something wholesome and nourishing in it.
Even if your argument was logically valid Balarama das, it is demonstrably wrong, because its first premise is false and a simple logical analysis has been enough to reveal this error thankfully, since an argument based on false premises can be much more difficult to refute or even talk about if the falsity of the premise goes undetected and the truth of it is instead assumed.
Here is your argument again with the faulty premise at the forefront.
““I have mentioned several negatives in a process, THEREFORE (for that reason) don’t do it. Now I give you the positive alternative, ‘accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.’ How clear did His Divine Grace have to make it! As confirmed by all the bonafide Vaisnava acaryas.”
We are told by Srila Prabhupada not to think of ourselves as being so advanced as to know the mind of the pure devotee of Krsna, to read his thoughts and interpret him and yet here we seem to see Balaram dasa slipping into Srila Prabhupada’s persona, in fact he speaks of himself as if he were Srila Prabhupada twice (although no doubt he will deny doing so and claim that that was not what he meant). Even if he debies this It should however be clear to anyone reading Balarams comments how perfectly sure he is that he understands the mind of Srila Prabhupada and feels at that he is in complete accord with Srila Prabhupada or that Srila Prabhupada is in complete accord with him and that he feels so sure about himself in doing this he feels smug and speaks disdainfully of others who are not as in tune with Srila Prabhupdas mind as he.
Since Balaram doesn’t offer us anything other than a conclusion based upon a faulty premise of an erroneous argument, once we have discovered this he leaves us no other option but to move on to consider other explanations as to why Srila Prabhupada did not ban kanistha and madhyama adhkihari devotees from accepting disciples altogether.
Tarko pratsithant – Logic affords no standing –Vedanta Sutra
In Sri Jivas-tattva sandharba he quotes from the Vedanta Sutra to show that the idea that one can come to the Absolute Truth simply through logical conjecture is, simply in itself fallacious reasoning. This is due to the fact that any logical argument can always be defeated by another, and so on and so on and round and round and round on and on and round and round and round. There is a name for this that is straigt out uf Krsnabook. It refers to something that lifts you very high, high up, spins you around and then dashes you down, the Trinavata, the whirlwind of circular argument. Thus Bhaktivinode Thakur encourages us to both shun the idle critic and shy away from inconclusive argument.
A kanistha or middle level devotee can accept disciples, even though they shouldn’t if the person being initiated wants to go all the way back home, back to Godhead, but what if they don’t. WhT if they want to make a little advancement, enough lets say to stop them from going to Hell, enough lets say to elevate them to the heavenly planets or enough lets say to gaurente in their next life a human birth in a prosperous family or a family of devotees? Should such as they seek out an uttama adhikari and having revealed to jim what they honestly want would he still accept them? And if they are not hnest and he accepts them at their word and then later, later on what they really want takes hold of them and they break every vow they ever made to him. What if in their pent up frustration and envy they even begin to think of him as a common man, even as being in the way of them and then what if they murder him, rape and rob his children and then drive them out of their fathers house to perish in the wilderness, is this a positive value or might Krsna decide that another pure devotee of his should never take birth on this planet again? Perhaps Rtvik is Krsnas arrangement simply for keeping pure devotees out of our reach?
Surya das writes:
” Really George? I always thought knowing the heart of another was reserved for God and His pure devotees. So are you God, a pure devotee,…. or are you just making stuff up?
Surya If you think that only God and his pure devotees know when your B.S. ing, you must think your really good.
How is mentioning that your a conditioned soul “going for the kill” What;s the matter, did you forget?
George, I say it once again, this character assassination is a low class way of dealing. I quote SP NOI and you respond by saying I’m B.S.ing. This reminds me of the States telling the world there were weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East but never being able to provide any proof. Give a dog a bad name and then hang it – cheap trick.
I challenge you to prove to this conditioned soul where within the quotes I provide from HDG I am B.S.ing? Could it be you’re simply bluffing George, making up your own B.S. about others?
I said you went in for the kill because you say “and make of them a lie rather than the truth that Srila Prabhupada proclaims them to be”. You allude to me being a liar, and now in your latest writing you say outright that I’m B.S.ing. These are some pretty heavy accusations mate, and typical of the bullying tactics we’ve heard of about puffed up so called senior devotees who think they are better than everyone else and can say any damn thing they like. As quoted above “IT SHOULD BE OUR DEFINITE POLICY THAT NOBODY IS ILL TREATED”. Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples not to ill treat others. Srila Prabhuada did not tolerate this type of ignorance. I experience your comments as low class bully-boy tactics filled with ignorant speculations and dishonest attempts at character assassination. Prove otherwise and I’ll happily apologize if I’ve misunderstood.
So let’s see what this senior book distributor does,…..
George A Smith: Srila Prabhupada does indeed say that the disciples of such gurus (lower to middle class devotees) “cannot“advance very far” but that is nor rthe same thing as saying that they cannot advance at all which would represent a negative value. They can advance and what does Lord Krsna say in Bhagavad Gita about making even a little advancement upon the path of devotional service? That even a little advance can go a long way.
“In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.” BG 2:40
Mahesh: Let us analyse the BG 2.40 that George has provided in a PROPER CONTEXT:
The MOST dangerous type of fear is: A PERSON WHO IS NOT PROPERLY INITIATED CAN DESCEND AGAIN INTO THE ANIMAL SPECIES.”
George is missing the MAIN point: Kanistha and Madhyama are NOT Diksa Guru. Maha Bhagavata is DIKSA GURU: THE ONLY ONE WHO IS ABLE TO TRANSFER Krsna in the HEART of a devotee (“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his TRANSCENDENTAL knowledge AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY) . The BONAFIDE Diksa Guru (Mahabhagavata) initiated devotee does NOT descend AGAIN into ANIMAL SPECIES: WHEN Krsna is TRANSFERED in the heart of a devotee he CAN see Krsna AND his RELATIONSHIP(Svarupa) is REVEALED (dasya-servant, sakhya friendship etc). When you SEE the SUN you SIMULTANEOUSLY SEE YOURSELF: Self Realization. Sinful REACTIONS are VANQUISHED when ONE is THIS platform THIS is WHY one does NOT descend into ANIMAL species. THIS is WHY Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru.
Note: Since the Karma (Sinful Reactions) are BURNED OFF when one has got his SVARUPA there is NO MORE descending into ANIMAL SPECIES:
Bg 4.37 T Transcendental Knowledge
yathaidhamsi samiddho ‘gnir
bhasmasat kurute ‘rjuna
jnanagnih sarva-karmani
bhasmasat kurute tatha
SYNONYMS
yatha–just as; edhamsi–firewood; samiddhah–blazing; agnih–fire; bhasmasat–turns into ashes; kurute–so does; arjuna–O Arjuna; jnana-agnih–the fire of knowledge; sarva-karmani–all reactions to material activities; bhasmasat–to ashes; kurute–it so does; tatha–similarly.
TRANSLATION
As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.
PURPORT
PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF SELF AND SUPERSELF AND OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS COMPARED HEREIN TO FIRE. THIS FIRE NOT ONLY BURNS UP ALL REACTIONS TO IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, BUT ALSO ALL REACTIONS TO PIOUS ACTIVITIES, TURNING THEM TO ASHES. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. But knowledge of the constitutional position of the living entity burns everything to ashes. When one is in complete knowledge, all reactions, both a priori and a posteriori, are consumed. In the Vedas it is stated, ubhe uhaivaisa ete taraty amrtah sadhv-asadhuni: “One overcomes both the pious and impious interactions of work.”
1) Kanistha and Madhyama DO NOT give DIKSA. ONLY Mahabhagavata GIVES Diksa. However the FORMALITY of 1st and 2nd Initiation CAN be given by RITVIK Representative of Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada as per his ORDER July 9th 1977:
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
2) Formality Initiation is ALSO NOT a guarantee for descending into ANIMAL species. BECAUSE one STILL has to FOLLOW the DISCIPLINE from Srila Prabhupada in ORDER to ADVANCE to REALIZE Krsna and HIS RELATIONSHIP (Svarupa):
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43453#more-43453
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his TRANSCENDENTAL knowledge AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.” The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:
dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu
yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu
tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu
nadhikaro ‘sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam
“Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly.”
According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:
adiksitasya vamoru
krtam sarvam nirarthakam
pasu-yonim avapnoti
diksa-virahito janah
“UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER, ALL HIS DEVOTIONAL ACTIVITIES ARE USELESS. A PERSON WHO IS NOT PROPERLY INITIATED CAN DESCEND AGAIN INTO THE ANIMAL SPECIES.”
Note: BONAFIDE Spiritual master is Mahabhagavata:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
George A. Smith says ;
” Perhaps Rtvik is Krsnas arrangement simply for keeping pure devotees out of our reach?
You are writing the same always, chewing the chewed.
I have answered your question many times. Perhaps, you keep on IGNORING it.
Why ?
I guess your false egos block you not to accept of Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions of Ritvik Initiation.
A True Pure Devotee will have no CHOICE but simply to follow the same Ritvik Initiation Instructions of His predecessor Acaraya Srila Prabhupada who has not authorized any one His Successor in the Parampara as long as Srila Prabhupada’s VANI – Instructions remain in TACT fully available to every one on this planet earth.
Only then Shri Krishna Chaitanaya will take over , as Srila Prabhupada has said it.
Is it not TRUE ?
So, my friend, please I beg from you to get out of the deception of your false egos that blocks your understanding in accepting Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
As expected George stutters when it comes to a reply to my challenge. As Sudharsana prabhu pointed out, this man has already been defeated by me and it didn’t go unnoticed how he disappeared for a while after that, perhaps hoping it would all blow over and we would forge? So no surprise that all he can do now is bear false witness while dodging philosophical debate. I know he claims to have read all the Vedas, but I think if he could even just follow the Christian guide lines to decent human interaction it would be advantageous. At the very least we should strive to obtain the mode of goodness. To act in these other modes only ends in distress to ourselves and others. Anyway I’m sure George knows all this, having read the Vedas.
