Jambudvipa – the great round flat earth plane,
with the nine varshas and separating mountains, Sumeru in the center
The Base of Mount Meru
BY: MAYESVARA DASA
Nov 10, 2017 — IRELAND (SUN) —
Part Two: What’s Below the Earth?
In Part One of this series of papers we looked at the seven subterranean realms within the Earth that go down down for 560,000 miles below the surface. In this Part Two we will look at the depth of Mount Meru below the Earth’s surface, but in the context of two related issues:
(1.1) Mount Meru
(1.2) The Size of the Earth (Bhu-gola/Bhu-mandala)
(1.3) The Three Dimensional Universe
Although we have looked at topics 1.2 and 1.3 in previous papers, I will re-present the arguments here in the present context of a discussion on Mount Meru. I wish to repeat the arguments here because there has been a consistent failure on the side of those writing and lecturing on the topic of Vedic cosmology to appreciate the description of the Bhu-mandala Sas a description of reality. The Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the Earth (Bhu-mandala) has so far been treated more as an intellectual concept or curiosity—a concept without any immediate relevance or consequence to our present way of thinking about the otherwise seemingly unquestionable and unchallengeable idea that the Earth is a globe in space. We wish to impress upon the reader the very opposite conviction, namely that the Earth described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is a description of reality with profound implications and challenges to our present understanding of the Earth we live upon. Is the Earth a small globe-shaped planet in space, or is our Earth area (as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam) part of a much greater Earth that forms a huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe? This question is set to become a historic controversy that will inevitably affect the world-view of the entire Hare Krishna movement, and eventually the rest of the world.
The shape of the Earth is a very big deal, especially now since the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s version is to be presented to the rest of the world via the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium. The Earth described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is completely different from what we’ve been presented by the modern education system and media, and this obviously presents a very big challenge to the belief system of the devotee community who have grown-up believing (like everyone else) that we live on a globe-shaped planet. The description (or revelation) of the Earth contained in Srimad-Bhagavatam marks the beginning of a new spiritual paradigm, regarding our beliefs about the size, nature, and purpose of the Earth we live upon. But will the present generation of leaders of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness be willing or capable of making the transition from a belief system implanted by scientism (that the Earth is a small globe-shaped planet floating in space), to that offered by Srimad-Bhagavatam—that the Earth is an immense, vast circular plane, and that our own Earth area is surrounded by more lands and more oceans that have yet to be discovered? It will undoubtedly be a test of faith for many devotees.
Bhumandala – the shape of the great round flat Earth circle with all the Dvipas
We previously wrote a paper to the devotee community, and specifically to the gurus and GBC of ISKCON, requesting that they look at this question of the Earth philosophically, and not participate in a culture of dogmatism simply out of obligation to an official party line. The paper can be found here.
Why is the shape of the Earth a big deal? The big deal is that we should live in a paradigm of the Earth as Krishna has created it, not in a paradigm created by speculating scientists beginning with Copernicus and propagated by space agencies such as NASA who have presented the world with images of the so-called Earth globe. The issue of the Earth is so huge that it can topple the whole culture of scientism which has been built and upheld over the last few hundred years on the three greatest falsities ever told—that the universe was created from a big bang, that we evolved from matter, and that we live on a globe! The big deal is that we have been presented false information regarding not only the creation and purpose of the Earth, but also false information regarding the shape and scale of the Earth. The Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium (TOVP) is meant to change all of that by presenting the Earth as it is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam—a vast circular plane with other lands and people surrounding our own. The issue is whether the TOVP will end up just propagating the same false information that our Earth is an isolated globe in space; and that the rest of the Bhu-mandala is somewhere in dimensions beyond our comprehension and concern.
Puranic Jambu-Dvipa – with the nine varshas, mount Meru in the center
(1.1) MOUNT MERU
Continuing from part one with our discussion about the seven subterranean realms, acharya Giridhara Lala in his commentary to SB 5.24.7 (see verse below) mentions that the entrance to the subterranean worlds begin not immediately below the Earth’s surface but at a distance of 16,000 yojanas (128,000 miles). This is because the base or root of Mount Meru actually goes into the depths of the Earth itself. Mount Meru is 800,000 miles high, but 672,000 miles are above the surface of the Earth and 128,000 miles are below the surface of the Earth. This is described by Sukadeva Goswami in the following verse:
“Amidst these divisions, or varshas, is the varsha named Ilavrta, which is situated in the middle of the whorl of the lotus. Within Ilavrta-varsha is Sumeru Mountain, which is made of gold. Sumeru Mountain is like the pericarp of the lotuslike Bhu-mandala planetary system. The mountain’s height is the same as the width of Jambudvipa—or, in other words, 100,000 yojanas [800,000 miles]. Of that, 16,000 yojanas [128,000 miles] are within the earth, and therefore the mountain’s height above the earth is 84,000 yojanas [672,000 miles]. The mountain’s width is 32,000 yojanas [256,000 miles] at its summit and 16,000 yojanas at its base.” (SB 5.16.7)
Amidst these divisions, or varṣas, is the varṣa named Ilāvṛta, which is situated in the middle of the whorl of the lotus. Within Ilāvṛta-varṣa is Sumeru Mountain, which is made of gold. Sumeru Mountain is like the pericarp of the lotuslike Bhū-maṇḍala planetary system. The mountain’s height is the same as the width of Jambūdvīpa —or, in other words, 100,000 yojanas [800,000 miles]. Of that, 16,000 yojanas [128,000 miles] are within the earth, and therefore the mountain’s height above the earth is 84,000 yojanas [672,000 miles]. The mountain’s width is 32,000 yojanas [256,000 miles] at its summit and 16,000 yojanas at its base.
Here it states that Mount Meru stands 672,000 miles above the Earth and it’s base goes down into the depths of the Earth for 128,000 miles. To this we have to add the depths of the subterranean realms:
“The bottom of Meru Mountain has sunk 16,000 yojanas [128,000 miles] into the Earth. 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] below Earth means 10,000 yojanas [below the 16,000 yojana level]. Actually it will be 26,000 yojanas from the surface of the Earth. Each of them is 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] high and wide. They form part of Bhu-loka as it is said in the first canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, i.e. that Bhu-loka along with the netherworlds are the feet of the virat-purusha [universal form of the Lord].” (Commentary by Giridhara Lala to SB 5.24.7)
Here the acharya is saying that the bottom of Mount Meru penetrates 16,000 yojanas (128,000 miles) into the Earth, and that the first of the seven subterranean realms begin after this bottom point of Mount Meru. He is explaining here that the first of the seven nether-worlds or subterranean heavens (bila-svarga) is 10,000 yojanas (80,000 miles deep) and that each of the seven realms are of a similar height and width (this gives a combined depth of 560,000 miles). He states that all seven of the subterranean worlds are to be regarded as part of the Earth (Bhu-loka). As we explained in the previous paper, the subterranean worlds are not separate planets below the Earth, but are actually colossal underground realms within the depths of the Earth itself, (hence forming part of Bhu-loka).
When we calculate the vast size of Mount Meru’s depth within the Earth (128,000 miles) along with the combined size of the subterranean heavens (560,000 miles), it is once again quite obvious that the Bhu-gola being described by Sukadeva Goswami is not some so-called tiny Earth globe spinning in space. Why then are the TOVP representatives insistent on identifying the name Bhu-gola with the so-called Earth globe?
We have just read that Mount Meru is 800,000 miles in height (672,000 miles are above the surface of Bhu-gola and 128,000 miles are below the surface of Bhu-gola). Sukadeva Goswami specifically invokes the name Bhu-gola when he begins his description of the names, measurements, and characteristics of the Earth which, of course includes Mount Meru in the center.
Jambudvipa – with the nine varshas and separating mountains, Sumeru in the center
Just north of Ilāvṛta-varṣa—and going further northward, one after another—are three mountains named Nīla, Śveta and Śṛṅgavān. These mark the borders of the three varṣas named Ramyaka, Hiraṇmaya and Kuru and separate them from one another. The width of these mountains is 2,000 yojanas [16,000 miles]. Lengthwise, they extend east and west to the beaches of the ocean of salt water. Going from south to north, the length of each mountain is one tenth that of the previous mountain, but the height of them all is the same.
Similarly, south of Ilāvṛta-varṣa and extending from east to west are three great mountains named (from north to south) Niṣadha, Hemakūṭa and Himālaya. Each of them is 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] high. They mark the boundaries of the three varṣas named Hari-varṣa, Kimpuruṣa-varṣa and Bhārata-varṣa [India]. (sb/5/16/8-9)
Sukadeva Goswami begins his epic discourse on cosmology with the following words: bhu-golaka-visesaà nama-rupa-mana-laksanato vyakhyasyamah: “O King, I shall nevertheless try to explain to you the principal regions, such as bhu-golaka [Bhuloka], with their names, forms, measurements and various symptoms.” (SB 5.16.4). Scrupulous attention to measurements and characteristics of Bhu-mandala as provided by Sukadeva Goswami should be the order of the day. The models for the Planetarium should not only accurately depict the measurements of the the virat-rupa (Krishna’s form as the universe), but the preaching about the nature of the Earth should be aligned with Sukadeva Goswami’s description. Obviously, Sukadeva Goswami is talking about a very big Earth! Nevertheless, in complete disregard of this very big Earth concept, verses from Surya-siddhanta are cited by those discussing the issue as positive proof for the existence of the Earth globe concept in the Vedic literature; for example:
“aneka ratnanicayo jamvunadamyo girih/
bhu-gola madhyago merurubhayatra vinirgatah//34//
“In the middle of the earth-globe and protruding out (vinirgata) on both sides, is Mount Meru adorned with the river Jambu and bedecked with myriads of jewels” (SS 12.34)
In the above verse, the name Bhu-gola has been translated as ‘Earth globe.’ For many devotees, simply finding an English translation of the Surya-siddhanta (by a translator who is clearly not familiar with the nature of the Vedic conception of the Earth) is enough to win an argument. The above English translation of Surya-siddhanta was made by the Reverend Ebenezer Burgess in 1860. It is clearly a wrong translation because as described by Sukadeva Goswami, the Bhu-gola is measured at a whopping 4 billion miles in diameter and spans the entire center of the universe (see section 1.2 below: What Size is the Earth?) What Sukadeva Goswami describes as Bhu-gola is certainly not a small Earth globe, but rather, a very large Earth circle.
Why has the above verse from Surya-siddhanta been presented as evidence of an Earth globe by those who should know better? Since Mount Meru is 800,000 miles tall and situated on the island of Jambudwipa which is 800,000 miles in diameter, how could this verse possibly be a description of the so-called Earth globe? The name Bhu-gola is obviously referring to a very different conception of the Earth than our common understanding of the Earth as a globe. Why do those arguing in favour of the Earth globe model not correct their position when the obvious flaw in the argument has been pointed out? Why do we have to endure other devotees who continue to repeat the same bogus arguments regarding the use of the name Bhu-gola to support the idea of an Earth globe?
If Surya-siddhanta is a bona-fide Vedic scripture then it cannot be describing a different Bhu-gola from that described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhu means Earth, and gola can mean circular as well as round. The Vedic ’round Earth’ is circular like a roundabout, not round like a globe. That is very clear from the description of the Bhu-gola’s measurements and characteristics (see 1.2 below).
Despite differences in details, in essence the Vedic scriptures are not in contradiction to each other. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, is regarded as the supreme authority over all, being the cream or essence of all the Vedas and thus regarded as the conclusive authority: sarva-vedetihasanam saram (SB 1.3.41). The description of the Earth as a vast circular plane spanning the center of the universe is described in all the Puranas, and it is this conception that must be borne in mind when we come to reading astronomical texts like Surya-siddhanta—particularly when we find a name like Bhu-gola mentioned. One has to understand Bhu-gola as it is described in Srimad Bhagavatam and the other Puranas; one cannot simply displace the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s conception of the Earth as a vast circular plane held up by Ananta-sesha, with one’s own conditioned idea that the Earth is a round globular planet floating in space and held up by gravity. That is not the concept of Earth described by Sukadeva Goswami; so why introduce a foreign idea and call it Vedic cosmology when it is nothing of the sort?
The confusion in translating the name Bhu-gola from books like Surya-siddhanta arises because (1) the translator is either not following, or has no faith in the Vedic understanding of the Earth based on the original description of the Bhu-gola provided in the Puranas, and particularly from Srimad-Bhagavatam; (2) The translator is simply superimposing their own assumed and preconceived idea of a small round Earth globe onto the Vedic conception of a massive round Earth circle (Bhu-gola/Bhu-mandala).
In the above verse from Surya-siddhanta we read that Meru is in the middle of the Earth (bhu-gola madhyago merurubhayatra) which is where we find it described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. So far so good! But what size is Meru? We have just read in the verse above (SB 5.16.7) that Meru is 800,000 miles high; 128,000 miles of the Mountain is below the Earth’s surface and 672,000 miles are above the surface. Could a globe of 24,900 miles possibly accommodate such a size? Has anyone seen a golden mountain standing 672,000 miles above the surface of the Earth?
So this tells us one or the other must be true: either Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the great Earth circle is completely mythological, or else we’ve all been fooled into believing that the Earth is a globe.
