Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik system systematically explained.
The following exchange by Damaghosa dasa with a senior Prabhupada disciple clearly explains Srila Prabhupada’s arrangement for initiations [both first and second] as per Srila Prabhupada’s rtivk directive during Srila Prabhupada’s manifested presence in July of 1977. The original email exchange has been slightly edited for spelling, formatting, justification and references.
—–Original Message—–
From: dasdasdas <dasdasdas@aol.com
Sent: Sat, 28 May 2016 8:25 am
Subject: Re: your article
Hari bol …..Pranams, Thanks for your replies…
So, we can say so many things, but the bottom line, as always, is what did Srila Prabhupada want us to do to continue this movement? The so-called leaders did what they said was the right thing – but we have to judge everything by the results-which are a mess (karma phalena paricyate…) They still don’t understand guru tattva which is why they continually change their opinions almost yearly.
We say the only written and oral instructions given by His Grace Srila Prabhupada was that we initiate on his behalf. There is no other orders than those. If you have some contrary, clear evidence (not interpretations) then kindly produce it. There was no counter order after the July 9th letter and subsequent letters to that effect. When Satsvarupa asked on May 28th, what will happen in the future when you are no longer with us, he replied-ritvik.
I found it interesting in your previous reply that you at least put in the Madhva and Ramanuja sampradayas similar feelings on this matter in that they still consider these two Acaryas their guru. So, we can see from them, that this is possible and has been done. You also said since time immemorial nobody has ever taken disciples “posthumously.” I beg to differ with you prabhu. This term is not correct, for guru never dies, nor do we.
Two things–
First of all, in many conversations with SP on the topic of Christianity SP said Christians today could become Christians (and develop love for God) IF they followed Jesus’s teachings. So how does a Christian do that if Jesus does not in the present day, accept them as his disciples or followers?
Secondly, we have no thing in our movement as “tradition”. Sure, some things are traditional, but SP created and allowed so many things that were not in Vedic tradition. As you mentioned, he is a Saktevesh avatar, which means, he can do practically anything he wants to do-with or without following any tradition.
Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja did this by giving brahmana threads to those not born in brahmana families, riding in motor cars., going across the ocean, living in palaces, etc. So, this tradition thing is not a valid argument at all. You also said how do we know SP would accept present day disciples? That is easy -he never physically met most of his disciples yet relied upon the recommendations of his leaders for initiations. Same thing still applies today. Prospects are screened and tested, and if pass, then they can take initiation by a ritvik disciple on behalf of SP and become his disciples. This went on from 1972 until he left us in bodily form in 1977. You may also note that in SP’s will, he mentioned that only his initiated disciples could become trustees in the future. How is this possible without ritvik initiations since everybody has to die?
You think these words were chosen whimsically by Srila Prabhupada who was so careful about everything?
Bottom line is- if one does not accept this order to initiate on his behalf, then one must produce counter evidence to refute it. There was, as you well know, no such written or oral order. Especially at the end. If you have such evidence the world of devotees would love to see or hear it. (maybe those missing tapes?)
Srila Prabhupada: “They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point”
He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that “This man should be the next ācārya.” But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure. They never thought, “Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya?” They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya. Then another man came, then another, ācārya, another ācārya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, “Now I am soadvanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru.” Then he’s finished. (Aug 16 1976 Bombay)
Hare Krsna-hope you are well…
damaghosa das
ps-thanks for the juke box link..
Below are some quotes which establish how people in the future can have access to Srila Prabhupada or Jesus Christ and become disciples of either of them. As SP says, guru is not the body but the principle like relay monitoring in TV. To understand these principles requires one think out of the box (this body consciousness) and see how spirituality works. It is not difficult.
———–
Guest (3): Would you agree that Christ is the greatest master of all?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We accept him as our guru. (present tense understanding-not that he is dead and gone)
Guest (3): What is the…
Prabhupāda: Guru means prophet, yes.
Guest (3): What about a savior?
Prabhupāda: Savior? Who saves the followers from the danger of materialistic way of life, which means transmigration of the soul from one body to another. Sept 14 1969 London
Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot… They can’t… They don’t even have any disciplic succession. Their śāstra is… They can’t agree among them what is the concise śāstra, nor can they agree on what is the importance of accepting śāstra in the first place. They’re doing all sinful activities. So then… Then what is there to convince?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: So why not start an authoritative group of Christians who chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, who study the Bible and read the Bhagavad-gītā?