As I’ve said before, I feel it’s valuable to discuss and debate these issues from all angles and I’m happy to do that with anyone who can do so without the kind of childish behaviour we see George seems unable to rise above.
Surya Narayana das – NZ mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
“Thou shalt not bear false witness” forbids: “1. Speaking falsely in any matter, lying, equivocating, and any way devising and designing to deceive our neighbor. 2. Speaking unjustly against our neighbor, to the prejudice of his reputation.
Surya”So let’s see what this senior book distributor does,…..”
zzzzzzz
Mahesh writes:
George is missing the MAIN point: Kanistha and Madhyama are NOT Diksa Guru. Maha Bhagavata is DIKSA GURU: THE ONLY ONE WHO IS ABLE TO TRANSFER Krsna in the HEART of a devotee (“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his TRANSCENDENTAL knowledge AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY) . The BONAFIDE Diksa Guru (Mahabhagavata) initiated devotee does NOT descend AGAIN into ANIMAL SPECIES: WHEN Krsna is TRANSFERED in the heart of a devotee he CAN see Krsna AND his RELATIONSHIP(Svarupa) is REVEALED (dasya-servant, sakhya friendship etc). When you SEE the SUN you SIMULTANEOUSLY SEE YOURSELF: ”
And Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada say:
“In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.” BG 2:40
Srila Prabhupada continues from his purport:
“Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent, whereas in material activity without a hundred percent success there is no profit.::
The “next” beginning refers of course to one’s next life, so onme wjo make even a little advancement in devotional service begins his next life with the capability of beginning to begin devotional service from the point where he or she left off in their previous life. Since in animal condition one cannot perform devotional service this suggests that in ones next life that one will take their birth as a human being or as a demigod. Krsna isn’t cheap and certainly He isn’t miderly. Krsna wards liberation, the chiefmost aspiration of the mystic yogis as if it were the least expensive door prize to the least significant guest ay a party, even those who simply follow behind the Rathyatra cart of Lord Jaganatha get it, so Mahesh is obviously wromg here and is the one who is actually missing the point. Some will wonder why, some will not, some will not need to wonder. Below the paramarthic platform words are synbols manipulated by “game rules” and as such, many such statements as Mahesh makes can be seen as negotiation strategies. One onlt has to wonder then, what is Mahesh negotiating for?
George A. Smith says: Srila Prabhupada continues from his purport:
“Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work………. ”
With no any offence to your understanding, do you read the KEY words ” WITHOUT EXPECTATION OF SENSE GRATIFICATION ” which means free from any material desire, …. who simply follow behind the Rathyatra cart of Lord Jaganatha get it, ”
Where is the room for negotiation of what you say ;
” as such, many such statements as Mahesh makes can be seen as negotiation strategies. One onlt has to wonder then, what is Mahesh negotiating for?
ONE ONLY has to wonder then, what is George A. Smith negotiating for ?
George, are you going to mislead people with your DUPLICITY comments for the rest of your life ?
Where are you going with these NON-sense comments ?
Hope you do answer these questions.
George A. Smith: One onlt has to wonder then, what is Mahesh negotiating for?
Mahesh: George, just read – thanks! Karma has good results AND BAD results. As long as one is in the three modes of nature he is UNDER the LAWS OF KARMA. You can NOT deny this. If you perform BAD Karma you have to take that with you in your NEXT life ALSO. One who is on SUDDHA SATTAVA (PURE GOODNESS) is NOT under the Laws of Karma – they SEE Krsna. Karma is BURNED OFF. Yamaraja does NOT have Jurisdiction on THOSE sort of devotees. They have gained SVARUPA (relationship) Constitutional Position REALIZED. But those UNDER the THREE MODES can be SINFUL this means BAD Karma CAN RESULT in animal body.
BAD karma CAN lead one to a body of animals. Those that did some devotional service PREVIOUSLY and ARE NOW SINFUL changing Srila Prabhupada’s books, gave him Poison, stole his temples, beat up and drove away devotees WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT LOWER BODIES FOR PUNISHMENT. Their ENTIRE SPIRITUAL CAREER IS HALTED because of Vaisnava appradha:
Note: “SIMILARLY, IF ONE BECOMES LIKE A MAD ELEPHANT AND COMMITS OFFENSES AT THE LOTUS FEET OF A VAISNAVA, HIS ENTIRE SPIRITUAL CAREER IS HALTED”
SB 6.17.15 P Mother Parvati Curses Citraketu
One should be very careful not to commit offenses at the lotus feet of Vaisnavas, of whom Lord Siva is the best. While instructing Srila Rupa Gosvami, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu described an offense at the lotus feet of a Vaisnava as hati mata, a mad elephant. When a mad elephant enters a nice garden, it spoils the entire garden. SIMILARLY, IF ONE BECOMES LIKE A MAD ELEPHANT AND COMMITS OFFENSES AT THE LOTUS FEET OF A VAISNAVA, HIS ENTIRE SPIRITUAL CAREER IS HALTED. One should therefore be very careful not to commit offenses at the lotus feet of a Vaisnava.
SB 6.1.31 P The History of the Life of Ajamila
THE ORDER CARRIERS OF YAMARAJA HAVE JURISDICTION OVER ALL SINFUL LIVING ENTITIES, but the messengers of Lord Visnu, the Visnudutas, are capable of punishing anyone, including Yamaraja, if he wrongs a Vaisnava.
Note: AND IF YOU HAVE GOT A LITTLE PINCH OF MATERIAL DESIRES, THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT DIFFERENT TYPES OF BODY. IT WILL CREATE, NATURALLY. KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA. HE IS DESIRING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF PARTICULAR MODES OF NATURE, AND HE’S GETTING BODY.
751212mw.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, anyabhilasita-sunyam. Abhilas means desire. Anya means “except service of Krsna.” That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati. The mind and the senses; with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs…, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loka sanatana. He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Krsna comes and gives you good counsel. “You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection.” But he’ll not do that. And if he agrees then anyabhilasita-sunyam, all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. AND IF YOU HAVE GOT A LITTLE PINCH OF MATERIAL DESIRES, THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT DIFFERENT TYPES OF BODY. IT WILL CREATE, NATURALLY. KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA. HE IS DESIRING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF PARTICULAR MODES OF NATURE, AND HE’S GETTING BODY.
Harikesa: One has to be very careful.
Prabhupada: YES. OTHERWISE EVEN A DEVOTEE LIKE BHARATA MAHARAJA, HE HAD TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DEER. A LITTLE CARELESS. THEN NATURE’S LAW WILL ACT. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, “Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine.” This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you’ll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he’s not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you’ll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn’t care. If you say, “A dog does not obey this law,” that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don’t obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they’re having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you’ll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, “What is the wrong to become a dog?” So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog’s body. That is (Sanskrit). He’s thinking, “The dog’s life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street.” “Alright, you take dog’s body.” Yam yam va… Bhavam… ah, what is that?
Harikesa: Smaran bhavam.
Prabhupada: Ha. Tyajanty ante kalevaram.
Caitya-guru: Tam tam evaiti kaunteya.
Prabhupada: HA. “SO YOU ARE THINKING LIKE DOG, ALRIGHT YOU TAKE THE BODY OF A DOG.” AND FINISHED. YOUR HUMAN LIFE IS FINISHED. AND AGAIN WAIT FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS TO COME TO THE HUMAN FORM OF LIFE. NATURE’S LAW YOU CANNOT CHECK. DAIVI HI ESA GUNA-MAYI MAMA MAYA DURATYAYA. THE LAW IS THERE. THE SAME EXAMPLE, IF YOU CONTAMINATE SOME DISEASE, THE LAW IS YOU MUST SUFFER FROM THAT DISEASE. SO THEY ARE THINKING “FREE.” THAT IS THEIR GROSS IGNORANCE.
68-09-20. Letter: Satsvarupa
OUR RELATIONSHIP IS ETERNAL. BUT IF SOMEBODY LAGS BEHIND, SO IN SPITE OF OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP ONE MAY NOT MEET OTHER AT THE DESTINATION. Just like a flock of birds–although very intimately related, everyone of them has to fly in the sky by individual strength. If one is less strong, the other cannot keep him in the sky. That is the law of nature. So long everyone of us is strong in Krishna Consciousness, there is no doubt, you can fly in the spiritual sky and meet together without failure. Therefore, individual strength is most important.
Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 9, 1969:
“Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. THIS DEFYING MEANS TO DISCONNECT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. AND ANYONE WHO DEFIES AND THEREFORE DISCONNECTS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.”
Note: the Anti Ritvik bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus destination:
Isopanisad 12
THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–“One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
Note:the destination of Anti Ritvik bogus GBC rubber-stamped gurus and their CROOKS in partnership who stole Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, changed his books, stole temples, money:
KB 64 The Story of King Nrga
Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. THEREFORE I INSTRUCT YOU, ALL MY BOYS AND RELATIVES PRESENT HERE, DO NOT, EVEN BY MISTAKE, TAKE THE POSSESSION OF A BRAHMANA AND THEREBY POLLUTE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY. IF SOMEONE EVEN WISHES TO POSSESS SUCH PROPERTY, LET ALONE ATTEMPTS TO TAKE IT AWAY BY FORCE, THE DURATION OF HIS LIFE WILL BE REDUCED. HE WILL BE DEFEATED BY HIS ENEMIES, AND AFTER BEING BEREFT OF HIS ROYAL POSITION, WHEN HE GIVES UP HIS BODY HE WILL BECOME A SERPENT. A serpant gives trouble to all other living entities. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or cuts you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”
Thus Lord Krsna, who is always engaged in purifying the conditioned living entities, gave instruction not only to His family members and the inhabitants of Dvaraka, but to all the members of human society.
Note: IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES.