Personally, I have faith in Srimad-Bhagavatam’s version:
“Therefore, as indicated in Srimad-Bhagavatam by Sukadeva Gosvami, we should not try to comprehend the greater mountainous areas of the universe merely by our calculations. Sukadeva Gosvami has already stated that such calculations would be very difficult even if one had a duration of life like that of Brahma. We should simply be satisfied with the statements of authorities like Sukadeva Gosvami and appreciate how the entire cosmic manifestation has been made possible by the external energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The measurements given herein, such as 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] or 100,000 yojanas [800,000 miles], should be considered correct because they have been given by Sukadeva Gosvami. Our experimental knowledge can neither verify nor disprove the statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam. We should simply hear these statements from the authorities. If we can appreciate the extensive energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that will benefit us.” (Purport SB 5.16.10)
One way to understand the presence of an 800,000 mile golden mountain standing in the center of the Earth is simply by considering that our present conception of the Earth is wrong. One must take time to consider the new paradigm presented by Srimad-Bhagavatam—that the Earth is not a globe in space, but rather, it is a massive circular plane. We don’t see Meru from our position in Bharata-varsha because the distance along the Earth plane from the southern tip of Bharata-varsha to the center of Mount Meru is 400,000 miles away. The law of perspective (the vanishing point on the horizon line) does not allow one to see things in the distance, no matter how large they are. A question may arise then as to why we don’t see photos from outer space of this great Earth landscape with Mount Meru in the center. One possible answer is that there are no satellites or astronauts in faraway space that could photograph such a fantastic landscape; to put it bluntly—space travel is a hoax and nothing more than a very expensive movie made-up by NASA and other so-called space agencies. What we call satellites are merely cameras and other types of measuring equipment that are situated in high altitude, not outer space.
Buddhist Meru-Mandala
As the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium rises, it is incumbent upon the followers of Krishna to investigate the true nature of the Earth they stand upon. Such an investigation can begin by first understanding the description of the Earth contained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Whatever one has been led to believe about the nature of the Earth, we should, at least, start thinking about the subject by understanding our own shastra correctly. By correctly understanding the description of Bhu-mandala in Srimad-Bhagavatam, we are more spiritually prepared to begin an investigation into the claims of the official science and government propaganda in support of the Earth globe concept. Such an investigation is already well under way by a practical overnight internet revolution against the science supporting the globe concept, along with continued exposes of so-called space agencies such as NASA and ESA. It is very interesting that this revolution in thinking about the Earth and the cosmos arose almost spontaneously in 2015 in conjunction with the construction of the TOVP.
(1.2) THE SIZE OF THE EARTH
The name Bhu-gola is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam and is considered evidence for the idea of a round or globe-shaped Earth. However, since the Bhu-gola in question is described as being 4 billion miles in diameter with an 800,000 mile golden mountain at it’s center, the obvious conclusion is that the name Bhu-gola cannot be applied to the so-called Earth globe of 24,900 mile circumference that supposedly floats in space. No such conception of an Earth globe floating in space exists in the Puranas; it is a foreign idea that has been superimposed unto the Vedic conception. To be clear on this, let us look again at the measurement of Bhu-gola.
Chapters 16-20 of the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s fifth canto are a description of the measurements and principal characteristics/features of the Bhu-mandala, otherwise called Bhu-gola. In fact, the very name Bhu-gola is invoked in the verse below that describes the complete size of the Earth. After describing these seven islands and other features of Bhu-mandala up to the point of Lokaloka Mountain, Sukadeva Gosvami summarizes his description in SB 5.20.38:
“Learned scholars who are free from mistakes, illusions and propensities to cheat have thus described the planetary systems and their particular symptoms, measurements and locations. With great deliberation, they have established the truth that the distance between Sumeru and the mountain known as Lokaloka is one fourth of the diameter of the universe—or, in other words, 125,000,000 yojanas [1 billion miles].” (SB 5.20.38)
Bhumandala – the shape of the Earth
Herein Sukadeva Goswami states that learned scholars who are free from mistakes, illusions, and propensities to cheat, have calculated that the distance from Mount Meru to Lokaloka Mountain is 125,000,000 yojanas (1 billion miles), which is a quarter of the overall size of Bhu-gola. Mount Meru is a golden mountain at the very center of Bhu-gola; and Lokaloka Mountain is a billion miles away along the vast Earth plane. Lokaloka is the most prominent feature on the Bhu-mandala and it is so huge that it blocks the sunlight from going to the outer reaches of the Earth. The dark area of the Earth is called aloka-varsha. The point made here by Sukadeva Goswami is that since one billion miles is a quarter of the Bhu-gola, then it’s complete diameter is 4 billion miles. The Sanskrit and English synonyms for this part of the verse are:
pancashat-koti—500,000,000 yojanas; ganitasya—which is measured at; bhu-golasya—of the planetary system known as Bhugolaka; turiya-bhagah—one fourth; ayam—this; lokaloka-acalah—the mountain known as Lokaloka.
This is further confirmed in the commentaries by the acharyas from Commentaries on 5th Canto Bhagavatam Cosmology by Vaisnava Acaryas edited by Danavir Goswami:
“To facilitate the knowledge of the height and width of the mountain, the dimension of the earth is first mentioned here. The learned say that the Earth is 500,000,000 yojanas [4 billion miles]. (Commentary by Viraraghava, SB 16.20.38)
The celestial sphere and the terrestrial sphere [vertical and horizontal spheres are both 500,000,000 yojanas [4 billion miles] in width. A fourth of it will be 125,000,000 yojanas [1 billion miles]. (Commentary by Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, SB 16.20.38)
The extent of the entire Earth is known to be 500,000,000 yojanas [4 billion miles] by great people. A fourth of it will be 125,000,000 yojanas [1 billion miles]. (Bhagavatprasadacarya, SB 16.20.38)
In the verse quoted above (SB 16.20.38), Sukadeva Goswami gives the measurement from Mount Meru (the center of Bhu-gola or Bhu-mandala) to Lokaloka mountain as 1 billion miles (or a quarter of the overall diameter of the universe). Now since this one area of Bhu-gola is 1 billion miles which is a quarter of the overall diameter of the universe (4 billion miles), the Bhu-gola cannot possibly be referring to a so-called Earth globe floating in space with an alleged circumference of only 24,900 miles. In addition, since the seven islands and their surrounding oceans stretch for hundreds of millions of miles across the vast horizontal plane of the Bhu-gola, they cannot be referring to the continents of our Earth. In other words, it is simply wrong to think that the word Bhu-gola is referring to, or describing, a small round globe in space such as that presented by NASA in their photos of Earth from so-called outer space. Thus, Bhu-gola cannot possibly be equated with, or identified as the assumed Earth globe of 24,900 miles circumference. No description of a small Earth globe is actually given in any of the 18,000 verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam or in any other Purana. Such an entity simply does not exist in the Vedas, and as we have argued in previous papers, does not exist at all.
The verse quoted above (SB 16.20.38), and the subsequent commentaries by the acaryas, clearly state that learned scholars (kavibhih) describe the Earth (Bhu-gola) as 4 billion miles in diameter; a quarter of this distance (from Mount Meru to Lokaloka Mountain) is 1 billion miles. In his translation Srila Prabhupada qualifies the word learned scholars (kavibhih) as those who are free from ‘mistakes, illusions and propensities to cheat.’ This is an interesting qualification, and particularly in relation to the verse in question. It is, therefore, simply unacceptable that respectable disciples of Srila Prabhupada such as Rajashekhara dasa, Gaura-gopal dasa, Danavir Goswami etc., as well as representatives and defenders of the globe model within the TOVP, continue to propagate this false notion that Bhu-gola refers to a supposed Earth globe—despite having the truth of the matter having been brought to their personal attention on a number of occasions. I offer my respects to all these devotees, but I must insist on requesting them to preach accurate information. One may continue to present arguments in favour of the idea that the Earth is a globe if that is what you believe, but clearly the use of the name Bhu-gola cannot be included as one of them.
By presenting a few statements from Srila Prabhupada equating Bhu-gola with a round Earth, these supporters of the globe maintain a seeming loyalty to Srila Prabhupada, whilst, in fact, completely ignoring Srila Prabhupada’s consistent and insistent statements to follow the version of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The above verse conclusively establishes that Srimad-Bhagavatam defines and describes as Bhu-gola as a 4 billion mile circular plane. So how can anyone continue to argue that the name Bhu-gola is a reference to the supposed Earth globe of 24,900 mile circumference?
Srila Prabhupada’s use of English language is very interesting:
“Just try to understand, but don’t try to misunderstand.” (Speech to Indian Audience Montreal, July 28, 1968)
It would seem a funny thing that someone would want “to try and misunderstand,” but that unfortunately is what appears to be happening. Rather than accepting the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s clear description of Bhu-gola as a vast circular Earth disc, for some reason devotees ‘try to misunderstand’ and come up with convoluted arguments to insist that Bhu-gola is referring to a so-called Earth globe. Such attempts are not at all loyal to Srila Prabhupada; in fact, they discredit his own absolute fidelity to Sukadeva Goswami. Srila Prabhupada made a few statements equating Bhu-gola with the supposed ’round Earth’ or Earth globe simply because at the time of his preaching, no thorough study or discussion of the fifth canto cosmology had been made. It was Srila Prabhupada’s own desire that his disciples ‘carefully study the details of the Fifth Canto and make a working model of the universe,’ (Letter from Srila Prabhupada to Svarupa Damodara dasa, April 27, 1976)
So taking this instruction to carefully study the details of the fifth canto, we need to back to the original verse describing the measurement of Bhu-gola (see verse SB 16.20.38 cited above). Srila Prabhupada in the word for word synonyms to this verse, the Sanskrit word vicintitah has been translated as ‘established by scientific calculations.’ The sense is that learned scholars (kavibhih) have arrived at a calculation of the Earth’s measurement of 4 billion miles because they have studied the subject with great consideration (vicintitah). The word is also found in the Siksastakam of Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu: sthita-dhuli-sadrsam vicintaya ‘Kindly consider Me (vicintaya) a particle of dust at Your lotus feet.’ (CC Antya-lila, 20.32). The Sanskrit dictionary defines vicint as: ‘to think about, to consider, to ponder over, to meditate upon, to take into consideration, to have regard for, to find out, to discern, to discover, to determine, to perceive, to observe.’ The use of this word by Sukadeva Goswami is carefully selected and appropriate for the reason that some people (including some members of ISKCON) may try to pass the whole subject of the Bhu-mandala as inconceivable. The Sanskrit word for thinking about something is vicintya. By contrast, one of the Sanskrit words for something that is inconceivable is avicintya. We find the word used, for example, in the Brahma-samhita where it states that without devotion to the Lord, the great thinkers (muni-pungavanam) cannot understand Govinda because He is avicintya-tattve—beyond material conception (Bs 5.34). In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is described that the Lord has avicintya-shakti inconceivable energies (Adi-lila 7.124). Sukadeva Goswami, however, carefully uses the word vicintya not avicintya in regards to the measurement of the great Earth circle, which means it is something that one can understand by meditating and thinking about the subject. It is not a subject that is inconceivable or incomprehensible. We likewise encourage the members of ISKCON to follow the path of learned authorities by ‘thinking’ about the subject, and not to be led astray by the false propaganda of unthinking dogmatists trying to convince you that you live on an Earth planet, when you may, in fact, be living on a great Earth plane.
The implications of these huge measurements of the Bhu-mandala were never brought to Srila Prabhupada for his consideration. In the summer of 1977, Srila Prabhupada had asked some devotees to prepare maps of the Vedic cosmos according to Srimad-Bhagavatam in preparation for the display at the Vedic planetarium. At the end of June, a map of Bhu-mandala had been prepared, and some discussion took place over a few days. Even with a map the devotees had not yet come to grips with the enormous implications of what Sukadeva Goswami was describing, and what this meant for the Earth globe:
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, previously we painted in the art department… Just like Varaha lifted the earth, and the earth was a globe, and we showed also a globe of the earth. How does that relate to this? Previously, when we painted, we showed the earth a ball. So now the artists will be very confused. How it fell in the Garbha Ocean as a ball?
Yashodanandana: It depends on what we mean by earth. The Western conception of earth is just five continents and a few oceans, but according to Bhagavatam, earth means Jambudvipa, because earth is connected with Jambudvipa.
Devotee (2): So whole Jambudvipa fell.
Bhakti-Prema: Bhagavata describes the height of Himalayas, eighty thousand miles.
Prabhupada: No, about this Earth globe.
Bhakti-Prema: About the Earth it describes four billion miles.
Tamala Krishna: That means Jambudvipa.
Bhakti-Prema: No, that means complete Earth, four billion miles. That is eight lakhs miles [800,000 miles], Jambudvipa.
Tamala Krishna: Four billion is the universe.
Bhakti-Prema: Bhu-mandala!
Tamala Krshna: Bhu-mandala! Oh, the Bhagavatam describes Bhu-mandala as Earth.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Yashodanandana: Bhumi.
Bhakti-Prema: …has come right from the ocean, from the bottom of the ocean.
Prabhupada: So explained there. Then this question is solved.
Tamala Krishna: Yes. The whole Bhu-mandala fell.
Bhakti-Prema: So the universe is round, and from bottom of the Garbhodaka ocean to top of Satyaloka there is four billion miles. Then the again, from east to west again is another four billion miles. Because Bhu-mandala is situated in between the earth.
Prabhupada: Explain. He’ll explain.
Bhakti-prema dasa rightly points out that the diameter of the Earth is four billion miles, and that it was the entire Bhu-mandala (not some so-called Earth globe) that fell into the Garbhodaka Ocean. He also corrects the misunderstanding of Yasodanandana Prabhu and Tamala Krishna Goswami regarding Jambudwipa. Jambudvipa is the name of the central island of Bhu-mandala, not the name of the Earth itself. Unfortunately, the following conclusion didn’t arise: since the Earth is 4 billion miles, and the central island of Bhu-mandala is Jambudwipa which is 800,000 miles, then Bharata-varsha (which is part of the island of Jambudwipa) cannot be a separate globe-like planet floating in space. From the description, Bharata-varsha is just a tiny area that is situated on the Earth’s massive plane; it is not a planet floating in space.