Acyutānanda: We are.
Prabhupāda: We are all Christians.
Acyutānanda: Here we are.
Pañcadraviḍa: We already are Christians.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But they are seeing us… They don’t accept that, though. If somebody was calling themselves Christians…
Prabhupāda: That… It is not possible that everyone will accept you. That is not possible. April 1 1974 Mayapur
Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places, similarly the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. Letter to Malati, 26th May 1968
In the absolute world there is no distinction as me, or he, and I. Krishna and His representative is the same. Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring. Letters: 68-05-28
Madhudviṣa: Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a spiritual master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing in the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?
Srila Prabhupāda: I don’t follow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus’s words, reach the…
Srila Prabhupāda: When you read Bible, you follow spiritual master. How can you say without? As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ, that means you are following spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without spiritual master?
Madhudviṣa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is not the question of… Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So, your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible,” when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. So, any case, you have to follow a spiritual master. There cannot be the question without spiritual master. Is that clear? https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/general/seattle/october/02/1968
—–Original Message—–
To: damaghosa das <dasdasdas@aol.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 May 2016 1:15 pm
Subject: Re: your article
pps.(a nice story) During Prabhupada’s time his assistant brought a plate of prasadam to PP’s room and started offering it to SPP’s picture “What are you doing ? ” PP said “I am sitting right here.” The Vapu Vani and Vigraha are in Acintya bhedabhed relation
On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM,
Part 2 (sorry ’bout the typos in part one)
As a preacher, writer and ‘kirtan man’ I regard sound vibration and vani more that Vapu or Vigraha. The best word is they are Nondifferent. The vigraha does not travel around the world or translate books and Srila Prabhupad did not sit silent on his vyasasana all day in temples.
Here’s my parody of the verse from CC: Kiva Ritvik kiva Iskcon Gaudiya kene nai, je Krishna tattva vetta sei guru hai
On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 2:38 PM,
I really don’t see much disagreement. I just feel uncomfortable when IRM devotees say “I was initiated BY Prabhupad in 1986” How do they know that Prabhupad accepted them?
If one must wait to initiate one’s own disciples during the spiritual master’s manifest time then Srila Prabhupada’s disappearence day, which we celebrate annually is a real event. If the ritvik can impart the transcendental vibration there is no difference…
It has been from time immemorial that no one has ever said they were initiated by a guru posthumously (tad vidhi pariprasnena paripatena sevaya—etc.)
STILL Srila Prabhupad is a sakti avesh, like Madhwa and Ramanuja acarya’s and those sampradaya’s call themselves disciples of Madhwa and Ramanuja and only formally will mention their current acarya.
I’m saying all this to increase ritvik or varma pradarshika or siksa guru to take more personal attention to the initiate, day to day progress and not just perform a yajna and go away
Tamal was walking with SP and asked “Can we learn just from reading your books?”
Srila Prabhupad tugged on Tamal’s ear and said “Book cannot do this.”
It is a good transcendental competition for devotees who did not have Prabhupad’s association to be equal and surpass in seva and realizations than those who knew him. (I’ve heard my godbrothers say “He was such a nice old man”) DUH!!!
On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:39 PM,
<dasdasdas@aol.com> wrote:
By …;…. (ACBSP)
…”Although rare, women have been accepted in our line as gurus. Srila Prabhupad said “In general the acaryas are men, because they should be seen as the eternal father.” A neophyte needs this VAPU of the spiritual master. Unlike the “ritvik” group that says, “Prabhupad is here now.” Yes, he is, but you are asking a complete newcomer to have the transcendental vision of a paramhamsa or Uttama-adhikari!!…”
Dear ….. das, Obeisances, All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Thank you for your article as I agreed with much of it. This paragraph you wrote I copied above, bothers me.
You say ….”Unlike the “ritvik” group that says, “Prabhupad is here now.” Yes, he is, but you are asking a complete newcomer to have the transcendental vision of a paramhamsa or Uttama-adhikari!!
What you call as the “ritviks” for convenience sake, do not say neophytes are asked to have a transcendental vision of a paramhamsa. First of all, only a pure devotee can understand another pure devotee, and Srila Prabhupada said that. From what I have seen, heard and read over the past 40 some years, none of us are even close to Uttama Adhikari status or even madhyama for that matter. Or as Brahmananda once told us, “we are all just a bunch of cats and dogs”, which is much closer to the truth.