Original UNCHANGED CC Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Note: EVEN by realizing PARAMATMA a yogi can NOT go to Vaikuntha and these Anti Ritvik HOGS,DOGS, PIGS, ASSES who are NOT even able to communicate with PARAMATAMA want to be worshiped AS GOOD AS GOD (Diksa Guru) !!!! HOW can you have a Spiritual Master who God does NOT even talk to. Guru is TRANSPARENT VIA MEDIA so HOW are this Anti Ritvik CROOKS who are MONEY SCREWING and SLAVERY MAKING Transparent Via Media since EVEN the Paramatma does NOT talk to them? And—– these Anti Ritvik CROOKS want disciples!!!! Makes any sense?
Room Conversation
—
July 19, 1973, London
Revatinandana: That I understand. The question is suppose this yogi, he has not got full knowledge, he does not know of Krsna, and therefore he is meditating on Paramatma, and he attains Vaikuntha. Is it possible that because he hadn’t got full knowledge…
Prabhupada: No, he has to go, simply by Paramatma conception, he cannot go to Vaikuntha.
The Anti Ritvik PIGS want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru in ISKCON but look at the FACTS:
ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING GOONS CONDITIONED SOULS RUBBER-STAMPED AS DIKSA GURUS IN ISKCON CANNOT COMPARE WITH SRILA PRABHUPADA THE BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU.
THESE ANTI RITVIK GOONS ARE NOT ***QUOTED AS SASTRA*** BUT SRILA PRABHUPADA’S WORDS ARE ***QUOTED AS SASTRA*** BY ALL:
Srila Prabhupada’s instruction was coming DIRECTLY from Krsna. This is TRANSCENDENTAL platform. Srila Prabhupada encouraged his disciples however, to write their realizations.
Note:His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is ALWAYS consulting Krsna
760714iv.ny
Bali-mardana: In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Krsna tell you that this person should be in charge.
Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified.
Prabhupada: YES, BECAUSE A DEVOTEE ALWAYS CONSULTS KRSNA AND HE GIVES ORDER.
Interviewer: IT’S A MORE DIRECT COMMUNICATION.
Prabhupada: YES. AND HE GIVES ORDER.
Ramesvara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Krsna. So if I have some…
Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Krsna as well.
Ramesvara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Krsna has told me.
Prabhupada: NO, NOT NECESSARILY, KRSNA WILL TELL DIRECTLY. A DEVOTEE ALWAYS CONSULTS KRSNA AND KRSNA TELLS HIM, “DO LIKE THIS.” NOT FIGURATIVELY.
Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well?
Prabhupada: EVERYTHING. BECAUSE A DEVOTEE DOES NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT CONSULTING KRSNA.
Note: HIS DIVINE GRACE Srila Prabhupada speaks as Krsna speaks.
Antya 5.71
One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). When Ramananda Raya spoke to Pradyumna Misra, Pradyumna Misra could understand that Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary human being. A SPIRITUALLY ADVANCED PERSON WHO ACTS WITH AUTHORITY, AS THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, SPEAKS AS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD DICTATES FROM WITHIN. THUS IT IS NOT HE THAT IS PERSONALLY SPEAKING. WHEN A PURE DEVOTEE OR SPIRITUAL MASTER SPEAKS, WHAT HE SAYS SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS HAVING BEEN DIRECTLY SPOKEN BY THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IN THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM.
Note: difference is Srila Prabhupada speaks what Krsna speaks and so-called gurus have to jog the brain to give answers.
Adi 8.39 The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru
It is not possible for a common man to write books on bhakti, for his writings will not be effective. He may be a very great scholar and expert in presenting literature in flowery language, but this is not at all helpful in understanding transcendental literature. EVEN IF TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE IS WRITTEN IN FAULTY LANGUAGE, IT IS ACCEPTABLE IF IT IS WRITTEN BY A DEVOTEE, WHEREAS SO-CALLED TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE WRITTEN BY A MUNDANE SCHOLAR, EVEN IF IT IS A VERY HIGHLY POLISHED LITERARY PRESENTATION, CANNOT BE ACCEPTED. THE SECRET IN A DEVOTEE’S WRITING IS THAT WHEN HE WRITES ABOUT THE PASTIMES OF THE LORD, THE LORD HELPS HIM; HE DOES NOT WRITE HIMSELF. AS STATED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (10.10), DADAMI BUDDHI-YOGAM TAM YENA MAM UPAYANTI TE. SINCE A DEVOTEE WRITES IN SERVICE TO THE LORD, THE LORD FROM WITHIN GIVES HIM SO MUCH INTELLIGENCE THAT HE SITS DOWN NEAR THE LORD AND GOES ON WRITING BOOKS. KRSNADASA KAVIRAJA GOSVAMI CONFIRMS THAT WHAT VRNDAVANA DASA THAKURA WROTE WAS ACTUALLY SPOKEN BY LORD CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, AND HE SIMPLY REPEATED IT. The same holds true for Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami wrote Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in his old age, in an invalid condition, but it is such a sublime scripture that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja used to say, “The time will come when the people of the world will learn Bengali to read Sri Caitanya-caritamrta.” We are trying to present Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in English and do not know how successful it will be, but if one reads the original Caitanya-caritamrta in Bengali he will relish increasing ecstasy in devotional service.
Adi 8.72 The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru
To write about the transcendental pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not an ordinary endeavor. UNLESS ONE IS EMPOWERED BY THE HIGHER AUTHORITIES, OR ADVANCED DEVOTEES, ONE CANNOT WRITE TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE, FOR ALL SUCH LITERATURE MUST BE ABOVE SUSPICION, OR, IN OTHER WORDS, IT MUST HAVE NONE OF THE DEFECTS OF CONDITIONED SOULS, NAMELY, MISTAKES, ILLUSIONS, CHEATING AND IMPERFECT SENSE PERCEPTIONS. The words of Krsna and the disciplic succession that carries the orders of Krsna are actually authoritative. To be empowered to write transcendental literature is a privilege in which a writer can take great pride. As a humble Vaisnava, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, being thus empowered, felt very much ashamed that it was he who was to narrate the pastimes of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Adi 9.4 The Tree of Devotional Service
This is the process for writing transcendental literature. A SENTIMENTALIST WHO HAS NO VAISNAVA QUALIFICATIONS CANNOT PRODUCE TRANSCENDENTAL WRITINGS. There are many fools who consider krsna-lila to be a subject of art and write or paint pictures about the pastimes of Lord Krsna with the gopis, sometimes depicting them in a manner practically obscene. These fools take pleasure in material sense gratification, but one who wants to make advancement in spiritual life must scrupulously avoid their literature. UNLESS ONE IS A SERVANT OF KRSNA AND THE VAISNAVAS, AS KRSNADASA KAVIRAJA GOSVAMI PRESENTS HIMSELF TO BE IN OFFERING RESPECTS TO LORD CAITANYA, HIS ASSOCIATES AND HIS DISCIPLES, ONE SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO WRITE TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE.
Mahesh Raja says:
3. July 2015 at 10:54 pm
“Those that did some devotional service PREVIOUSLY and ARE NOW SINFUL changing Srila Prabhupada’s books, gave him Poison, stole his temples, beat up and drove away devotees WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT LOWER BODIES FOR PUNISHMENT.”\
Thank you for conceding my point Mahesh prabhu, which is again that devotional service is so powerful that even the little advancement that one may make as a disciple of a Kanistha or madhyma, lower to middle level is enough to protect one at the time of death from descent into Hell or into the lower species and also enough to assure them a human birth in their very next lifetime along with the opportunity to begin devotional service from the point that one left off of it in ones’ previous life and one may continue to advance from there.
PROVIDING of course, that they don’t MUCK IT UP. But that goes without saying. Since you have said it though let us just look at it closely within the context that we find it in in the preceding paragraph. Generally speaking we are not accustomed to thinking contextually and probabilistically but it sometimes helps me to see where things fit into place to do so. For instance the placement into context of Mahesh prabhus comment concerning the fate of those individuals who do muck it up shows clearly that one’s self spoiling of the opportunity to perform devotional successfully in one’s second go around cannot be in any way attributed to the process by which one has been given human birth and devotional service once again.
. Since a person may spoil his or her devotional service at any time and in any life by committing such offences and heinous crimes and may do so whether or not they are the disciple of a kanistha, madhyama or even an uttama adhikari pure devotee of Lord Krsna, I cannot see that Mahesh’s comments have any bearing or relevancy to the point being made above. In fact an argument could be made that Mahesh’s example strengthens the proposition that the devotional level of ones guru in one’s previous life is irrelevant since the claim itself made by Srila Prabhupada that one begins again in one’s next life at the exact same point where one left off in the last life that those finding themselves being the initiated disciples of a pure devotee of Krsna in this life time were also disciples of pure devotee gurus again in their immediate life time past.
So far I feel that we have come along way in understanding Srila Prabhupada’s NOI5 purport. Already it has been discovered that one needn’t even take formal initiation in order to advance to the level of a madhyama or middle level devotee and now this: We have discerned that even one who becomes the disciple of a lower to middle level guru may make enough advancement that he or she no longer needs to fear that death will rob him either of their humanity or of the opportunity in their next life to take up their devotional service once again from the same point that in their previous life they left off from it. That a kanistha or madhyama level devotee serving as guru can provide to his or her disciples such a valuable social service that is spiritually progressive, I feel goes a long way towards explaining why Srila Prabhupada did not out and out ban it.
From this later revelation it may also be suggested that in Rocana’s new order of things that Rocana’s choice to allow lower to middle class gurus and their disciples reflects a deep seated feeling of hopelessness and depression, as if he has selected to support the guru ship of lower to middle class devotees because he, like the Rtviks see no indication that any pure devotee exists in a physical manifestation at the present time. If this is so then the best that Rocana dasa’s New ISKCON is hoping for is to assure their members a human birth and the possibility to begin devotional service again in their next life because in this one, without a pure devotee of Krsna to take initiation from there is no other option and only a little advancement id possible.