This line of reasoning was never put to Srila Prabhupada for his consideration. The devotees involved here at not at fault as the process of inquiry into the nature of Bhu-mandala was really only beginning, and it was already late in the day: Srila Prabhupada entered samadhi just a few months later without any resolution as to the nature of the Earth and our place upon it.
We should faithfully accept that Sukadeva Goswami is providing the real measurements and characteristic features of the Earth (Bhu-gola). If Krishna is real, then the Earth of Srimad-Bhagavatam is real, which obliges everyone in ISKCON to at least consider the possibility that the globe idea is based on either ignorance/speculation on the part of scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo and Newton, etc., as well as deliberate falsehood on the part of NASA and other space agencies. It also requires that we calmly discuss what Srila Prabhupada himself about the Earth.
Srila Prabhupada, for example, sometimes referred to Bhu-gola and even Bharata-varsha as the Earth globe, but Bharata-varsha, is just part of the Bhu-gola; it is not the Bhu-gola itself. Bharata-varsha is located in the southern side of Jambudwipa, the central island of Bhu-gola. Bharata-varsha is located just a few hundreds thousand miles south of Meru:
“This Earth planet is known as Bharata, or Bharata-varsha” (SB 1.12.20)
“…after whose name this planet Earth was called Bharata-varsha.” (SB 2.7.10 Purport)
In the absence of a map of Bhu-mandala, the word ‘planet’ was simply Srila Prabhupada’s default word for describing any place in the universe; but strictly speaking Bharata-varsha (as described by Sukadeva Goswami) is not a planet. Bharata-varsha is literally that—a varsha! A varsha is a division in a landscape caused by mountains. Bharata-varsha, therefore, is simply one of the nine divisions/regions/areas on the super-continent known as Jambudwipa. It is the varsha named after Bharata, the eldest son of Lord Rsabhadeva (SB 11.2.17). So Bharata-varsha is just a part of Jambudwipa (the central island of the Great Earth plane) and not a separate Earth planet in space. Again, it requires acceptance of the Bhagavatam’s conception of the Earth in order to accommodate the idea, but that is what Srila Prabhupada expected of us—to believe in Srimad-Bhagavatam! Srila Prabhupada’s use of the word ‘planet’ is understandable considering the circumstance, but what excuse is there for those supposedly studying the subject and who should know better? Despite the now clear description of Bharata-varsha’s location on the plane of the Earth circle, there are devotees writing and lecturing on this subject who nonetheless, continue to propagate the false idea that Bharata-varsha is the so-called Earth planet floating in space. Why do this?
Map of Jambudvipa
Yes, Srila Prabhupada referred to Bharata-varsha as a planet, but it was for reasons already stated in previous papers: until June of 1977, Srila Prabhupada had no map of the Bhu-mandala, and hence Bharata-varsha’s position on the Earth plane was unclear. When eventually a map of Bhu-mandala was produced and questions about the contradictions between the modern and Vedic conceptions of the Earth arose, Srila Prabhupada did not give a direct answer to the question of the Earth’s shape, but his unequivocal instruction was for his disciples to understand and present Srimad-Bhagavatam’s cosmology exactly as it is described:
Prabhupada: We do not require to satisfy the scientists. We have to describe according to our book. That’s all. If they can understand, let them understand. Otherwise… It is not our business to satisfy the so-called scientists. We are giving the real description. (Room Conversation, June 18, 1977, Vrindavana)
We have discussed in previous papers that apart from speaking on a few particular instances (such as questions regarding the moon), the ins and outs of Vedic cosmology was not an area of the spiritual science where Srila Prabhupada considered himself as a learned authority. In the area of Vedic cosmology and its presentation within the TOVP, Srila Prabhupada (guru) re-directed the research to his disciples (sadhus) whom he requested to study the fifth canto (shastra) and present a working model of the universe:
Carefully study the details of the Fifth Canto and make a working model of the universe,’ (Letter from Srila Prabhupada to Svarupa Damodara dasa, April 27, 1976).
In other words, if we are to follow the statements of guru, sadhu, and shastra on this issue of the Earth, the gurus instruction on Vedic cosmology was for his disciples to study the fifth canto and work it out; not that guru necessarily had all the answers:
Yasoda-nandana: Prabhupada, what is the shape of this tiny portion of earth or whatever place we are on? What is the shape of this, whatever you call…
Prabhupada: Ask them. Why don’t you ask them? Sometimes they say flat, sometimes they say it is round. Why don’t you ask them, the scientists?
Yasoda-nandana: We don’t accept what they say.
Prabhupada: No, no. Formerly they were under the impression the world is flat. And now they are saying round. So what they’ll say after few years?
Yasoda-nandana: They are not consistent. That’s a fact. They’re very inconsistent in their theories.
Prabhupada: Ask them which is correct. “Probably” this is correct.
Bhakti-prema: When someone asks this question, first one would reply.
Prabhupada: I answered it. You people say like that, so which is correct? Flat or round?
Tamala Krishna: They will say “What does the Bhagavatam say?”
Prabhupada: Huh?
Tamala Krishna: They may reply to us, “All right, we are rascals. So please tell us what is the fact.”
Prabhupada: That is, we are…
Tamala Krishna: That’s what he’s asking. What should be shown? Actually we’re a little stumped by… I mean…
Prabhupada: Yes, you must have proper answer as far as possible.
Tamala Krishna: We just read… We got a version from South India, and we’ve even found that there are different conceptions of what the Bhagavata is saying. But the Puranas, they give some Puranic references.
Bhakti-prema: It is written the world… The earth is round and flat.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bhakti-prema: Earth is round and flat both, together.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhakti-prema: First we should reply it is acintya. This should be the reply. “Inconceivable.”
Yasoda-nandana: If it is inconceivable, then they will say how we can conceive it?
Prabhupada: Take the version of Bhagavatam…
…we have to accept shastra.
(Discussions about Bhu-mandala, July 5 1977, Vrindavana)
Here Bhakti-prema dasa says that the Earth is round and flat together which, of course, is the accurate description. Bhu-mandala is round and flat taking the form of a huge circular plane that crosses the center of the universe.
Bhu-mandala – with all the Dvipas, Jambu-dvipa in the center
The important point here is that Srila Prabhupada’s answer to questions about the Earth was to find the answer in Srimad-Bhagavatam; his insistence is on following Srimad-Bhagavatam. Who then can cite a Sanskrit verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam that describes our Earth as a small planet floating in space? Such a verse doesn’t exist in Srimad-Bhagavatam for the simple reason that Bharata-varsha is where Sukadeva Goswami describes it—at the southern side of Jambudwipa (the central island of the Earth plane). Bharata-varsha is not floating in space, it is on the plane of the great Earth circle, specifically at the southern side of Jambudwipa.
Jambudwipa – the great round flat earth plane with Bharata-varsha on the south
Since Srimad-Bhagavatam describes Bharata-varsha as part of Jambudwipa, what is the practical relevance of that information for us here in Bharata-varsha? It means that our world (according to Srimad-Bhagavatam) is part of a greater Earth flat plane that is surrounded by more land and more ocean. This is the world-view of Srimad-Bhagavatam and it is this world-view that is meant to be presented via the TOVP as a factual reality. The Earth of Srimad-Bhagavatam is a revolutionary world-view, not some quaint intellectual concept conveniently rubber-stamped and pigeon-holed as ‘Vedic cosmology,’ but without any relevance or challenge to our self-assured belief that we are hovering though space on a so-called Earth globe. People are in complete darkness regarding their situation in the universe and it is this ignorance that is meant to be dispelled by the revelation of Srimad-Bhagavatam and it’s presentation within the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium. As a follower of Srimad-Bhagavatam I accept and am convinced of the idea that the continents of Earth must be resting on the great horizontal plane of Bhu-mandala, and that they do not curve around a globe-shaped planet that is supposedly floating in space. Empirical science at least validates that we live on a flat plane (there is no observable measurable curvature to the Earth). As yet, the karma does not allow for the discovery of other lands surrounding our own, but the existence of other lands is to be ascertained from Srimad-Bhagavatam. This is the message that I believe should be presented to the world via the TOVP.
Such a presentation, of course, involves exposing the fraudulent science and politics that has led to the creation of a ‘global’ mindset where the people of the world now believe they are on a globe-shaped planet flying through godless dark space. This will take time to establish. The problem, of course, is that most of the devotees in ISKCON (like everyone else in the world), have been educated and conditioned into believing that the Earth is a globe; and it’s difficult, of course, to overcome belief in such a powerful icon as the Earth globe:
The conclusion of the Bhu-mandala discussions is that after some initial discussion on the issues raised about the Earth and related issues of Vedic cosmology, Srila Prabhupada basically left his disciples to work it out:
“And during the summer of ’77, Prabhupada had a lot of meetings with him and Tamala Krishna Maharaja to discuss how to do this Vedic Planetarium. And they actually sent people out, and they tried to get people from South India; there was a lot of effort that was made, you know, to try to get a good concept of how to present it. But they couldn’t find anybody who was able to do it; at least not to Prabhupada’s satisfaction. So it was one of those things that Prabhupada left with us.” (Interview with Hari Sauri dasa from Danavir Goswami’s Vedic Cosmos documentary)
It is apparent that in the absence of a clear conception of Bhu-mandala, Srila Prabhupada simply spoke of the Earth in conventional terms as a globe or a planet, but his real desire was for his disciples to study the details of the fifth canto and present a working model of the universe as it is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. An understanding of the Earth is, of course, central to any model. Srila Prabhupada wanted to revive and present knowledge of the Vedic version via the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium, but there are those who are seemingly not so convinced of the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s model. Ironically, those in the TOVP management are particularly entrenched in the ‘global’ world-view—a world-view that has absolutely nothing to do with what they are meant to be presenting—the Earth according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, not the Earth according to Copernicus, Galileo and Newton! The quick-fix argument is that Srila Prabhupada called the Earth a ‘globe’ and a ‘planet,’ and Srila Prabhupada can’t be wrong; therefore that’s the end of the argument—the Earth is a globe! But that is not the end of the argument, because it is not a question of Srila Prabhupada being wrong; it is a question of Srila Prabhupada requesting us to find out what is right by careful study of the fifth canto.
It is either a lack of knowledge of the subject, or simply a lack of faith in the Earth being described by Sukadeva Goswami that leads one to favouring the Earth presented by so-called scientists and space agencies. The result of this lack of understanding or lack of faith is a series of many convoluted arguments from those members of ISKCON who are bent on trying to reconcile two incompatible conceptions of the Earth and the universe. The result is ‘hodgepodge’ (to quote one of Srila Prabhupada’s favourite words); a mish-mash of ideas that are full of glaring contradictions:
“You have to accept anything from the authorized source. So according to Vedic civilization, all knowledge is received from the Vedas, perfect authorized source. Sruti-pramana, evidence from the sruti, from the Vedas, that is perfect. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, if you want to establish something you have to quote the section or the injunction from the Vedas, Then it is perfect. In learned circle you cannot say anything hodge-podge. That will not be accepted. If you support your statement from the evidence of the Vedas, then you are accepted as authority.” (Bg 16.9, Hawaii, February 5, 1975)
“If you read hodge-podge, then you will not be able to understand. Therefore sadhu. And sadhu means he gives quotation from sastras, authorized sastra He’s sadhu. Sadhu will not give anything manufactured by him. No. He’s not sadhu. Sadhu means whatever he’ll speak, immediately he’ll give evidence from the sastra. Sadhu-sastra-guru. And guru means who is following sadhu and sastra.” (SB 1.2.7, Vrindavana, October 18, 1972)
Again, I present my challenge is for anyone to cite a Sanskrit verse from Srimad-Bhagavatamthat describes our Earth as a small planet floating in space? The location of Bharata-varsha on the plane of Bhu-mandala is otherwise clearly described in SB 5.16.1-9. One is free to believe what they wish, but for one who has little or no faith in the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the Earth, then at least be honest enough to admit it. If one has no knowledge or faith in what Sukadeva Goswami is describing, then please don’t earn a livelihood in the TOVP presenting false conceptions of the Vedic Earth; or otherwise try to acquire a name and position in the lecturing circuit by speaking contrary to the truth established by Srimad-Bhagavatam. I’m not accusing anyone of being of such a mentality, or of the mentality described below, but I present the following two verses as a reminder and a cautionary warning:
“Uncultured men will accept charity on behalf of the Lord and will earn their livelihood by making a show of austerity and wearing a mendicant’s dress. Those who know nothing about religion will mount a high seat and presume to speak on religious principles.” (SB 12.3.38)
vaksyanti—will speak about; adharma-jnah—those who know nothing about religion; adhiruhya—mounting; uttama-asanam—a high seat.
The Earth has a specific nature or dharma (characteristic); if the TOVP present the wrong idea about the Earth that is adharma-jnah. Remember, the TOVP’s mandate is not to present the Earth as it is understood by Western cosmology; the mandate is to present the Earth as it is described according to Vedic cosmology—specifically as it is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam’s fifth canto. One may personally consider such a description to be either right or wrong, real or fantasy, an amazing revelation or un-scientific mythology, but please let the preaching be based on and reflect Srila Prabhupada’s firm faith in Srimad-Bhagavatam’scosmology as a description of a spiritual reality. Srila Prabhupada did not speak against the globe idea because at that time, the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s mysterious description of the Earth had not been fully clear. Nonetheless, Srila Prabhupada preached full faith in the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the universe as a description of reality, not mythology. Since Bharata-varsha is located in Jambudwipa, then that should be presented as the reality. Unfortunately, within the TOVP management, the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of our place on the great Earth circle does not appear to be appreciated as a factual reality; otherwise, why are representatives from the TOVP still arguing that the Earth is a globe-like planet floating in space? Yes, the TOVP representatives can produce exhibitions, animated movies, and books describing and depicting the vast expanse of Bhu-mandala and thus claim to be faithfully representing Srimad-Bhagavatam, but do the creators of such images take it seriously? As mentioned, Bharata-varsha is simply part of Jambudwipa, the central island of Bhu-mandala; it is not a separate planet floating in space. Despite Srimad-Bhagavatamdescribing Bharata-varsha as part of the island of Jambudwipa, the TOVP management are insistent on making people believe that Bharata-varsha is a so-called Earth globe floating in space. Does that demonstrate faith in Srimad-Bhagavatam? Why are they presenting this contrary idea when Sukadeva Goswami’s description of Bharata-varsha’s location on the Bhu-mandala is clear.