Any newcomers “vision” of transcendence is going to be covered by the three modes of nature. How has your realizations changed over the years since when you first met Srila Prabhupada as Bhakta ……..?? And still now, as Prabhupada tells us, when you look at me, you see my body, when I look at you, I see your body. This is not panditah sama darshinah. Until and unless one comes to that level of realization, he or she is still on the bodily platform of consciousness.
You correctly state that Prabhupada is “here now”, that much is true, but how much we realize that truth is according to our surrender and realizations. Some parrot can squawk Prabhupada is here, Prabhupada is here, but where is his realization? Neophytes have practically no realization and follow others (if they are pious) until their intelligence is convinced. Back in 1965, nobody had a clue of what transcendence was, were probably still coming down from drugs, but loved the “Swami” so much that they followed him knowing somehow or other that this person was not an ordinary man. We all had different visions, or understandings of what a “guru” was back then and a lot of us had direct contact with Srila Prabhupada and he did things sometimes to us that blew our minds.
Prabhupada himself tells us that he is present in his murti and picture form. Yet we hear from people like Ravindra svarupa das that Srila Prabhupada- is dead and gone, and if you think he is still present, then write him a letter and see if he replies to you! The process of realization is completely based upon hearing the sound vibrations of great souls in a humble and submissive mood. So Prabhupada himself tells us he is present in his vapuh form, yet so many iskcon leaders say no, he is dead and gone and you need a physically “living” guru. There is nowhere in all of Srila Prabhupadas books where he makes such a statement. In fact, he says just the opposite-that the real presence of the guru is in his sound or vani because that is eternal whereas the vapuh or physical form is temporary. (Not his murti of course) I could give you volumes of quotes but will try to keep this brief…
Similarly, a spiritually perfect person and his photograph is the same. Because it is in the absolute stage
Woman: You say you worship the deity photograph of someone who has gone. But the photograph of a spiritual teacher can be very helpful to teach them to love him because the photograph of a spiritual master is not material value, but it symbolizes the truth from which he has come.
Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are spiritually advanced, their photograph and ordinary photograph is different. Just like here is a statue of Krishna. He’s not different from Krishna. The original person Krishna and this statue of Krishna is the same. Similarly, a spiritually perfect person and his photograph is the same. Because it is in the absolute stage. Lecture NY sept 16 1966-
So, is it the same, that the prasādam is accepted by the guru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Guru is nondifferent from Kṛṣṇa.
That is accepted by all the śāstra
Devotee (1):You said that if we made a marble image of you and offered food to it, you would not accept it. So…
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Brahmānanda: In your lecture you said that someone who offers food to a statue of yourself…
Prabhupāda: He is not statue, but people think statue. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. But because we cannot see Kṛṣṇa at the present moment, therefore He appears like a statue.
Brahmānanda: His question… You stated that a statue of yourself is not the same as you, and yet in some of our temples, such as Vṛndāvana, the mūrti of Your Divine Grace has been installed and they are offering prasādam. So, is it the same, that the prasādam is accepted by the guru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Guru is nondifferent from Kṛṣṇa. That is accepted by all the śāstra. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta śāstraiḥ. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ: ** “It is said,” tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, “and those who are advanced devotees, they accept it like that.” Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya: “But the guru’s position is the most confidential servant.” So, guru is the servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is the master God. Both of them are God, servant God and master God. Guru kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. So, we have to serve both the servant and the master. Through the servant, we go to the master. Any other question? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nairobi, October 27, 1975
So Prabhu, as you know, most of Prabhupadas disciples never physically met him. Yet they continued with their spiritual lives unaffected by this so-called lacking, as you may call it. It seems to me from what you write above, that your opinion is that if you (or any newcomers) had never personally met Srila Prabhupada then spiritual life would have been, for you (or them) very difficult, if not impossible. That is why you say the ritviks are expecting newcomers to have a transcendental vision of a paramhamsa without ever meeting him. This is not the correct understanding of Prabhupada siddhanta.
You say–“A neophyte needs this VAPU of the spiritual master.”
Here is actual fact/ proof:
VANI VS VAPUH
Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you. (Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)
But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So, we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection. (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)
So, we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. (Lectures SB, 68/08/18)
There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal. […] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57)
Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association – by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence. (CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)
Therefore, we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence. (Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)
I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not Physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja. (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)
It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life. (SB 3:31:48)
I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent. (Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)
Paramananda: We’re always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We’re always meditating on your instructions.
Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important. (Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)
You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me. That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is helping me by his spiritual blessings. So, there are two kinds of association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association. (Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)
As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc.,
then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on. (Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74)
‘Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him’. So, continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles. (Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)
So, although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living. (General lectures, 69/01/13)
Devotee: …so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks ‘How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?’Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words. (SB Lectures, 71/08/18)
Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action, he is there. To serve master’s word is more important than to serve physically. (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)
So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter. (Lectures SB 73/12/11)
So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place. (Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)
I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you. (Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)
We are not separated actually. There are two – Vani or Vapuh – so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same. (Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)
So, in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him. (Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)
I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master’s word is more important than to serve him physically. (Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70)
Even they cannot understand, if they hear the voice they will be benefitted.BG lect, Bhubaneshwar, jan 22 1977
Never think that I am absent from you. Physical presence is not essential; presence by message (or hearing) is real touch. Lord Krishna is present by His message which was delivered 5,000 years ago. We feel always the presence of our past Acaryas simply by their immutable instructions. I hope you will understand me right and do the needful. Letters 1976 Vrndavana Aug 2
In conclusion I would like to say this. I still listen today sometimes to your bhajans and find them some of the best ever done, simply because of their simplicity and clarity. I never personally met you, but have always held you in high regard due to your dedicated service to Srila Prabhupada.
Over the years my experience with the earliest devotees is that many did not have the time to thoroughly read (and re-read) the books and were impelled mostly to do service mostly on the merit of their physical association with Srila Prabhupada. Of course, you read the books and were a good preacher, and I did book distribution for years myself and read all the books several times over. But it was only after Prabhupada physically left (and all the problems started) that I began to re-read his books but this time with an eye to guru tattva in all my readings. When you are specifically looking for what he said about who is a guru and who is not and how we are to associate with the guru in general, THEN all the above quotes start to pop up and one’s realizations change dramatically. The physical form no longer holds so much prominence as the instructions. Both are important, but the words, the vani, lasts forever…and that, he says, is real association.
Hare Krsna prabhu- hope you are well and still singing….
damaghosa das
So, although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living. (General lectures, 69/01/13)
So, we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. (Lectures SB, 68/08/18)
The living Guru “physical spiritual master” and the process of diksha initiation
Please also see:
Ritvik System – system OF MANAGEMENT
Lord Jesus Christ orders ritvik system and condemns fake gurus
Yashoda Nandana Prabhu discusses on Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik system
Damaghosh Prabhu discusses on Srila Prabhupada and the Ritvik system in ISKCON
Srila Prabhupada’s established Ritvik System to be continued after His physical disappearance
The Ritvik System Is Bona fide
Why the Ritvik System is bonafide!
The solution to the ritvik debate
Prabhupāda: That… It is not possible that everyone will accept you. That is not possible. April 1 1974 Mayapur
Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places, similarly the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. Letter to Malati, 26th May 1968
In the absolute world there is no distinction as me, or he, and I. Krishna and His representative is the same. Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring. Letters: 68-05-28
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
So, why NOT follow Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI as it is.
Where is the problem ?
Where is the need to interpret the simple instructions of following ” Rtvik ” system by HDG. Srila Prabhupada ?
Only those who have self inflated ambition interpret to defy the instructions in order to fulfill their agenda. That is the only reason they defy. What else can be there more ? Simply they want to satisfy their personal ambition as Maharaja Dritrashtra, the King of the Kuru, did by defying the warning given to him by his Secretary Sanjay who narrated all the Instructions of Shri Krishna to Arjuna.
The difference is Shri Arjuna accepted the Lord’s Instructions whereas the King Dritrashtra totally defied it on account of his personal ambition. Shri Arjuna became victorious and the King and his entire family members lost everything.
The same is happening in the present Iskcon gurus’ management. They are all destined to lose not only the spiritual opportunity but heading also towards the most darkness of hell in their next life once their spiritual merits are exhausted in this life time.
As we have seen most of the fake gurus of Fiskcon died miserably and the others i.e. left over are on the brinks to die once their merits are consumed after satisfying their ambition of gratifying for name, fame and status. That is the reality. You touch the fire, the fire will burn you. It is that simple.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
By defying Srila Prabhupada, Anti Ritviks want to go to hell:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. THEN BOTH OF THEM WILL TO GO TO HELL, LIKE BLIND MEN LEADING THE BLIND.