Rocana dasa has however failed to prove his claim that the Rtviks are asiddhantic as I have shown in my DOR Defeat of Rocana and thusly has failed to support this conclusion which leads me to believe that Rocana’s mental calisthenics are shrouded in secrecy even from the adherents of his new system or in other words that what he actually hopes is implicit rather than explicit. Until Rocana can prove his claim that the Rtviks are asiddhantic (and he never will because he can’t because is founded upon non-sectarian guru tattva as Srila Prabhupada explained it) he will have to content himself with our just sending the folks his way who only want to make a little advancement in this life.There will be plenty I am sure and Rocana dasa will have only his own self to thank for his misery and unhappiness.
I have included the following for reference,
Verse 5 of the Nectar of Instruction, last paragraph of the purport:
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
In this corner we have ISKCON and Rocana with Nothing, less than nothing or not very and in this corner we have the Rtviks with Srila Prabhupada, need we say more?
Yes, now it is up to the Rtviks to prove that they do indeed have Srila Prabhupada in their corner and how can they do that? By not making “a little advancement, Concerts ben out for 15 minutes, gotta limp. All glories to Srila Prabhupadas. Hare Krsna.
George A. Smith says;
” That a kanistha or madhyama level devotee serving as guru can provide to his or her disciples such a valuable social service that is spiritually progressive, I feel goes a long way towards explaining why Srila Prabhupada did not out and out ban it. ”
Such a valuable Social service that which simply satisfies the individual senses for both of the Kanistha guru and his disciples for gratification, HOW it can be Spiritually PROGRESSIVE ?
How can you being a SANE person feel, George, that goes a long way towards explaining why Srila Prabhupada did not out and out ban it ?
Why are you feeling as such ?
Does it not indicate that George A. smith has his own personal motivated agenda in a delusional state of his mind when he comments as such to bewilder the innocent people ?
To bewilder the Readers further, George A. Smith very cunningly quotes from NOS Verse 5 purport which read as ;
” ………. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
George, my friend, do you read what it says in the above mentioned writing which reads CLEARLY ;
” ……………… and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well ………….. ”
What does the above line say, George ?
Cannot advance means NO ADVANCEMENT in the Spiritual Progress.
Make no mistake EVER, NEVER, as long as Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik Intiation Instructions – VANI remains available on this Planet EARTH, NO any Mahabhagavata will start His own disciplic Succession separately from Srila Prabhupada.
The Mahabhagavata in the future shall have no choice but to carry forward Srila Prabhupada’s INITIATION Instructions as Srila Prabhupada desires as long as Srila Prabhupada’s VANI remains available which please note.
It is not I am saying. It is Srila Prabhupada who is saying it in C.C. Adi 7.171.
Now you accept it or reject it. It is your choice.
But do not try ever to mislead innocent people away from Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions as long as you breathe.
I do not mean to hurt your feelings or offend you, George, but the TRUTH must be SPOKEN.
I look forward to hear your WISE comments.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhbupada.
“
Jaya Gaura Nitai
In NOI 5, Srila Prabhupada states the fact that any living entity has the natural and inherent capacity to discipline anyone else who accepts them as a teacher or guide. Due to the nature of the living force of consciousness and how it acts within the material deminar, this phenomenon is always occurring where 2 or more are gathered and literally cannot be avoided. As to the result of such interactions, that is always dependent upon the qualifications of the superior who assumes the responsibility. Srila Prabhupada also refers directly to this phenomenon in a lecture. vis-à-vis (EVERYBODY IS GUIDED BY SOMEBODY ELSE)
SB 5.5.18 — Vrndavana, November 6, 1976 : 761106SB.VRN :
So in the previous verse it has been described that kas taṁ svayaṁ tad-abhijño vipaścid. The guardian should be abhijñaḥ, and vipaścit, very learned. The government, the father, the guru, the teacher, or even husband of… Because we are guided, everyone is guided by somebody else. That is society. Not cats and dogs. Just like the cats and dogs, they give birth to the children and then they have no responsibility. The dogs are loitering in the street; nobody takes care. But human society should not be like that. There must be responsible guardians. The some of the responsible guardians are described here…
George Smith once refers to Srila Prabhupada’s words in NOI 5 as giving “concession”, and repeatedly as him giving “permission”. George also characterizes this phenomenon as permission “given prior” to Srila Prabhupada’s reiteration of such.
1. “Srila Prabhupdada does not revoke a permission that has existed within the broader context of the society since the disciplic succession;s line had first been broken”
2. “The permission that Srila Prabhupada is giving here did not start with him and he is not stopping it, only telling us the results that one can expect from such a practice and placing some interesting restrictions on it. I would be interested in learning as to whether these restrictions originated with him for if they did then this is suggestive that they are not part of the permission for the continuance of this practice among the general masses that have been accepting lower to mid level devotees as their gurus for thousands of years.”
George Smith is making this up as he goes along in an attempt to validate his particular angle of vision. Indeed the “permission” was first granted by MahaVisnu as he permits all Jivas to enjoy as lords in the material world. Therefore none, not even Prabhupada, can change or alter this phenomenon, only comment on its existence.
As Mahesh Raja points out, there is a vast difference between initiating and disciplining another. And Srila Prabhupada clearly uses the latter term to describe the relationship and for good reason.
According to the general definition of a neophyte, as well as the essential definition of Diksa, a neophyte is incapable of granting Diksa to anyone regardless of their ability to memorize and perform a formal Diksa ceremony.
Therefore, the discipline a neophyte is able to give to someone they accept as a disciple is only a superficial, material discipline. They can act only as a guide, and the word “insufficient” is very generous to describe the guidance they are able to give. Furthermore, according to the essential definition of “Guru”, the title Guru does not apply to such a person, except for the convenience of defining the role they are ATTEMPTING to fulfill, not one they are ABLE to fulfill properly.
Further along in the lecture cited above, Srila Prabhupada goes on to make this EXACT DISTINCTION.
SB 5.5.18 — Vrndavana, November 6, 1976 : 761106SB.VRN :
There must be responsible guardians. The some of the responsible guardians are described here…
First of all, guru. Either you take ordinary teacher in the school or colleges, they are also called guru, and the sublime guru is the spiritual master. Not only the spiritual master, but anyone who has taken the post of becoming guru to teach others, he must be very learned, very responsible,
ORDINARY GURU VS. SUBLIME GURU. SUBLIME GURU. SUBLIME GURU.
When we conceive of the many types of true, essential, or actual guru’s, or guides, such as father, teacher, husband or King, we find descriptions of the Madhyam giving discipline.
Bhagavad-gita 4.1-2 — Columbus, May 9, 1969 : 690509BG.COL : The father is responsible, the king is responsible, the teacher is responsible, the husband is responsible for development of spiritual life of their dependent. Bhāgavata says that “If you cannot develop the spiritual life of your dependent, then don’t become a spiritual master, don’t become a teacher, don’t become a father, don’t become a husband.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 — Johannesburg, October 22, 1975 : 751022SB.JOH :
Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature the father, the teacher, the king, they are advised to look upon them as God. This is for the common person. But when he is advanced, then he goes above, that there is God above father, above king, above teacher.
Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.5 — Los Angeles, January 2, 1974 : 740102SB.LA :
And another point is nṛdeva-cihna-dhṛk. Nṛdeva. Nṛ means “human being,” and deva means “God.” So the king is considered as God in the human society. Just see what should be the position of the king. And how much qualified he must be. Because a king is supposed to be the representative of God to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people. That is king’s duty. Therefore he’s called nṛdeva. Anyone who is trying for Kṛṣṇa, to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a representative of Kṛṣṇa, real representative. Therefore guru is offered the respect exactly like Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata **. Because he iskintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he’s the…, doing the most confidential service, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants everyone to surrender to Him, and the spiritual master is doing the same: “Please surrender to Kṛṣṇa.” Therefore he’s the most confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa. He should be honored as Kṛṣṇa. That is the duty of the king also. Everyone should come forward. The father, the mother, the king, the spiritual master. Upon whom the instruction of the disciples, of the subordinate wards, is depending, they should be all Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore it is said nṛdeva…, nṛdeva-cihna-dhṛk. And he was punished because, although he dressed himself like a king, but he had no responsibility. Therefore nṛdeva-cihna-dhṛk śūdrakaḥ. He was actually śūdra, and he was taking the place of a king. Therefore he should be punished. This is the duty of the government. Nobody can cheat. If you dress like such and such person, you must deal also honestly. Otherwise you will be punished. (More…)
So, Srila Prabhupada paints a picture here. And it is clear as a bell. Now, considering the arena wherein Srila Prabhupada is AUTHORIZED TO PERMIT OR NOT PERMIT one to do things, Iskcon, we already know what he permitted in regard to initiation. Ritvik. Which is actually the only way to guarantee that a person receive SPIRITUAL DIKSA from a SUBLIME GURU. And this in no way negates or restricts the ability of Srila Prabhupada’s advanced (uttama) disciples from granting Diksa! For following the order of the spiritual master is the essence of continuing the parampara. In my humble opinion, any disciple who finds themselves in the position to initiate on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf as a ritvik representative is during that moment acting as a pure transparent via medium, and in as much as the formal ceremony is necessary for the advancement of a particular individual, they are guaranteed to receive the full potency of the formality without the impediment of a neophyte or madhyama attempting to come between them and their ultimate goal by giving them the insufficient guidance by proclaiming themselves the sublime guru.
And of course, the temple president and/or perhaps the zonal ritvik himself, are to be considered the ultimate authority and “disciplinarian” of a newly initiated disciple, and can at any moment veer from the guidance suggested by Srila Prabhupada on any number of issues, and thus mislead the new disciple as the cheaters and cheated are wont to do. But in this case, the cheated has a better chance of recognizing the failure because they are instructed that Srila Prabhupada’s body of Vani is the ultimate authority for all other gurus in Iskcon, and that no Guru in Iskcon is ALLOWED to change anything. Thus having access to the same Vani as all others, they can themselves eventually hold their own Gurus accountable for mistakes!!