According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bharata-varsha is not a planet floating in space; it is just part of a much bigger Earth that we have not been told about. Is that such a surprise? Could we just possibly be living in a massive illusion regarding who we are, and where we are? Remember that concept – we are not this body! Are we still in that illusion? If so, then what other illusions engulf us? We can continue thinking that “I am an American,” “I am a Russian,” “I am an Indian,” and “I live in my country, and my country is part of the Earth globe.” But what does Srimad-Bhagavatam say: “Hey! You are not that body! And the Earth is not a globe, but a great big circle that crosses the universe—how about that!” We may not know or believe that the continents of our Earth area are just a small part of a much great Earth plane, but that is what Srimad-Bhagavatam states, and that is what we are meant to know (and believe). I appreciate it’s a difficult concept to grasp, but that’s what it says! We can’t manufacture a different idea of the Vedic Earth simply because we are uncomfortable with the original description. Those members of ISKCON who are unable to relinquish their western conditioning, simply continue to superimpose the globe idea onto the original description of Bhu-mandala—as if no one would notice or protest! This propagation of a false idea regarding the Earth amounts to adharma-jnah. They do not know the dharma (nature) of the Earth, but they speak as though they do:
vaksyanti—will speak about; adharma-jnah—those who know nothing about religion;adhiruhya—mounting;uttama-asanam—a high seat. (SB 12.3.38)
The result, unfortunately, is more propagation of untruth. Ironically, the Earth is upheld by the truth, and she falls under the burden of untruth:
“The Earth is supported (upheld) by the truth.” (Atharva Veda 14.1.1)
“There is nothing more sinful than untruthfulness. Because of this, mother earth once said, “I can bear any heavy thing except a person who is a liar. (SB 8.20.4)PURPORT:
On the surface of the earth there are many great mountains and oceans that are very heavy, and mother earth has no difficulty carrying them. But she feels very much overburdened when she carries even one person who is a liar. It is said that in Kali-yuga lying is a common affair: mayaiva vyavaharike (SB 12.2.3). Even in the most common dealings, people are accustomed to speaking so many lies. No one is free from the sinful reactions of speaking lies. Under the circumstances, one can just imagine how this has overburdened the earth, and indeed the entire universe.”
Again, I’m not accusing any devotee of having a lying mentality, but I present the above verse as a cautionary warning. Anything other than presentation of the truth is propagation of maya or illusion, so we need be careful to know and live in the truth. The false ego is strong, and does not hesitate to propagate lies and untruth in order propagate or to protect its own false prestige. The false ego may not wish to be associated with a belief system that denies the Earth is a globe. The false ego may want acceptance from within the prevailing paradigm of scientism, and may fear the ridicule that follows for daring to question or challenge it. Much like going against the sacred theory of evolution, to go against the globe is to go against the ‘global’ ideology propagated by science, government, media, military, and even religion. To go against the globe is to go against one’s family and friends who may have never questioned the subject for themselves, but who have unfortunately been conditioned to fear and ridicule anyone who does so. For many people, the safest idea is to simply believe that we live on a globe, and that we have the science and photos to prove it—as if such science couldn’t possible be false, and as if such images couldn’t possibly be fake! So put it to the test! Why fear this subject?
Is the globe a lie? Who is courageous enough and philosophical enough to question what is the truth and what are the illusions surrounding this topic? Who is so weak in character that they are more intent on preserving false ego than in establishing the truth? The TOVP is a massive project which will eventually cost hundreds of million of dollars. It is a place for big reputations to be made or destroyed. Let’s hope that any reputations are reputations built on the truth, and not on falsehood. For devotees of Krishna the truth is established by shastra; and the shastra’s description of the Earth is clear. It is one’s prerogative to believe it or not, but if one does not believe it, then please don’t present a lie in the name of presenting so-called Vedic cosmology. Any presentation of an Earth globe in the name of Srimad Bhagavatm’s cosmology is pure concoction, and can be arrived at only by twisted and convoluted arguments that wholly depart from the straightforward meaning:
“Don’t interpret. Don’t screw out your concocted meaning. Then your life is successful. Every politician, every scholar, everyone is trying to screw out some meaning.
That is the disease.” (Conversation, June 18, 1976, Toronto)
My purpose here is to insist on fidelity to the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the Earth which is the one meant to be presented in the TOVP. The argument regarding the nature of the Earth or Bhu-gola (among devotees at least), is to be settled primarily on the basis of shastra; empirical proofs against the globe model are secondary and supportive. My intention at this point is merely to establish what the shastra is saying. The Bhu-gola in question is certainly not a description of the so-called Earth globe because the Bhu-gola described has a diameter of four billion miles, and has an 800,000 mile high golden mountain in its center. Nor is the rest of the Bhu-gola in another dimension which is the quick fix answer to something that most people find inconceivable.
(1.3) THE THREE DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSE
Rather than accept this straightforward conclusion that our Earth area is situated on the plane of Bhu-mandala, the devotee community has been self-satisfied with convoluted arguments that suggest the things described (landscapes and mountains measuring vast distances and colossal heights) must necessarily be in another dimension. However, Sukadeva Goswami’s descriptions of places in the universe are described in the normal three dimensions (length, breadth, and height). The length, breadth, and height of each area are described, as well as the distance in yojanas from one place to another. Places are described as being to the east or west of each other by a certain measurement; or to the north or south of each other; some things are described as being above the Earth’s surface by a certain measurement of yojanas, and some are below the surface. So both measurements and directions are described in the normal three dimensions; there is no question that the things described are in another dimension. Everything described is measurable using normal distances and directions; indeed, according to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, the very definition of the confined material world is that is measurable:
Question: “What is Maya?”
Answer: “The derivative meaning of maya is ‘what is measurable.’ Bhagavan is the Lord of maya; He cannot be measured. Where there is attempt to measure God, there is maya and not God. ‘Ma’ means ‘not’ and ‘ya’ means ‘what’, i.e., ‘what is not God’, is maya.” (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Interview with Shyamasundar Chakravarty)
The material world is measurable because it exists in three dimensions, length, breadth, and width. The only other dimension that Sukadeva Goswami describes is the fourth dimension (turya) which is the spiritual or transcendental dimension. The word turya is interesting. It can mean a fourth, a quarter, as well as the fourth state of existence (Brahman or transcendence). Interestingly Srila Prabhupada translates the word as ‘the fourth dimension.’
“This is the position, transcendentally. How we use this word transcendental, that is explained here, what is transcendental. Turya. Turya, the fourth dimension. Here, in this material world, there are three dimensions: length, breadth and height. And spiritual world, beyond that, not within the measurement of length, breadth and height, that is called turya…” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.32, Mayapur, March 10, 1976)
Throughout Srimad-Bhagavatam and Caitanya-caritamrta, Krishna is referred to as being the fourth dimension, or simply as ‘the fourth’ (turya), for example:
“”Superficially we see that these purushas have a relationship with maya, but above them, in the fourth dimension, is Lord Krishna, who has no contact with the material energy. (CC Adi 2.52) turiya—the fourth; krsnera—of Lord Krsna; nahi—there is not; mayara—of the material energy; sambandha—connection.
Purport… The transcendental position of Sri Krishna Himself is not even slightly tinged by maya. His transcendental state is called turiya, or the fourth-dimensional stage.”
Again:
“narayane turiyakhye bhagavac -chabda-shabdite—Narayana, known as the fourth factor, full of all opulences (SB 11.15.16)
narayane—in the Supreme Lord, Narayana; turiya-akhye—known as the fourth, beyond the three modes of material nature; bhagavat—full of all opulences
Everything within the material world is comprised of the three modes of nature and is measurable. Therefore, Mount Meru is not in another dimension; it is just a further measurable distance along the Earth plane from our own position here in Bharata-varsha. The distance from the southern coast of Bharata-varsha to the center of Mount Meru is 400,000 miles. In order to understand the location of Mount Meru on the Earth, we don’t need to introduce a concept of other dimensions; we just need to change our concept of the Earth bringing it into alignment with the great Earth circle that is described by Sukadeva Goswami. Mount Meru and the rest of Jambudwipa is not in another dimension; it is in this same three dimensional world that we all experience. Thus, Srila Prabhupada accepted the colossal measurements of Meru, etc, as a description of factual reality. He otherwise translated turyaas the fourth dimension which is beyond the measurable three dimensional material world:
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is by nature joyful. His enjoyments, or pastimes, are completely transcendental. He is in the fourth dimension of existence, for although the material world is measured by the limitations of length, breadth and height, the Supreme Lord is completely unlimited in His body, form and existence.” (Purport CC Adi 2.18)
Again, we must emphasize the point made by Prabhupada here: ‘the material world is measured by the limitations of length, breadth and height.’ This is a description of a three dimensional reality. Thus the huge measurements given by Sukadeva Goswami for the Earth’s landscapes, oceans, and mountains should be accepted as factual places on Earth, and not places in some other dimension. This obviously requires a radical critique of our present concept of the Earth, as well as a willingness to accept a new paradigm about the nature of the world we live in.
The only other dimension is the fourth dimension or transcendental world. It is interesting how Prabhupada integrated this concept into his own way of thinking and experience:
“Please accept my blessings. Karandhara has informed me of the receipt of the letter from you reporting the establishment of an ISKCON Center in Rome, Italy. The transcendental bliss I have derived from hearing the news is not measurable within the three dimensions. I thank you very much for your humble service and I pray to Krsna to always protect and bless you.” (Letter to Dhananjaya, Los Angeles, 23 December, 1973)
In a previous article we have argued in greater detail that the rest of the Earth is not in another dimension, but is just surrounding our known Earth area.
We are unable to access other areas of the Earth because our karma keeps us bound like a bull bound to a stake; we simply go round and round our allotted jurisdiction, and are blinkered from seeing further afield.
The exercise of mystic power may make us think that things are coming from another dimension, but they are just a more subtle manipulation of the same three dimensional space.
CONCLUSION
We have shown in these first two papers that the Earth according to Srimad-Bhagavatam has a diameter of 4 billion miles and a depth of hundreds of thousands of miles. Will the TOVP present this description of the Earth as a description of reality? If so, then the conception of the Earth globe can’t stand with it. The two models are completely opposed descriptions of reality.
If the globe falls, the whole rotten system of atheistic scientism falls down with it. Therefore, rather than foolishly making an exhibition within the TOVP to glorify this false concept of an Earth globe, a world famous exhibition should be prepared to refute and expose the false scientific claims that have led to this belief in this Earth globe concept. Sure it will be a war, but thus the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam will be proven true:
On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world’s misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest. (SB 1.5.11)
Mayesvara das: Is the Earth a small globe-shaped planet in space, or is our Earth area (as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam) part of a much greater Earth that forms a huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe?
Mahesh: First of all, according to your statement about the small globe-shaped Earth is not my idea of VEDIC version of earth Globe. Which would be BIGGER GLOBE. Obviously, this small version YOU are talking about is what is accepted version of equatorial circumference of Earth is about 24,900 miles (40,070 km). Now the question is WHERE do you get “as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam) part of a much greater Earth that forms a huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe?” WHERE is this PARTICULAR reference to this in the Srimad Bhagavatam? Please show us this REFERENCE FROM Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam. Below the SEVEN ISLANDS have been given but it is the question of their size in terms of VEDIC SIZE. Another point is these lands MAY be FAR BIGGER then what is actually shown on the accepted version of media:
Prabhupāda: This island might have changed, the name. Because there are so many islands. Just like the Java(?) island and Laksadvipa island, very small islands. Similarly, this Meru is also another island. Not only these small island, but according to Vedic culture, each planet is called island. Each planet. Just like this planet, earthly planet, is called Jambūdvīpa. Why it is called dvīpa? Dvīpa means island. Because actually it is island of the air. Just like there are so many islands in the sea, similarly, this vast air, outer space, and all these planets, are floating like island. Therefore they are called island, dvīpa, Jambūdvīpa. Here in this earthly planet, long, long ago, it is said in the Vedic literatures, sapta-dvīpa. Sapta means seven. So this earthly planet is of seven dvīpa, seven islands. These two Americas, north and south, they are islands. Africa, one island. And combined Asia and Europe, another island. The two poles, two islands. Australia, another island. You see? Sapta-dvīpa. So they say they discovered America. But this discovery was long, long, many, many millions of years, it was known.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/sb/1/16/12/los_angeles/january/09/1974
Hare Krsna,
I would like to say my experience.
This theme and Mayesvara Prabhu’s writings are very interesting. But Mayesvara Prabhu means a group and more devotee’ work TOO. So this theme can detract a seeker devotee’s attention while there are other interests behind issue of the flat Earth too. Of course I am sure that devotees can work with sincere heart in that group..
Maybe Ritvik devotees should decide that whether this absorbing theme will service their spiritual advancement or not.