Therefore, what George Smith was referring to as a thousands of year old practice of lesser qualified persons giving Diksa was only lesser qualified persons giving FORMAL INITIATION CEREMONIES, NOT GIVING SPIRITUAL DIKSA, and also not being held to account because the truth was forgotten, not recorded, and thus not accessible to those who were cheated in order that they might eventually see the light.
This is why we must do whatever we can to wrestle the Bhaktivedanta Archives from the influence of Cheaters, or else the day could come that no one will know what Srila Prabhupada said and wrote, which I was able to reiterate above only because I had access to, despite Jayadwaita Swami’s desperate attempts to obliterate.
Fight on Ritvik vadis, the truth is on your side.
Hare Krsna
ys
Bhakta Mark
revised
One of the main contributors of Rocana dasa’ new ISKCON constitution has suddenly and unexpectedly died. Rocana usually attributes such events to the type of bad karma that arises out of trying to deliberately mislead the devotees, leaving us to wonder if where or not all the contributors to Rocana dasa constitution will soon be dropping like flies. Perhaps now Rocana dasa will experience first hand the same feelings that the similar comments that he makes occaisions in those of us whose friends are on Rocanas list of people contributing to leading others astray and stop making them, undwerstanding that whether true or not that they are unkind.
Kurma Rupa dasa was an old friend of Rocana dasa as well as an old friend of mine, one of the few devotees who ever actually tried to befriend m, there were some exceptions though about him that I did not k\like, the main one being the way Kurma Rupa talked about and treated his wife.
Rocana dasa writes:
“Without getting into too much detail, we had a problem when we arrived — there was an over-representation of women. Ironically, both our wives left us, within a few months of one another in Seattle. He was not in the least disturbed by it.” Kurma Rupa dasa Brahmachari BY: ROCANA DASA
I wonder why? Actually I really don’t having both been there and having known Kurma Rupa and Rocana dasa and other interested parties at the time. It is thus to me no wonder as to either why Rocana dasa doesn’t want to get into to much detail and why Kurma Rupa dasa wasn’t in the least distrurbed by his wife;s leaving him. Concerning the later the way Rocana writes creates and sponsors the illusion that Jurma Rupa’s lack of perturbance at his wife’s leaving him was due to some quality reflective of his saintlines, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t due to any degree of siantliness or virutue whatsoever but due to a vice.
s. Rocana doesn’t want to get to much into detail because otherwise the truth might be suggested or even come out. The real reason that Kurma Rupa wasn’t disturbed by his wife’s leaving him was because Kurma Rupa despised women!
I remember reading with amusement the following prime example of this writing syle of Rocana dasa in several years ago in relation to the same gentleman, when Rocaba dasa in another article “Oh, I Remember You and Open Letter to Hansadutata das” made the following claim:
My, Rocxana dasa does really like to put the best
“With the help of Kurma Rupa dasa, a staunch brahmicary we managed to recruit and train some bhaktas. “’
Hmm, I wonder why he didn’t mention how he had to clear out all the other bhaktas that were already there, the Bhakta Mark, Nhakta Raymond, Bhakta Geiorge who would not kiss his arse before he started his “Bhanachary as it is” ashram? But anyway te only thing I remember Kurma Rupa being at that time was a staunch misogynist albeit a married householder at the time, though the way Rocana writes in this particular article you’d think Kurma Rupa’d lived in a state of perpetual grace never, ever, ever having “suffered from the contamination of a womans touch” or spoilt in his virtue by succumbing to their whiles,
The way I remember it is that he and Rocana used to sit around and have pitty parties and talk about how disgusting they found the women to be ubtil Padjavali waked in at which point Rocana dasa wouds snap to attention.
Other than that I liked Kurma Rupa dasa he at hleast had some balls and was free from duplicity, which is more than I feel that I can say truthfully about Rocana das who cannot even manage to keep his snakyness under control enough to keep it out of an old friends eulogy.
Those of you wo are unfamiliar with Rocana and his writing style please take note of this example of how hypnotic and don’t be taken in by iy no matter how innocuous the belief seems to be that he trying to get you to form and accept because this is a process of conditioning.
Bhakta Mark says:
In NOI 5, Srila Prabhupada states the fact that any living entity has the natural and inherent capacity to discipline anyone else who accepts them as a teacher or guide.”
No he doesn’t, in NOI 5 Srila Prabhupada statets that a kanistha or madhyama level devotee can accept disciples, not that a Bhakta Mark can do it, so why are you trying to extrapolate from what Srila Prabhupada actually said your own interpretation? Is it so that all of the devotees will admire you, so that in their eyes you will look big, big, big?
Judging by your final comments in which, after you see your work here as being done, you just basically pat the Ritviks on their heads as if they were your dogs or little children who needed you to feed or save them from the big bad man, you hop up upon your high horse and ride off, apparently into the sunset with your smug and self congratulatory attitude (you may even be whistling) it doesn’t appear to me that you actually need any help with fanning your own flames from anyone.
You did say one thing I am curious about, not about why you said it but in as to whether you’ve made your mind up yet about it, that and whether on the theory of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” whether or not the Rtviks are going to call you on it this time or just let it pass. It concerns your vomment about all of Srila Prabhupadas uttama-adhikari disciples accepting the role of Rtvik initiating priests, not your musings about momentary qualifications that come a bit later on but before that.If someone actually chooses to slam you for it I may decide to deconstruct” your post and reply to it one point at a time (polite speak for tearing it up and throwing it back into your face) or considering who you have deferred to which establishes your place in the pecking order, I may not. Time will tell Bhakta Mark. Pray for silence.
Too bad my grammar is not up to par, it leaves the door open for a sophist to attack the semantic details of my message in order to distract from the essential point being made.
So I stand corrected. Srila Prabhupada did not state what I claimed he stated.
After all, we all know what Srila Prabhupada’s exact statement was, as it has been recopied numerous times, and for edification will be recopied once again here.
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. THEREFORE A DISCIPLE SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO ACCEPT AN UTTAMA-ADHIKARI AS A SPIRITUAL MASTER.”
However, currently there is a disagreement on what SP MEANT by his exact statement. And in such cases, those who discuss in order to clarify such meaning engage in the act of REPHRASING the statement under contention, in order to perhaps select words that will trigger better understanding in those confused by the EXACT STATEMENT under discussion. Yet, leave it to George to point out the obvious that my rephrasing was not exactly what Srila Prabhupada says, and thus is an interpretation to be rejected and ignored, while hypocritcally engaging in the same activity.
Specifically regarding George’s INTERPRETATION that Srila Prabhupada was “giving permission”, as well as George’s statement that ” In his purport Srila Prabhupada only warns that if one chooses to accept initiation from a lower class devotee that one will not be able to advance very far due to their insufficient guidance.” When it is plainly evident this is not the ONLY thing Srila Prabhupada said, and frankly he did more than issue a warning but a DIRECT PROHIBITION in the first part of the statement, using the word SHOULD. And in the case where his prohibition was ignored by lower class devotees who have insufficient capacity to actually SPIRITUALLY initiate another by Diksa, and therefore no capacity to guide another to reach the ULTIMATE GOAL, which is the GOAL of SPIRITUAL REALIZATION, as opposed to MATERIAL realization… In that case, Srila Prabhupada states plainly that such lower class devotees can accept disciples on the same platform and the disciples will go no further than that platform.
And as I pointed out at length by rephrasing what SP said, this does not equal to any sort of granting of permission, as George has decided to interpretively rephrase. Too bad I used the phrase “SP states” which left the door open for George to distract from the point.
What I should have written was that SP’S STATEMENT WAS EQUIVALENT TO POINTING OUT THE FACT that any living entity has the natural and inherent capacity to discipline anyone else who accepts them as a teacher or guide. Due to the nature of the living force of consciousness and how it acts within the material deminar, this phenomenon is always occurring where 2 or more are gathered and literally cannot be avoided. As to the result of such interactions, that is always dependent upon the qualifications of the superior who assumes the responsibility. Srila Prabhupada also refers directly to this phenomenon in a lecture. vis-à-vis (EVERYBODY IS GUIDED BY SOMEBODY ELSE).
And I went on in my comment to reproduce Srila Prabhupada’s EXACT STATEMENTS FROM MULTIPLE PURPORTS to illustrate the point I made, including his EXACT STATEMENT that “EVERYBODY IS GUIDED BY SOMEBODY ELSE” Which was another one of his Brilliantly Simple ways of phrasing the principle that at all times, discipleship is occurring.
And to cover all the bases, yes, a Madhyama adhikari may be at the point of possessing some Spiritual realization, as opposed to the strictly material realization of a neophyte a.k.a. Prakrta (material) Bhakta. But, in Iskcon, the Acarya never gave explicit order’s for anyone of any adhikari to perform a formal initiation ceremony and consider the initiated person “their own initiated disciple”. Therefore, while madhyama adhikari disciples of Srila Prabhupada were quite often spiritually initiating the spiritual lives of people they met via loving exchanges in the natural way this occurs, they were never encouraged or authorized to follow up by formally initiating every person they made into a devotee and calling that person “their initiated disciple”. That was reserved to Srila Prabhupada, and was forever reserved by the Ritvik Order of 7/9/77. Thus any actual madhyama who insists on bypassing the acarya’s order and accepts a someone as “his disciple” has done the rare thing of falling from the position of Madhyama adhikari, by failing to distinguish between the four categories of persons, specifically those more advanced than they are, more specifically their spiritual master.