Hare Krsna
NINE KHAṆḌAS
TEXT 10
sapta-dvīpera loka āra nava-khaṇḍa-vāsī
deva, gandharva, kinnara manuṣya-veśe āsi’
SYNONYMS
sapta-dvīpera loka—people from all of the seven islands within the universe; āra—and; nava-khaṇḍa-vāsī—the in habitants of the nine khaṇḍas; deva—demigods; gandharva—the inhabitants of Gandharvaloka; kinnara—the inhabitants of Kinnaraloka; manuṣya-veśe—in the form of human beings; āsi’-coming.
TRANSLATION
People from all over the universe, including the seven islands, the nine khaṇḍas, the planets of the demigods, Gandharvaloka and Kinnaraloka, would go there in the forms of human beings.
PURPORT
For an explanation of sapta-dvīpa, see Madhya-līlā, Chapter Twenty, verse 218, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Canto, Chapters Sixteen and Twenty. in the Siddhānta-śiromaṇi, Chapter One (Golādhyāya), in the Bhuvana-kośa section, the nine khaṇḍas are mentioned as follows:
aindraṁ kaśeru sakalaṁ kila tāmraparṇam
anyad gabhastimad ataś ca kumārikākhyam
nāgaṁ ca saumyam iha vāruṇam antya-khaṇḍaṁ
gāndharva-saṁjñam iti bhārata-varṣa-madhye
“WITHIN BHĀRATA-VARṢA, THERE ARE NINE KHAṆḌAS. THEY ARE KNOWN AS (1) AINDRA, (2) KAŚERU, (3) TĀMRAPARṆA, (4) GABHASTIMAT, (5) KUMĀRIKĀ, (6) NĀGA (7) SAUMYA, (8) VĀRUṆA AND (9) GĀNDHARVA.”
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/antya/2/10
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TEXT 218
ei-mata brahmāṇḍa-madhye sabāra ‘parakāśa’
sapta-dvīpe nava-khaṇḍe yāṅhāra vilāsa
SYNONYMS
ei-mata—in this way; brahmāṇḍa-madhye—within this universe; sabāra—of all of Them; parakāśa—manifestations; sapta-dvīpe—on seven islands; nava-khaṇḍe—in different sections, nine in number; yāṅhāra vilāsa—the pastimes of whom.
TRANSLATION
“Within the universe the Lord is situated in different spiritual manifestations. These are situated on seven islands in nine sections. Thus Their pastimes are going on.
PURPORT
The seven islands are mentioned in the Siddhānta-śiromaṇi:
bhūmer ardhaṁ kṣīra-sindhor udaka-sthaṁ
jambu-dvīpaṁ prāhur ācārya-varyāḥ
ardhe ‘nyasmin dvīpa-ṣaṭkasya yāmye
kṣāra-kṣīrādy-ambudhīnāṁ niveśaḥ
śākaṁ tataḥ śālmala-matra kauśaṁ
krauñcaṁ ca go-medaka-puṣkare ca
dvayor dvayor antaram ekam ekaṁ
samudrayor dvīpam udāharanti
The seven islands (dvīpas) are known as (1) Jambu, (2) Śāka, (3) Śālmalī, (4) Kuśa, (5) Krauñca, (6) Gomeda, or Plakṣa, and (7) Puṣkara. The planets are called dvīpa. Outer space is like an ocean of air. just as there are islands in the watery ocean, these planets in the ocean of space are called dvīpas, or islands in outer space. THERE ARE NINE KHAṆḌAS, KNOWN AS (1) BHĀRATA, (2) KINNARA, (3) HARI, (4) KURU, (5) HIRAṆMAYA, (6) RAMYAKA, (7) ILĀVṚTA, (8) BHADRĀŚVA AND (9) KETUMĀLA. THESE ARE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE JAMBŪDVĪPA. A VALLEY BETWEEN TWO MOUNTAINS IS CALLED A KHAṆḌA OR VARṢA.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/madhya/20/218
Mahesh Prabhu. It is one thing to accept Srila Prabhupada’s descriptions as written in Srimad Bhagavatam and another to ‘illustrate’ or ‘create a 3D model’ as requested by Srila Prabhupada and ‘comprehend’ the image being thus described. So as you object strongly to the images which have been presented by Mayeshvara (and others) it is only fair THAT YOU, YOURSELF CREATE THE NECESSARY ILLUSTRATIONS TO CHALLENGE THE ILLUSTRATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PRESENTED!
EITHER COME UP WITH THE GOODS YOURSELF (AS SUCH ILLUSTRATIVE IMAGES AND DIAGRAMS WILL PERMIT!) OR JUST ADMIT TO YOURSELF HONESTLY, AND EVERYBODY ELSE THAT YOU HAVE NO VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE DESCRIPTIONS WHICH HAVE BEEN PRESENTED BY SRILA PRABHUPADA IN SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM!
WE CAN ALL “CUT AND PASTE” (Thanks Balaram Prabhu ha ha!) QUOTES BY SRILA PRABHUPADA! BUT YOU, YES! YOU MY FRIEND!, HAVE TO PROVIDE ILLUSTRATIVE DIAGRAMS, BASED ON THESE WORDS BY SRILA PRABHUPADA.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DON”T GIVE US ANOTHER “WAR AND PEACE” (CUT AND PASTE!) LIST OF QUOTATIONS! PLEASE! ILLUSTRATIONS AND DIAGRAMS ONLY! OR JUST ADMIT THAT YOU CANNOT DO THIS! AND PUT AN END TO THIS NONSENSE! THE GOODS PLEASE! NO MORE WORDS! THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IS IT?
” Illustration definition: An illustration is an example or a story which is used to make a point clear .”
Sudarsana asks for an Illustration and Diagram only from Mahesh Raja instead of ” cut and paste ” from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
Sudarsana Prabhu wants 3 D model as presented by Mayesevera dasa.
Perhaps, Mayesvera dasa has the resources for such presentation to appeal to Massive ignorant people quoting partially simply to create smoke screen using from Srila Prabhupada VANI whatever it suits best his personal agenda.
In this way, how Mayesvera is satisfying Srila Prabhupada when he misleads people in his writing in the presentation as pointed out in my various writings ?
Here I am referring my comment particularly to the Instructions letter of Srila Prabhupada to Svarupa Damodara dasa dated April 27, 1976. posted on
9. August 2018 at 1:21 am on this web site.
Why Mayesvera dasa is not making any comments on my writing what I suggest him to follow because he has the resources to create 3 D images to present to the public as per Srila Prabhupada ?
I wonder WHY he is not doing it ?
As I guess that Mahesh Raja is, perhaps, not equipped with such resources to create 3 D Images, as I am also not having such resources at my end, therefore, it is safe and sound to ILLUSTRATE As It Is from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI ( cut and paste ) quoting in the writing simply to refute the FLAWS in Mayesvera dasa presentation or others.
What is wrong with it ?
I humbly invite all the learned Readers including Mayesvera dasa and his team, let us work cooperatively, and create the 3 D Images as suggested in my comments.
I hope Mayesvera dasa reads this my insignificant humble request of invitation in order to end this type of Flat Earth misleading presentation once and for all.
By the way, Sudarsana Prabhu, the 3 D Images of showing Lower Planetary system as part of the Bhu – Mandala is an other misleading in Mayesvera’s writing in his article under discussion. Why ? Because no where in the Shastras it describes as such.
Hope it meets you, Sudarsana Prabhu, satisfactory.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu. The fact that Mayeshvara Prabhu is of the opinion that Tamal Krishna Goswami is seen in his eyes, as an ‘authority’, is a clear indication of how naive and mislead one can be and this is not disputed by me. The images presented by him are 2D color vector graphic images (or Photoshop, Corel etc) not 3D (3D would be the planetarium model itself, presented in a 2D color image on the computer screen!). As Srila Prabhupada requested that 3D planetarium model be undertaken (which can be illustrated in 2D on the computer screen) it is only fair that Mahesh Raja Prabhu ”offer such 2D illustrations, as he has understood from Srila Prabhupada’s Vani” in order to clear up any alleged misconception” that these images may convey. Such images rendered do not have to be ‘color vectors or Photoshop but can be simple pencil or pen images.
Srila Prabhupada’s Vani as written in Srimad Bhagavatam can of course, not be in dispute, only our interpretation which has been rendered by various devotees into a 3D (planetarium model) or the various 2D images on the computer screen so it is only fair that these be either rejected, corrected, altered or fine tuned by use of similar images, using Srila Prabhupada’s instructions in Srimad Bhagavatam as the guiding principal as such images make for a more convincing statement to support Srila Prabhupada’s desire for this ‘Visual Presentation’
I hope you can understand my point.
Sudarsana Prabhu allow me to ask you a question, if I may ;
Do you personally believe that this Mayesvera dasa writing in his presentation reflects exactly what HDG. Srila Prabhupada writes in His VANI ?
If yes, then, Mayesvera’s Self Interested Interpretation in his presentations are correct the way it is presented. Is that it ?
If no, then, Mayesvera’s Self Interested Interpretation in his presentations are MISLEADING the way it is presented. Is it NOT ?
Regardless how Mayesvera dasa presents in his writing with Impressive Visual Images, does that make his presentation authentic as per the Instructions of the Acharyas as he claims in his writing ?
Can you please answer these questions OR any body from the group of Mayesvera dasa, perhaps, Prikisat dasa ?
The comments are always appreciated from the Learned people.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu. Thank you for your question.
As we are all conditioned souls, to varying degrees, it is, in my humble opinion, not possible for any of us to reflect ‘exactly’ what HDG Srila Prabhupada writes in his Vani, as he always resides on the Uttama Adhikari platform. This is where such a forum as this (Prabhupadanugas) is necessary as it is through the ‘Sadhu’ component (Guru, Sadhu, Sastra) that our resolve (and realization) can be strengthened.
I do not know if Mayeshvara Prabhu’s illustrative efforts are intended to ‘mislead’, but I am certain that any 2D (or 3D) REPRESENTATION OF THE INCONCEIVEABLE can only be rendered containing many limitations, due to such a complex undertaking. Such illustrations have a very powerful effect on the viewer and will only encourage further robust debate on this interesting topic. Such elements as the ‘sugercane, milk, and yoghurt’ oceans are still very much beyond our comprehension, although Mayeshvara Prabhu has endeavored to illustrate this. Speaking for myself, there are many things that are contained in the scriptures that are difficult to pin down and ‘define’ due to the achintya (inconceiveable) nature of both the material and spiritual worlds.
As the Vedic Planetarium project was directly ordered by Srila Prabhupada, I think that there is no doubt that the intelligence to complete such a 3D model of the universe would be forthcoming by the mercy of Lord Krishna in ”the devotees desire to please Srila Prabhupada and be receptive to such transcendental reciprocation.”
The strong artistic and sculptural elements combined with the planets represented by the presiding demigods are a very ‘POSITIVE AND PERSONAL’ feature of this work and is in direct contrast to the voidistic, dark, cold, empty impersonal models of the Masonic inspired NASA and Smithsonian Institute!
Sudarsana Prabhu, if some one ( Mayesvera dasa Prabhu) writes with the Self Interested Interpretation from the authorized scripture which leads to misrepresentation and misdirection away from the actual meaning of the Scripture in order to satisfy merely the Writer’s Agenda, then, naturally the Illustrations and Diagrams 3 D Images and so on also reflect the writer’s Intend and Purpose of the personal agenda which becomes subject to four defects out of which the CHEATING is one of them.
So, why CHEAT ?
Why not present As It Is from the Scripture as per our Jagat Guru HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions as well as what the previous Acharyas do say in this
regard ?
That is my point particularly asking these specific questions.
I sincerely do hope that some body is able to address these issues exactly in order to reflect the disagreement to resolve on the misleading and cheating in the writings under discussion.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
As explained by the Webmaster the articles and illustrations are from different devotees and others reprinted from other sources (such as Sampradaya Sun etc), including devotees from Prabhupadanugas and not all from Mayeshvara Das. As I do not know Mayeshvara Das, coupled with the fact that he is not a commentator on this site, this presents a bit of a problem as to the validity of his position not being included in the topics being discussed or available to clarify his case.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
“There is no need by any of my disciples to read any books besides my books – in fact, such reading may be detrimental to their advancement in Krishna Consciousness. All reading of outside books, except in certain authorized cases such as for example to read some philosopher like Plato to make an essay comparing his philosophy with Krishna’s philosophy – but otherwise all such outside reading should be stopped immediately. It is simply another botheration. If my students cannot even read my own books thoroughly, why they should read others? I have given you TLC, what need is there to read Caitanya Caritamrta translated by someone else. You are right to stop such reading.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Sri Govinda, January 20th, 1972)
Dear Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu
Nice to hear from you -request- please kindly accept the quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s words instead in “copy and paste”. My computer skills are THE MOST basic. And—– I do mean MOST BASIC. So it is asking too much for me to learn new skills and then present Computer Diagrams(how many years learning this going to take????). I have still got problems with my very old computer – my Hard Disk has got malware and many of my files are stored there. I have no help over here in these matters – either. I have just installed another hard disk for the present. If I take it to people they want charge me too much. So this is my situation on computers. I have no brains for computers.
Now, let us come back to the philosophical points:
Bg 17.15 P The Divisions of Faith
One should not speak in such a way as to agitate the minds of others. Of course, when a teacher speaks, he can speak the truth for the instruction of his students, but such a teacher should not speak to others who are not his students if he will agitate their minds. This is penance as far as talking is concerned. Besides that, one should not talk nonsense. WHEN SPEAKING IN SPIRITUAL CIRCLES, ONE’S STATEMENTS MUST BE UPHELD BY THE SCRIPTURES. ONE SHOULD AT ONCE QUOTE FROM SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY TO BACK UP WHAT HE IS SAYING. At the same time, such talk should be very pleasurable to the ear. By such discussions, one may derive the highest benefit and elevate human society. There is a limitless stock of Vedic literature, and one should study this. This is called penance of speech.