Outside of Iskcon, none of the above applies so to speak. So George and others are bound by nature to discipline all to whom they address and will be able to guide them according to the platform from which they stand, and no further. The same holds true for myself, and I address all I speak to from the platform of a person who aspires to discipleship of Srila Prabhupada’s true Iskcon, and simply as one defending the tenets of that spiritual institution, regardless of the nature or extent of its current manifestation on this planet. Thus anyone who hears me can accept my guidance or not, I believe it is at least sufficient to help one understand what Srila Prabhupada wanted all potential initiates to understand before making a commitment to take the next step of formal ritvik initiation and the vows that entails.
Enough said.
Hare Krsna
ys
B.Mark
Hare Krsna, dear George prabhu!
Srila Prabhupada does not say anything with a double meaning. He is always clear.
More devotees tried to explain these things to you. Mahesh Raja Prabhu sent some writings to you. I also know such devotees who serve false gurus and they do not want to know the truth. You search for a pure devotee a new Guru. Krsna sees your heart and I think He does not give you clear understanding. Because Srila Prabhupada is the Siksa and Diksa Guru in ISKCON.
My first and second wife get along together very nicely but someones got to take care of me tonight and clean up the mess so they won;t have to. It’s togh to have a conscience. Just as I suspected, an unusual “prayer” to say the least Bhakta Mark as it can only hope for it’s success if the gods of Rtvik are stupid, apathetic or simply asleep. Since your praery seems to have been answered I am thinking perhaps that they are all three..
Dear George,
Your latest reply clearly alludes to what is behind the nature of your blind and stubborn missives.
I do wish you well, wish you spiritual strength and support.
ys
B.Mark
So far upon this thread I have managed to demonstrate the value of the acceptance of even a lower to middle level devotee as one’s guru, through the ability of that relationship to save one from descent into Hell or into the animal species in ones very next life and to assure to one instead a human birth and the chamce to take up devotional service once again. Now copying an article from ISKCON NEWS over to this site, those reading it can also see how easy and how much fun such an arangement is:
ISKCON Disciple Course to be Prerequisite for Initiation from 2015
By: Madhava Smullen ISKCON News on April 3, 2014
Photo Credits: http://www.bhaktivedantamanor.co.uk
Srila Prabhupada giving initiation to a female disciple
At the 2014 Annual General Meetings of ISKCON’s Governing Body Commission in Mayapur, West Bengal this February, the GBC resolved that devotees wishing to take initiation from an ISKCON guru will be required to first pass the ISKCON Disciple Course.
The resolution will not be effective until Janmastami 2015 (September 5th), so that ISKCON leaders throughout the world will have time to put the proper systems in place to make the course widely available.
The ISKCON Disciple Course grew from the ISKCON Guru Seminar, created in 2008 to help new devotees taking up the service of guru learn from those that had gone before them, and be successful and effective in preaching and caring for devotees.
“While creating that seminar, we realized that we needed the other side too,” says ISKCON Communications Director Anuttama Das, one of the course developers. “We needed to share a mature understanding of what it means to be a guru within ISKCON with those devotees that are taking up that service. But we also needed to more directly help devotees becoming disciples.”
The twenty-hour Disciple Course, offered over four days, was first made available in 2012, and has already been taught in Mayapur, India; Washington D.C., North America; Argentina, South America; Hong Kong, and Bangladesh.
A fun and interactive course, it is ISKCON’s first standard training system for new members in regards to the specific duties of initiated disciples, and deals with a series of important topics on what it means to be a disciple in ISKCON.
The course begins with the topic of guru-tattva, or what it means to be a guru. “In the course we study a lot of what Prabhupada wrote and spoke about guru,” Anuttama says. “How the guru is to be respected as God’s ambassador. And how although in the disciple’s eyes, the guru is the representative of God, the guru sees himself as the humble servant of his own spiritual master.”
The course also focuses a lot on Srila Prabhupada’s unique, preeminent (meaning surpassing all others) position as Founder Acharya of ISKCON.
“We remind people how much Prabhupada is very much an integral part of the life of every devotee in ISKCON,” says Anuttama. “We read Srila Prabhupada’s books; we see his murti; we chant his pranam prayers in kirtan; his picture is on the altar; and we hear lectures given on his books.”
The three different gurus are also discussed – the preeminent Founder Acharya Srila Prabhupada; one’s many siksa gurus such as temple presidents, bhakta leaders, or anyone who gives spiritual instruction; and for those who decide to become more serious and take vows, the diksa guru.
“All three work together, throughout our lives,” says Anuttama. “And collectively, they form and give guidance to our spiritual life.”
Another section of the course covers how to select a diksa guru. “Sometimes there may be a misunderstanding that I should pick a guru based on who’s got the most disciples, or is the best singer,” Anuttama says. “But those are not appropriate ways. Rather, we should select a guru based on who inspires us, sets a good example and is dedicated to their own spiritual master.”
ISKCON devotees from all over the world gathered to attend the disciple course in Mayapur
The course is down-to-earth and realistic. In a lesson about the importance of initiation vows and why we take them, devotees break up into groups to discuss some of the challenges they might face in mainting their vows as a future disciple.
In another lesson, they learn about how to respond if their guru has spiritual difficulties. According to Anuttama, this is not only a 21st century problem, but something that has precedent in Lord Chaitanya’s pastimes and even as far back as the Mahabharata.
“We’ve seen in the past that sometimes spiritual leaders have difficulties, and their disciples are not prepared to cope with it,” he says. “So we want to prepare all disciples in the future. We particularly emphasize that if our diksa guru has difficulty, we always have our connection with Srila Prabhupada, Lord Krishna, ISKCON, and our siksa gurus.”
Towards the end of the course, there is a lesson on relationships within ISKCON, and how initiation within the society also means ‘taking up the family business’ of spreading Krishna consciousness and helping others awaken their spiritual life.
The course is filled with interactive group work, skits, and role playing. In one skit, for example, course attendees learn about what to do if they get conflicting advice from two different authorities – such as their guru and their temple president.
Throughout the course they also learn about the duties of being a disciple, the different ways of serving the guru, and the importance of respecting all Vaishnavas.
The course took about a year to create under the auspices of the GBC Guru Services Committee, the Mayapur Institute, and ISKCON Communications, with the input of senior devotees, diksa and siksa gurus, and educators from around the world. It is based mostly upon Srila Prabhupada’s books and lectures, as well as the writings of the six Goswamis of Vrindavana.
It is offered by qualified teachers who have already taken the course themselves, and have completed the VTE Teachers Training Course at the Mayapur Institute, or equivalent training.
Over the next year-and-a-half, before ISKCON gurus implement the course as a prerequisite for initiation, the GBC Guru Services Committee will work hard to make sure that there are many trained teachers at ISKCON temples all over the world who will be qualified to teach it.
While the course lasts 20 hours and typically four days, it allows great flexibility according to the needs of each temple – for instance it can be taught every Saturday for four weeks in arrow, or on the first weekend of the month two months in a row.
Devotees who do not live close enough to a temple will be able to take the course online through the Bhaktivedanta College in Radhadesh, Belgium.
Meanwhile the course material will be translated into all major languages – so far it is already available in Russian, Italian, German, Hindi, Bengali, Spanish, Portuguese and of course English. The Guru Services Committee is also working with the website ISKCONdesiretree.net to make the course available online in various Indian languages, and several other languages are currently in the pipeline too.
Although the course will be required for most initiates from 2015, GBC members may request a one-year extension for areas within their jurisdiction under special circumstances – for example if a remote country does not have the course available in their language yet. The requirement for an infirm or terminally ill prospective disciple to take the course may also be waived by their local temple president.
Meanwhile illiterate devotees are welcome to participate in the course, and can undergo a minimal oral examination upon completion.
The ISKCON Disciple Course has already been given in many countries and has evoked positive feedback and results from both new and senior devotees.
Anuttama, who has taught the course many times, says he loves teaching it. “I see how devotees that take it really enhance their appreciation for Srila Prabhupada, and for their own future Diksa guru,” he enthuses. “They also deepen their understanding of our culture feel much more equipped to be successful as disciples.”
In the early days of ISKCON, Anuttama recalls, devotees would get initiated quickly without even being quite sure what it meant, and many left just as quickly.
“Obviously we weren’t very good at training devotees and helping them understand the seriousness of the commitment,” he says. “But now I think that courses like this give testimony to the maturity of ISKCON, and show that we’re understanding the need to train members about how to make a serious commitment to their spiritual life based on a very broad and mature understanding of Krishna consciousness.”
Spiritual life’s not just about a pep-talk,” he concludes. “It’s about a lifelong commitment, and we need to strengthen people in how to do that in a balanced and mature way.”
‘Battlefield promotions’ I believe Srila Prabhupada called many initiations and assignments. Just as when he advised us most devotees are, in truth, desirous of heaven over Vaikuntha.
Quite often Srila Prabhupada’s answers/explanations were/are as easy as pie.
Any beating of such lessons for more and better intelligence and realization is a insult.
“‘Battlefield promotions’ I believe Srila Prabhupada called many initiations and assignments. Just as when he advised us most devotees are, in truth, desirous of heaven over Vaikuntha.
Quite often Srila Prabhupada’s answers/explanations were/are as easy as pie.
Any beating of such lessons for more and better intelligence and realization is a insult.”
To see so many of our friends fallen, scattered like leaves fills a young mans mind with many battlefield questions, like why some dumb grunt would carry such a damn big heavy book in his back pack? What, did he think that it would stop a bullet? It didn;t, but the words from it’s pages seemed to reassure him as he lay dying “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor all these kings, nor in the future will you ever cease to be,,” Hope he made it to Vaikuntha.
Sorry, accepting a kanistha adhikari as one’s spiritual master is not necessarily auspicious but can be inauspicious, and thus does not guarantee a human birth. The only way to guarantee a human birth is to first be linked up to the yoga system and practice Bhakti yoga as per BG 6.41.
But does a neophyte ALWAYS link another to the Bhakti yoga system and initiate their practice? We will see what the acaryas have to say about that.
It is a fact that NO neophyte has mastered spirituality, and thus cannot transmit transcendental knowledge, and cannot initiate another into any conception or realization past Prakrta Bhakti or Materialistic devotional service. As the quotes below will show.
Neophytes can and will accept disciples, as they have since time immemorial, and will eternally within this material world, because that is one of the particular temptations and flaws inherent in a neophyte who is not accepting the guidance of an uttama adhikari, or a madhyama under that uttama’s guidance.
Our exemplar uttama acarya, Srila Prabhupada, pointed out the obvious. That a neophyte can accept disciples as easily as a person can breathe by inhaling from their lungs, yet in the same breath SP gives his authorized declaration of what an aspirant faced with such a choice SHOULD be careful TO DO.
“Therefore, a disciple SHOULD be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari (first-class devotee) as a spiritual master.”
And then offers a PROHIBITION against any other choice. Pay attention to the words MUST and SHOULD NOT and ONLY…ELIGIBLE.
“One SHOULD NOT become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari (first-class devotee).” – Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport
“The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. . . ONLY such a person is ELIGIBLE to occupy the post of a guru.” – Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita Madhya 24.330, Purport
And why is this? ” it should be understood that they (aspiring disciple) cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his (neophyte’s) insufficient guidance” (NOI 5)
AND FOR THOSE WHO WISH FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA TO EXPLAIN THESE “DRACONIAN PROHIBITIONS”?
SP – “The third-class devotee engages in devotional service according to the directions of the spiritual master, OR ENGAGES OUT OF FAMILY TRADITION, and worships the Deity of the Lord, but he is not cultivated in knowledge of devotional service, and HE DOES NOT KNOW A DEVOTEE FROM A NONDEVOTEE, SUCH A THIRD-CLASS DEVOTEE CANNOT ACTUALLY BE CONSIDERED A PURE DEVOTEE;
HE IS ALMOST IN THE DEVOTIONAL LINE,
BUT HIS POSITION IS NOT VERY SECURE.” (TLC 11)
my comment. Remember, neophytes are not even in the devotional line yet.
SP – “The third-class devotees or the neophytes, who have no knowledge and are not detached from material association, but who are simply attracted by the preliminary process of worshiping the Deity in the temple, are called material devotees. Material devotees are more attached to material benefit than transcendental profit. Therefore, one has to make definite progress from the position of material devotional service to the second-class devotional position.” – Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12, Purport
My comment. A neophyte HAS TO make DEFINITE progress to the second class position, and NEVER CAN OR WILL under the INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE OF A NEOPHYTE SO CALLED GURU.
and finally.
SP – “One has to raise himself at least to the stage of a second-class devotee and thus become eligible to know the Absolute Truth. A third-class devotee, therefore, has to receive the instructions of devotional service from the authoritative sources of Bhagavata. The number one Bhagavata is the established personality of devotee, and the other Bhagavatam is the message of Godhead. The third-class devotee therefore has to go to the personality of devotee in order to learn the instructions of devotional service.” – Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12, Purport
GET THAT? The personality of devotee cannot possibly be a neophyte. A neophyte cannot be considered the “PERSON BHAGAVATA”
NEVER. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS.
So, we have someone who is not in the devotional line, who is a materialistic person, who has possibly ignored the orders of the Mahabhagavat Acarya, and if not is simply following the advice of some other neophyte so called guru and accepting disciples that they cannot even bring to the second class platform, and what do we call this? Thus this is MORE THAN LIKELY JUST “The spiritual master business.”
“There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaishnavas in this Krishna Consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. A false acarya may try to override a vaishnava by a high-court decision, (2/3 hand vote) but Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that he is nothing but a disciple of Kali-yuga.”.
“Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, Kali-cela. He indicates that there are other Vaishnavas, pseudo-Vaishnavas, with tilaka on their nose and kunti beads around their neck. Such a pseudo-Vaishnava associates with money and women and is jealous of successful Vaishnavas. Although passing for a Vaishnava, his only business is earning money in the dress of a Vaishnava”. (CC.Madhy.,Ch.1, Text 218 / 220, purport)
PSEUDO GURUS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS
The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession.
THEY IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–“ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas. These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Isopanisad 12)
SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION. (Bg.16.19-20)
Yet, Bhakta George Smith INSISTS that a neophyte guru and his uninitiated neophyte disciples are Guaranteed a human form of life.
But the influence of a psuedo religionist/ pseudo Vaisnava (AKA neophyte so called Guru) may have no bearing whatsoever upon whether or not an aspirant to the devotional line takes a human birth in their next life of not. At the end of their life they have just as much chance of remembering the best sex they ever had with a goat, as they are remembering the holy names of the Lord.
Considering an animal life on earth is a better position than a birth in the most obnoxious place in the universe, perhaps George would like to change your mind about his conclusion. And perhaps finally issue a retraction to his claim that Srila Prabhupada “GAVE PERMISSION” for Neophytes to become Diksa gurus and accept disciples.
For George is now risking his own descent to dark regions due to his stubborn pride.
Hare Krsna
ys
B.Mark
Thank you Bhakta Mark. Also we can refer to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s conversation with Sriyukta Rajendranath Pal Chaudhuri Mahasaya, the famous Zamindar of Louhajang and one of his employees, Rajen Babu on the morning of Wednesday, August 8th 1934.
Here Srila Bhaktisiddhanta clearly states the madhyama-adhikari can ONLY perform the ‘initial duties of diksa’ ie ritvik ceremonial function!
“Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Sarasvati Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.”
All confirmed by our Srila Prabhupada in NOI #5 purport!
Yhs, Balaram das.
Jaya Balaram das!
Is this the first time you came across that conversation?
I seem to vaguely remember it, but I can’t believe I ever read that before and did not file it away permanently, no less shout it from the rooftops.
Crystal clear and directly confirming the NOI 5 purport as you point out. A CLEAR PROHIBITION against both neophytes and intermediate devotees, from becoming initiating spiritual masters on their own initiative. Of course I would accept that a devotee who is solidly on the madhyama platform got that way through chaste service to an uttama acarya, and thus if one was to find them initiating and calling the disciples there own, one would also find that their own Uttama acarya had authorized them to do so as part of the overall preaching strategy implemented by that Uttama. Either that or NO instructions were left to continue the ritvik or deputy or “initial” Diksa duty paradigm after the disappearance of the Acarya, at which point the Madhyams would resort to offering Diksa and guiding the disciple according to the tradition that once one’s Guru disappears, one no longer brings the aspiring disciples to them.
Both the Gaudiya Matha and Iskcon were the first and second asramas in Gaudiya history which were meant to CONTINUE with an INSTITUTIONAL construct as directed by the respective acaryas. Interestingly, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is quoted by our Srila Prabhupada as having said that a self effulgent Acarya might emerge from among the GBC of the Gaudiya Matha and be recognized and “elected” from among the GBC. If that were true, such an Acarya would have had the authorization to disband the GBC and institutional structure of the Gaudiya Matha if they saw fit, but more likely would simply have become the “president” of the GBC and simply held the ability to preside and to reserve a veto vote on all resolutions.
That last part was speculation, but educated by the circumstances.
Hare Krsna
Note: The Anti Ritvik mentality is about EXPLOITING others. History repeats itself. They had the SAME mentality in Gaudiya Math ALSO. These Anti Ritvik ROGUES CROOKS will NOT accept Srila Prabhupada. They want to USE Srila Prabhupada as a FRONT so that they can SCREW money and FREE SLAVES just like Gaudiya Math:
741004SB.MAY
Prabhupāda: So in the last verse, Kuntī accepted, vimocitā ahaṁ casahātmajā vibho: “My Lord, there were so many dangers, and You saved us, along with my sons.” Muhur vipad-gaṇāt: “One after another, dangerous position.” So some of them are being described.
Viṣāt: “from poison.” The Dhṛtarāṣṭra group, Dhṛtarāṣṭra and his sons, they conspired to give them poison. They were transferred to a house. They were so obedient because Dhṛtarāṣṭra happened to be the superior in the house, and he took care of the Pāṇḍavas when they were small children because their father died at an early age. So it was the duty of the elderly members of the family. After all, they were very respectable kṣatriya family. So the elderly members means Dhṛtarāṣṭraand Vidura and Bhīṣmadeva. Bhīṣmadeva was the grandfather of the family, and Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the elder brother of Pāṇḍava, and Vidurawas also brother, Vidura, also elder. Pāṇḍu was the youngest, the father of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and… So it is, after all, a, what is called,varṇāśrama family, Vedic family. So the elderly people had the responsibility to raise the fatherless children. So Dhṛtarāṣṭra took charge as the eldest member. So māyā is very strong. He began to think that “Actually this kingdom belongs to me. I am the eldest son, but because I am born blind, therefore it was given to my younger brother. Now he is dead. Now he’s dead, so the property belongs to me. Some way or other, it was transferred to my younger brother. Now the younger brother is dead. Then again I become proprietor. So at least I could not rule over the kingdom, why not my sons?” This was the beginning.
JUST LIKE ONE OF OUR GODBROTHERS, HE’S THINKING THAT “THIS INSTITUTION WAS STARTED BY ME AND BHAKTISIDDHĀNTA SARASVATĪ AS PARTNERS. NOW THE SENIOR PARTNER IS DEAD. THEREFORE I AM THE SOLE PROPRIETOR. WHO ARE THESE GODBROTHERS? LET THEM GO AWAY.” SO THIS IS MĀYĀ, THE SAME MĀYĀDHṚTARĀṢṬRA WAS THINKING. AND HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW, ŚAKUNI, WAS VERY EXPERT IN CONSPIRACY. So he was advising him, “Yes, you are the proprietor. At least your sons should be…” This is natural. Every… Everyone has got some affection for the family. So this is the beginning of the conspiracy. Otherwise, he was taking care of the children very nicely. But māyā was dictating that “You are taking care of the children of your brother. What about your own children?” “Yes, why not my children?”