Adi 7.132 Lord Caitanya in Five Features
WE QUOTE VEDIC EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT OUR STATEMENTS, BUT IF WE INTERPRET IT ACCORDING TO OUR OWN JUDGMENT, THE AUTHORITY OF THE VEDIC LITERATURE IS RENDERED IMPERFECT OR USELESS. IN OTHER WORDS, BY INTERPRETING THE VEDIC VERSION ONE MINIMIZES THE VALUE OF VEDIC EVIDENCE. When one quotes from Vedic literature, it is understood that the quotations are authoritative. How can one bring the authority under his own control? That is a case of principiis obsta.
Note: So basically Prabhu , even BEFORE you BEGIN on Computer Diagrams project here is what we have:
We KNOW for A FACT that BY INTERPRETING THE VEDIC VERSION ONE MINIMIZES THE VALUE OF VEDIC EVIDENCE.
This brings to question WHERE is this “HUGE CIRCULAR LANDSCAPE SPANNING THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE” in Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam???? WHERE????
Mayesvara das: Is the Earth a small globe-shaped planet in space, or is our Earth area (as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam) part of a much greater Earth that forms a huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe?
73-12-25.Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR ANY OUTSIDE INSTRUCTION.
731208SB.LA Lectures
So if you want to understand Bhagavad-gita, then we must understand in the same way as the person who directly heard from. This is called parampara system. Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. OR EVEN IF YOU READ SOME BOOKS, YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME. THIS IS CALLED PARAMPARA SYSTEM. YOU CANNOT JUMP OVER TO THE SUPERIOR GURU, NEGLECTING THE NEXT ACARYA, IMMEDIATE NEXT ACARYA. Just like our, this Gau…, Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s cult; we cannot understand Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly. It is not possible. We have to understand through the Gosvamis. Therefore you’ll find in the Caitanya-caritamrta and at the end of every chapter, the writer says,
sri-rupa-ragunatha-pade yara asa
caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsna-dasa
This is the process. He does not say that “I’ve understood Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly.” No. That is not understanding. That is foolishness. You cannot understand what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore repeatedly he says, rupa-ragunatha-pade… “I am that Krsna dasa, Kaviraja, who is always under the subordination of the Gosvamis.” This is parampara system. Similarly, Narottama dasa Thakura also says, ei chay gosai jar mui tar das, “I am servant of that person who has accepted this six Gosvamis as his master. I am not going to be servant of any other person who does not accept the way and means of…” Therefore we say or we offer our prayer to our spiritual master, rupanuga-varaya te, rupanuga-varaya te, because he follows Rupa Gosvami, therefore we accept, spiritual master. Not that one has become more than Rupa Gosvami or more than… No. Tandera carana-sebi-bhakta-sane vas. This is the parampara system.
Dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu.
I can well appreciate your thoughts on this subject and the difficulty in rendering such descriptions described in Srimad Bhagavatam in the form of 2D and (3D model) to aid in our ability to better understand this topic. These drawings that have been made are some sort of starting point however, so even if one disagrees it makes more sense to ‘counter’ such apparent or perceived flaws by this process of ‘illustration’ to arrive at some better understanding. I myself am no expert on astronomy so am happy for others to make some contribution, based of course on Srila Prabhupada’s descriptions. To create the planetarium model is ALWAYS going to be extremely difficult as you have to condense 13 plus (and counting) ‘dimensions’ into a 3 dimensional model so ‘perfection and consensus’ is impossible.
The important thing in my humble opinion is to ‘counter’ the materialists conception of the material creation, in particular the lies of NASA, the material scientists and the ”slaughterhouse education” system to which Freemasonry has an ever-present and demonic influence.
One aspect that I am impressed with regarding the Vedic Planetarium Model is how they have stressed the personal aspect of the universe by representing the planets with the ‘PRESIDING DEMIGODS’ instead of the Masonic NASA concept of impersonalism………………… I THINK THIS ASPECT IN ITSELF IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT BY FAR AND FAR OUTWEIGHS THE PHYSICAL CONSIDERATIONS OF MEASUREMENT DISTANCE AND SHAPE, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!
“…The point made here by Sukadeva Goswami is that since one billion miles is a quarter of the Bhu-gola, then it’s complete diameter is 4 billion miles…”
Interesting that the calculated distance from the Sun to Neptune/Pluto, in other words the ‘Solar System’, is approx 4 Billion miles! Just a thought!
Thanks for your comments Marica das prabhu. Yes we have to be careful re ‘prayasa’ (over endeavoring). Maya devi will use all at her disposal to divert us from continually watering the devotional creeper, speculation (gambling) and subtle sense gratification. As Bhakta George sang ‘beware of Maya’!
Yfs,
Balaram das.
Dear Learned Readers,
No doubt, the presented Map of Bhu Mandala by the devotees for Srila Prabhupada’s approval was indeed not upto the standard knowledge written in the Srimad Bhagvatma by Srila Prabhupada.
That is why during the discussion about the FLAT or ROUND conversation in the link provided below seems to be puzzling the devotees because they couldn’t ascertain the information Srila Prabhupada has written in the Srimad Bhagvatam.
As Mayesvera dasa wrote ; ” It appears there was some difficulty in the depiction of the Bhū-maṇḍala. Śrīla Prabhupāda had sent some of his disciples to search around India for Vedic astronomers who could help with drawing the maps for the Vedic planetarium. ”
Being humble and meek, Śrīla Prabhupāda himself acknowledged his own limitations. Speaking of his difficultly in conceiving the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam’s description of the universe:
Prabhupāda: And it was not possible for me to digest. (laughs) Somebody else helped me to… I am a layman. I do not know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you write it?
Prabhupāda: That somebody, Kṛṣṇa, helped me. That He manufactured.
Yaśodānandana: And these mountains, they extend to the beaches. “It is considered, according to the Bhāga…”
Prabhupāda: When I was writing, I was praying Kṛṣṇa that “I do not actually accommodate all this knowledge. Please help me.” Yes. That’s all right.
(Room Conversation, June 18 1977, Vṛndāvana)
https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/jun/vrndavana/june/18/1977
Thus, Lord Shri Krishna indeed helped His Representative to write down the information in the Srimad Bhagvatam in the Fifth Canto and other literature. That was, indeed, the reason of Srila Prabhupada being humble and meek.
Whatever it is written in the SB. the devotees, disciples could not grasp the information as explained during the recorded conversation of Srila Prabhupada as per the above link in the conversation, and thus the devotees failed to put it into the proper Map to the satisfaction of Srila Prabhupada as per the SB.
That is the reason Śrīla Prabhupāda again mentioned to one astronomer:
Prabhupāda: I have tried to translate it as far as possible, but I am not satisfied.
(Conversation with India Astronomer, April 30 1977, Bombay)
https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/apr/conversation_with_vedic_astronomer/bombay/april/30/1977
Prabhupāda: Take the version of Bhāgavatam.
(Discussions about Bhū-maṇḍala, July 5 1977, Vṛndāvana )
https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/jul/discussion_about_bhu-mandala/vrndavana/july/05/1977
Based on the above mentioned circumstances, HOW an intelligent, WISE person, can come to this conclusion as you ( Mayesvera dasa ) write as follows ;
” Śrīla Prabhupāda himself acknowledged his own limitations. Speaking of his difficultly in conceiving the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam’s description of the universe.”
ALSO, particularly, when Mayesvara dasa writes such as this ; ” Despite Srila Prabhupada’s unfamiliarity with all the details of Bhu-mandala, ….”
How can any body with the right mind can write like this ?
Has Srila Prabhupada NOT written all the details of Bhu-mandala in His writing ?
Who is at the difficulty Speaking in conceiving the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of the Universe ?
Is it NOT Srila Prabhupada’s Neophyte DEVOTEES having such difficulty in conceiving the description of the Bhu Mandala ?
NOT ONLY the above mentioned writing of Mayesvera dasa creates smoke screen to support his agenda BUT many other writings ALSO such as the following ;
” Carefully study the details of the Fifth Canto and make a working model of the universe,” (Letter from Srila Prabhupada to Svarupa Damodara dasa, April 27, 1976).
The problem with the writer Mayesvera Das being a Self Interested Interpreter, he chooses and selects partially Srila Prabhupada’s quotes to support his very own interpretations in his writing to create a smoke screen as he wishes to best suit his agenda in his presentation to the Readers instead of following the complete quote as it is in the text of Srila Prabhupada as per the example mentioned above using partial writing from the letter of Srila Prabhupada to Svarupa Damodara dasa dated April 27, 1976 which re-produce here below followed by my comments ;
Auckland
27 April, 1976
76-04-27
Atlanta
My dear Svarupa Damodara Das,
Please accept my blessings. Now our Ph.D’s must collaborate and study the 5th Canto to make a model for building the Vedic Planetarium. My final decision is that the universe is just like a tree, with root upwards. Just as a tree has branches and leaves so the universe is also composed of planets which are fixed up in the tree like the leaves, flowers, fruits, etc. of the tree. THE PIVOT IS THE POLE STAR, AND THE WHOLE TREE IS ROTATING ON THIS PIVOT. Mount Sumeru is the center, trunk, and is like a steep hill, like the alps mountains which also have very high peaks. I have seen in Switzerland one mountain peak which was so high that is penetrated through the clouds. THE TREE IS TURNING AND THEREFORE, ALL THE BRANCHES AND LEAVES TURN WITH THE TREE. THE PLANETS HAVE THEIR FIXED ORBITS, BUT STILL THEY ARE TURNING WITH THE TURNING OF THE GREAT TREE. There are pathways leading from one planet to another made of gold, copper, etc., and these are like the branches. Distances are also described in the 5th Canto just how far one planet is from another.
WE CAN SEE THAT AT NIGHT, HOW THE WHOLE PLANETARY SYSTEM IS TURNING AROUND, THE POLE STAR BEING THE PIVOT. EACH PLANET HAS ITS ORBIT FIXED BUT THE SUN IS MOVING UP AND DOWN, NORTH AND SOUTH. IT IS NOT THAT WE SHALL ACCEPT THE THEORY THAT THE SUN IS FIXED UP AND THE OTHERS ARE ALL GOING AROUND THE SUN. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. EVEN THE 7TH STAR IS ROTATING ONCE AROUND THE POLE STAR IN EACH 24 HOURS. The whole universe is just like a big tree, that is a fact. I do not think that the modern astronomers have any such idea that the whole universe is like a big tree. The planets which are full of living entities are one after another, one above the other. The relative positions of the planets is fixed up but the whole thing is turning. The sun is going north and south, it has its own orbit below the moon. So now you all Ph.D.’s must carefully study the details of the 5th Canto and make a working model of the universe. If we can explain the passing seasons, eclipses, phases of the moon, passing of day and night, etc. then it will be very powerful propaganda.
I am sending this letter to you, and you can make photocopies of it and send to our other Ph.D.’s and begin serious research into the matter in detail. But one thing, I am convinced that the universe is just like a great tree as described therein.
I hope that this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/pks
NOTE ; THE EMPHASIS IS ADDED IN BLOCK LETTER.
we learn from the above said letter that this Universe ( Brahmanda ) resembles as THE WHOLE TREE which IS ROTATING ON THE PIVOT of the Pole Star aka as the Spiritual Planet ruled by the Maharaja Dhruva as per SB. description.
THE TREE IS TURNING AND THEREFORE, ALL THE BRANCHES AND LEAVES TURN WITH THE TREE. The Branches signify as the the different Division ( Spheres aka LOKA in the Universe ) and the Leaves represent as the Planets in this Brahmanda or Jagadanda.
Therefore, THE PLANETS HAVE THEIR FIXED ORBITS, BUT STILL THEY ARE TURNING WITH THE TURNING OF THE GREAT TREE which is shape like an ANDA means Egg shape, aka Brahmanda or Jagadanda.
No doubt, as the Branches (different Lokas in the Spheres of the Universe ) and its Leaves ( Planets ) are situated with the main Trunk of the Tree , therefore, in the same manners, we can understand that the Mount Sumeru being in the Centre of the Universe serves the purpose as the Trunk in this Universe.
Is my inference correct, Dear Readers ?
Further, we read from Srila Prabhupada letter that ” There are pathways leading from one planet to another made of gold, copper, etc., and these are like the branches.”
It means that each and every Planets are connected. But we have no ACCESS to such Path way which connects to the other Planets because we are not qualified as it appears.
Distances are also described in the 5th Canto just how far one planet is from another.
WE CAN SEE THAT AT NIGHT, HOW THE WHOLE PLANETARY SYSTEM IS TURNING AROUND, THE POLE STAR BEING THE PIVOT. EACH PLANET HAS ITS ORBIT FIXED BUT THE SUN IS MOVING UP AND DOWN, NORTH AND SOUTH. IT IS NOT THAT WE SHALL ACCEPT THE THEORY THAT THE SUN IS FIXED UP AND THE OTHERS ARE ALL GOING AROUND THE SUN. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. EVEN THE 7TH STAR IS ROTATING ONCE AROUND THE POLE STAR IN EACH 24 HOURS. The whole universe is just like a big tree, that is a fact. I do not think that the modern astronomers have any such idea that the whole universe is like a big tree. The planets which are full of living entities are one after another, one above the other. The relative positions of the planets is fixed up but the whole thing is turning. The sun is going north and south, it has its own orbit below the moon.
So now you all Ph.D.’s must carefully study the details of the 5th Canto and make a working model of the universe. If we can explain the passing seasons, eclipses, phases of the moon, passing of day and night, etc. then it will be very powerful propaganda.
UNFORTUNATELY, these presenters – followers or devotees of Srila Prabhupada, whatever is out there in this regard we read from their Self Interested Interpretations in the writing are all subject to the four defects and thus, as a matter of fact, they can not work together to solve their differences on account of their personal motivated agenda with their misrepresentation which mislead creating confusions and contradictions by adding and deleting in the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada VANI.
It would be better that the sincere disciples try to model the Vedic planetarium as ordered by Srila Prabhupada, which would show how the whole universe is revolving around pole star and all natural phenomena are scientifically explained, which was never thought before by both Earth-centered and Sun-centered astronomers. But, this Flat Earth propaganda is only deviating from Srila Prabhupada’s direction, focusing on concocted ideas, which lead to further Ignorance.
Is this the main Goal of Flat Earth Propagandists?
Why Mayesvera das and his group are not following the complete Instructions given in the Srila Prabhupada letter cited above from which he only takes a partial quote to support his writings ?
Why are they trying to divert from Srila Prabhupada instructions ?
Why are they NOT fulfilling Srila Prabhupada’s desire to build the true Vedic planetarium, which would bring all imposture scientists down to their kneels?
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Amar Puri:
Based on the above mentioned circumstances, HOW an intelligent, WISE person, can come to this conclusion as you ( Mayesvera dasa ) write as follows ;
” Śrīla Prabhupāda himself acknowledged his own limitations. Speaking of his difficultly in conceiving the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam’s description of the universe.”
ALSO, particularly, when Mayesvara dasa writes such as this ; ” Despite Srila Prabhupada’s unfamiliarity with all the details of Bhu-mandala, ….”
How can any body with the right mind can write like this ?
Has Srila Prabhupada NOT written all the details of Bhu-mandala in His writing ?
Mahesh: Mayesvara das has his own agenda to MANIPULATE and INSERT his OWN concoction hence he puts Srila Prabhupada’s being humble AS BEING BEING UNABLE to do Srimad Bhagavatam properly AND LACKING. However, here is an example of “omniscient” he does NOT quote:
760608mw.la Conversations
Bharadvaja: I understand, Srila Prabhupada, that the pure devotee can be as pervasive as Supersoul?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Bharadvaja: By the mercy of Supersoul, he can be present in many places at once?
Prabhupada: Yes. By the grace of Krsna, a devotee can become anything.
Duryodhana-guru: So in other words that means the pure devotees can be omniscient?
Prabhupada: Everything. God is omniscient, so a pure devotee can become omniscient by the grace of God.
Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada explains that Varuna is omniscient.
Duryodhana-guru: Varuna?
Radhavallabha: It’s in Fourth Canto.
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Mayesvara das:The Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium (TOVP) is meant to change all of that by presenting the Earth as it is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam—a vast circular plane with other lands and people surrounding our own.
Mahesh: WHERE is it in Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavatam that VAST CIRCULAR PLANE??????
He has MANIPULATED Tamal Krishna “Gosvami’s” writings as being part of Srila Prabhupada’s books just so that he can USE that as an excuse to INSERTING his OWN concoction in place.
73-12-25.Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR ANY OUTSIDE INSTRUCTION.
731208SB.LA Lectures
So if you want to understand Bhagavad-gita, then we must understand in the same way as the person who directly heard from. This is called parampara system. Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. OR EVEN IF YOU READ SOME BOOKS, YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME. THIS IS CALLED PARAMPARA SYSTEM. YOU CANNOT JUMP OVER TO THE SUPERIOR GURU, NEGLECTING THE NEXT ACARYA, IMMEDIATE NEXT ACARYA. Just like our, this Gau…, Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s cult; we cannot understand Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly. It is not possible. We have to understand through the Gosvamis. Therefore you’ll find in the Caitanya-caritamrta and at the end of every chapter, the writer says,
sri-rupa-ragunatha-pade yara asa
caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsna-dasa
This is the process. He does not say that “I’ve understood Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly.” No. That is not understanding. That is foolishness. You cannot understand what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore repeatedly he says, rupa-ragunatha-pade… “I am that Krsna dasa, Kaviraja, who is always under the subordination of the Gosvamis.” This is parampara system. Similarly, Narottama dasa Thakura also says, ei chay gosai jar mui tar das, “I am servant of that person who has accepted this six Gosvamis as his master. I am not going to be servant of any other person who does not accept the way and means of…” Therefore we say or we offer our prayer to our spiritual master, rupanuga-varaya te, rupanuga-varaya te, because he follows Rupa Gosvami, therefore we accept, spiritual master. Not that one has become more than Rupa Gosvami or more than… No. Tandera carana-sebi-bhakta-sane vas. This is the parampara system.
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Mahesh Raja says:
7. August 2018 at 3:07 pm
Note: Since when was Tamal Krsna Goswami an AUTHORITY????
Please note the BIG difference in DVIPAS (Islands) that Srila Prabhupada considers as PLANETS and Tamal Krishna’s thinking:
MAYESVARA DASA: However, the translation to the description of the Bhu-mandala (Earth circle) is also part of Srila Prabhupada’s books! Srila Prabhupada’s many instructions to exactly present the fifth canto cosmology are also part of Prabhupada’s books! SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCUSSIONS ON THE ISSUE WITH TAMALA KRISHNA GOSWAMI ARE ALSO PART OF PRABHUPADA’S BOOKS!
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-18/editorials15675.htm
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MAYESVARA DASA: The excitement and revolutionary spirit is also clearly discernible:
Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, are the planets shaped liked balls or more like plates? Because it’s, it’s hard to understand, ’cause they’re called dvipas, “islands.” Their roundness is the roundness of a plate or like a ball?
Prabhupada: Which one?
Satsvarupa: The earth planet?
Prabhupada: IF IT IS LIKE A TREE, THEN THESE THINGS CAN BE AS DVIPA, ISLAND.
Tamala Krishna: Wow. You know…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krishna: The scientists are getting smashed to bits by your statements, Srila Prabhupada. This destroys their whole theory. Orbs, round spheres. I think that this Mayapura building, we must build a big planetarium in it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That, that I am going to do, Vedic planetarium.
Tamala Krishna: Oh, boy. You’re going to bring a lot of…. A lot of scientists will come here just to dispute this.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pushta Krishna: Wonderful attraction.
Prabhupada: World people will come to see the way the planetary systems…
Tamala Krishna: We should advertise it very widely that this is the actual, factual explanation of the universe.
Prabhupada: This will be automatically advertised. As soon as the temple is finished, people will come like anything.
Hari-sauri: They’re going to need somebody to…
Prabhupada: The thing is, on principle, we shall only go against them.
Hamsaduta: Contrary.
Prabhupada: On principle. Whatever they say “Yes,” we say “No.” (laughter)
(Morning Walk, March 18 1976, Mayapur)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-18/editorials15707.htm
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TEXT 19
māṁ vacobhiḥ samārādhya
lokānām ekam īśvaram
pada-trayaṁ vṛṇīte yo
’buddhimān dvīpa-dāśuṣam
SYNONYMS
mām—me; vacobhiḥ—by sweet words; samārādhya—after sufficiently pleasing; lokānām—of all the planets in this universe; ekam—the one and only; īśvaram—master, controller; pada-trayam—three feet; vṛṇīte—is asking for; yaḥ—He who; abuddhimān—not very intelligent; dvīpa-dāśuṣam—because I can give You an entire island.
TRANSLATION
I am able to give You an entire island because I am the proprietor of the three divisions of the universe. You have come to take something from me and have pleased me by Your sweet words, but You are asking only three paces of land. Therefore You are not very intelligent.
PURPORT
ACCORDING TO VEDIC UNDERSTANDING, THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS REGARDED AS AN OCEAN OF SPACE. IN THAT OCEAN THERE ARE INNUMERABLE PLANETS, AND EACH PLANET IS CALLED A DVĪPA, OR ISLAND. When approached by Lord Vāmanadeva, Bali Mahārāja was actually in possession of all the dvīpas, or islands in space. Bali Mahārāja was very pleased to see the features of Vāmanadeva and was ready to give Him as much land as He could ask, but because Lord Vāmanadeva asked only three paces of land, Bali Mahārāja considered Him not very intelligent.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/8/19/19
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TEXT 218
ei-mata brahmāṇḍa-madhye sabāra ‘parakāśa’
sapta-dvīpe nava-khaṇḍe yāṅhāra vilāsa
SYNONYMS
ei-mata—in this way; brahmāṇḍa-madhye—within this universe; sabāra—of all of Them; parakāśa—manifestations; sapta-dvīpe—on seven islands; nava-khaṇḍe—in different sections, nine in number; yāṅhāra vilāsa—the pastimes of whom.
TRANSLATION
“Within the universe the Lord is situated in different spiritual manifestations. These are situated on SEVEN ISLANDS in nine sections. Thus Their pastimes are going on.
PURPORT
The seven islands are mentioned in the Siddhānta-śiromaṇi:
bhūmer ardhaṁ kṣīra-sindhor udaka-sthaṁ
jambu-dvīpaṁ prāhur ācārya-varyāḥ
ardhe ‘nyasmin dvīpa-ṣaṭkasya yāmye
kṣāra-kṣīrādy-ambudhīnāṁ niveśaḥ
śākaṁ tataḥ śālmala-matra kauśaṁ
krauñcaṁ ca go-medaka-puṣkare ca
dvayor dvayor antaram ekam ekaṁ
samudrayor dvīpam udāharanti
The SEVEN ISLANDS (DVĪPAS) are known as (1) Jambu, (2) Śāka, (3) Śālmalī, (4) Kuśa, (5) Krauñca, (6) Gomeda, or Plakṣa, and (7) Puṣkara. THE PLANETS ARE CALLED DVĪPA. OUTER SPACE IS LIKE AN OCEAN OF AIR. JUST AS THERE ARE ISLANDS IN THE WATERY OCEAN, THESE PLANETS IN THE OCEAN OF SPACE ARE CALLED DVĪPAS, OR ISLANDS IN OUTER SPACE. There are nine khaṇḍas, known as (1) Bhārata, (2) Kinnara, (3) Hari, (4) Kuru, (5) Hiraṇmaya, (6) Ramyaka, (7) Ilāvṛta, (8) Bhadrāśva and (9) Ketumāla. These are different parts of the Jambūdvīpa. A valley between two mountains is called a khaṇḍa or varṣa.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/madhya/20/218
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Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
Tamal Krsna and company went on to imitate Uttama Adhikari PRETENDING to give Diksa. Tamal Krishna “Goswami threatens in his “Servant of the Servant”, 1984 Printing, Part Two, Chapter 11 – Le Sankirtana Parisien:
P361 — “Though they leveled their remarks against the successor gurus, in reality their criticism was aimed at Srila Prabhupada himself.”
P363 — Referring to Srila Prabhupada: “Thus he considered them to be Uttama-adhikari, highly advanced devotees worthy to be accepted as spiritual masters.”[..]
“Critics may doubt whether our ISKCON acaryas are actually liberated. Do they know their rasa (liberated relationship) with Krsna, and will they be able to instruct their disciples similarly? But such questions bring one dangerously near precipice of spiritual calamity.”
P365 “Ultimately, however the greatest proof of bonafidity of Srila Prabhupada’s successor acaryas is their disciples.”
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
Note: Tamal Krishna “Gosvami” was one of the MAIN suspects INVOLVED in Srila Prabhupada’s been given poison his voice is also VERY clearly heard:
Srila Prabhupada poisoned:
The following sites has whispers of the poison givers:
To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click
http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh
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Srila Prabhupada Given Poison:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42549#comment-29598
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43821
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42564#more-42564
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=46843#more-46843
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/poison/poison-whispers.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIBqNBMbPvY&t=316s
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47921
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47931
How to understand the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada’s body and his disappearance?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47943
Hare Krsna,
Thank you Balaram Prabhu,
Yes : ‘beware of Maya’
Mayesvara Prabhu’s writings about “Flat Earth Conception” actually “suggest” the followings in the back:: Tamal Krsna Goswami is an authority, so there is no guru hoax , there is no poison issue, diminution meaning of pure devotee …
This is the main problem. One can see the things properly by the BONA FIDE PARAMPARA.
Hare Krsna
From another angle of vision There are other dynamics at play here. What is capturing the most attention is “the inconceivable” while the “conceivable” is evading the radar altogether!
On the TOVP site (top of the page) there is a heading Vedic Science, and a “Quote” from Srila Prabhupada, which I dispute as to whether he said this at all! As follows……..(note: NO QUOTATION MARKS except for the project names!)……..
Srila Prabhupada writes: Now here in India we are planning construction of a very large “Vedic Planetarium” or “Temple of Understanding”. Within the planetarium we will construct a huge, detailed model of the universe as described in the text of the fifth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Within the planetarium, the model will be studied by onlookers from different levels by use of escalators.
DID SRILA PRABHUPADA SAY “TEMPLE OF UNDERSTANDING”? I doubt this very much as revealed in the discussion: Morning Walk, Feb 27th 1976 Mayapur.
(Note: I don’t know who this “devotee 4” is but this is how it has been written down).
Devotee (4): “Temple and planetarium”.
Prabhupada: “Yes”
Devotee (4): “Worlds largest planetarium and Temple of Understanding”.
Prabhupada : “No understanding!”, simply “Temple of Vedic Planetarium”, That’s all. We shall show vedic conception of planetary system within the material world and above the material world. [break] We are going to exhibit the vedic culture throughout the whole world, and they’ll come here”.
So it is clear that Srila Prabhupada did not want this name “Temple of Understanding” So why are they still using this term both in Mayapur, New Vrindavan, and Durban, South Africa? This “Temple of Understanding” is a Satanic construct of The Rockerfellers (David) and was built in New York as ”St John of the Divine” by Juliet Hollister from a concept she created in the 60s, and financed by Satanist David Rockerfeller. I beleive ther is another Temple of Understanding at the UN and one was proposed for Washington DC also. The members are a ”who’s who?” of Satanism and Freemasonry, such as…..