So attempt was being made how to kill these boys.
730921r2.bom
Prabhupāda: Yes. If by the dress of sannyāsī, you take some money and eat and sleep, then it is transcendental fraud. (SP laughs) (Hindi) Just like others are toiling, and we are getting money by some dress. That’s all. They are getting money by laboring hard, and we are getting money… In India, mostly the sannyāsīs, they do that. The priests also, they do that. This is our profession, just… My Guru Mahārāja said thatṭhākura dekhiye pāya rasta karache, rastaye ‘yandiya jīvika badramkaram bhari (?). Instead of earning livelihood by showing the Deity in the temple, it is better to take the profession of a sweeper in the street and live honestly. He said like that. The sweeper is working hard toiling and getting some money and living. This is honest living. But just like inVṛndāvana, all the Goswamis. They have got their Deity. People are coming, contributing. Typical example, Gauracānda Goswami. Ṭhākuradekhiye paisa rasta. (?) All the sevaites, they are meant for… Our KunjaBabu also planned like that. He thought, “By cheating all the God-brothers, I have got now Caitanya Maṭha. And people will come to see Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s birthplace, and I will get good income. And it will be distributed amongst my brothers and sons and myself. That’s all.” That is his scheme.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect material plan.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is another way of earning money. AND HE WAS ALWAYS AFTER GURU MAHĀRĀJA ONLY FOR THIS PURPOSE. GURU MAHĀRĀJA TOOK THAT “OH, THIS MAN IS HELPING ME.” BUT HE HAD NO SUCH PLAN, TO HELP BHAKTISIDDHĀNTA SARASVATĪ. HE HAD THE PLAN, “KEEP BHAKTISIDDHĀNTASARASVATĪ IN FRONT, EARN MONEY, AND PUT IT IN MY POCKET.” THAT WAS HIS VERY BEGINNING. HE WAS TAKING MONEY LIKE ANYTHING. BUT HE WAS A GOOD MANAGER. OTHER GOD-BROTHERS COMPLAINED, SANNYĀSĪS. GURU MAHĀRĀJA USED TO SAY THAT “WHY YOU ARE COMPLAINING? YOU CANNOT REFORM HIM, YOUR GOD-BROTHER? AND IF I WOULD HAVE TO KEEP EXPERT MANAGER LIKE HIM, I WOULD HAVE TO PAY SOMETHING. SUPPOSE HE IS TAKING SOMETHING, WHY DO YOU GRUDGE?” (PRABHUPĀDA LAUGHING) HE WOULD SAY LIKE THAT. SO NOBODY COULD SAY ANYTHING. BUT AFTER THE DEMISE, EVERYTHING BURST OUT. “KUNJABABU MUST BE DRIVEN OUT.” THAT WAS THE WHOLE PLAN OF GAUḌĪYA MAṬHABREAKDOWN. THE GRUDGE WAS AGAINST KUNJA BABU.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Kunja Babu?
Prabhupāda: That Tīrtha Mahārāja. His name is Kunja Vihari Sar. So that was boiling in everyone’s heart. So as soon as Guru Mahārāja passed away, so that burst out. And the whole plan was how to get out this KunjaBabu.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not how to preach.
Prabhupāda: No. This was the cause of breakdown. This was suppressed by Guru Mahārāja under his influence, but the rebellious was there during his lifetime. And it burst into… Therefore he advised that “You make a governing body and Kunja Babu should be allowed to remain manager.” This was directly spoken. He never asked anybody to become ācārya. He asked that “You form a governing body of twelve men and go on preaching, and Kunja Babu may be allowed to remain manager during his lifetime.” He never said that Kunja Babu should be ācārya.None, none of them were advised by Guru Mahārāja to become ācārya.His idea was “Let them manage; then whoever will be actual qualified for becoming ācārya, they will elect. Why I should enforce upon them?” That was his plan. “Let them manage by strong governing body, as it is going on. Then ācārya will come by his qualifications.” But they wanted that… Because at heart, they were, “After demise of Guru, I shall become ācārya.” “I shall become ācārya.” So all the ācāryas began fight. One side, that Vāsudeva Ācārya and Sar Kunja Babu Ācārya. AndParamānanda, he thought that “Whoever will be powerful, I shall join them.” (laughing) He only thought. But Guru Mahārāja never asked that these three men should be trustees. He wanted governing body. So the rebellion broke out immediately after his passing away. And then fight in the high-court. And Kunja Babu, he is very intelligent man. So from the very beginning he knew that “There will be fight after the demise of Guru Mahārāja. So fight will be in the high-court. So at the expense of Guru Mahārāja, let my brother and sons become attorneys and barrister so I will have not to pay all these things.” It was a planned thing. And that is being done. He was a clerk, it was not in his power to make his brother and sons attorneys and barristers. They were all made at the cost of Gauḍīya Maṭha to fight with (indistinct) in favor of Tīrtha Mahārāja. These were the planned things. But I was a rotten gṛhastha. I did not join any one of them. (Prabhupāda laughs) I was rotting in my household life. That’s all. But I was planning how to make, how to make this. That was my desire from the very beginning, since I heard it. But I was never with them, either this party or that party. And Guru Mahārāja also recommended, apnader tasturi tublia thaki bhavan. Takhona (?). “When there will be need, he will do himself. There is no need of living with you. It is better to live apart from you.” When I was recommended by Goswami Mahārāja to live in the Maṭha, that “He is so nice.” Sometimes he recommended. In Bombay, here in this Bombay. That house. Yes. He (Guru Mahārāja) said “Yes, he is very expert. He can do. So it is better to live apart from you. And he will do everything when there is need.” He said. I could not understand. Although I was apart from them, a gṛhastha. In this Bombay I was doing business. (people talking outside)
Thats which is spoken by His Divine Grace has to be accepted. So what is the the position of such errant and foolish “disciples” who disregard the order of the Acharya? Does this mean that they are Madhyam Adhikari? I think not! Does it mean that they are Kanistha Adhikari? I don’t think so!
Gaudiya Math is a franchise of ”corner shop gurus” that’s all! Most of these persons are followers of Sridhar Swami, whom Srila Prabhupada said destroyed the Gaudiya Math.
ISKCON has gone the SAME WAY, no doubt about that, completely ignoring the instructions of Srila Prabhupada. SO WHERE IN THE SHASTRA DOES IT SAY THAT KALI CHELA CAMELS AND ASSES CAN ACCEPT DISCIPLES? That is what these bogus gurus in Gaudiya Math and ISKCON are! NOT MADHYAM OR EVEN KANISTHA BUT KALI CHELA, CHEATS AND RASCALS THAT’S ALL!
Fools such as George Smith like to entertain the notion (amongst many others) that these KALI CHELA CHEATS AND RASCALS are “hovering on some sort of INTERMEDIATE LEVEL” of spiritual advancement and have only the BEST intentions (in site of their many shortcomings) in trying to lift up their “sycophantic unfortunate followers” towards spiritual enlightenment!……………. COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
“We’ve seen in the past that sometimes spiritual leaders have difficulties, and their disciples are not prepared to cope with it,” he says. “So we want to prepare all disciples in the future. We particularly emphasize that if our diksa guru has difficulty, we always have our connection with Srila Prabhupada, Lord Krishna, ISKCON, and our siksa gurus.”
Genuine Krsna consciousness is absolutely perfect. Therefore if just one of their “diksa gurus” falls down, then their entire system is wrong.
“Srila Prabhupada: So, imperfect senses can give only imperfect knowledge. What you are calling scientific knowledge is bogus, because the men who have produced that knowledge are imperfect. How can you expect perfect knowledge from an imperfect person?
Doctor: It’s a question of degree.
Srila Prabhupada: My point is that if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, what is the use of taking knowledge from you?”
[Srila Prabhupada Conversation with Indian doctor, London, September 1973]
By instituting this bogus system and forcing it upon all newcomers to ISKCON, they are introducing something directly opposed to what Srila Prabhupada wanted and preached; and so they are commiting spiritual violence against these new practitioners, thus spoiling their lives.
Who cares what Anuttama says! He is a big follower of Radhanath. This is all theater and political posturing. First thing that’s required to be disciple in ISKCON is to ADHERE TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA not sing the praises of murderers and gangsters like Radhanath and a plethora of other KALI CHELA rascals and fools, boy buggerers and theives.
It is a common theme amongst all the worlds faiths that due to the influence of Kali Yuga they are mostly all criminal organizations, only interested in power and prestige. Who would have thought that Ireland would have “legalized” gay marriage?. This is only possible when demons infiltrate, corrupt, exploit, and cheat the people they are supposed to enlighten. This is the demons plan to posture, and pose as saintly persons to pollute the atmosphere and ultimately DESTROY any faith that people may have in God.
All these GBC meetings, committees, resolutions, sub-committees, pie-charts, plans, “educational courses”, workshops, ”Emeritus” appointments, political speeches, committee findings, committee reports, sub-committee reports, pretending to honor Srila Prabhupada for their own political game, with appointments of this chairman, that “guru”, this GBC and that ”sannyasi” and ”the minister for this and the minister for that” pseudo spiritual posturing and reflection are all a load of hogwash and political THEATER, nothing more!
Is it any wonder that people are leaving “religion” in droves. It is all due to the influence of demons. This is what Srila Prabhupada and all the previous Acharyas warned us of many times.
Srila Prabhupada would say you judge a process by it’s result.
The only auspiciousness I have ever seen as a result of the otherwise inauspicious fraud and embezzlement of the kanistha and/or madhyam spiritual masters is that their cheating drove the duped disciple back to the shelter of Srila Prabhupada.
“Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has said, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: “Without serving a bona fide spiritual master, an ideal Vaisnava, who can be delivered from the clutches of maya?”
Srila Prabhupada purport from First print Srimad Bhagavatam canto 6, chapter 1, text 16.