Chelsea Clinton (Church of Satan), Desmond Tutu (Pseudo-Catholic Archbishop, Freemason,Knights of Malta), Fr Thomas Berry (Follower of Freemason, Tielhard Rogue {founder of “new Age” movement}), Dalai Lama (CIA Agent [since 1957] and Rothschilds NWO stooge, May Rihani (World Bank, “womens rights”, Illuminati Globalist), Dr Soheil Bushrui (Baha’i [a Zionist concoction]), Eccuminical Patriarch Bartholemew (Freemason), Peter Max [Finkelstein] (Agenda 21), Russell Simmons,Media Mogul, Music Ind’, [Hip-Hop] recently charged with rape!, Freemason, Satanist! ) Illuminati Freemasons Al Gore and Henry Kissinger also associated with this Satanic “Temple of Understanding”.
Jean Huston “New Age Guru” writes in her book: ‘TROJAN HORSE’ “The Temple of Understanding’s” meditation room, was to be known as the “Hall of Illumination”, where the “Illuminati Masters of Wisdom”, our leaders of “The temple of Understanding” will train the public in a the new humanistic cult……to create a ”new type of mystic”
This is of course the plan of the UN globalists, to bring all these bogus “representatives” together as a kind of CENTRALIZED CONTROL, with the plea of “understanding and cooperation?”. This is the ”program” of bogus flunkys like Annutama Das and Rottenath, with all this Interfaith rubbish!…….So while the Satanists are sacrificing screaming babies, with sharpened daggers and sodomizing each other we can can just sit back in a lotus position of ” warm and fuzzy, brotherly ”understanding” and eat our GMO, ”vegan cookies” courtesy of Bill Gates! This nonsense has to be exposed! Please do your own research with regards to this bogus, Satanic, NWO “Temple of Understanding” so that this will be in the Spotlight!
Srila Prabhupada: No “Understanding” simply, “Temple of Vedic Planetarium” that’s all!
Mayesvara das: We have shown in these first two papers that the Earth according to Srimad-Bhagavatam has a diameter of 4 billion miles and a depth of hundreds of thousands of miles. Will the TOVP present this description of the Earth as a description of reality? If so, then the conception of the Earth globe can’t stand with it. The two models are completely opposed descriptions of reality.
Mahesh: the Globe that Mayesvara das shows is in terms of the accepted this small version what is accepted version of equatorial circumference of Earth is about 24,900 miles (40,070 km). He is NOT presenting the GLOBE according to VEDIC version hence his concoction of “huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe”.
Mayesvara das: “Earth area (as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam) part of a much greater Earth that forms a huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe”
Mahesh: WHERE is this described in SRILA PRABHUPADA’S Srimad Bhagavatam of “huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe”???? WHERE?????
What Mayesvara das is doing is REFUTING Srila Prabhupada’s MANY HUNDREDS of statements on GLOBE in favour of his CONCOCTION: “huge circular landscape spanning the center of the universe”
He KNOWS that sooner or later it will be found out SO he is making PROPAGANDA COVER-UP to show that Srila Prabhupada had INFACT made statements that the earth IS A GLOBE:
Mahesh Raja says:
7. August 2018 at 2:12 pm
Note: Not only three times BUT: There are MANY HUNDREDS of such statements were Srila Prabhupada refers to the Earth as ‘a planet,’ or as ‘a globe,’ or as ‘round.’
MAYESVARA DASA : It is A FACT that in MOST instances when Srila Prabhupada translates Sanskrit names for the Earth, it is in a manner that suggests we are living on an Earth globe or an Earth planet. For example, he refers to King Prithu’s travels around ‘the globe,’ (bhuvo mandalam (SB 4.16.20), or Svayambhuva Manu ‘leading a huge army whose trampling feet cause the globe of the earth (mandalam bhuvah) to tremble.’ (SB 3.21.52-54) Srila Prabhupada constantly used terms such as ‘Earth planet’ or ‘planet Earth’, ‘Earthly planets’, ‘Earthly planetary systems’, and ‘Earth globe’. There are MANY HUNDREDS of such statements were Srila Prabhupada refers to the Earth as ‘a planet,’ or as ‘a globe,’ or as ‘round.’ For example:
“Just like this universe is a jagad-anda, is a big round ball, anda. Anda means egglike, just like egg is round. Therefore it is called brahmanda. It is a round ball. Every planet is round, and the universe is also round, and the Vaikunthas are also round, all round.” (Madya-lila 20: 146-151, New York, December 3, 1966)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-18/editorials15675.htm
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TEXT 20
nemaṁ viriñco na bhavo
na śrīr apy aṅga-saṁśrayā
prasādaṁ lebhire gopī
yat tat prāpa vimuktidāt
SYNONYMS
na—not; imam—this exalted position; viriñcaḥ—Lord Brahmā; na—nor; bhavaḥ—Lord Śiva; na—nor; śrīḥ—the goddess of fortune; api—indeed; aṅga-saṁśrayā—although she is always the better half of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; prasādam—mercy; lebhire—obtained; gopī—mother Yaśodā; yat tat—as that which; prāpa—obtained; vimukti-dāt—from Kṛṣṇa, who gives deliverance from this material world.
TRANSLATION
Neither Lord Brahmā, nor Lord Śiva, nor even the goddess of fortune, who is always the better half of the Supreme Lord, can obtain from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the deliverer from this material world, such mercy as received by mother Yaśodā.
PURPORT
This is a comparative study between mother Yaśodā and other devotees of the Lord. As stated in Caitanya caritāmṛta (Ādi 5.142), ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya: the only supreme master is Kṛṣṇa, and all others are His servants. Kṛṣṇa has the transcendental quality of bhṛtya-vaśyatā, becoming subordinate to His bhṛtya, or servant. Now, although everyone is bhṛtya and although Kṛṣṇa has the quality of becoming subordinate to His bhṛtya, the position of mother Yaśodā is the greatest. Lord Brahmā is bhṛtya, a servant of Kṛṣṇa, and he is ādi-kavi, the original creator of this universe (tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye). Nonetheless, even he could not obtain such mercy as mother Yaśodā. As for Lord Śiva, he is the topmost Vaiṣṇava (vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ). What to speak of Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva, the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, is the Lord’s constant companion in service, since she always associates with His body. But even she could not get such mercy. Therefore Mahārāja Parīkṣit was surprised, thinking, “What did mother Yaśodā and Nanda Mahārāja do in their previous lives by which they got such a great opportunity, the opportunity to be the affectionate father and mother of Kṛṣṇa?”
IN THIS VERSE THERE ARE THREE NEGATIVE PRONOUNCEMENTS—NA, NA, NA. WHEN ANYTHING IS UTTERED THREE TIMES—“DO IT, DO IT, DO IT”—ONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS MEANT TO INDICATE GREAT STRESS ON A FACT. In this verse, we find na lebhire, na lebhire, na lebhire. Yet mother Yaśodā is in the supermost exalted position, and thus Kṛṣṇa has become completely subordinate to her.
The word vimuktidāt is also significant. There are different types of liberation, such as sāyujya, sālokya, sārūpya, sārṣṭi and sāmīpya, but vimukti means “special mukti.” When after liberation one is situated on the platform of prema-bhakti, one is said to have achieved vimukti, “special mukti.” Therefore the word na is mentioned. That exalted platform of premā is described by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as premā pum-artho mahān, and mother Yaśodā naturally acts in such an exalted position in loving affairs. She is therefore a nitya-siddha devotee, an expansion of Kṛṣṇa’s hlādinī potency, His potency to enjoy transcendental bliss through expansions who are special devotees (ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ). Such devotees are not sādhana-siddha.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/10/9/20
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TEXT 23
dārḍhya lāgi’ ‘harer nāma’-ukti tina-vāra
jaḍa loka bujhāite punaḥ ‘eva’-kāra
SYNONYMS
dārḍhya lāgi’-in the matter of emphasizing; harer nāma—of the holy name of Lord Hari; ukti—there is utterance; tina-vāra—three times; jaḍa loka—ordinary common people; bujhāite—just to make them understand; punaḥ—again; eva-kāra—the word eva, or “certainly.”
TRANSLATION
“THIS VERSE REPEATS THE WORD ‘EVA’ [‘CERTAINLY’] THREE TIMES FOR EMPHASIS, AND IT ALSO THREE TIMES REPEATS ‘HARER NĀMA’ [‘THE HOLY NAME OF THE LORD’], JUST TO MAKE COMMON PEOPLE UNDERSTAND.
PURPORT
TO EMPHASIZE SOMETHING TO AN ORDINARY PERSON, ONE MAY REPEAT IT THREE TIMES, JUST AS ONE MIGHT SAY, “YOU MUST DO THIS! YOU MUST DO THIS! YOU MUST DO THIS!” THUS THE BṚHAN-NĀRADĪYA PURĀṆA REPEATEDLY EMPHASIZES THE CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME SO THAT PEOPLE MAY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND THUS FREE THEMSELVES FROM THE CLUTCHES OF MĀYĀ. It is our practical experience in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world that many millions of people are factually coming to the spiritual stage of life simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra regularly, according to the prescribed principles. Therefore our request to all our students is that they daily chant at least sixteen rounds of this harer nāma mahā-mantra offenselessly, following the regulative principles. Thus their success will be assured without a doubt.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/adi/17/23
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Mayesvara das: The shape of the Earth is a very big deal, especially now since the Srimad-Bhagavatam’s version is to be presented to the rest of the world via the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium. The Earth described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is completely different from what we’ve been presented by the modern education system and media, and this obviously presents a very big challenge to the belief system of the devotee community who have grown-up believing (like everyone else) that we live on a globe-shaped planet. The description (or revelation) of the Earth contained in Srimad-Bhagavatam marks the beginning of a new spiritual paradigm, regarding our beliefs about the size, nature, and purpose of the Earth we live upon. But will the present generation of leaders of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness be willing or capable of making the transition from a belief system implanted by scientism (that the Earth is a small globe-shaped planet floating in space), to that offered by Srimad-Bhagavatam—that the Earth is an immense, vast circular plane, and that our own Earth area is surrounded by more lands and more oceans that have yet to be discovered? It will undoubtedly be a test of faith for many devotees.
Mahesh: Word jugglery.
Amar Puri:
Based on the above mentioned circumstances, HOW an intelligent, WISE person, can come to this conclusion as you ( Mayesvera dasa ) write as follows ;
” Śrīla Prabhupāda himself acknowledged his own limitations. Speaking of his difficultly in conceiving the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam’s description of the universe.”
ALSO, particularly, when Mayesvara dasa writes such as this ; ” Despite Srila Prabhupada’s unfamiliarity with all the details of Bhu-mandala, ….”
How can any body with the right mind can write like this ?
Mahesh: Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ, to consider guru as ordinary human being. That is nārakī:
And Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore says that this holy name of Kṛṣṇa is imported from Goloka Vṛndāvana. It is not material sound. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. It is not ordinary sound. Don’t take it as ordinary. Śabde-sāmānya buddhir hari-nāmni. That is nārakī-buddhi. Just like to consider the Deity as made of stone. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ, to consider guru as ordinary human being. Similarly, to think śabde-sāmānya buddhiḥ, the holy name of the Lord as ordinary sound vibration, that this… That is nārakī.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/sb/1/7/19/vrndavana/september/16/1976
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In this connection the Padma Purāṇa states, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ: “One who considers the arcā-mūrti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Viṣṇu, to be stone, the spiritual master to be an ordinary human being, and a Vaiṣṇava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of hellish intelligence.” One who follows such conclusions is doomed.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/adi/7/115
I would like to ask if these articles under discussion,… Mt Meru, Ananta Sesa etc, have been actually posted by Mayesvara das, or have they been copied by Prabhupadanugas Webmaster from another source eg Sampradaya Sun, and deposited here. His name doesn’t appear after the date in the top header.
You will note that after the articles are posted, there a no comments by the author Mayesvara das, just a plethora of well over 40 from regular commentator prabhus. This would seem to indicate Mayesvara das did not personally post, or has he just dumped this here and is sitting back and watching the scramble for the inconceivable (to me anyway) truth, which we can’t see in 2D, 3D or 20D anyway!
Yfs, Balaram das
Yes, good point Balaram Prabhu. Not sure myself as to the origin of the images! I just assumed they were rendered by Mayeshvara Das. (Well this just goes to show that one cannot ‘assume’ anything!).
The article “The Base of Mount Meru” is written by Mayesvara Dasa, and his name has been given below the title.
This particular article was taken from Sampradaya Sun, the main website where Mayesvara Prabhu posts all of his articles. The direct link to the article on the Sampradaya Sun has also been given. So there is no confusion.
Prabhupadanugas.eu posts different articles from different devotees and different websites as general information for the devotee community. One of our staff-members has copied this article from Sampradaya Sun and pasted it on the Prabhupadanugas website as article of interest. The article is just replicated with two extra photos or so. That’s it.
That Mayesvara Dasa is not responding to any comments is because he is not a commentator (member) on prabhupadanugas.eu.
Other articles are from other devotees, for example “The Gravity Hoax” is from Pariksit das, who is different from Mayesvara Dasa. They may share the same realisation about the thematic of Bhumandala, (and may share quotes) but they are separate and have nothing to do with each other. Other articles are just compiled by different staff-members of prabhupadanugas.eu. We are trying to give names and links whereever possible.
If you are interested to personally write to Mayesvara Dasa, than please contact Sampradaya Sun for his email.
Dear Webmaster prabhu, thanks for the explanation.
I am aware that the articles were written by Mayesvara das and originally posted in the ‘Sun’, however it was confusing if he himself had re-posted them on this forum, as the header at the very top just said ‘Prabhupada News’.
Yfs, Balaram das.